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Bhavagat Gita & the Management

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Topic: Bhavagat Gita & the Management
Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Subject: Bhavagat Gita & the Management
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 13:11
The world has been facinated by the holy book Srimad Bhagavat Gita which was a teaching given by Sri Krishna to Arjuna has a lot of Management studies in it, which could go into the Corporate Governance, Government , War Management and Self Management . Let us analyse  them and find out if there is any truth in it.
 
To begin with I would like to quote "KARMA, DHARMA SWADHARMA AND YAGNAKARMA ARE VARIOUS NUISCANCES OF WORK, KARMA IS INDIVIDUAL WORK, DHARMA IS GROUP ORIENTED WORK, SWADHARMA IS GROUP ORIENTED INDIVIDUAL WORK, YAGNA KARMA IS EGOLESS, SELFLESS GROUP ORIENTED INDIVIDUAL WORK" 
Bhagavat Gita predicts posperity and peace when society engages in Yagna Karma.
I feel that all the above said aspects are embeded in the minds of all of us and all that we need to do is to refresh them and re-employ them and communicate a healthy work culture and values.
 
 


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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap



Replies:
Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 13:21
Well, I bet the impact of The Art of War in business shows western curiosity for Asian stuff.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 13:50
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

The world has been facinated by the holy book Srimad Bhagavat Gita which was a teaching given by Sri Krishna to Arjuna has a lot of Management studies in it, which could go into the Corporate Governance, Government , War Management and Self Management . Let us analyse  them and find out if there is any truth in it.
 
To begin with I would like to quote "KARMA, DHARMA SWADHARMA AND YAGNAKARMA ARE VARIOUS NUISCANCES OF WORK, KARMA IS INDIVIDUAL WORK, DHARMA IS GROUP ORIENTED WORK, SWADHARMA IS GROUP ORIENTED INDIVIDUAL WORK, YAGNA KARMA IS EGOLESS, SELFLESS GROUP ORIENTED INDIVIDUAL WORK" 
Bhagavat Gita predicts posperity and peace when society engages in Yagna Karma.
I feel that all the above said aspects are embeded in the minds of all of us and all that we need to do is to refresh them and re-employ them and communicate a healthy work culture and values.
 
Can you link to a source giving any reasons for your argument? Or quote some actual passages (again linking where possible, not copy-pasting)? It's fifty years since I read the Bhagavad Gita, so my memory could do with refreshing.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 14:15
 You can go through the Chapters of Bhagavat Gita  a) Karma Yoga, b) Raja Yoga to name a few. I shall give you the details of the same in the course of discussion.

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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 14:43
I was asking not just for text sources, but also your argument for claiming any relevance, or any superior relevance, to modern business. After all over the last half-century we've had groups linking management to Zen, and others to Sun Tzu, as pinguin pointed out, plus books like Tony Jay's Management and Machiavelli, and even my Managers and Magic, all looking at other cultures for insight into our own behaviour. 
 
And of course there have been plenty of people to proffer advice from the Bible (Jewish and Christian) and the Koran. So we need some kind of explanation up front why the Bhagavad Gita would be - practically - more useful than any of those sources?


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2011 at 16:34
Yagna karma?  Ritualized action? Just by throwing out terms and presupposing a reader is ignorant of the original meanings to this dressed up vocabulary is patronizing and is simply a cover to preaching. At least be honest about this faux endeavor as found here:
 
http://www.saibabaofindia.com/anil_kumar_sunday_talk_yagna.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.saibabaofindia.com/anil_kumar_sunday_talk_yagna.html
 
Again, must I repeat that this is a History Forum and not a medium for the advocacy of religious variants. If you wish to discuss the historical implications of the Bhagavad Gita (and its many layers, some quite contemporary) then fine. Other than that, if you wish to contrast this ritualization of the religious within a secular ambiance akin to holding a "Prayer Breakfast" before discussing how to swindle investors we are all ears!


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 08:23

In continuation with my inquest of Bhagavat Gita in relation to modern management practices I am giving herein below a Verse from Karma Yoga Text 13. Which makes me think, how relevant it is to the Corporate Governance  of today.

“YAD YAT ACARATI SRESTHAS, TAD TAD EVETARO JANAH.

SA YAT PRAMANAM KURUTE LOKA, TAD ANUVARTATE.

