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Anti-gringo music: no captions

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Topic: Anti-gringo music: no captions
Posted By: pinguin
Subject: Anti-gringo music: no captions
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 07:31
Anti-American music without translations.
This is a show of some music that carries interesting messages about the United States. Music that is widespread in the spanish speaking media of the Americas and Spain.

Molotov-Frijolero



Tam Tam Go- Crossing the river



Kevin Johansen - Sur o no Sur





Replies:
Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 08:04
Tio Caiman - Quilapayun




Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 10:42
Manu Chao - Clandestino



Juan Luis Guerra - Visa para un sueño




Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 11:03
What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!
 
Anti-Chilean music...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV4eQr8Uu34 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV4eQr8Uu34


-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 11:03
Celia Cruz - Latinos en Estados Unidos




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 11:48
Pinguin, is there a point to this?


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 11:51
Just enjoy the music.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 12:00
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Pinguin, is there a point to this?


The only point pinguin ever has to make is anti-gringo.  It is much of what got him suspended previously.

 


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 12:04
Discrimination!LOL
Nope, I am just showing you music you aren't aware of.
Just get the sense of humour of Latin America. If you are patient enough, I could explain it..

For instance, this is the drama of migration in Latin America. We go because we can't stay, we come back because we were pushed out.
Notice in this video the queue waiting to get visas at the embassy of "UTOPIA". Notice how Mexicans cross the border. See how the "Indians" want to get rid of theirs ponchos but they get stucked LOL

If you are not aware, the author of this song is Kevin Johansen American-Argentinean. His father is American and mom is Argentinean. Watch. I can explain the lyrics, and the Latin American sense of humour as well.

Kevin Johansen - Sur o no Sur




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 13:37
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Just enjoy the music.


Sure we would enjoy it more if we knew what heck they were saying other than anti-American/gringo nonsense? I mean really, clearly you are at least giving me way too much credit on my Spanish.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 13:53
See! Racism does exist everywhere.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 21:43
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Just enjoy the music.


Sure we would enjoy it more if we knew what heck they were saying other than anti-American/gringo nonsense? I mean really, clearly you are at least giving me way too much credit on my Spanish.


That would be fun. If you have the patience I can explain detailed what they are saying. In fact, the complains are mild and funny, more than hateful. So, let me know if you want explanations...

Celia Cruz, for instance, all that say is that Latin Americans in the U.S. should be united to be respected. Nothing else, and Kevin Johansen laugh about the misfortunes and identity problems of Latinos abroad.





Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2011 at 23:34
By all means pinguin, please fill us in when time permits.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 10:36
Ok, Panther. Here I am going to explain the more beautiful -in my oppinion- of those songs.

The song talks the history of a guy that goes abroad, crossing a river, and taking all kind of risks in order to get money for him and his couple. The guy hasn't have a good time at all, and he doubts he will survive the adventure.

I translate the lyrics... I hope my translation doesn't sucks Confused

Tam Tam Go- Crossing the river



He dejado mi casa   - I left my home
Me persiguen y no  - They follow me and I don't know what happens
se que me pasa      
Sin pasaporte y sin visa voy - Without passport or visa I go
Navego contra la
corriente y la brisa - I sail against the current and the wind.

Y si llego a la rivera - And if I reach the beach
Tendre la espalda   - I will have the back and the cloths wet
mojada y la estera
Tu seras mi refugio   - You will be my refuge
Que larga y triste que - How long and sad is this utopia
es esta quimera

Esperame                        - Wait for me
La vida fue muy dura alli - Life was hard at the other side.
Al otro lado                     
Que llegare                     - I will come back
No pienses que te he olvidado      - Don't think I have forgotten you, no
Desesperes no                              - Calm down

Voy cruzando el rio                        - I'm crossing the river
Sabes que te quiero                      - You know I love you
No hay mucho dinero                     - There isn't much money
Lo he pasado mal                          - It has been tough
Lo he pasado mal

Y si me alcanza el acero                 - And if iron reaches me
Recuerdame como he                     - Remember how I fought
sido en la lucha
He sido bravo y sincero                  - I have been brave and sincere
Por favor quedate tu                      - Please, keep my hat
con mi sombrero

Esperame                                  - Wait for me
La vida fue muy dura alli           - Life has been very hard there
Al otro lado                               - at the other side
Que llegare                               - but I'll return
No pienses que te he olvidado     -Don't think I have forgotten you, no.
Desesperes no                             - Don't despair!

Voy cruzando el rio                      - I'm crossing the river
Sabes que te quiero                    - You know I love you
No hay mucho dinero                   - There is no money
Lo he pasado mal                        - I have suffered

Si algo me pasa no olvides             - And if something happens don't forget
Mi estrella no es de                        - My star isn't from this world of the living
este mundo de vivos
Pero la casa te digo                      - But the house is, I said, where a friend  lives.
Existe siempre
donde hay un amigo

Voy cruzando el rio               - I'm crossing the river
Sabes que te quiero             -You know I love you
No hay mucho dinero            -There is not much money
Lo he pasado mal                  -It'been a hard time

Voy cruzando el rio (el rio)     - I am crossing the river
Sabes que te quiero (me muero) - You know I love you (I am dying)
No hay mucho dinero              - There is not much money
Lo he pasado mal                    - It's been a hard time
Lo he pasado mal

Tu me quieres             -You love me
Yo te quiero                - I love you
Tu me quieres             - You love me
Yo te quiero                - I love you
No hay dinero             - There is no money

Voy cruzando el río
Sabes que te quiero
No hay mucho dinero
Lo he pasado mal


Posted By: Joe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 11:12
Me no habla espanal senor.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 11:18
I put the translation at the right side of the lyrics, Sir.


Posted By: Joe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 11:30
I'd love to learn spanish go to spain and have sex with a bunch of european women on the beaches of spain whilst drinking the best french wines; but don't we all?


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 11:40
Originally posted by Joe Joe wrote:

I'd love to learn spanish go to spain and have sex with a bunch of european women on the beaches of spain whilst drinking the best french wines; but don't we all?


Wear a condom.


Posted By: Joe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 11:45
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Joe Joe wrote:

I'd love to learn spanish go to spain and have sex with a bunch of european women on the beaches of spain whilst drinking the best french wines; but don't we all?


Wear a condom.

Why would i do that when i could get on a flight back to the USA LOL

Seriously though going to Spain would be sick and in the good way.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 11:47
Why, because you'd never be sure about the reputation of the easiest senoritas.  And you don't want to bring back home a painful souvenir. Wink
Now, read the lyrics above, and you'll get lot of Spanish.


Posted By: Joe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 11:52
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Why, because you'd never be sure about the reputation of the easiest senoritas.  And you don't want to bring back home a painful souvenir. Wink
Now, read the lyrics above, and you'll get lot of Spanish.

No spain just completely raped what was left of the native american populace and boom your born. Its not like you speak Aztec.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 11:55
I am learning Mapudungun, fellow. It doesn't make sense I learn Aztec. Besides not all Spaniards were degenerates, or arrived in the Middle Ages LOL. My great granddad came from Spain, and was an immigrant, not a poor soldier of the 15th century, and I tell you that many Spaniards came in recent times to the New World.

And if you don't want my advice, go to Europe and be with the first women that give you a chance, and tell us if you survive it, literally.




