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Arizona's immigration law

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Forum Name: US Immigration
Forum Description: Illegal Immigration into the USA
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Printed Date: 22 Apr 2019 at 06:58
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Topic: Arizona's immigration law
Posted By: Seko-
Subject: Arizona's immigration law
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2010 at 18:03
Arizona passed a state law which is set to take effect in late July or early August - would make it a crime under state law to be in the U.S. illegally. It directs state and local police to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/27/national/main6436027.shtml

Of course the taboo word, 'racial profiling' is a tool in the local authority's arsenal. However, under suspicion even gruff looking US citizens can be pulled over for questioning.

Why is it that all of a sudden the Republicans are yapping so much?
"This law is a response to the president's and the administration's failure to secure our borders," McCain told CBS' "The Early Show". "The federal government has a responsibility to secure the borders, they have not."

Get's me by the gourd! Republicans have had 8 years (6 for those thinking you wanna get smart with me) to do something about boarder security but they just sh*t their pants...till now. Now that a Democrat is in office they have decided to take action on this issue.

Eight years was a long time for doing nothing. Republicans did nothing about finance reform either. Lifting a finger against financial institutions is not in the playbook. Imagine that. I'm glad Obama gave GM a bailout too then took over control of the company. It made the fat cats get serious and turn a new leaf (not saying that GM learned anything in the long haul...but maybe, just maybe she will).


What do you think about Arizona?

Me, its politics at play. Aside from that, Arizona is their state and I respect their decision as long as it is legal. I wouldn't want to be an illegal over there right now though. Maybe this action will create progress on the whole issue of border control. On the other hand, the notion of profiling someone is so in vogue these days. We are being desensitized to growing gestapo-like methods. Not good. Nope, don't like it.




Replies:
Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2010 at 22:43
Republicans are the party of No. Just look at how they blocked financial reform. 2 years crying about how we weren't going after Wall Street. The senate gets their act together, and suddenly all of their rage against Wall Street goes away, and they are blocking the needed reform.

And where is the Tea bagger rage on this?


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2010 at 22:53
I give credit to the Democrats. I wouldn't have figured that Congress (though still lingering along party lines) can get their act together with a purpose for reform. Helps to have strong leadership that takes action. Pelosi still makes me cringe but she is a good yes man (woman) to Obama.

...but give the GOP time...afterall that is what they ask for. Time for the next election that is. brrr.


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2010 at 22:55
Almost forgot to ask, how is the weather in Muzhnopia?


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2010 at 23:06
Its already claiming its first victims:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6AradppFx4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6AradppFx4  (from 2:38 onwards).
 
Reminds me when a guy I know was asked by the police to prove he is the husband of his 7 month pregnant wife and was arrested for not carrying his marriage certificate with him.
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 00:50
That was quick. good video Al J.

According to Kristal (Crystal or whoever that talking head on the news is) only 13 people will be rounded up. Give me a break. It will be a daily occurrence especially if there will be police quotas to meet.

Warning! All Mexican-Americans living in Arizona - be sure to carry your Birth Certificate with you at all times!


Posted By: es_bih
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 01:08
And the Republicans still have balls to call Obama a Nazi after this? Seriously... if they haven't proven that they're the Party of racism then I don't know what else they need to pull... 




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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 02:14
Wait. It wasn't a crime before?


Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 03:55
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:



Why is it that all of a sudden the Republicans are yapping so much?
"This law is a response to the president's and the administration's failure to secure our borders," McCain told CBS' "The Early Show". "The federal government has a responsibility to secure the borders, they have not."

Get's me by the gourd! Republicans have had 8 years (6 for those thinking you wanna get smart with me) to do something about boarder security but they just sh*t their pants...till now. Now that a Democrat is in office they have decided to take action on this issue.


Believe me, they were sh*tting their pants before Obama took office. The primary problem for enforcement back then, as like now, was that they had George Bush for a President who equally dd not share in the same concerns as they do. Given that a portion of his family are of Hispanic in origin and having developed a unique perspective on this topic, leads me too wonder if he had not viewed this as one of paranoia by those who are screaming loudest for enforcement??? Perhaps the paranoia is now greater with Democrat's in control of the executive and legislative?

Anyways, i am starting to doubt the enforcing of any law is going to work as long as the conditions south of the border remain as they are?


Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 03:58
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

And the Republicans still have balls to call Obama a Nazi after this? Seriously... if they haven't proven that they're the Party of racism then I don't know what else they need to pull... 




The rhetoric is just politics. I would Just ignore it. No different really then when people called President Obama's  predecessor by the name of Bu$Hitler!


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 05:18
Quote Anyways, i am starting to doubt the enforcing of any law is going to work as long as the conditions south of the border remain as they are?
Yeah, a strong police presence and border control to stop drug, arms, and people trade between Mexico and the US would seem to be in everyone's interests. The Mexican army is already occupied in that region, but US deployments along the border would seem to be a good idea.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 05:19
Arizona is famous for just such behavior in the the "law enforcement" game? Have we so quickly forgotten the "tent jails" of one particular Arizona sheriff, not to mention his "reality" program on the nabbing of miscreants with open warrants?
 
Just chalk it up to the desert heat and its effects on brain cells.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 13:42
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote Anyways, i am starting to doubt the enforcing of any law is going to work as long as the conditions south of the border remain as they are?
Yeah, a strong police presence and border control to stop drug, arms, and people trade between Mexico and the US would seem to be in everyone's interests. The Mexican army is already occupied in that region, but US deployments along the border would seem to be a good idea.


Pretty much that seems like the best answer. we already have a strong presence of border guards in
Nogales as well as other key towns. I would think that the US army would get good training out of that border as well. It would give fresh grunts some experience before they get shipped off to Afghanistan.

Needless to say, profiling and such (which takes effect over the summer) is not the way to go. Also, Mexico is suggesting that her citizens do not fly over to Arizona. Imagine the loss in tourism, family and dollars to the local economies. can Arizona afford that?


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2010 at 16:25

Here in Saudi Arabia we have an enormous illegal immigration problem. Some 2 million of them (almost two thirds come from Yemen) currently live here (out of a population of 26 million) and trust me everything that the government tried failed.

We have no legal procedure as the US has, we just deport them strait away (there were citizens who were deported for not carrying documents when they were caught and the cause of their deportation, they had a Yemeni accent). Every citizen and resident has to have an electronic ID card and police check points are dotted across the country. Some times when you go on highways you would see a bus parked in the check point. Anyone who doesn't carry a document is thrown in it even if he has one. If he is legal he is fined heavily if not deported and illegals are of course deported:
http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=107196&d=26&m=2&y=2008 - http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=107196&d=26&m=2&y=2008
 
Private hospitals are by law banned from treating them and if they do the hospital may be closed (on the other hand malpractice is typically punished by a slap on te wrist) and employers of illegals may get everything confiscated.
 