“WHATEVER ACTION IS PERFROMED BY GREAT MAN, THE COMMONER FOLLOW THEM”

AND WHATEVER STANDARDS HE SETS BY EXEMPLARY ACTS, ALL THE WORLD PERSUES”

In corporate management practices this  means that the leader has to set very high standards for himself only then he can expect his subordinates to follow the right management practices including high morale standards. They by the Entrepreneur should be a role model.

Every time he should question the old paradigm paving way for new thoughts and process and raise the bar on set standards for better which make an organisation more sound  in  Morals.

The Western Intellectual  Mr. Henry David Thoreau  Said “in the morning I bath my intellect in the stupendous philosophy of the Bhagavat Gita, in comparison with our Modern world and its literature seems puny and trivial”

Alfred North whitehead the great British mathematician stated that “Vedanta is most impressive  meta physics the human mind has ever conceived. You did more you learn.

Francois Voltaire Stated “Everything has come down to us from the banks of Ganges”

While quoting the various authors of the past I feel that when we are enquiring about the relevance of Bhagavat Gita I think we should try and interpret the same by our own engagement with the book rather  than taking  other people quotes . Here  I can say with confidence that Gita & Vedas provided the base for Modern Sceientific & Management thoughts.



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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 08:32

Mr.drgonzaga, Yagna Karma has nothing to do with Ritualised in the sense you are talking about, If you would have googled it find our suitable meaning. For you information Ritual doesnt mean anything that has got to do with preaching of a religion. Ritual in Sanskrit means even your daily core, yagna in the plurastic sense means Selfless acts.

I would request you to go through book "BHAGAVAT GITA AS IT IS", and you can find out the truth. There is no necessity for people to go through the preaching of any Gurus. Incase of Sai baba or other people who intent is to preach religion would have used Yagna Karma incon text specific sense, which should not be reason for you to cry foul.
 
Sir, I am sure you are a well read person and I sure that you will add up to the image of this thread as well without dwelling into unwanted quarters of religion & Caste which atleast is not the premise with which I started this thread. Let us all analyse the Bhagavat Gita and its relavance on Modern Management practices.
 


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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 11:52
Well, that's the same that Westerners do with the Bible, and the classics, too. Pick the appropiate ideas out of context. Nothing new under the sun.

Samples:

Location is everything
Genesis 28:16
"Surely the LORD is in this place -- and I did not know it!" (For context, read 28:1-5, 10-17.)

Honestity
Leviticus 19:36
"You shall have honest balances, honest weights, an honest ephah, and an honest hin: I am the
LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt." (For context, read 19:1-37.)

The golden rule
Matthew 7:12
"In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets."
(This is a complete statement; no additional context needed.)

Something that some managers forget
Luke 10:7
"... the laborer deserves to be paid." (For context, read 10:1-12.)


Jesus made









Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 12:04
I did not say that Bible did not have Management thoughts in it, but I have seen various books on Gita & Management by various authors which could been seen on the google site, I wanted to do an inquest from the Text itself word by word of certain chapter where the interpations are direct and pointed and not "IMPLIED".
I Shall be bringing it out in the subsequent pages of this thread.
 


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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 12:20

Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:


In continuation with my inquest of Bhagavat Gita in relation to modern management practices I am giving herein below a Verse from Karma Yoga Text 13. Which makes me think, how relevant it is to the Corporate Governance  of today.

"Yad yat acarati sresthas, tad tad evetaro Janah.
Sa yat pramanam kurute loka, tad anuvartate."
"Whatever action is performed by great man, the commoner follow them.
And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world persues"


You're claiming that you have evidence this is true? It is undoubtedly true that some people base their actions on copying role models, but I'm not aware that this is in any way because of the 'greatness' of the individual. As Carl Duerr pointed out in Management Kinetics (iirc) a reputation as a successful womaniser genrally helps a man's leadership capability. Dominique Kahn has lost no following because of his reputation for womanising (though it was shaken for a while by the apparent stupidity of his alleged actions in New York).
I also don't see any great rush on anyone's part to emulate the exemplary acts of Schweizer or Gorbachev, or for that matter Mohandas Ghandi.
Quote
In corporate management practices this  means that the leader has to set very high standards for himself only then he can expect his subordinates to follow the right management practices including high morale standards.

Do you really mean 'morale' or 'moral'? I'd agree that a leader has to expect less from his subordinates than he does from himself (there's nothing new in that) but what do you mean by 'higher' there?
Quote
They by the Entrepreneur should be a role model.
Every time he should question the old paradigm paving way for new thoughts and process and raise the bar on set standards for better which make an organisation more sound  in  Morals.