Posted By: Joe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 12:00
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am learning Mapudungun, fellow. It doesn't make sense I learn Aztec. Besides not all Spaniards were degenerates, or arrived in the Middle Ages LOL. My great granddad came from Spain, and was an immigrant, not a poor soldier of the 15th century, and I tell you that many Spaniards came in recent times to the New World.

And if you don't want my advice, go to Europe and be with the first women that give you a chance, and tell us if you survive it, literally.



Hernan Cortes de Monroy y Pizarro IS THE MAN!!!! Thats just fact pinguin and now that's the master race of your culture. How can you claim a singular culture like native American and spanish. When everybody from mexico to the lowest point in south America speak Spanish. Latinos are spains grandchildren. A by product so to speak and a mixture of the native and foreign  culture.

Though like the Romans their culture and language prevailed. The master country SPAIN!


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 12:04
Hernan Cortes? He was a criminal. He killed his European woman.
Pizarro was more human after all. He married an Inca princess and had a daughter that moved to Spain and entered the nobility.

Spaniards a master race? Nope, they weren't so selfish to believe it so. Spaniards were tough but for some reason Indians survived more with them than with other genocidal european races.

Son. You have no idea about the region. I have no problem to teach you some of our history, but please don't repeat the stereotypes you learned in high school. Most anglosaxon teachers don't have a clue about our history.


Posted By: Joe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 12:05
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Hernan Cortes? He was a criminal. He killed his European woman.
Pizarro was more human after all. He married an Inca princess and had a daughter that moved to Spain and entered the nobility.

Son. You have no idea about the region. I have no problem to teach you some of our history, but please don't repeat the stereotypes you learned in high school. Most anglosaxon teachers don't have a clue about our history.

Hernan Cortes ruled thats why you speak spanish instead of whatever dead language you named. Though I am always open to learn culture.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 12:08
Originally posted by Joe Joe wrote:


Hernan Cortes ruled thats why you speak spanish instead of whatever dead language you named. Though I am always open to learn culture.


What dead languages, son? We speak Spanish because it is practical and allows us to speak a single language from Florida to the Land of Fire and from Spain to Central America.
If we need to speak Chinese to progress, we will do.

Son, don't repeat your stereotypes as a parrot.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 12:10
By the way, Hernan Cortes nor Pizarro were gringos at all. They were Hispanics like we are, so it is ridiculous you were a Cortes' avatar.


Posted By: Joe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 12:12
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Joe Joe wrote:


Hernan Cortes ruled thats why you speak spanish instead of whatever dead language you named. Though I am always open to learn culture.


What dead languages, son? We speak Spanish because it is practical and allows us to speak a single language from Florida to the Land of Fire and from Spain to Central America.
If we need to speak Chinese to progress, we will do.

Son, don't repeat your stereotypes as a parrot.

So you speak Spanish because its practical. Not because The guy in my avatar started the conquest of the new world. If it wasn't for the English everybody from North America to South America would be a latino. It is a stereotype but the history is fact. Hernan Cortes conquered the Aztecs and their culture died and Spain systematically destroyed their culture. Its also why so many mexicans are catholic. I swear to god every Easter mexican and spanish people parade through the local city dressed as romans and jesus and all that.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 12:17
Your guy doesn't have a single statue in Mexico. People of the Latin America admire heroes like Las Casas, rather than adventurers like Cortes. And with respect to the dead of the Mexican culture, you should be aware that the Virgin of Guadaloupe is Tonantzin. Never heared about the Santa Muerte?

By the way, I am agnostic.

 


Posted By: Joe
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 12:24
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Your guy doesn't have a single statue in Mexico. People of the Latin America admire heroes like Las Casas, rather than adventurers like Cortes. And with respect to the dead of the Mexican culture, you should be aware that the Virgin of Guadaloupe is Tonantzin. Never heared about the Santa Muerte.

By the way, I am agnostic.

 

Yeah but his effect is undeniable upon the culture of mexico. He might not directly influence but I have yet being a white male in his 20s to meet a mexican person who identified as an aztec and spoke that language. I understand Mexico fought a civil war much like we did with England and I appauld their victory in all the homage they deserve but whenever somebody brings up Mexican or Latino culture I bring up spain. Cause I knew a guy and lets call him Ed. He is an old man in his 60s who lived in europe for much of his life and hes a good friend of mine and he lived in Spain and Germany and colombia for years. Hes been to all the countries of south America in his many travels and i believe him as he knows both languages fluently. He says to this day if he had a place to pick to go to it'd be colombia or spain as their spanish is more "correct" and he may be white. Though i've seen the guy with spanish people and hes amazing its almost as if hes not an American.

I understand those cultures fought for their freedom but Spain is still the grandfather. Like here in America we would be dicks to say England isn't our grandfather nation.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 12:36
Still today, we call Spain the Motherland. Without forgetting our local origins as well.




Posted By: fantasus
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 19:26

Spain was the main conqueror/coloniser of the Americas, but I fail to see it was because they were more "qualified" or less "alien" than anybody else from other continents. Most european nationalities and states played little or no role in the Americas, except as immigrants. The British, Spanish and Portugese were the main exceptions, though the French, Dutch and Russians had some lesser undertakings.



Posted By: fantasus
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2011 at 19:35
And once more: Location and historical factors, rather than any special "cultural qualities" made the difference between the big colonisers and those who had little to do in the Americas.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 02:29
Pinguino, music is hardly a valid barometer of where people will vote. I say 'will vote' because music may represent an emotion that they share with others, and intensely feel at specific events or stages of their lives, but people usually use their heads before casting votes that will impact their lives. And when they don't, they end up damaging their own welfare.

Mexicans resent having to go through the legal hurdles of entering the United States, but they themselves are hardly liberal when it comes to refugees from Central America. Remember that scene in the truck in the movie 'El Norte', when the two Guatemalans, having hitched a ride aftyer crossing the border into Mexico, are cursing away in what they feel is Mexican Spanish, with lots of 'chingadas' peppered in, and the truck driver looks at them with a big smile and says: "Hey, you're from Guatemala too!"

Many self-described members of the intellectual elite in Latin America take pains to dislike the 'gringos' and the U.S., simply because our existence is further proof that their own systems fell behind, and remain there. If the French had won at Quebec, and had found the population to people the Mississippi River valley, making the present USA a Francophone nation, they would still feel pangs of inferiority to us.

The sad truth about illegal immigration is that it represents millions of people voting with their feet. And what they are saying is that no matter how much better their countries look now, there are still major barriers to socio-economic integration, and that the very best economic solutions their countries could come up with are vastly inferior to that available to their poorer class of citizens in the U.S., even as illegals.

Prior to the earthquake, your own country had achieved first world economic status. If you wish to maintain that status, you will have to be led by people with first world mentalities. Anti-'Tio Sam" emotionalism is best left to third world wannabe intellectuals living off the sweat of those very working class stiffs who often throw in the towel and point their toes northwards.  Otherwise, it will be a third century of solitude for Macumboland.




-------------
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 03:31
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


Many self-described members of the intellectual elite in Latin America take pains to dislike the 'gringos' and the U.S., simply because our existence is further proof that their own systems fell behind, and remain there.