Yet despite all these draconian measures still we have some 300k illegals crossing or overextending their visas every year:
http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=21130&d=16&m=12&y=2002 -  
http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=17481 - http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=17481
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/saudi-border-fence/2007/12/02/id/322293 - http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/saudi-border-fence/2007/12/02/id/322293
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2010 at 16:27
If the Roman Empire could not "control" its borders against "barbarians" seeking a better life, just how well will new draconian measures succeed at impeding "population transfers". Sooner or later even "guest workers" get ideas!Shocked

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 14:04
I am not going to Arizona. Hey, no one with a tan should go there either.

In any case, the GOP seems incapable of controlling itself when it comes to showing that they are the racists' party. Unfair to non-racist conservatives, but elected GOP officials insist on making racism the face of the GOP.

Well, good bye to GOP victories in the future:

Latinos are 25% of the population, and growing bigger. Soon, they will reach 30% of the population.

Attacking illegal immigrants is attacking the relatives and friends of many U.S. citizens. Also, the negative stereotyping that the GOP employs to rile up the racist base applies to all Latinos, legal or not legal. Many white people are oblivious about this, but Latinos who are the brunt of these campaigns know that that is the case.

For that matter, Middle Eastern people and Muslims know what I am talking about too. They too became a target for the GOP for the last 9 years. They know how the rants against "terrorists" also apply to them even though their family has lived in the U.S. for 3 generations, they are Christian and can't even speak Arabic.

The GOP lost California with proposition 184. None of the young people that I know at the time who were Latino will ever vote for a Republican under normal circumstances.

The GOP lost Latinos nationally with their 2005 anti-immigrant campaign. For God's sake, they lost Evangelical Central-American Hispanics, who have voted with GOP for a long time.

Now they are going to lose another generation! Heckava job, GOP!



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 15:11
Shall I play Advocate General--aka the Devil's Counsel?Evil Smile
 
Despite your appeal to Linda Rondstat and Joan Baez, Hugo, a sun-tan will hardly get you profiled in Arizona and much of this rhetoric is simply a tool in the advocacy racket by varied interest groups--from the SALAD crowd through the USCCB and finally "immigration" lawyers. Considering that the very manpower of the US Border Patrol in the Southwest is majority Hispanic the "argument from abuse" is rather hollow. Not that the chatterboxes now fixating on Arizona are not embarked upon their own version of stereotyping. There does exist a very dangerous criminal element that is making hay with the chaos in the nation's immigration system and the ineptitude of national politicians. One might even make a good posit by asserting that the political establishment since the 1960s has institutionalized Racism by making "race" a valid cognitive! In a way, one has to recognize that in situations such as this there will always be rats gnawing at the cheese from all sides.
 
The principal issues still remain:
 
1. The immigration process has to be standardized for the Americas in a manner that is both processive and equitable as a national responsibility.
 
2. The economic zones shaped by commercial policy since the 1990s demand equitable allocation of development funds and interactions so as to prevent the disruption of regional activities, and these must be enacted as promptly as possible.
 
4. Like it or not, the issue of "secure" borders is a vital one, and in a way the current travails of Arizona are a direct result of California's own actions along the Baja corridor! Ay chihuaha!
 
3. Dissemination of the notion that one national party rather than the other is "Latino" friendly does little more than acerbate the situation since it is false special interest politics. Spare the world such "liberal" cant since the very groups who flail against discrimination can be just as virulently clannish in this regard.
 
 


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 15:24
The US immigration policy is a joke, you simply cannot prevent people from moving from one part of the border to the other. Its too vast. The macho Republicanism ideal might sound great in a political rally, but they know just as well as anyone else that they are fighting a losing war. Better to just adopt comprehensive immigration reform, offer an amnesty, and start over again. Engage in a little realpolitick, please!

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Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 16:18
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

The US immigration policy is a joke, you simply cannot prevent people from moving from one part of the border to the other. Its too vast. The macho Republicanism ideal might sound great in a political rally, but they know just as well as anyone else that they are fighting a losing war. Better to just adopt comprehensive immigration reform, offer an amnesty, and start over again. Engage in a little realpolitick, please!
 
I take issue with the above since it is a stark misrepresentation of the problem. The people that have long resided within the "border region" (the 150 mile perimeter on each side) are not the problem. They have crossed freely for generations--I myself am among them--and they themselves recognize that not only drugs but also human trafficking has seriously disrupted the traditional. Let us be frank. For over a decade, the population influx has come not from the border region but from hundreds of miles away and reaching deep into Central America. In this regard, "amnesty" is not realpolitik but a repetition of past mistakes. In a way, the problems of California (and now Arizona) are not those of either New Mexico or Texas. With full irony I can utter "Thank you, Ronald Reagan!"--wouldn't you know it an Irishman lies at the root of the problemEvil Smile!


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 16:35

If the US wants to solve the illegal migration problem is should force the mexican government to actually take care of those states which border the US or else the US will cross and kill or capture drug cartel members.

In my opinion the Mexican government deliberately ignores those states because its cheaper for them and in any case the US is up there and its huge economy has a massive demand for cheape labour that earns over there much more than in Mexico. A classic case of outsourcing their own problems to the US.
 
Yemen does exactly the same to us. The regions bordering Saudi Arabia are the least serviced and poorest among Yemeni provinces. It reached to a point that Saudi Arabia built hospitals and schools (and payed their staffs) in the border regions on the Yemeni side to stop migration but it didn't.
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2010 at 17:16
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

The US immigration policy is a joke, you simply cannot prevent people from moving from one part of the border to the other. Its too vast. The macho Republicanism ideal might sound great in a political rally, but they know just as well as anyone else that they are fighting a losing war. Better to just adopt comprehensive immigration reform, offer an amnesty, and start over again. Engage in a little realpolitick, please!
 
I take issue with the above since it is a stark misrepresentation of the problem. The people that have long resided within the "border region" (the 150 mile perimeter on each side) are not the problem. They have crossed freely for generations--I myself am among them--and they themselves recognize that not only drugs but also human trafficking has seriously disrupted the traditional. Let us be frank. For over a decade, the population influx has come not from the border region but from hundreds of miles away and reaching deep into Central America. In this regard, "amnesty" is not realpolitik but a repetition of past mistakes. In a way, the problems of California (and now Arizona) are not those of either New Mexico or Texas. With full irony I can utter "Thank you, Ronald Reagan!"--wouldn't you know it an Irishman lies at the root of the problemEvil Smile!


I am aware of the complexities of Hispanic communities along the border with Mexico (George Bush has a Hispanic branch on his impeccably white family tree!)

Do you not think amnesty is the most logical solution? I don't see how America can conceivably guard a vast border, deport millions of people, and not ruin its economy in the process. Like it or not, those migrants are your economic future. I take it you are of the retiree generation - well your children won't get it so easy. Someone will have to pay their taxes in order for them to live off social security I'm afraid.


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http://xkcd.com/15/



Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 01 May 2010 at 03:02
The scions of Prescott Bush impeccable? Now that supposition is highly debatable since from my end of the ancestral tree nothing good can flow down from the Ohio RiverEvil Smile...and I have forgotten more about Texas history than ex-president Bush--either one--ever knew!
 