Whose morals? Apart from sexual activity, I'd take a great deal of convincing that absolute honesty, for instance, was a key to success in business. But maybe you have some case studies that show that it is.
Quote
The Western Intellectual  Mr. Henry David Thoreau  ... Alfred North whitehead ... Francois Voltaire

What do any of them know about modern management or business?
Quote
While quoting the various authors of the past I feel that when we are enquiring about the relevance of Bhagavat Gita I think we should try and interpret the same by our own engagement with the book rather  than taking  other people quotes . Here  I can say with confidence that Gita & Vedas provided the base for Modern Sceientific & Management thoughts.

On what do you base that statement? Where the confidence? We know the history of modern management/business thinking pretty well. I doubt than any one of those who developed it had paid any attention at all to any of the Vedic texts. Taylor, Maynard, Sloan, Simon, Herzberg, McGregor? Gekko?


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 13:24

Text 23  Chapter -3

"YADI HY AHAM NA VARTEYAM, JATU KARMANY ATANDRITAH, MAMA VARTMANU VARTANTE, MANUSYAH PARTHA SARVASAH".
 
 "If I do not engage in my work, certain all men would follow my path"
 
From this verse, we can find out that the leader should lead his team from the front and lead them by examples. If the leader is lazy and refuses to work , then he will not be able to expect hard work from his team. Hence it is necessary that he should be hardworking to set standards. Finally the strength the organisation gets is from the leadership and it is essential that one should have a right attitude towards work which includes hard & smart work.
 
Regarding role model, I would say everyone irrespective of his calibre gets inspired by people you work around, one need not take every traits of the leader(womanising part-- let us leave it to perverted minds to imbibe only wrong things).
 
Mahatma Gandhi even after nearly after over 50 years continues to inspire many Indian and foreign minds. For example take the case of Anna Haraze peaceful agitation thru the methods of Satyagraha in India has kindled the minds of thousands of Indians to support him.
 
 


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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 14:31
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

Text 23  Chapter -3

"YADI HY AHAM NA VARTEYAM, JATU KARMANY ATANDRITAH, MAMA VARTMANU VARTANTE, MANUSYAH PARTHA SARVASAH".
 
 "If I do not engage in my work, certain all men would follow my path"
 
From this verse, we can find out that the leader should lead his team from the front and lead them by examples. If the leader is lazy and refuses to work , then he will not be able to expect hard work from his team.
Well, lots of people say that. It still needs some kind of evidence, preferably other than anecdotal. You can only lead by example if you want your 'team' (the word has kind of lost all significance in recent years) to do the same things you do. In a highly speialised environment you frequently do not want the members of the team to follow your example: after all most of them will know how to do their jobs better than you do.
 
Torres captained the Brazilian team of 1970 superbly, and is one of the greatest defenders in history. But Pele would have got nowhere following his example, because their roles and skills were different. And Félix wouldn't have copied them much either.
Quote
Hence it is necessary that he should be hardworking to set standards. Finally the strength the organisation gets is from the leadership and it is essential that one should have a right attitude towards work which includes hard & smart work.
One wonders what experience you have in business or management, especially in actual business history. It sounds as if you've been reading Horatio Alger and taking it as fact. Working hard is not necessarily what you want anyone to do. Working successfully is the aim, not working hard.
 
One trouble with all this delving into ancient books for advice in what to do today is that they were written in and for cultures that were nowhere nearly as specialised or complex as we are today.(That's even true of the early modern writers on management like Smith or Taylor.) 
 
When a king led his men into battle whether in a chariot or in the shield wall there was some point in him being seen fighting harder and providing an example to emulate. But remember what another person said in another ancient book:
Quote I have observed something else under the sun. The fastest runner doesn't always win the race, and the strongest warrior doesn't always win the battle. The wise sometimes go hungry, and the skillful are not necessarily wealthy. And those who are educated don't always lead successful lives. It is all decided by chance, by being in the right place at the right time.
 