That's baloney. Many people in the region hates 'gringos' simply because Americans have been the cause of many deads and trouble in Latin America. Don't forget that. Civil wars, invasions, intervention in internal affairs, the School of the Americas, robbing a province and create a contry to just build a channel on it, etc. etc. etc. The list is endless.


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 04:31
To be fair to Pinguin, the U.S. did a horrible wrong to Chile in the 70s. And the U.S. also supported for a while the Argentinian junta, and taught torture techniques to Central and South American.

However, the U.S. hasn't been that influential in Mexico during the same time period. It mostly had to do with Mexico's leadership trying to gain the favor of the U.S., but it hasn't been that bad.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 04:46
Originally posted by Joe Joe wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Your guy doesn't have a single statue in Mexico. People of the Latin America admire heroes like Las Casas, rather than adventurers like Cortes. And with respect to the dead of the Mexican culture, you should be aware that the Virgin of Guadaloupe is Tonantzin. Never heared about the Santa Muerte.

By the way, I am agnostic.

 

Yeah but his effect is undeniable upon the culture of mexico. He might not directly influence but I have yet being a white male in his 20s
You're in your 20s?
Quote
to meet a mexican person who identified as an aztec and spoke that language.
So what? Even if they did identify themselevs as aztecs they probably wouldn't be. Up until recently (maybe still true) most Jews couldn't speak Hebrew, but they were still Jews. How many so-called 'Latinos' speak Latin? For that matter I don't suppose you speak Old High German either. I certainly don't speak Brythonic.
Quote
I understand Mexico fought a civil war much like we did with England
You didn't fight a civil war with England (though somewhat tenuously one might say there was a civil war between the rebels and the Loyalists). Part of the population of the British (not English) colonies in North America, allied to the French, Spanish and Dutch, fought for independence and won it. America's Civil War came fourscore and five years later.
 
And where do you get the 'we' from?
Quote
and I appauld their victory in all the homage they deserve but whenever somebody brings up Mexican or Latino culture I bring up spain. Cause I knew a guy and lets call him Ed. He is an old man in his 60s who lived in europe for much of his life and hes a good friend of mine and he lived in Spain and Germany and colombia for years. Hes been to all the countries of south America in his many travels and i believe him as he knows both languages fluently. He says to this day if he had a place to pick to go to it'd be colombia or spain as their spanish is more "correct" and he may be white. Though i've seen the guy with spanish people and hes amazing its almost as if hes not an American.
Are you implying you cannot be Spanish and American? If he thinks any language or dialect is more 'correct' than any other, he evidently knows nothing about linguistics, but I guess that's not uncommon. When he talks about Spanish in Spain does he mean in Madrid, or in Barcelona, or in Bilbao, or Majorca? It's as silly as talking about the 'English they talk in England', or the 'German they speak in Germany'.
 
What does the colour of his skin have to do with anything?
Quote
I understand those cultures fought for their freedom but Spain is still the grandfather. Like here in America we would be dicks to say England isn't our grandfather nation.
But - and I think this is pinguin's point - the native population in the territory of the modern United States was effectively eliminated from the gene pool and their cultures vanished, whereas in the countries of Latin America there was much more intermixing, so that the various peoples and cultures merged and are still present.
 
Take a look around the politicians of Latin America and you'll find a lot with evident native Indian blood. Take a look around the politicians of the United States, and how many Indians are you likely to spot? 


-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 05:53
Originally posted by hugoestr hugoestr wrote:

To be fair to Pinguin, the U.S. did a horrible wrong to Chile in the 70s. And the U.S. also supported for a while the Argentinian junta, and taught torture techniques to Central and South American.
.


Yes, the U.S. intervined in Chile as well. However, the impact in El Salvador and Guatemala was a lot worst than what happened in my own country.
Those events can be forgiven, but they aren't forgotten.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 11:34
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

..
But - and I think this is pinguin's point - the native population in the territory of the modern United States was effectively eliminated from the gene pool and their cultures vanished, whereas in the countries of Latin America there was much more intermixing, so that the various peoples and cultures merged and are still present.


In Latin America the Indigenous influence is more clear because the rate of survival of natives was higher.
However, the U.S. also has lot of indigenous roots and also indigenous descendent peoples. In the surface the U.S. may look like a clone of Europe, but just under the surface you discover it has local roots as well.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

..
Take a look around the politicians of Latin America and you'll find a lot with evident native Indian blood. Take a look around the politicians of the United States, and how many Indians are you likely to spot? 


Indeed. But there is also American people with quite obvious indigenous features as well.



Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 26 Jan 2011 at 14:00
Actually, the Mexicans/Spaniards from the Northern States of Mexico did stay there. They were not eliminated from the gene pool, and in some states they are still a significant part of its culture. I am not too familiar with the subject though.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:20
I am convinced that many of the Amerindians that were "exterminated" in the early stages of colonization in the British colonies, actually mixed with the newcommers.
What happened afterwards was a flood of European migration that diluted that admiture to its current levels. But the idea that there wasn't admixture in the British colonies seems to be a ridiculous myth.




Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:37
Hello Pinguin. May I ask, what has this thread turned into? You know we already have a few other "victimization" threads you had opened in other areas of the forum. Even ones under the guise of "music" such as this is one is not immune. Now if you don't mind try to place your common themes under one roof in the future or better yet, under one thread. 


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:43
Victims? I am just showing music. Anyways. I quit the thread.


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:45
Umm...OK. If you say so. 


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 21:45
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am convinced that many of the Amerindians that were "exterminated" in the early stages of colonization in the British colonies, actually mixed with the newcommers.
What happened afterwards was a flood of European migration that diluted that admiture to its current levels. But the idea that there wasn't admixture in the British colonies seems to be a ridiculous myth.
That there was no admixture in the British colonies would of course be ridiculous. However I don't think anyone believes it, so it's not a myth.
 
My original point was that there was considerably LESS mixing of Amerindians with Europeans in the territory of what is now the United States than there was in Latin America. I didn't say there was none, and in particular I went to great lengths NOT to say in the British colonies.  


-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 22:08
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...
That there was no admixture in the British colonies would of course be ridiculous. However I don't think anyone believes it, so it's not a myth.
 
My original point was that there was considerably LESS mixing of Amerindians with Europeans in the territory of what is now the United States than there was in Latin America. I didn't say there was none, and in particular I went to great lengths NOT to say in the British colonies.  


I agree with that. The density of population at contact was very low in the U.S.
Actually, in genetical terms the level of admixture with Amerindians in the U.S. (6%) is half the Cuban (12%), and it is only a quarter of countries like Argentina or Chile (24%).


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 07:13
It has been claimed:
 
Actually, in genetical terms the level of admixture with Amerindians in the U.S. (6%) is half the Cuban (12%), and it is only a quarter of countries like Argentina or Chile (24%).
Hmm, let's apply those numbers in terms of total population as of 2009 stats: US 311.9 million; Argentina 40.1 million,; Chile, 17.1 million; and Cuba 11.2 million.
 
Egads! There are 18.714 million people in the US with Amerind genetics while in Chile only 4.1 million can claim some type of Amerind ancestry. So much for the balderdash over mestizaje and population densities.
 