As for amnesty, have you forgotten that this vehicle was supposed to have "solved" the problem a generation ago? One might simply retort here--been there, done that! The problem is a simple one: the laws and processes are already there (as byzantine as they might appear as a result of certain privileged classifications), what is absent is the will to enforce and conform on the federal and diplomatic levels.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 02 May 2010 at 14:34
america can seal it border if it wants to, but it is to busy on forward projection type forces that can go anywhere and blow anything up that it has neglected the basics in border protection.

who want to clamp down on illegals? capitalists love them.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 02 May 2010 at 16:28
Originally posted by Leonidas Leonidas wrote:

america can seal it border if it wants to, but it is to busy on forward projection type forces that can go anywhere and blow anything up that it has neglected the basics in border protection.

who want to clamp down on illegals? capitalists love them.
 
Must be so, if the official stance of the Democratic Party as voiced by the Congressional leadership is a measure. Here is their "new" version of Immigration Reform:
 
1: Feigned militarization of the border (hey, folks, marshalling all aspects of the enforcement arms within the Department of Homeland Security can not be described as anything else short of deployment of the National Guard [they're saving that for Chicago!Evil Smile]
 
2. The Social Security Card as a national ID! Chuck the restrictions put in place back in 1934 and make all work a function of legal residency and/or citizenship. Legal "aliens" have green cards tied to an SS number and all citizens must now march to the local SS office for fingerprinting and the issuance of new "forge-proof" documents a bit more durable than the present flimsy little low quality paper puffery. Just think of it as a stimulus for new employment opportunities--imagine the federal man-power required to process nearly the entire nation!
 
I am quite sure that all of the participants in the May Day melees did not quite have these expedients in mind as the proper response to the Arizona initiative.
 
 


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 02 May 2010 at 23:55
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/04/29/2010-04-29_arizona_sheriff_clarence_dupnik_refuses_to_enforce_states_new_racist_immigration.html - http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/04/29/2010-04-29_arizona_sheriff_clarence_dupnik_refuses_to_enforce_states_new_racist_immigration.html
 
One police cheif refuses to enforce the law.


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 03 May 2010 at 13:33
I sympathise with the worries of the Arizonians (?), but the new law is leaky as hell. They'll be forced to drop it after a few court battles.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 03 May 2010 at 23:19
The failure of Congress to address the issue is what caused AZ to "do something."  The governor and the A.G. of that state understand that immigration is a Federal issue, but if the Federal government, and the Congress that funds it, will not do anything, a state on the front line off illegal immigration may force some action.
 
The state law is probably unconstitutional on several levels, but if that is the way to get the attention of Washington, D.C. pork-hounds, that is what to do.
 
Once inside that Beltway, members of Congress often lose interest in the concerns of their constituents.  It is more fun to play Congressional politics and to get on TV with the president.
 
 


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 02:31
Pike,

This is just pandering to the tea baggers. Most of those people in Arizona understand that they can't survive without the market that illegal immigration creates for the state and without its labor.

This law is an attempt to rile up the crazy tea party members so that they will vote in November since all of the hate on the health care bill went away as soon as they saw that their medicare now covers the prescription donut hole.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 03:54
Hugo, the "tea baggers" are a media phenomenon given unmerited proportions by a public press that feeds off of frenzy--usually promoted by the media itself. Tea-baggers like the anti-abortion picketers are the spawn of the visual media and to be blunt I would guess that the vast majority of the voting electorate would not risk a sunburn or a headache for any "cause" advocacy. Sometimes general apathy in the American mainstream is worthy of praise!Evil Smile  As for the "tea baggers" themselves, any organization that charges "fees" and "registrations" for their events are hardly to be feared. Look upon them as another phenomenon akin to those pesky political recordings that always take up valuable space on one's telephone answering machines.
 
Now, as to the "unconstitutionality" of the Arizona law requiring "papers" from people apprehended in the commission of a felony such would be difficult to assert, Pike, since state police powers already have a wide latitude here. In Florida, the federal government long ago abdicated any initiating role to the state's criminal justice system. We will not go into the implications raised by "identity theft" laws that now run the gamut nationwide. Of course, Arizona legislators really mucked matters up and made any potential day laborer hanging around a temp agency subject to arrest, but hey only hack lawyers attempting an all encompassing solution to breathing could dream up such a weird "cover all bases" strategy.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 18:11
drgonzaga,

The tea baggers may have been astro turf to begin with, but they really exists. I have seen them in Washington and my wife knows people to are tea baggers.

And they are the base an the heart of the modern Republican Party, now that all of the sane members are running away from the loony bin that the party has become. So they must keep these people angry, and laws like this are design to do that.

We have some movement like that in Virginia too. Our attorney general, a GOP nutcase, decided to make and hand out new Virginia seal lapel pins using the seal that the state used when it was part of the Confederacy . Now every sane person will complain about that, and that will hurt the little tender heart of the right-wing radicals.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 18:51
Right wing, left wing and common sense be damned hardly makes for healthy politics. If there is a malaise in American politics it is the emphasis the Media places on the fringes at the expense of the rational voters who long ago left both parties and decide issues in terms of their own immediacy. Now the danger to any electoral system would be the growing realization by an informed majority of powerlessness at crucial junctures, specially if the situation involves economic well-being. However, I doubt that AG Cuccinelli's fervor over seals had anything to do with the Confederacy given the fact that the seal designed by George Wythe in 1776 remained the official seal of the state during the Civil War and what had Cuccinelli in a tizzy was the goddess Virtus' left teat! Those damned Romans had to spice up their Amazons.
 
 
In fact, the only thing that happened in 1861 was a change in the state flag, where the above seal replaced the star that had been on the state standard. Of course, any rational American would look upon the antics of this AG as factual proof of the deletorious effects of lax immigration policies on the body politics! FGS I doubt that surname is enshrined among the FFVs of the Eastern ShoreEvil Smile


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 06 May 2010 at 11:47

Leonidas sounds an appropriate note.

The 'illegal immigrant problem' will not go away as long as it provides a continuation of America's historic dependency on cheap imported labour. An effective Arizona law would have jailed anyone responsible for giving work to an illegal immigrant.



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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 00:13
It's either a misdemeanor or felony depending, on how many illegals are involved. Thus its a crime for anyone regardless of citizenship to shelter, hire from a vehicle (johns looking for prostitutes would be the analogy here), or transport an illegal alien.




Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 11:16
Making it a crime is one thing. Actually jailing people for it is another.
 
The law sounds tough enough - http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/AidAbetUnlawfulSec8USC1324.html - http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/AidAbetUnlawfulSec8USC1324.html
but if there are that many illegals around, how come there aren't just as many people in jail for helping them?


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 13:46
...the law doesn't kick in till the end of July

A few local police want nothing to do with it. They say it is not part of their job description to round up aliens or Americans who use 'em for cheap labor.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 14:39
I was quoting the federal law, which has been around since the '80s or so, hasn't it?
 
The police must have a funny job description if it doesn't include arresting people who have broken / are breaking the law.
 
What do they plead - Marshall's opinion in Marbury vs Madison?