Quote  
Regarding role model, I would say everyone irrespective of his calibre gets inspired by people you work around, one need not take every traits of the leader(womanising part-- let us leave it to perverted minds to imbibe only wrong things).
If you ignore 'perverted minds' then you aren't going to learn much useful about human behaviour.
It's true some people sometimes get inspired by people they work around (or by people they work against, for that matter). But it's relatively rare, and it doesn't come from watching them work harder. There's no incentive for anyone to work harder for someone who already has enough in life to satisfy him. (Which reminds me while we're on the subject of ancient texts, that you're bang up against Gautama's teaching on this point. If we are to eliminate subservience to desire, what happens to the motivation to work?) 
Quote  
Mahatma Gandhi even after nearly after over 50 years continues to inspire many Indian and foreign minds. For example take the case of Anna Haraze peaceful agitation thru the methods of Satyagraha in India has kindled the minds of thousands of Indians to support him.
 
I quoted Ghandi because he struck me as probably the most universally respeccted figures in 20th century history. I don't think there's much reason to gild the lily.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 16:11
Spare me the "snake oil" and the appeal to philosophy as a commercial value given the fact that such is but fodder for bad novellas as with Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. There is nothing metaphysical about either intrinsic quality or effective management. Just by your citing what would be the equivalent of a Watchtower publication--Bhagavat Gita As It Is--reveals your hand and the mystical in merchandising has its own history, and such might be an appropriate thread with respect to the propagandizing of religion but such is not what you are attempting. It is bad enough handling the rabid secularists to now have to deal with the arrival of the Anti-Carcharadon.
http://www.asitis.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.asitis.com/
http://krishnastore.com/bhagavad-gita-as-it-is-1972-complete-edition-p-407.html?krcp=aiibgco" rel="nofollow">


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 16:31
I believe the Bhagavad-Gita is a lot more interesting because its phylosophical ideas. Particularly, I founded amazing that when Arjuna asked to see the reality of the God, Khrisna shows him the infinity, in a way very similar the aleph in the corner, in Borge's tale The Aleph.




Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 19:23
I don't think anyone is saying the Bhagavad Gita is uninteresting. The question is whether it presents any practically useful precepts for successful management or success in business (the two of course are not at all the same thing.)
 
It certainly doesn't seem likely that anyone who calls himself 'His Divine Grace', and claims to be "the current representative of an unbroken chain of fully self-realized spiritual masters begining with Lord Krishna Himself", is going to have anything useful to say.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2011 at 19:58
Por mi parte, creo que el desarrollo más importante del hinduísmo al desarrollo social humano ha sido el sistema de castas.




Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 11:10
Pinguin, you know better than that - give an English translation. I agree with the thought though.
 
Moreover it seems relevant to the topic. Caste systems don't work too well in modern business and management.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 14:36
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Por mi parte, creo que el desarrollo más importante del hinduísmo al desarrollo social humano ha sido el sistema de castas.


Opps... Confused I made a mistake. This happened to me once in a while, given I am in Spanish-speaking forums as well Wink

What I said was and ironic joke, that actually is a serious complain against Hinduism:

In any case, I believe the most important development of Hinduism to human development it was the invention of the castes system Confused

Now, how on earth we can promote Hinduism as a system to be copied by mindkind if in the very heart of it lays the unequality and the division of mankind in perpetual castes?

How we would apply Hinduism to the company then? Making the untouchables to clean the offices? And only allowing the brahamanes to be managers?

Yes, everywhere in the West there are social classes, and it is hard to jump from one into other, and most people do, but at least there is the chance for some to don't do it. There is nothing sacred in preventing people to progress.

In colonial Hispanic America, for instance, an indigenous family, if worked hard enough, could become rich merchant, and even aspire to nobility titles by means of the right marriages! And that happened all the time. All the Hispanic American elite was mixed! And we are talking of a society ruled by Inquisition. That would have been impossible in India.

Thinking the topic clear, this is a joke!! No wonder the equalitarian Chinese society, with its simpler phylosophy, has had a lot more influence in the West than India.






Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 16:11
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Por mi parte, creo que el desarrollo más importante del hinduísmo al desarrollo social humano ha sido el sistema de castas.


Opps... Confused I made a mistake. This happened to me once in a while, given I am in Spanish-speaking forums as well Wink
No hard feelings Hug


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: eventhorizon
Date Posted: 28 Aug 2011 at 22:52
Caste system was one reason why Buddhism had much wider appeal in ancient India, when it was unified under Asoka, of Muryan dynasty. It was essentially a revolt against and reformation of this debilitating caste system, which some believe evolved as a way for the lighter skinned Aryan migrants and their mixed descendants to keep their kind on top of the hierarchy and live on other people's labor, while whiling away their time in endless sessions of memorizing and internalizing the eternal hymns of Rg Veda and its successors.