 


-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 07:25
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

It has been claimed:
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Actually, in genetical terms the level of admixture with Amerindians in the U.S. (6%) is half the Cuban (12%), and it is only a quarter of countries like Argentina or Chile (24%).
Hmm, let's apply those numbers in terms of total population as of 2009 stats: US 311.9 million; Argentina 40.1 million,; Chile, 17.1 million; and Cuba 11.2 million.
 
Egads! There are 18.714 million people in the US with Amerind genetics while in Chile only 4.1 million can claim some type of Amerind ancestry. So much for the balderdash over mestizaje and population densities.
 
No doctor. That's not what it means.
These percentage represent the percentage of Amerindian genetics with respect to European/Other in the genetic pool. So, in AVERAGE every Chilean has a 24% of Amerindian genetics and 76% of European. It doesn't say anything about how many Chileans are full Amerindian, mixed or European at all. Most Chileans have some admixture. The same applies for other populations.
In Argentina, for instance, half the population has Amerindian mtDNA, but the average of mixing is about 20% of Amerindian. This means that half the Argentineans have a confirmed Amerindian female ancestor, but that the proportions of mixing
 
Got it? 


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 07:37
Hugo, in re this post:  "To be fair to Pinguin, the U.S. did a horrible wrong to Chile in the 70s. And the U.S. also supported for a while the Argentinian junta, and taught torture techniques to Central and South American."

Yes, the U.S. secretly funneled some 100 million dollars to Allende's opponents. A tremendous waste of money, but a drop in the bucket of Chile's economy. Since it hardly met the 'ipsa qua non' rule of events that led to the military coup, I fail to see it as a 'horrible" wrong. As far as teaching torture to South and Central American (??? militaries, I presume), I have never seen any realistic proof that such is true. I was a commando and patrolling instructor at the School of the Americas in the late '70s, and we did not teach any torture techniques. We did run a small block of instruction on how to take prisoners, which emphasized the 'secure, segregate, silence' etc rules which emphasized humane but strict treatment of persons taken prisoner. Of course, we had no control of what they would actually put into practice once they got back to their home countries. As for the dictatorships which sent students through the School of Americas, our human rights instruction fell on deaf ears, and we could hardly have taught any of these 'gentlemen' anything about torture.


-------------
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 07:50
Unless every inhabitant of Chile or for that matter any of the foregoing mentioned political entities has undergone genetic testing these claims remain essentially meaningless. An earlier poster underscored these antics with the rash of junk science littering the landscape. Just how far removed from "Lucy" do you want to go, Penguin, with these antics. Shall we have a discussion on markers and the quality of testing. If you want to play games with biogeographical ancestry go ahead but keep in mind that genealogical hocus pocus blending CODIS with OmniPop remains such and try to get a guarantee from the people hawking such data services. I am surprised you have not consulted with the "usual suspects" at Wiki.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test


-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 08:11
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


I was a commando and patrolling instructor at the School of the Americas in the late '70s, and we did not teach any torture techniques. We did run a small block of instruction on how to take prisoners, which emphasized the 'secure, segregate, silence' etc rules which emphasized humane but strict treatment of persons taken prisoner. Of course, we had no control of what they would actually put into practice once they got back to their home countries. As for the dictatorships which sent students through the School of Americas, our human rights instruction fell on deaf ears, and we could hardly have taught any of these 'gentlemen' anything about torture.


Of course, that is how i have come to understand it too. But it made for boring print at the time and no advertising sales. Spruce it up by throwing in the blood thirsty evil yanqui imperialist and ta-daa, a new myth is born. School of the Americas, a place where storm troopers and Sith lords go for some R&R and to find themselves.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:19
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Unless every inhabitant of Chile or for that matter any of the foregoing mentioned political entities has undergone genetic testing these claims remain essentially meaningless. An earlier poster underscored these antics with the rash of junk science littering the landscape. Just how far removed from "Lucy" do you want to go, Penguin, with these antics. Shall we have a discussion on markers and the quality of testing. If you want to play games with biogeographical ancestry go ahead but keep in mind that genealogical hocus pocus blending CODIS with OmniPop remains such and try to get a guarantee from the people hawking such data services. I am surprised you have not consulted with the "usual suspects" at Wiki.


They aren't meaningless, dear drgonzaga. The study of admixture in Latin America by means of genetical markers is quite advanced, and the studies in Chile are many. They match not only the historical records but the very aspect of the people.






Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:21
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Hugo, in re this post:  "To be fair to Pinguin, the U.S. did a horrible wrong to Chile in the 70s. And the U.S. also supported for a while the Argentinian junta, and taught torture techniques to Central and South American."

Yes, the U.S. secretly funneled some 100 million dollars to Allende's opponents. A tremendous waste of money, but a drop in the bucket of Chile's economy. Since it hardly met the 'ipsa qua non' rule of events that led to the military coup, I fail to see it as a 'horrible" wrong. As far as teaching torture to South and Central American (??? militaries, I presume), I have never seen any realistic proof that such is true. I was a commando and patrolling instructor at the School of the Americas in the late '70s, and we did not teach any torture techniques. We did run a small block of instruction on how to take prisoners, which emphasized the 'secure, segregate, silence' etc rules which emphasized humane but strict treatment of persons taken prisoner. Of course, we had no control of what they would actually put into practice once they got back to their home countries. As for the dictatorships which sent students through the School of Americas, our human rights instruction fell on deaf ears, and we could hardly have taught any of these 'gentlemen' anything about torture.


Yes, the infamous School of the Americas.

One can understand that the U.S. took sides on the ideological battles of the Cold War. It is easy to understand that the U.S. financed theirs guys in the game.

What I can't undestand, though, is how a country like the U.S. that preaches freedom, equality and justice, supported torture and extermination of political opponents overseas. That's unacceptable. You can't hate freedom inside and tyrany outside.




Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:39
Is the above a rhetorical question? The notion that the United States bears direct responsibility for the politcal fray in Chile is ludicrous on its face. Nor are many in Latin America in need of instruction when it comes to militarism, torture, political terror etcetera, etecetera , etcetera. Again the cant comes through and conveniently forgets that Pinocher remained in power long after the US took any interest in the goings on...as for this admixture biz, it remains the remnant of early 20th century intellectual buzzing so as to calm the hoi polloi. Funny you've not mentioned Becker again.

-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I am convinced that many of the Amerindians that were "exterminated" in the early stages of colonization in the British colonies, actually mixed with the newcommers.
What happened afterwards was a flood of European migration that diluted that admiture to its current levels. But the idea that there wasn't admixture in the British colonies seems to be a ridiculous myth.




You are convinced because you have convinced yourself - the usual pinguin myopia.




Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:45
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Hello Pinguin. May I ask, what has this thread turned into? You know we already have a few other "victimization" threads you had opened in other areas of the forum. Even ones under the guise of "music" such as this is one is not immune. Now if you don't mind try to place your common themes under one roof in the future or better yet, under one thread. 


What the thread has turned into is what all pinguin threads turn into.  We all know what that is.




Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 09:53
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Is the above a rhetorical question? The notion that the United States bears direct responsibility for the politcal fray in Chile is ludicrous on its face. Nor are many in Latin America in need of instruction when it comes to militarism, torture, political terror etcetera, etecetera , etcetera. Again the cant comes through and conveniently forgets that Pinocher remained in power long after the US took any interest in the goings on...as for this admixture biz, it remains the remnant of early 20th century intellectual buzzing so as to calm the hoi polloi. Funny you've not mentioned Becker again.