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 16:51
Here's some links:

http://current.com/news/92397919_arizona-police-officers-we-wont-profile-and-john-mccain-conveniently-did-not-take-a-position.htm

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1986080,00.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+time%2Fnation+%28TIME%3A+Top+Nation+Stories%29

http://web.mac.com/waltermoore/WalterMooreSays.com/Blog/Entries/2010/4/30_Arizona_Police_Can_Enforce_Federal_Immigration_Law.html

http://article.wn.com/view/2010/05/01/Arizona_police_chief_criticizes_immigration_law/


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 10 May 2010 at 00:13
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Right wing, left wing and common sense be damned hardly makes for healthy politics. If there is a malaise in American politics it is the emphasis the Media places on the fringes at the expense of the rational voters who long ago left both parties and decide issues in terms of their own immediacy. Now the danger to any electoral system would be the growing realization by an informed majority of powerlessness at crucial junctures, specially if the situation involves economic well-being. However, I doubt that AG Cuccinelli's fervor over seals had anything to do with the Confederacy given the fact that the seal designed by George Wythe in 1776 remained the official seal of the state during the Civil War and what had Cuccinelli in a tizzy was the goddess Virtus' left teat! Those damned Romans had to spice up their Amazons.
 

[IMG=http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/369532752_39c7215dd3.jpg]http://images.sodahead.com/blogs/000312807/virginia-state-seal-12902935826_xlarge.jpeg[/IMG]

 

In fact, the only thing that happened in 1861 was a change in the state flag, where the above seal replaced the star that had been on the state standard. Of course, any rational American would look upon the antics of this AG as factual proof of the deletorious effects of lax immigration policies on the body politics! FGS I doubt that surname is enshrined among the FFVs of the Eastern ShoreEvil Smile


Oh, Dear Doctor G. your research missed this time. Here is the confederate seal. Look at how modestly the Goddess looks. The older seal, with the boobage in it, is older than the confederate one, true, but then you couldn't make your veil I love the confederacy statements with that one, would you?



Posted By: es_bih
Date Posted: 10 May 2010 at 05:06
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

The US immigration policy is a joke, you simply cannot prevent people from moving from one part of the border to the other. Its too vast. The macho Republicanism ideal might sound great in a political rally, but they know just as well as anyone else that they are fighting a losing war. Better to just adopt comprehensive immigration reform, offer an amnesty, and start over again. Engage in a little realpolitick, please!

GOP and realpolitik? Common now... denial works much better ... plus they and their contributors benefit too much from the cheap labor. 


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http://postimage.org/" rel="nofollow - adult photo sharing


Posted By: es_bih
Date Posted: 10 May 2010 at 05:10
Originally posted by hugoestr hugoestr wrote:

Pike,

This is just pandering to the tea baggers. Most of those people in Arizona understand that they can't survive without the market that illegal immigration creates for the state and without its labor.

This law is an attempt to rile up the crazy tea party members so that they will vote in November since all of the hate on the health care bill went away as soon as they saw that their medicare now covers the prescription donut hole.

Good point 


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http://postimage.org/" rel="nofollow - adult photo sharing


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 10 May 2010 at 15:26
Not so fast, dear Hugo, the standard you chose as your illustration may be "Bowdlerized" but the imagery is not the official seal of the state since the original pressing of 1776 was never changed. How others chose to portray Virtus was, naturally, arbitrary; however, your little standard is actually a flagrant violation of the 1849 Code of Virginia [the governing legislation throughout the Civil War], which details to a Teat the official design.
 
Anyway, we are straying far from point with regard to what makes Attorney General Cuccinelli tick and it most certainly is not History.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 10 May 2010 at 19:10
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Not so fast, dear Hugo, the standard you chose as your illustration may be "Bowdlerized" but the imagery is not the official seal of the state since the original pressing of 1776 was never changed. How others chose to portray Virtus was, naturally, arbitrary; however, your little standard is actually a flagrant violation of the 1849 Code of Virginia [the governing legislation throughout the Civil War], which details to a Teat the official design.
 

Anyway, we are straying far from point with regard to what makes Attorney General Cuccinelli tick and it most certainly is not History.


Dr. G, you are right, the oldest seal is the one that you showed up, but this violation of the seal happened during the Civil War, and that is the one image that which Cuccinelli decide to use.

So you can tell our crazy Attorney General that he is in violation of the law. He may even sue himself for it. He is nuts, so it may happen .

I think that the Arizona law is a big mistake for the GOP. Hey, they already got most adult Latinos hating them, so now they can go with the younger ones who missed the 2005 hate-fest.

What I would actually want to see is where is the positive proposals of the GOP. The GOP today look like the Marxists did in Mexico in 1992: full of negative criticism and advocating a failed platform.

And if Leninist and Mao Marxists were/are fools for advancing a plan that history proved a failure, so are the right-wingers who keep advocating radical neoliberalism.

Both fringes can't face reality.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 06:44
I see no problem with Arizona choosing to enforce Federal immigration laws.Should the United States ever decide that strictly enforcing such laws is in their best interest, they will find the power to shut the border down to the point that (mostly) only legal immigrants get across. At that time, I suspect the the effects of its enforcement will force a re-look of our current immigration laws. The bottom line is that immigration laws that are not enforced are worse than no laws at all. It seems that we never deal with anything until decades after it has become a crisis. 

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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 10:34
Well, perhaps I too will be hated by the Latinos, adult or otherwise, since I find the term itself insulting! We've had this go-round before over this bit of Frenchified puffery from the 19th century and just its usage should be indicative of a deep desire to obscure the exact nature of the problem and its sources. As for those illiterati calling themselves Republicans, please they are just old line "democrats" who've had an epiphany!
 
The situation is such that someone does have to provide border security and enforce legal identity within the national territory. That the Federal government has failed in this responsibility pursuant to early 20th century legislation simply means that someone has to fill the vacuum and at least "take notice" of the who and in what numbers.
 
Now, remind me again about the original purpose for documenting "aliens"....


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 16:19
Gent's I don't think anyone in their right mind is suggesting less border security. The issue is profiling those already in the US. 


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 19:03
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Now, remind me again about the original purpose for documenting "aliens"....
   
Ermm  So that they couldn't be impressed by the Royal Navy? Smile
 
 


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 02:19
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Gent's I don't think anyone in their right mind is suggesting less border security. The issue is profiling those already in the US. 
 
Ooh, nasty word "profiling", no matter that such is an elementary task in criminology and law enforcement has need of such tools. Let's go after the Census Bureau and their "race questions"Evil Smile...Honestly, Seko, only someone actually unfamiliar with US and Mexican border regions (its actual residents and generational links) would be able to determine the difference betwee Nortenos (be they in Texas or Coahuila). They are both gueros...
 
 


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 02:42
Even though profiling is Police Academy material, hence elementary it surely is not intended to mistakenly affect legal Mexican-American citizens now is it?  This gueros wants to know the difference between Nortenos and Surenos sitting on a bench.  