The strength of Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma is this that it resides in the memory of the Brahmin priests in the villages, spread out widely among the populace. So even if the Buddhist kings used the far superior Buddhist ideology to unify and empower their empire and populace, the pernicious Hindu philosophy always made a come back, on the backs of the scheming Brahmins, who are close to the people, giving sermons and leading prayers in the village temples.

When the marauding Muslim Central Asian mounted nomad warriors arrived on horseback with their bows and arrows in hand, their eyes were on the Buddhist Viharas (universities) that looked like fortresses which they are familiar with and they burned these to the ground, whenever they encountered these edifices:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

So this removed the eternal Buddhist enemy of the Brahmins, which was centered around the monastery (Vihara's), but Islam with its classless structure, at least in theory, replaced Buddhism as the new enemy and eventually won large number of converts in a centuries long struggle.

Today Hindu polity is still divided because of caste system, while it is always the Brahmins that are more enthusiastic about Hindu nationalism and revivalism, keeping the old tradition alive.



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 01:44
Indeed. Hindu religion maybe very rich in tradition and literature, but the caste system is so negative and divisive that I doubt it could serve as example in management. Or as an example to the west.

I shouldn't forget to mention that in the XIX century, the Vedas and the caste system was in fashion in the West and inspired such lunatics like Mme. Blavatsky, the Aryanists and the German supremacists, the result of which is well known in the West.

What I found so ridiculous is the racist origins of the caste system. Today, when we found that brahamanes had all the non-aryan australoid facial features of the people they hat so much, it is obvious that the caste system failed as a racial barrier. But still is in place, discriminating hundred of millions in India.

Come on! Cows are treated better than untouchables in India! Holly cow!

I am afraid with that kind of religion of castes only hippies and the Beatles could extract humanistic lessons from the Vedas.




Posted By: Joe
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 05:54
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Indeed. Hindu religion maybe very rich in tradition and literature, but the caste system is so negative and divisive that I doubt it could serve as example in management. Or as an example to the west.

I shouldn't forget to mention that in the XIX century, the Vedas and the caste system was in fashion in the West and inspired such lunatics like Mme. Blavatsky, the Aryanists and the German supremacists, the result of which is well known in the West.

What I found so ridiculous is the racist origins of the caste system. Today, when we found that brahamanes had all the non-aryan australoid facial features of the people they hat so much, it is obvious that the caste system failed as a racial barrier. But still is in place, discriminating hundred of millions in India.

Come on! Cows are treated better than untouchables in India! Holly cow!

I am afraid with that kind of religion of castes only hippies and the Beatles could extract humanistic lessons from the Vedas.



Yeah but a majority of the Bhagavad Gita is about a war and religious aspects and ideals. Its a very religious style text more so than I expected but I do not think its in anyway it is a good "business text".


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 13:07
"The more I talk about me I talk about We" Jack welch(Chairman GE,
I was told by a poser that the rational of Management princples have changed over the years, but with this quote from Jack Welch I think the only change that is visible is" Old wine in New Bottle". The principle of team effort and spirit will bring in synergic output and no organisation can ignore be-little team spirit.
Indian Team won the world cup twice, again the it is sense of team spirit, that made the players put in the extra effort, and the world cup by theirs. Similarly we can cite thousands of examples wherein the employe'ssense of belonging is the reason for any successful organisation . Infosys the Indian IT giant offers ESOPS(EMPLOYEE STOCK OPTIONS) and we all know that from a humble beggning now it is formidable IT company respected world over.
 
Some years back I read a story of Hampton Inn, an a economy hotel in the United States, where the managment practices was not good and hence the business went down and the owners of Hampton wanted to appoint a New CEO, which they did.  On taking charge of the hotel he offered a scheme to all its customers, the scheme was "if any customer who checks in to the hotels has any problem which is not resolved to his satisfaction will be offered one additional night free". and to drive his employees to work harder in convened a meeting of all of them and told them that there will be no question asked if any employess is doing things that will make the customer happy within his ability even if it means swapping roles for the moment and towards the end of this year there will be an apprisal which will take stock of your role during this period offer especially it my baby and I will have to stand by my offer even if it means additional burden, and I am sure that you will not let a cutomer take an additional stay, with this he closed his speech.
 