What was done in Chile was done by Chileans.  Efforts to stigmatize the US for the military's actions and behavior are (to revive a Beylerbeyi term) a wank-fest.

What was done in Argentina was done by Argentinians.

What was done in Brazil was done by Brazilians.

All this "victimization" and crap that everything bad in Latin America is the fault of the United States, and that everything was hatched by the CIA borders on pathology....Ooooooh, poor Chile - the military wires up their opponents' privates and it is somebody else's fault.  They did it; they can get over it.

Not our fault; not our problem.






Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 10:14
Nobody has said everything bad in Latin America is the fault of the United States; that's a straw man, I am afraid. But I agree with the political analysis of Porfirio Diaz. A picture of him, first:



I quote him:

Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States!


Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

.Ooooooh, poor Chile - the military wires up their opponents' privates and it is somebody else's fault.  They did it; they can get over it.

Not our fault; not our problem.


Well, that reveals simply your lack of knowledge about the topic. I will inform you a bit.

Do you know who was Michael Townley?


Michael Vernon Townley is an American citizen currently living in the United States under terms of the federal witness protection program. A Central Intelligence Agency agent and operative of the Chilean secret police, DINA, Townley confessed, was convicted, and served time in the United States for the 1976 Washington, D.C., assassination of Orlando Letelier, former Chilean ambassador to the United States. As part of his plea bargain, Townley received immunity from further prosecution, and was therefore not extradited to Argentina to stand trial for the assassination attempt on Chilean general Carlos Prats and his wife. Townley has also been convicted (1993), in absentia, by an Italian court for carrying out the 1975 Rome murder attempt on Bernardo Leighton. Townley worked in producing chemical weapons for Pinochet's use against political opponents, along with Colonel Gerardo Huber and the DINA biochemist Eugenio Berríos.


Do you know that Townley was a pioneer on terrorist attacks in the United States, 25 years before 9/11? He put a bomb in Washington DC that killed not only the Chilean politic but an American woman! And he was forgiven by the U.S. justice system, and lives like a king there.

Please, don't speak on topics you aren't aware. Watch the video






Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 10:39
And if you aren't convinced of the involvement of the U.S. as yet, here is the confession of the American Colonel Paul Wimert (Santiago US embassy) that he received US$ 250.000 to kill Rene Schneider. Schneiner was a commander in chief in Chile months before Allende become president. Schneiner was killed to leave the road open to military coups.




Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 11:32
I don't deny US involvement!  That is not the point.  What happened in Chile was done 99.99999% by CHILEANS!  Not out problem.

So Schneider got whacked?  So what?  That is all part of the game.  If you don't want to be in someone's gun sights in an unstable political environment, go grow grapes! 

All your arguments are BS!  As they are 99.99999% of the time.  LOL

Oh, and up YourTube.

 




Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 11:40
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:

I don't deny US involvement!  That is not the point.  What happened in Chile was done 99.99999% by CHILEANS!  Not out problem.


I don't deny Chilean involvement Confused. Another straw man in your side. But we were analyzing the U.S. interventions abroad, didn't we?  And the U.S. acted in this case like the maffia, corromping and helping the criminals.

What else could you expect of a corrupt president like Nixon.

And it is YOUR problem, because your government contracted criminals to make the dirty job! Where are the values of freedom and democracy that preaches when it acts that way?
Where is the example your country gives to the world?
Whas it the U.S. of the time better than the Soviet Union? At least, Soviets were comrades, rather than supermen.

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:


So Schneider got whacked?  So what?  That is all part of the game.  If you don't want to be in someone's gun sights in an unstable political environment, go grow grapes! 


It was not a game. It was a murder financed by the United States. The corrupt U.S. official shown in the video confessed his involvement.

Remember that once upon a time there wasn't terrorist attacks on U.S. ground. Well, Letelier attack in Washington marked the beginning of an age where terrorism attacked with force your country. I am afraid the killing of that third world politician gave the example to the others that follow, increasing little by little the mortality of the attacks, and that ended in the 9-11.

Now, I wonder if it ended, or if larger attacks will follow in the future.

Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:


All your arguments are BS!  AS they are 99.99999% of the time.  LOL  


Your denial is ridiculous. Dead

Too bad your country has not learned the lesson as yet, believing it can convince the world with propaganda, when only convince Americans. Where are the guns of mass destruction in Iraq, Sir? Your country is still behaving like an immature teen, and it seems will never learn.

I am afraid truth is something too hard to accept.











Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 11:51
I am hearing "anti-gringo music!"  LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


LOLLOLLOLLOL



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 11:57


Here you have more. Too bad you don't understand a thing, but describes your country.

And this video shows part of the meaning.





Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 11:59
YouTube = pinguin's Library of Congress.

How could you be more irrelevant and ridiculous???




Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 12:06
Here you have the song with English lyrics. Enjoy it. This song at least shows how we judge your country.




Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 12:08
Next..................yaaaaaawn.




Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 12:08
As usual, the Penguin, leaves out the details:
 
Interview with Col. Paul Wimert--
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/coldwar/interviews/episode-18/wimert1.html - http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/coldwar/interviews/episode-18/wimert1.html
 
Interview with Arturo Alessandri--
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/coldwar/interviews/episode-18/alessandri1.html - http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/coldwar/interviews/episode-18/alessandri1.html
 
But then the factual is not of interest here but instead the usual ratatatata--now frankly admitted:
 
Too bad your country has not learned the lesson as yet, believing it can convince the world with propaganda, when only convince Americans. Where are the guns of mass destruction in Iraq, Sir? Your country is still behaving like an immature teen, and it seems will never learn.

Now if that ain't propaganda I've never been to the Plaza de la Revolucion nor listened to a chat from Senor Presidente.
 
And for goodness sakes the pic of Porfirio Diaz was a hoot...talk about your crowned heads of Europe.
Here's another showing the wisdom of medals as a substitute for bullet-proof vests:
 
 
 


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 12:17
Yes, Porfirio was a tyrane, but at least he had a sharp intuition.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 12:37
Well Penguin you'd marry the devil just to spite God!

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2011 at 21:34
That's funny. 


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 01:26
I liked this quote from Dr. G's link to the Penguin's Wilmert interview:

"INTERVIEWER: Do you think America had much to do with the final removal of Allende?

COL. WIMERT: No, no I really don't. Pinochet ....he wouldn't have given a damn whether the Untied States liked it or not - he would have done it. There was no worry about him and a thing like that - he was too firm. They had these secret meetings in the War College where they laid out the plans and I was able to hold of one of the plans...."

For Joe:  If you walk out of the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City, and turn right, those ladies sitting on the sidewalk selling little dolls are speaking Nahuatl. Likewise, if you drive out of Mexico City on Reforma, heading for Toluca, the capital of Mexico State, you will find a lot of places where the locals still speak Nahuatl in the home and among themselves. It doesn't make them any less Mexican, and they can all speak Spanish when dealing with outsiders.