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 03:11
OK, Hermano Seco, the one with the Cowboy hat, western shirt, bolo tie, and western boots is the Norteno. OK, he's in work clothes. Is he drinking Tecate beer and humming some polka style songs that might have an accordion in the background? Norteno. OK, five feet maybe five feet four, stocky, dark, with a wife that braids her two plaits together from behind? Indio Sureno. Real short dark, Indio guys speaking one of the many Mayan dialects (Heard something like that recently here in Tampa). Definitely not a Mexican unless he's from the Yucatan or Chiapas. Finally, wearing a Red body suit and funny antennas and prone to expressions like: No contaban con mis astucias! Do not approach under any conditions: It's El Chapulin Colorado! (The international outcry would be more than this country could take.)

Doc, I've seen my share of dark Nortenos in places like Sinaloa, but they fit that first profile to a tee. As you know, one of my missions in life is to explain to Anglo-Tejanos the reasons they are really Nortenos. The only difference is that they speak English (of a sort) and live on this side of the border.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 03:19
GCLE, the Royal Navy certainly impressed me. They served real beer with their meals. However I wzs no so impressed that I allowed them to subject me to empressment, but then Jefferson is supposed to have taken care of that. (Good thing Vicky wasn't yet Empress of India, or it really could have got confusing.)

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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 13:46
lirelou, I thoroughly enjoyed that explanation. Really! Smile You and Doc could be our gatekeepers to alien identification. 


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 14:33
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Well, perhaps I too will be hated by the Latinos, adult or otherwise, since I find the term itself insulting! We've had this go-round before over this bit of Frenchified puffery from the 19th century and just its usage should be indicative of a deep desire to obscure the exact nature of the problem and its sources. As for those illiterati calling themselves Republicans, please they are just old line "democrats" who've had an epiphany!


Dr. G., The old Democrats who became Republicans didn't have an epiphany: they had a stroke.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 15:32
I'm biting my tongue here but I just do not have the time since I am in the midst of setting up my brand new computer desktop (have to help the economic recovery somehow) and despite all the claims of a simplified tech and the smooth flow of Windows 7, HELL! The Dolby 5.1 digital surround,  multi speaker sounds system, the 36" touch screen monitor with HD capacity, and the 1 terrabyte hard drive chock full of software and programs I do not want (with the added headache of putting in the software I do want) is taking up all of my time this week. I will be relatively silent until I am ready to blast everyone to pulp on Mafia Wars! Hey, has anyone thought up a new game with the potential to earn the name Coyote! With a yellow brick road winding its way from the steamy Peten to the dry deserts of San Carlos Arizona!?!

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 16:48
Doc, how about joining Hugo, I and the gang in Risk instead? Ask Hugo for more details. 


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 17:00
Yes, Doctor G.

You got to use your new computing power for it was meant for. No, I am not talking about porn (Well, I guess you could use it that way, but that is your problem): I am talking about games.

As you already know, AE is nothing put the front for an elaborate number of cliques. One of them is the RISK playing clique that plays online Risk.

I will send you a PM with more info.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 17:50
Seko, Years of living and working in Latin America, in every country but Chile, after getting degrees in LATAM History and Spanish Civil Law from Spanish speaking universities, has to count for something. It is a fascinating region with many cultural and racial variations, but it is also a cesspool for many of those at the bottom of the socio-economic scale. Unfortunately, despite all their positive characteristics, it is precisely that group which finds it hardest to get in. I think the Doc has posted enough to show that he doesn't particularly like our present immigration laws, and neither do I, but they are the law of the land for now, and I'm not putting any money on Obama to change them. 

As for profiling, it makes sense to me. But then, I got stopped and held by the Spanish Guardia Civil for a few hours questioning one day merely because my name is Irish. I had the bad luck of flying into San Sebastian the same day a Libyan flagged ship was found to be carrying arms for the IRA in the harbor. They Guardia were just doing their job, under very difficult conditions, and I suspect that those guarding our present border with Mexico are under similar stress.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 19:03
Like I said you would make a good border guard. You have a magnificent background there lirelou. One that is respected.

As for Obama changing the laws, I suppose there are a lot of things he should do ever since Bush and McCain sat on their rears for 8 years.

As for Border Patrol. More power to them. No disagreement from me. Yet what does that have to do with picking up a Mexican-American in Flagstaff?


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 13 May 2010 at 20:12
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

GCLE, the Royal Navy certainly impressed me. They served real beer with their meals. However I wzs no so impressed that I allowed them to subject me to empressment, but then Jefferson is supposed to have taken care of that. (Good thing Vicky wasn't yet Empress of India, or it really could have got confusing.)
 
Hmm...
 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+impressment&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+impressment&btnG=Search
 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+empressment&btnG=Search - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+empressment&btnG=Search


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 15 May 2010 at 04:58
GCLE, Lo, I must hang my head in shame. (What the hell happened to my 'google'?) Pardon me while I abase myself.

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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 15 May 2010 at 16:21
The Royal Navy hasn't "impressed" anyone for quite a long time...there are a lot of Limeys fondly looking upon the good old days of Maggie ThatcherEvil Smile...
 
OK... Off topic but then Arizona will crop back up shortly when we discuss "ethnic" studies!
 
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/13/arizona-law-curbs-ethnic-studies-classes/ - http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/13/arizona-law-curbs-ethnic-studies-classes/
 

"One of the functions of the public schools is to take kids of different backgrounds and teach them to treat each other as individuals. And this ethnic studies program does the opposite. It divides kids up by race."

Tom Horne, Superintendent of Arizona Public Schools


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 15 May 2010 at 18:49
Well you did ask for the original purpose in documenting aliens.
As a matter of interest, all the Americans that tok part in the Revolution were aliens originally, no? When did they stop being aliens and become citizens? The constitution implies that they were citizens before the constitution was adopted. ("No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; ...")
 
Chicken and egg?


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 16 May 2010 at 14:38
Let us turn to a blatant reality with regard to immigration, the United States and Mexico. Since the enactment of the Patriot Act, not even the U.S. Embassy in Mexico Ciy processes Immigrant Visas from Mexico to the United States. This important paperwork is the sole purview of United States Consulate in Ciudad Juarez--a similar situation also prevails elsewhere, for example in years past you could obtain immigrant visas to the US in the various consulates, now it can only be done at the London embassy--and this funneling carries its own consequence, but the most obvious is the "frustrating" of the application process.
 
http://merida.usconsulate.gov/merida/immigrantvisas.html - http://merida.usconsulate.gov/merida/immigrantvisas.html
 
One can note that for the wealthy such is but a minor inconvenience (and there are other means available that side-step this process), hence the system is now prejudiced to frustrate any population movement in any but the most miniscule number. Thus, the operative assumption with regard to a Mexican national absent documentation processed at Ciudad Juarez (or the earlier resident alien document issued prior to 1996) is illegal status and subject to immediate deportation. Yes, we can all blather on about Arizona's quirkiness here but Houston's Detention Center is operating at full capacity:
 
http://www.ice.gov/pi/dro/facilities/houston.htm#where - http://www.ice.gov/pi/dro/facilities/houston.htm#where
 
In fact, Texas operates the largest number of detention centers along the border:
 
ICE facilities--El Paso, Los Fresnos
Contracted sites--Houston, Laredo
 
In addition, ICE has long contracted with county detention facilities for the "internment" of illegal immigrants and the subsidy extended these most certainly promotes the ascertainig of immigration status by non-federal officials.
 