The synergy infused on the staff was such the service levels went so high which is unparleled in the Service Industry till date.
I am sure that collective effort of any team is not a fad, but a reality that can change the fortune of any companies.
Here is what Jack Welch has to say

When Jack Welch took over GE in 1981 and became the youngest CEO in GE’s history, the legendary leader made a resolution to transform GE into the world’s most competitive enterprise. Welch is a strategic thinker, business teacher, corporate icon and management theorist. If leadership is an art, then surely Welch has proved himself a master painter. With his unique leadership style and character, Welch made history during his 2-decade journey at GE. While most leaders talk a good game on leadership, he lived it. In this article, we feature Welch’s 12 lessons and how they contributed to the largest corporate makeover in history.
LEAD, Not MANAGE

Welch doesn’t like the term ‘manage’. To him, it conjures up negative images, such as ‘keeping people in the dark’ and ‘controlling and stifling people’. Welch’s goal is to lead, create a vision and make people passionate about their work. Leadership, according to Welch, can be found in anyone as long as they contribute, come up with good ideas and can energize, excite and inspire rather than enervate, depress and control.
Below are tips to become a great leader like Welch:
· Articulate a vision and lead others to execute it
· Don’t manage very little details
· Involve everyone and welcome great ideas.

While Individual have to contribute but also work as a team and optimise synergic output.
 
 


-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 16:47
What in tarnation does Wicked Witch Welch have to do with either History or Management other than exemplify the practices and stylistic piracy thet eventually led to the Crash of 2008!?! If we are to discuss this personification of Gordon Gecko as an example of the Bhagavad Gita in business practice, you would have to convert this Forum into an infomercial on the qualities of greed and callousness. As for INFOSYS, leveraging information technology is hardly what one would identify as a divinely inspired pursuit and no amount of crapola is going to disguise that its pricipal function is to provide "cheap labor" in the realm of information services to international institutions determined to "cut costs" come hell-or-high water. Of course, if one is highly cynical one can easily conclude that its introduction here is but another facet of nationalism running amok.

-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2011 at 20:02
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

"The more I talk about me I talk about We" Jack welch(Chairman GE,
Jac Welch fired every year 10% of his management, irrespectivbe of how well the company was doing. So much for that great old 'team spirit'. Jack Welch epitomises the return since 1980 of management led, not from the front, not from helping his managers and workers from any kind of enrichment, but simply by fear of being fired in a depressed econmic situation..
Quote  
 
I was told by a poser that the rational of Management princples have changed over the years, but with this quote from Jack Welch I think the only change that is visible is" Old wine in New Bottle". The principle of team effort and spirit will bring in synergic output and no organisation can ignore be-little team spirit.
What do you mean by 'team spirit'? In a successful team you don't actually need a team leader because each member of a successful team does his own job: the leader is essentially a communicator, a connection point, and a motivator where one is necessary. In that situation team 'spirit' i.e. pride in being part of the team is engendered and of course it is invaluable.
However, you don't achieve that by trying to show you can do everybody else's job better than they can, which is what you were suggesting earlier.
Quote
Indian Team won the world cup twice, again the it is sense of team spirit, that made the players put in the extra effort, and the world cup by theirs.
And they just got slaughtered by England. 4-0 and twice by an innings.
Quote
Similarly we can cite thousands of examples wherein the employe'ssense of belonging is the reason for any successful organisation . Infosys the Indian IT giant offers ESOPS(EMPLOYEE STOCK OPTIONS) and we all know that from a humble beggning now it is formidable IT company respected world over.
There are plenty of examples wiere a company with stock options failed. I worked for one myself. WorldCom was another. So of course was Enron.
 
Quote
Some years back I read a story of Hampton Inn, an a economy hotel in the United States, where the managment practices was not good and hence the business went down and the owners of Hampton wanted to appoint a New CEO, which they did.  On taking charge of the hotel he offered a scheme to all its customers, the scheme was "if any customer who checks in to the hotels has any problem which is not resolved to his satisfaction will be offered one additional night free". and to drive his employees to work harder in convened a meeting of all of them and told them that there will be no question asked if any employess is doing things that will make the customer happy within his ability even if it means swapping roles for the moment and towards the end of this year there will be an apprisal which will take stock of your role during this period offer especially it my baby and I will have to stand by my offer even if it means additional burden, and I am sure that you will not let a cutomer take an additional stay, with this he closed his speech.
Smart move I grant you, since no-one who is having a bad experience at a hotel will take them up on the offer of an extra night. However, the guy thought up the scheme himself, dictated it to his workers, who presumably sat back and said (quietly) "Oh, yeah!", and threatened them with punitive action if they didn't shape up. Not the world's most successful recipe for building a teak of happy campers.
Quote  
The synergy infused on the staff was such the service levels went so high which is unparleled in the Service Industry till date.
I don't think you know what 'synergy' means. I don't see ny sign of it in your anecdote.
Quote
I am sure that collective effort of any team is not a fad, but a reality that can change the fortune of any companies.
Of course it's not a fad, it's almost self-defining. The trick though is how you create it. It's no good just babbling on about how great it is to build a team. What one needs is guidance on how to build it, which is far from an easy task, and not helped by managers throwing their weight about.
Quote
Here is what Jack Welch has to say
Yes he talks the talk. Welch was on the whole a very successful businessman. But Welch was, on the whole, not a great manager. The company he toook over was already doing well when he took over. Most of its subsequent growth was due to takeover, which doesn't demand managerial skills.