I still see posters who refer to the Indians being "annihilated" in the U.S. (shake of head). Displaced by the sheer number of settlers arriving would be more correct, and it wasn't just in the West. The simple fact is that as North America filled up, those who clung to tribal ways were marginalized. An unbiased picture of this process can be seen in a local history on the town of Lowell, Massachusetts, entitled "Cotton Was King", edited at Arthur L. Eno, Jr., which describes the early inhabitants and settlers along the Merrimack river, and then its transition to one of the major mill towns of the American Industrial Revolution in the 1820s. The falls where the canals were built for the mills were the site of annual Indian gatherings to fish for Salmon. In the early mill years, the workers would watch the Indians as they fished. But as the town grew, and the mills expanded, salmon declined, until by the late 1800s what had been hundred of Indians fishing were then much smaller numbers. By the 1900s, salmon were a rare sight in the Merrimack, and Indians rarely seen. No great military campaigns. No made in Washington plots to 'annihilate the Redskins'. Just the simple expansion of what had been a bucolic New England farming and forest area into an industrial city. 






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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 01:50
What I find unsupportable is the idea that the 1973 coup in Chile was not carried out by the Chilean military and the Chilean internal security forces.  Assigning blame and responsibility to outside agency is just victimization (a common malady in modern times).

If US officials had contact with the military and said "hey a change would be in all our best interests,"  it was still the military on the spot that had to make the change.  Without the support of the military and police there would have been no coup.

What would the State Dept or the CIA have said to the Chilean high command that they didn't already know?  Doesn't make sense.  Whatever happened (and whatever happened later) was the responsibility of the Chileans, and of no one else.

 


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 02:13
Nobody denied that the Chilean gorillas carried the coup. The U.S. was just an ally of them. What I wonder is how the U.S. could encourage such thugs.

Allende was a great man, Pinochet was a gorrila and thug. Nixon was a corrupt criminal. Period.


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 02:40
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Nobody denied that the Chilean gorillas carried the coup. The U.S. was just an ally of them. What I wonder is how the U.S. could encourage such thugs.

Allende was a great man, Pinochet was a gorrila and thug. Nixon was a corrupt criminal. Period.
 
Allende was a poppinjay talking revolutionary change while living the capitalist "High Life". If anything he was emblematic of the typical "radical" intellectual playing the game for profit and manipulation, a type long known in Latin American circles and directly linked to the socialist personalistas of the 1930s. In all truth he was the past when he took office in 1970 and thought the old and fruitless ideas of that time had relevance to the then contemporary world. The economic implosion that actually "did him in" was the significant "canary in the coal mine" underscoring the difference between tired rhetoric from a dead past and transformed economic realities.
 
Save the hyprbole, Penguin, for Pablo Neruda. At least that's one hopeless Romantic with a significant body-of-works.


-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 03:59
Wow, all this music that I like is now being painted as anti-gringo music, when some isn't even that.

Stormfront couldn't have done a better job.


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 06:05
Originally posted by hugoestr hugoestr wrote:

Wow, all this music that I like is now being painted as anti-gringo music, when some isn't even that.

Stormfront couldn't have done a better job.


The thread changed from music to sound and fury.  An occupational hazard of Internet groups.

As mentioned elsewhere many times, international power politics is not for pansies and weaklings.  I said all I have to say. 




Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 06:08
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

... 
Allende was a poppinjay talking revolutionary change while living the capitalist "High Life". If anything he was emblematic of the typical "radical" intellectual playing the game for profit and manipulation, a type long known in Latin American circles and directly linked to the socialist personalistas of the 1930s. In all truth he was the past when he took office in 1970 and thought the old and fruitless ideas of that time had relevance to the then contemporary world. The economic implosion that actually "did him in" was the significant "canary in the coal mine" underscoring the difference between tired rhetoric from a dead past and transformed economic realities.
 
Save the hyprbole, Penguin, for Pablo Neruda. At least that's one hopeless Romantic with a significant body-of-works.


What Allende was is not your business. All that matter is that he was elected by the people. It was our internal affairs and ours problems.


Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 06:22
I can't wait to hear the Heavy Metal in this thread (oh, nothing wimpy like the stuff from Gringo Starr eitherBig smile).




Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 06:31
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

I can't wait to hear the Heavy Metal in this thread (oh, nothing wimpy like the stuff from Gringo Starr eitherBig smile). 


And nothing from that leftist John Lenin either.   Big smile




Posted By: Seko-
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 06:32
LOL You mean the famous hit song:  All You Need is Communist LOve


Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 06:34
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

LOL You mean the famous hit song:  All You Need is Communist LOve


BACK IN THE USSR!  Smile




Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 07:38
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

... 
Allende was a poppinjay talking revolutionary change while living the capitalist "High Life". If anything he was emblematic of the typical "radical" intellectual playing the game for profit and manipulation, a type long known in Latin American circles and directly linked to the socialist personalistas of the 1930s. In all truth he was the past when he took office in 1970 and thought the old and fruitless ideas of that time had relevance to the then contemporary world. The economic implosion that actually "did him in" was the significant "canary in the coal mine" underscoring the difference between tired rhetoric from a dead past and transformed economic realities.
 
Save the hyprbole, Penguin, for Pablo Neruda. At least that's one hopeless Romantic with a significant body-of-works.


What Allende was is not your business. All that matter is that he was elected by the people. It was our internal affairs and ours problems.
 
Now that response is a hoot! Specially coming from someone who has been more than "free" with his characterizations of politicians and historical figures from elsewhere. Besides you are playing fast and loose with the facts, Allende's small plurality guaranteed that his ascent to the Chilean presidency was not an "election" by the people. Instead, Allende succeeded to office at the pleasure of the National Congress. Such is an important footnote since it required Allende to sign the Statute of Constitutional Guarantees prior to his congressional election on 24 Ocober 1970.
 
Please be advised that when it comes to Chile you can not pull the wool over my eyes and perhaps it is time to inquire why have you been so strangely silent over the disbursal of KGB funds to the Allende candidacy throughout that year--beginning with $400,000 and even including a personal $50,000 to good old Sal--the book to read:
 
Vasili Mitrokhin and Christopher Andrew. The World Was Going Our Way: The KGB and the Battle for the Third World. New York: Basic Books, 1999.
 
Yuri Andropov's KGB was very efficient in the recording of their "extraordinary" expenditures.
 
By the way, you should take cognizance that between 1960 and 1962 I had the personal friendship of Eduardo Frei Montalva who was a regular visitor to my uncle's residence in New York City while he lectured at Columbia University--I was even a young guest at his seminars!


-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 10:12
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

LOL You mean the famous hit song:  All You Need is Communist LOve


What about this song by the drug addict Rolling Stones. I bet you love it.




Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 10:16
Originally posted by pikeshot1600 pikeshot1600 wrote:


BACK IN THE USSR!  Smile


Give peace a chance:



Yes. There are many anti-yankee tunes, in English as well LOL





Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 10:23
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Now that response is a hoot! Specially coming from someone who has been more than "free" with his characterizations of politicians and historical figures from elsewhere. Besides you are playing fast and loose with the facts, Allende's small plurality guaranteed that his ascent to the Chilean presidency was not an "election" by the people. Instead, Allende succeeded to office at the pleasure of the National Congress. Such is an important footnote since it required Allende to sign the Statute of Constitutional Guarantees prior to his congressional election on 24 Ocober 1970.


He was the President legaly elected. He was murdered (or forced to commit suicide) by the gorilla and puppets of Nixon.