I guess, what I am saying here is let us foreswear from hypocrisy here as far as Arizona is concerned and admit that this state is simply reacting to the more stringent controls prevalent in border states such as California and Texas no matter the ridiculous rhetoric from Governor Terminator!
 
By the way, the All-American Canal System "spared" California the added expense of border control although now, activists want to install "safety features" so that individuals may safely swim across its rapid current and depth.
 
http://www.usbr.gov/projects/Project.jsp?proj_Name=BoulderCanyonProject-All-AmericanCanalSystem&pageType=ProjectPage - http://www.usbr.gov/projects/Project.jsp?proj_Name=BoulderCanyonProject-All-AmericanCanalSystem&pageType=ProjectPage
 
http://www.usbr.gov/projects/Project.jsp?proj_Name=Boulder - http://www.usbr.gov/projects/Project.jsp?proj_Name=Boulder Canyon Project  - All-American Canal System&pageType=ProjectPage
 
http://www.usbr.gov/projects/Project.jsp?proj_Name=BCP%20-%20Coachella%20Canal%20Rehabilitation%20and%20Betterment&pageType=ProjectDataPage - http://www.usbr.gov/projects/Project.jsp?proj_Name=BCP%20-%20Coachella%20Canal%20Rehabilitation%20and%20Betterment&pageType=ProjectDataPage http://www.usbr.gov/projects/Project.jsp?proj_Name=BCP%20-%20Coachella%20Canal%20Rehabilitation%20and%20Betterment&pageType=ProjectDataPage -
 
http://www.mydesert.com/article/20100503/NEWS01/100503014/60-Minutes-calls-All-American-Canal-the-deadliest-body-of-water-in-the-U.S - http://www.mydesert.com/article/20100503/NEWS01/100503014/60-Minutes-calls-All-American-Canal-the-deadliest-body-of-water-in-the-U.S .
 
Heck, the issue is a blogger's dream come true!
 
http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/ - http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 17 May 2010 at 13:44
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The Royal Navy hasn't "impressed" anyone for quite a long time...there are a lot of Limeys fondly looking upon the good old days of Maggie ThatcherEvil Smile...
 

OK... Off topic but then Arizona will crop back up shortly when we discuss "ethnic" studies!

 

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/13/arizona-law-curbs-ethnic-studies-classes/ - http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/13/arizona-law-curbs-ethnic-studies-classes/

 


"One of the functions of the public schools is to take kids of different backgrounds and teach them to treat each other as individuals. And this ethnic studies program does the opposite. It divides kids up by race."


Tom Horne, Superintendent of Arizona Public Schools


That is so bogus.

Ethnic studies is just like classics, but specialized on a specific ethnic group. You, of all people, Dr. G, should know this!

Besides, it is not believable that the same law that divides Arizonians into those who have to carry proof of citizenship and those who don't claiming that they want to end the Mexican American Studies program because suddenly they are so worried about integrating everyone.


This is white supremacist agenda becoming mainstreamed in the GOP.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 17 May 2010 at 22:38
Ah dear Hugo, we are not discussing Ethnic Studies in the ivied halls of Academe but what is presented in high school curriculums, not only in Arizona but nationwide. I've "pulped" so much of the published junk that flows through Houston's public library system that I consider the publication of such garbage a definite threat to the Amazonian rain forest! Presenting the utterances of Jose Vasconcelos from the early 20th century in a 21st century American setting is not only pernicious but in a perverse way also represents the furtherance of Racism in a most unique way. However, in this sense "ethnic" whatever is really a particular battlefield in the School Board Clashes and actually symptomatic of the diseases spread by Schools of Education still fighting the 60s Culture Wars. Presenting the Zoot Suit as the apex of Chicano Culture is both demeaning and insulting and any educated "Latino" would wince, but then it is but a repetition of the artificial fancies that brought us Kwanza and Gangsta Rap as "cultural" expression.
 
Yes, this is a loaded topic where even the most altruistic would be shot dead in the crossfire between the truly committed (and commitable) at each extreme; however, since you have raised the issue just what does constitute "Mexican American Studies"? Certainly, Cesar Chavez can be discussed as an emblematic figure in the American Labor Movement and its history, but hey what does Mexico have to do with it? Chavez was an American story and not some ethnic side show!
 
Now you know just how grumpy the old Doc can get when the matter touches upon the subversion of Inclusion and Integration for the sake of a separatist mentailty.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 18 May 2010 at 01:39
LOL  Mean Doctor G




Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 18 May 2010 at 15:48
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

LOL  Mean Doctor G


 
I could even go one step further and move into the realm of the sadistic by asking for an example of an "ethnic" Mexican! Need I drag out the great fraud perpetrated by one Carlos Castaneda and the pompous pissants of UCLA and their passing fantasy for fact!?! How about this actual fact: the original Texanos were all Canary Islanders! Are they African Americans?


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 18 May 2010 at 16:34
Add my name to the 'mean' list. Ethnic studies have no place at the High School level. First, there are more important life skills (v.g. English composition, Algebra, etc) that need the time, and secondly, the only ethnicity that High School students need to associate themselves is the 'US of A' ethnicity. They need to be educated to succeed within the national economy,

The real problem with ethnic studies is: Who is to research and write all the class materials? Who is to ensure that the materials presented are fair and balanced? Who will the fact checkers be? Who will decide the political questions? (i.e., which of competing, often antagonistic views will prevail?)  In essence, ethnic studies are a mine field for any High School. Teenagers don't need to be programmed to feel that they are ethnically superior to others, or that they will be victims merely because of their ethnicity. That 'education' belongs back in the lands and historical period that their ancestors came from. Ergo, ethnic studies are better left to Institutions of Higher Learning, where any time you feel is wasted is your own fault, and not the School Boards.

ps: In case you think this is a non-White problem, read a little of Seumas MacManus' History of the Irish Race.  The Irish were a noble race of Poets, Warriors, and scholars, and everything evil that ever happened to them was the fault of those damned English.




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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 18 May 2010 at 17:07
Hi, Mean Dr. G. ,

Again, for an anthropologist, you should know better . Bring out Castaneda. He probably did peyote, and imagined everything else. Vasconcelos was a racist who hated everyone from everywhere.

Mexican-American Studies would be the same as Irish-American Studies, or Scots-American Studies, or Scandinavian-American Studies: the experience of these people in the U.S. Learning history has never hurt anyone. Otherwise we are all here in the process of hurting one another badly.

Teenagers are not going to learn to feel victimized in a class that last one or two hours a week. They will learn to feel victimize if they are the subject of racism in society, via laws that force them to carry your citizenship documents with you all the time.

If a community, such as the one that has hosted the Mexican American Studies classes, wants to have these classes, they should be free to have them. If parents in Minnesota want to have Scandinavian-American Studies classes, they should have them.