-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 07:54
What I fail to see here is that either management has lost it relavance with regards to setting high standards and values as some poster think so, but in reality no organisation can ever survive if the people who work there are deviod of "High Standard & Values", Leadership is and will be the primary reason for driving people to perform better. While accepting the fact the Good leader is one who manages the least it is because the team will be the eyes and ears for him and it is necessary for him to have highly motivated and efficient staff.
Here are some quotes on leadershp which is self explanatory.
To lead people, walk beside them ... As for the best leaders, the people do not notice their existence. The next best, the people honor and praise. The next, the people fear; and the next, the people hate ... When the best leader's work is done the people say, 'We did it ourselves!'"
— Lao-tsu
"Dictators ride to and fro upon tigers which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry."
— Winston Churchill


"Control is not leadership; management is not leadership; leadership is leadership. If you seek to lead, invest at least 50% of your time in leading yourself—your own purpose, ethics, principles, motivation, conduct. Invest at least 20% leading those with authority over you and 15% leading your peers."
— Dee Hock
Founder and CEO Emeritus, Visa


"All of the great leaders have had one characteristic in common: it was the willingness to confront unequivocally the major anxiety of their people in their time. This, and not much else, is the essence of leadership."
— John Kenneth Galbraith


"If a rhinoceros were to enter this restaurant now, there is no denying he would have great power here. But I should be the first to rise and assure him that he had no authority whatever."
— G.K. Chesterton to Alexander Woollcott


"The task of the leader is to get his people from where they are to where they have not been."
— Henry Kissinger


"No institution can possibly survive if it needs geniuses or supermen to manage it. It must be organized in such a way as to be able to get along under a leadership composed of average human beings."
— Peter Drucker
 
I dont think there is any team in the world who has not lost a single match, victory and defeat are part and parcel of any sport.  Here Bhagavat Gita  says, one should take both Victory and defeat in equanimity and it is very valid. One should not get exicted when one wins and at the same time one should not feel let down if he is defeated. Life should go on. 




-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 08:06
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

"The more I talk about me I talk about We" Jack welch(Chairman GE,
Jac Welch fired every year 10% of his management, irrespectivbe of how well the company was doing. So much for that great old 'team spirit'. Jack Welch epitomises the return since 1980 of management led, not from the front, not from helping his managers and workers from any kind of enrichment, but simply by fear of being fired in a depressed econmic situation..
Quote  
 
I was told by a poser that the rational of Management princples have changed over the years, but with this quote from Jack Welch I think the only change that is visible is" Old wine in New Bottle". The principle of team effort and spirit will bring in synergic output and no organisation can ignore be-little team spirit.
What do you mean by 'team spirit'? In a successful team you don't actually need a team leader because each member of a successful team does his own job: the leader is essentially a communicator, a connection point, and a motivator where one is necessary. In that situation team 'spirit' i.e. pride in being part of the team is engendered and of course it is invaluable.
However, you don't achieve that by trying to show you can do everybody else's job better than they can, which is what you were suggesting earlier.
Quote
Indian Team won the world cup twice, again the it is sense of team spirit, that made the players put in the extra effort, and the world cup by theirs.
And they just got slaughtered by England. 4-0 and twice by an innings.
Quote Victory & Defeat are part and parcel of the Game, I think when I say something you get some thing negative about it, why are we talking about England series, we are are talking about Leadership and Team Spirit & the Synergic out put it produces.
Similarly we can cite thousands of examples wherein the employe'ssense of belonging is the reason for any successful organisation . Infosys the Indian IT giant offers ESOPS(EMPLOYEE STOCK OPTIONS) and we all know that from a humble beggning now it is formidable IT company respected world over.
There are plenty of examples wiere a company with stock options failed. I worked for one myself. WorldCom was another. So of course was Enron.
 