Allende has a statue right beside the government house. There is a reason for it. People appreciate his sacrifice.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Please be advised that when it comes to Chile you can not pull the wool over my eyes and perhaps it is time to inquire why have you been so strangely silent over the disbursal of KGB funds to the Allende candidacy throughout that year--beginning with $400,000 and even including a personal $50,000 to good old Sal--the book to read:
 
Vasili Mitrokhin and Christopher Andrew. The World Was Going Our Way: The KGB and the Battle for the Third World. New York: Basic Books, 1999.
 
Yuri Andropov's KGB was very efficient in the recording of their "extraordinary" expenditures.


So what. We know the U.S. financed the Christian Democrat party.
That's not something we really care. We care when money flew to kill our people.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
By the way, you should take cognizance that between 1960 and 1962 I had the personal friendship of Eduardo Frei Montalva who was a regular visitor to my uncle's residence in New York City while he lectured at Columbia University--I was even a young guest at his seminars!


Interesting. You should know that former President Frei Montalva was killed by the gorilla as well. I bet you are informed about that, though.

Frei also has a statue close to the Presidential house. Both presidents were killed by that gorilla.




Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 10:48
Originally posted by hugoestr hugoestr wrote:

Wow, all this music that I like is now being painted as anti-gringo music, when some isn't even that.

Stormfront couldn't have done a better job.


Well, the song that you love above can have many readings. Not only anti-gringo but better anti-war, anti-violence and anti-militarism.

Something like Pink Floyd's Welcome to the Machine




Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 11:27
You fight phantoms, Penguin, Pinochet is dead as well and if you keep up that type of rant it would probably serve as good evidence that a future Pinochet or Allende will appear on the horizon. You can mythologize the immediate past all you want but be aware that a facts-check meter is ticking. You very well know that Judge Madrid was removed from the "Frei Murder case" case and that the purported "poisoner", Berrios, had been safely dead since 1995. We will not bring up the fact that this scenario played out in the background of pending Chilean elections in December of 2009. Nor shall we muse about Madrid's involvement in the Berrios case as well--
 
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=52812 - http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=52812
 
Keep me informed as to the whens and ifs...now that Alejandro Madrid is out of the picture. Anyway, Sebastian Pinera Echenique won the run-off so obviously the majority of Chileans have moved on and this time no national Congress "picking" between politicians with pluralities. Perhaps it is also time for you to move and stop fighting with ghosts.
 
 


-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 11:33
As for your musical tastes, P old boy, when are you going to dredge up Where Have all the Flowers Gone (Koloda Duda)...teary socialists love Pete Seeger's derivative ditty from the Old Ukrainian!
 
 
http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/marlene-dietrich-where-have-all-the-flowers-gone/775791fd5633f16d822b775791fd5633f16d822b-416067093706?q=where+have+all+the+flowers+gone&FORM=VIRE7 - http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/marlene-dietrich-where-have-all-the-flowers-gone/775791fd5633f16d822b775791fd5633f16d822b-416067093706?q=where+have+all+the+flowers+gone&FORM=VIRE7


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 11:36
Yes, Pinochet died, and Nixon was unmasked as a thug. Let's celebrate.









Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 11:41
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Keep me informed as to the whens and ifs...now that Alejandro Madrid is out of the picture. Anyway, Sebastian Pinera Echenique won the run-off so obviously the majority of Chileans have moved on and this time no national Congress "picking" between politicians with pluralities. Perhaps it is also time for you to move and stop fighting with ghosts.
 


Pinera is anti-fascist, my dear friend. I voted for him. The processes against the criminals have not stopped.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 29 Jan 2011 at 14:24
Pinguino mio, in re: "Nobody denied that the Chilean gorillas carried the coup. The U.S. was just an ally of them. What I wonder is how the U.S. could encourage such thugs."

What you should wonder is how an Army that had not intervened in politics in nearly a hundred years, a draftee Army of which Chile was very proud, obeyed orders from the 'gorillas' during the coup. If you can find the answer to that, you will be well on your way to understanding what really happened to turn so many Chileans against Allende.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 00:50
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguino mio, in re: "Nobody denied that the Chilean gorillas carried the coup. The U.S. was just an ally of them. What I wonder is how the U.S. could encourage such thugs."

What you should wonder is how an Army that had not intervened in politics in nearly a hundred years, a draftee Army of which Chile was very proud, obeyed orders from the 'gorillas' during the coup. If you can find the answer to that, you will be well on your way to understanding what really happened to turn so many Chileans against Allende.


How. All you need for that to happens is a complot.
It is very clear that Allende wasn't liked by the right wing elite, the fascist faction of the military, and the keepers of U.S. foreign interests.
So, the plan started to unveil even before Allende took power, with the murder of a democratic general like was Rene Schneider. You should remember that for the thug gorillas to take power many people had already died.

Yes, it was a complot by the people that didn't like Allende. Not all them were Chileans, though, but I don't blame Americans for the coup. I blame them for the hypocresy of preaching democracy and impossing or supporting fascist regimes abroad.

By the way, watch this video. It shows the suspicious that the criminal hasn't died. It also show how Pinochet was recorded by history.





Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 02:15
Penguin, if you do not realize that your resort to "conspiracy" theories and the tired jargon of times past (fascist? there has not been a "fascist" since old Benito got strung -up in the piazza) is little more than moving full speed into denial mode when it comes to addressing the internal problems of Chile then and now. If you wish to discuss Chilean policies and politics do so in the terminology appropriate to the home setting and corresponding to Chilean realities. Besides do you not find it a tad ironic that you--after all that rhetoric--now "confess" to voting for a a rather wealthy individual with his own baggage (shades of Pineragate) who, if anything, represents the exact social and economic strata that permitted  Pinochet and the Chilean military to perdure in power for an entire generation?
 
Understand that failure to respond to that last question will underscore that your penchant for anti-American blah-blah is but farce simply intended to antagonize.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 02:28
Pinguino, what you are saying is that the Chilean Armed Forces, at the time the most respected military in Latin America, was a draftee Army composed of sheep who blindly did whatever a clique of Fascist officers told them.

As for how 'history' will remember Pinochet, I believe that it is not yet written in stone. Hey, the great majority of Chinese still worship Mao, and he is a known mass murderer. But will they in 50 years? Likewise, will generations hence relook the Pinochet legacy and decide that there was more to the man than a mere cartoon 'gorilla'. I do know for a fact that I can find Chileans today who view him positively. Whether it's your children, or theirs who write the history, I really don't care. Not my problem. 

(Excuse me, I have to rush off to another secret meeting in the Pentagon. We meet once a week to draw up a list of countries we want to screw. All we have to do is snap our fingers, and those countries armed forces merely jump up and do our bidding. Viva el pentagonismo!)


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 08:58
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguino, what you are saying is that the Chilean Armed Forces, at the time the most respected military in Latin America, was a draftee Army composed of sheep who blindly did whatever a clique of Fascist officers told them.


Yes, the armed forced were (and are) very well organized and efficient. That doesn't mean they couldn't become an evil force at a given time. Remember that the German Army was the best organized and efficient of Europe at a time, but falled under the control of Hitler and the Nazis.

In fact, the policy of terror of the gorilla was coldly planned. The idea was to torture and killing people at random. That ways, only killing 3.000 people in a period of 16 years they were able to control our country.