If the society makes it easy to integrate, people will integrate because you will make more money that way. It is that simple.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 18 May 2010 at 19:01
ROTFLMAO! Perhaps we should also include Italian-American Studies or How the Mafia founded Las Vegas!Evil Smile One should have pride in whom one is and not some sub-group abstraction. As matters stand, everyone today is required to have some form of "valid" identification issued by a state organ in order to engage in the basic activities of daily life! Have you tried opening a bank account of late? So, in essence, this is a phony issue in service of competing and antithetical interests. You may find this manifestation of false parochialisms of interest but they do little to shape a true American identity. It simply repeats the nonsense of Pilgrim Pageants for the denizens of LalaLand...oh well perhaps Mel Gibson can find an idea for a film hereEvil Smile

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 19 May 2010 at 13:38
Mean Dr. G,

I honestly don't get your point. I just don't understand what you are trying to say.

But I will try to answer you .

If you are against made up pseudo-history, so am I. If the program teaches pseudo-history, that should be corrected, but the field is legitimate.

Questions such as how the South West became part of the U.S., what happened to the Mexicans (sorry, Spaniards... ) who were left there, when then Mexican start to immigrate to the U.S., where did they go, how were they treated, etc. are valid historical questions. Whether you like the answers or not doesn't invalidate or erase history, M. Dr. G.


As for proof of citizenship, does that mean you are in favor of the law?

You are not afraid of being harassed? Does that mean that you can pass as white? Oh, goody!


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 19 May 2010 at 23:29
Hey, Hugo...por mi raza hablara mi espiritu!Evil Smile  To be even more mean is it not time by now for the gueros to take their revenge on all of those milperos for all of the havoc they've caused? As for the original inhabitants of the old frontiers of New Spain they integrated into the principal currents of American daily life long ago...even the last wave who "crossed over" during the chaos of the years 1910-1926. Now if you want to address the problems of migrant labor (all under official auspices) in later years that is another subject entirely but then we would have to undertake the corollary raised by poderoso caballero es Don Dinero...Leo Carillo might have cherished his role of Grand Marshall of the Rose Parade for years all gussied up in his "Sancho" finery, but such could not hide the fact that he was one of the largest landholders of Southern California real estate in his day! The simple fact here is rather obvious: these "ethnic studies" have essentially become exercises in stereotyping--shades of lace-curtain Irish! Of course, we could have one of those superficial discussions deploring the imagery of the Frito Bandido or even Speedy Gonzalez, but then we lose all points of sense and fall into the lachrimosity of sensibilities.
 
Yes, I am speaking bluntly because the issue of illegal immigration only crosses into the area of "ethnic" studies when such simply become forums for a detailing of all the dastardly actions of the gringos who_______(insert your favorite victimization scenario). By the way, yesterday the Sugarland police intercepted a van (stolen a week earlier from a retired Houston police officer) just chock full (13 to be exact) of "undocumented" aliens. These are now in the custody of ICE--
 
http://www.ice.gov/ - http://www.ice.gov/


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 21 May 2010 at 17:25
It seems that Arizona is on the verge of declaring war on LA because of illegal immigrants:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7742456/Arizona-threatens-to-cut-off-LA-electricity-supply.html - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/7742456/Arizona-threatens-to-cut-off-LA-electricity-supply.html
 
Lets see, when was the last time something close to this happened?
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 21 May 2010 at 19:14
Dr. G. HAS Mex cred!!!


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 22 May 2010 at 02:57
Yeah, Doc. Though I believe Leo Carillo's role was "Pancho", unless of course you re arguing for the Cisco Kid as a take-off of that inmortal hijo de algo of La Mancha.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 22 May 2010 at 14:01
I have got to learn not to let the mordant get the better of me; nevertheless, you devised the silent implication behind the quotes. Pancho as buffoon is reedemable socially only if you accept the Cervantesque. Otherwise, the character is truly offensive much as was "Sargeant Garcia" in the Disney reinvention of Zorro. However, do not mistake the comment as "evidence" that the old Doc is really among the radicals that have subverted Ethnic Studies and its teaching. Instead, look upon it as reflections upon a book written nearly 30 years ago, Philip Wayne Powell's Tree of Hate (1971) and still in print today. To properly take issue with demeaning caricature does not mean one must resort to the identical tool as response. Ignorant bigots will always be with us, it the "intellectual" ones that are dangerous.
 
Which brings me to a very "evident" evidence as to the vagaries of the real problem: Sacrifice of Law for the sake of political pandering:
 
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/05/immigration-hits-home-for-young-girl-and-first-lady-michelle-obama.html - http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/05/immigration-hits-home-for-young-girl-and-first-lady-michelle-obama.html
 
Placing aside the modern phenomenon of "First Ladyism" (the wife as presidential surrogate), the White House Press Office stumbled all over itself in explaining how it would not "pursue" the matter despite the direct admission blubbered by the little girl. That representatives of the Chief Executive rationalized that the Law in this instance would not be enforced certainly violates the presidential oath taken on 21 January 2009 and actually forcefully undercuts the duties of ICE officialdom. Not that the MSM did not hem-and-haw as accomplices:
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20005554-503544.html - http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20005554-503544.html
 
Of course, one might deduce that that the entire scenario was staged for political purposes but in that event the entire effort backfired as the earlier Pew Survey of 12 May predicted--
 
http://people-press.org/report/613/arizona-immigration-law - http://people-press.org/report/613/arizona-immigration-law
 
 


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 25 May 2010 at 11:47
If a state doesn't want immigrants it should build a reputation for harsh treatment of immigrants. People who migrate are seeking their fortune and would not willingly enter a state where they believe they'll be put through pain and misery. If deportations don't do the trick then try something else. Coming up with ways of being an asshole must be one of the most enjoyable jobs imaginable.

-------------
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 26 May 2010 at 05:09
Regimund, in the 1930s, California tried to keep the 'Oakie' refugees from the mid-western dustbowl from entering California. The supreme court ruled that Americans, and that would include those who have legally immigrated to the U.S., have a constitutional right to travel from one state to another. I know of no state that is anti-immigration. Arizona is anti-illegal immigration. And even without this law, Arizona law enforcement agencies were bound by oath to uphold the constitution and laws of the United States, as well as Arizona.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 26 May 2010 at 10:03
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

If a state doesn't want immigrants it should build a reputation for harsh treatment of immigrants. People who migrate are seeking their fortune and would not willingly enter a state where they believe they'll be put through pain and misery. If deportations don't do the trick then try something else. Coming up with ways of being an asshole must be one of the most enjoyable jobs imaginable.
 
No country in the world treats its illegals as Mexico (believe it or not) yet it continued to be a magnet for illegals:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_migrants_1 - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_migrants_1
 
Al-Jassas


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 26 May 2010 at 10:24
The article makes it rather plain those illegals only go to Mexico because it's the simplest route to the US, Mexico itself isn't so much a magnet for illegals as an obstacle.