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


As for how 'history' will remember Pinochet, I believe that it is not yet written in stone. Hey, the great majority of Chinese still worship Mao, and he is a known mass murderer. But will they in 50 years? Likewise, will generations hence relook the Pinochet legacy and decide that there was more to the man than a mere cartoon 'gorilla'. I do know for a fact that I can find Chileans today who view him positively. Whether it's your children, or theirs who write the history, I really don't care. Not my problem. 


Pinochet is already condemned. He is considered a brute. He is not considered very smart at all (we have his marks at high school LOL). He is considered an opportunist, given he was called to direct the coup by other smarters than him. Admiral Merino, for example.
His "economical myracle" is attributed to technicians of the Catholic University of Chile, rather than to his inventiveness. In fact, Admiral Merino had a lot more to do with that plan that Pinochet. A man that hardly could have abstract thoughts Confused
Finally, at the end of his life, it was discovered how much Pinochet robbed to the state. So, the image of him is not only the one of a murderer but of a thief.

Gorilla is any militar that took the control of Latin American countries during the Cold War. Gorilla is a brute that kill people and receive tips from Washington. Gorillas usually developed theirs skills at the School of the Americas.

Fascist is just a synomin of Gorilla in the local Latin American culture. Who cares about Mussolini and his clowns. For us, the image of a Fascist is Franco. The model of all Latin American gorillas.


Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


(Excuse me, I have to rush off to another secret meeting in the Pentagon. We meet once a week to draw up a list of countries we want to screw. All we have to do is snap our fingers, and those countries armed forces merely jump up and do our bidding. Viva el pentagonismo!)


Watch out for planes crashing at the building. Wink



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 09:12
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Penguin, if you do not realize that your resort to "conspiracy" theories and the tired jargon of times past (fascist? there has not been a "fascist" since old Benito got strung -up in the piazza) is little more than moving full speed into denial mode when it comes to addressing the internal problems of Chile then and now.


What happened in Latin America wasn't a conspiracy. Conspiracy is what happens under the curtains and nobody else knows. Here everybody knew what was going on! Confused
The details of what happens is there in hundred of sources, for anyone that want to study and see.

With respect to the term Fascist, perhaps you are right. Al least old Benito was popular among Italians who loved him. Many loved Hitler, Stalin and other dictators. On the contrary, nobody loved Pinochet here. Pinochet was one of the most hated dictators ever, and that itself requires a study.

But the term Fascist is well applied by me. Read the definition in the RAE dictionary (the official dictionary of Spanish)

fascista.

1. adj. Perteneciente o relativo al fascismo.

2. adj. Partidario de esta doctrina o movimiento social. U. t. c. s.

3. adj. Excesivamente autoritario.


The acception we use is "too much authoritary". Pinochet was a fascist, no doubt.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


If you wish to discuss Chilean policies and politics do so in the terminology appropriate to the home setting and corresponding to Chilean realities.


I shown above I have used the right terminology. Pinochet was a fascist. He was also a Gorilla. Look at the RAE dictionary again, where "Gorila" is recognized as a coloquial term for military dictator Wink

gorila.

(Del lat. cient. gorilla, y este del gr. Γόριλλαι, tribu de mujeres peludas).

1. m. Mono antropomorfo, de color en general pardo oscuro y de estatura semejante a la del hombre. Tiene tres dedos de sus pies unidos por la piel hasta la última falange, es membrudo y muy fiero, y habita en África a orillas del río Gabón.

2. m. coloq. http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?origen=RAE&LEMA=guardaespaldas&SUPIND=0&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC=No#0_1 - guardaespaldas.

3. m. coloq. Arg., Guat., Nic. y Ur. Policía o militar que actúa con violación de los derechos humanos.

4. m. despect. coloq. Arg., Cuba, Ur. y Ven. Individuo, casi siempre militar, que toma el poder por la fuerza.

5. m. coloq. El Salv. http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltObtenerHtml?origen=RAE&LEMA=militar&SUPIND=2&CAREXT=10000&NEDIC=No#2_3 - militar (hombre que profesa la milicia).



Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Besides do you not find it a tad ironic that you--after all that rhetoric--now "confess" to voting for a a rather wealthy individual with his own baggage (shades of Pineragate) who, if anything, represents the exact social and economic strata that permitted  Pinochet and the Chilean military to perdure in power for an entire generation?


Don't you know the right wing in Chile also has divorced from Pinochet and his thugs?
Nobody wants to be associated with the gorilla anymore.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


Understand that failure to respond to that last question will underscore that your penchant for anti-American blah-blah is but farce simply intended to antagonize.


I have already explained it. We live in a democracy. I voted for the President I though would manage the country the better, and that was Pinera. He is a millionaire, true, but to have a lot of money is not the same that being a gorilla. Not at all, sir. Besides, Pinera had made very clear he condemned Pinochet and he deffends the human rights of people. Even more, the processes against the Pinochet thugs go on.

Fascism has not support today in Chile. Pinochet is dead (thanks' God). Many of Pinochet accomplices are confined to jail, including bloody Mamo Contreras. Even more, today the right wing government is controlling the Armed Forced with harder hand that the leftists governments we had before. Confused

Yes, Chile has judged Pinochet already. He was guilty.







Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 09:28
Keep in mind this is a History forum and terms do have set meanings in that context. Further the language of exchange is English, and in an educated setting, not the ramble of the colloquial. After all are you now going to equate the usage of Falange in Chilean politics with the Falange of Primo de Rivera in Spain? Further the usage of "fascist" within an English language setting is now so debased as to be meaningless and best left to the immature with a marked incapacity for deliberative thought.
 
Besides I do believe that certain residents of the zoological parks are taking offense at your slurs on their character!
 
 
 


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 09:45
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Keep in mind this is a History forum and terms do have set meanings in that context. Further the language of exchange is English, and in an educated setting, not the ramble of the colloquial. After all are you now going to equate the usage of Falange in Chilean politics with the Falange of Primo de Rivera in Spain? Further the usage of "fascist" within an English language setting is now so debased as to be meaningless and best left to the immature with a marked incapacity for deliberative thought.
 
Besides I do believe that certain residents of the zoological parks are taking offense at your slurs on their character!


Indeed, actual gorillas are peaceful creatures. But the image of a gorilla here is this. LOL



Curiosly, according to the Webster dictionary, Gorilla has the same meaning in English:

1: a very large typically black-colored anthropoid ape (Gorilla gorilla) of equatorial Africa that has a stocky body with broad shoulders and long arms and is less erect and has smaller ears than the chimpanzee
2 a : an ugly or brutal man

So does fascism.

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autocratic - autocratic government headed by a http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictatorial - dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2
: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>

So, I am not using wrong terms. And yes, I am using these words to convey the meaning I want. I accept that.




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 11:07
Pinguin, there is a gorilla = hairy ape found in Africa.

And then there is a guerrilla = humans carrying AK-47 once only found in South America.

Other than that, this thread has become one big conspiracy theory.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 30 Jan 2011 at 11:17
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

...
Other than that, this thread has become one big conspiracy theory.


Justify the "conspiracy" theory. There is no conspiracy here. The plottings were done at light day and everybody knows who did it.

For instance, the involvement of the corrupt U.S. government of the time, lead by Nixon and Kissinger, is something very well documented. There is no conspiracy in calling them corrupt, given the fact the very American people exposed them as such.





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