-------------
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 26 May 2010 at 16:51
Double bubble, toil and trouble, how about some oil to roil the waters:
 
http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime_summary.html - http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime_summary.html
 
 


-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 26 May 2010 at 17:09
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Regimund, in the 1930s, California tried to keep the 'Oakie' refugees from the mid-western dustbowl from entering California. The supreme court ruled that Americans, and that would include those who have legally immigrated to the U.S., have a constitutional right to travel from one state to another. I know of no state that is anti-immigration. Arizona is anti-illegal immigration. And even without this law, Arizona law enforcement agencies were bound by oath to uphold the constitution and laws of the United States, as well as Arizona.
The problem isn't necessarily the law itself it's the implementation of the said law.  For instance, will the police only target people of a certain look or persuasion, will they only target people who speak Spanish or look like they speak Spanish, or will they target all illegals.  Many illegal aliens come in to the country legally and overstay their visas.  Many illegals are also not Hispanic, if the non-Hispanic illegals are not the targets of this law (or prosecuted under the law) then the law is unconstitutional since it targets one group over another (that's racial profiling).  If they ask for "the papers" of every person with an accent that's going to take up a lot of money and man hours and divert attention away from other, possibly more major, crimes.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 27 May 2010 at 04:04
Originally posted by King John King John wrote:


The problem isn't necessarily the law itself it's the implementation of the said law.  For instance, will the police only target people of a certain look or persuasion, will they only target people who speak Spanish or look like they speak Spanish, or will they target all illegals.


So what you are saying is that we don't have enough evidence yet to state whether of not the the law is causing problems.

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

  Many illegal aliens come in to the country legally and overstay their visas. 
  Yes, and they are as illegal as anyone who snuck into the country illegally in the first place.

Originally posted by King John King John wrote:

Many illegals are also not Hispanic, if the non-Hispanic illegals are not the targets of this law (or prosecuted under the law) then the law is unconstitutional since it targets one group over another (that's racial profiling).  If they ask for "the papers" of every person with an accent that's going to take up a lot of money and man hours and divert attention away from other, possibly more major, crimes.

Yes, but the majority of illegals in this country are Hispanics. But, that notwithstanding, could you please quote me the part of the Arizona law that states this law is applicable to Hispanics only. I've actually read it, and it says nothing about Hispanics or Mexicans or suspected Mexicans. It is targeted to illegal immigrants. And accepting for the moment your Hispanic illegals versus non-Hispanic illegals argument, would you please quote me the section of the U.S. constitution, or a Supreme Court case, stating that targeting one group of illegals over another group of illegals is unconstitutional.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 27 May 2010 at 15:55
Let us give a little History lesson here:
 
Who said--[H]yphenated Americans have poured the poison of disloyalty into the very arteries of our national life. Such creatures of passion, disloyalty and anarchy must be crushed out!
 
As a hint, ask yourself when and what were the origins of immigration laws in the United States.
 
It is quite a circle and almost an inevitability consequent to the vogue for hyphenization as institutionalized identity markers. The irony of it all should not be lost.
 
That was an exercise in long-term memory...how about an exercise on its short term counterpart:
 
The Monster from the Blue Lagoon (The Simpson-Mazzoli Act/Public Law No. 99 - 603):

The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 is the most comprehensive reform of our immigration laws since 1952. In the past 35 years our nation has been increasingly affected by illegal immigration. This legislation takes a major step toward meeting this challenge to our sovereignty. At the same time, it preserves and enhances the Nation's heritage of legal immigration. I am pleased to sign the bill into law.

Ronald Reagan, 6 November 1986

However, this presidential statement also underscored the glaring loop-holes that rendered the entire effort moot:

http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1986/110686b.htm - http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1986/110686b.htm

Now, the better question here is identifying the groups that have a vested interest in identifying an overall problem as a specific anti- "Hispanic" bias so as to facilitate their own ecounters [or the evading such] with the bureaucratic requirements for legal immigration even under the aegis of the temporary such as "student" visas.



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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2011 at 21:56
Since this entire thread is "political", I will post a political one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWU01NIwGbg&feature=related

Certainly the president of a nation with such Draconian laws, respecting illegal aliens, calling Arizona's new law as "bad, bad, bad!" Should have his hair coloured Yellow;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWU01NIwGbg&feature=related

Regards,
Ron

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"History, a distillation of rumour."-Thomas Carlyle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Carlyle


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 02:01
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

....
Yes, but the majority of illegals in this country are Hispanics. But, that notwithstanding, could you please quote me the part of the Arizona law that states this law is applicable to Hispanics only. I've actually read it, and it says nothing about Hispanics or Mexicans or suspected Mexicans. It is targeted to illegal immigrants. And accepting for the moment your Hispanic illegals versus non-Hispanic illegals argument, would you please quote me the section of the U.S. constitution, or a Supreme Court case, stating that targeting one group of illegals over another group of illegals is unconstitutional.


Confused  What a curious term is "illegal"... I bet native americans won't agree on whom is illegal or not in turtle island.

By the way, Arizona means dry region in illegal tongue. Anyways.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 02:29
Actually my fine-feathered friend, the native N. American tribes, have for many years had "freedom of movement" between the 48 US states and both Canada and Mexico!

This is not any hidden knowledge, but is part and parcel of any Border Patrol Agent's training.

"Behold, the poor Indian!"

That is, they could not, at least 20 years ago, be excluded nor questioned for an extended lenght of time, by anyone of the Justice Department, working for the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

All they were required to state upon questioning was "I am a North American Native American, and I stand by my rights as enumerated in the law."

Of course, most of them also carried ID's that said that they were members of such and such tribe.

Regards,

Ron

-------------
"History, a distillation of rumour."-Thomas Carlyle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Carlyle


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 02:33
Interesting!

Here we have something similar. There are some Ecuatorian indigenous peoples, called the Otavalos, that go all over the continent saling theirs textiles, rings and other goods. Once, the Chilean government had the bad idea of deporting them Confused... And the complain from the Ecuatorian government was formal and very tough Wink


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2011 at 03:15
Perhaps I should have attributed my source for my statement above?

Thus; http://www.quotes-museum.com/quote/68893

Regards,

Ron

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"History, a distillation of rumour."-Thomas Carlyle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Carlyle


Posted By: Buckskins
Date Posted: 29 Feb 2012 at 17:45
The so called illegal alien problem is a load of garbage. If employers like myself had the laws already on the books enforced, it would all disappear. We NEED the Mexican workforce unless you want double or triple prices for beef, veggies, and many other services. I employ illegals because I have no alternative. If they want a secure border then lets get out of Europe and quit protecting theirs. 

-------------
May you live as long as you want to,
and may you want to as long as you live.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 17 Feb 2014 at 06:11
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Quote Anyways, i am starting to doubt the enforcing of any law is going to work as long as the conditions south of the border remain as they are?

Yeah, a strong police presence and border control to stop drug, arms, and people trade between Mexico and the US would seem to be in everyone's interests. The Mexican army is already occupied in that region, but US deployments along the border would seem to be a good idea.


But wait, there's more!!!!!

Isn't there an American Department of Immigration, a Federal Government Department?

Isn't the Federal Government responsible for enforcing the US Immigration Laws?

Hasn't it always been an offence to enter the USA without appropriate visas etc?

Can a US State make a law which is the province of the Federal Government?

Sounds like a truck load of political BS to me.

-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.



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