Quote I am so sorry that it failed in your organisation, the probable reason might be you and your team might have been working as tangents and not in tandem and Introspection will throw light as to why organisation failed.Wink
Some years back I read a story of Hampton Inn, an a economy hotel in the United States, where the managment practices was not good and hence the business went down and the owners of Hampton wanted to appoint a New CEO, which they did.  On taking charge of the hotel he offered a scheme to all its customers, the scheme was "if any customer who checks in to the hotels has any problem which is not resolved to his satisfaction will be offered one additional night free". and to drive his employees to work harder in convened a meeting of all of them and told them that there will be no question asked if any employess is doing things that will make the customer happy within his ability even if it means swapping roles for the moment and towards the end of this year there will be an apprisal which will take stock of your role during this period offer especially it my baby and I will have to stand by my offer even if it means additional burden, and I am sure that you will not let a cutomer take an additional stay, with this he closed his speech.
Smart move I grant you, since no-one who is having a bad experience at a hotel will take them up on the offer of an extra night. However, the guy thought up the scheme himself, dictated it to his workers, who presumably sat back and said (quietly) "Oh, yeah!", and threatened them with punitive action if they didn't shape up. Not the world's most successful recipe for building a teak of happy campers.
Quote  
The synergy infused on the staff was such the service levels went so high which is unparleled in the Service Industry till date.
I don't think you know what 'synergy' means. I don't see ny sign of it in your anecdote.
Quote Definitions and usages

 Synergy is,In the context of organizational behavior, following the view that a cohesive group is more than the sum of its parts, synergy is the ability of a group to outperform even its best individual member. These conclusions are derived from the studies conducted by Jay Hall on a number of laboratory-based group ranking and prediction tasks. He found that effective groups actively looked for the points in which they disagreed and in consequence encouraged conflicts amongst the participants in the early stages of the discussion. In contrast, the ineffective groups felt a need to establish a common view quickly, used simple decision making methods such as averaging, and focused on completing the task rather than on finding solutions they could agree on.

In a technical context, its meaning is a construct or collection of different elements working together to produce results not obtainable by any of the elements alone. The elements, or parts, can include people, hardware, software, facilities, policies, documents: all things required to produce system-level results. The value added by the system as a whole, beyond that contributed independently by the parts, is primarily created by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship" rel="nofollow - relationship among the parts; that is, how they are interconnected. In essence, a system constitutes a set of interrelated components working together with a common objective: fulfilling some designated need.

I am sure that collective effort of any team is not a fad, but a reality that can change the fortune of any companies.
Of course it's not a fad, it's almost self-defining. The trick though is how you create it. It's no good just babbling on about how great it is to build a team. What one needs is guidance on how to build it, which is far from an easy task, and not helped by managers throwing their weight about.
Quote
Here is what Jack Welch has to say
Yes he talks the talk. Welch was on the whole a very successful businessman. But Welch was, on the whole, not a great manager. The company he toook over was already doing well when he took over. Most of its subsequent growth was due to takeover, which doesn't demand managerial skills.


-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 08:14
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

What in tarnation does Wicked Witch Welch have to do with either History or Management other than exemplify the practices and stylistic piracy thet eventually led to the Crash of 2008!?! If we are to discuss this personification of Gordon Gecko as an example of the Bhagavad Gita in business practice, you would have to convert this Forum into an infomercial on the qualities of greed and callousness. As for INFOSYS, leveraging information technology is hardly what one would identify as a divinely inspired pursuit and no amount of crapola is going to disguise that its pricipal function is to provide "cheap labor" in the realm of information services to international institutions determined to "cut costs" come hell-or-high water. Of course, if one is highly cynical one can easily conclude that its introduction here is but another facet of nationalism running amok.
You call everything which goes aganist your line of thinking as wicked, while you are talking nationalism running amok I do agree, it is your thinking which is confirned to the confines of narrow nationalism, while you profess thinking with Global perspective but what you write about others shows your true colour.  When I mention infosys I had also metioned GE, I am not biased but you are.  We are not talking about technology in the first case, I am trying to find out whether Bhagvat Gita has any significance in Todays Management Thoughts even remotely ?. At the end of the discussion I may agree that it has no significance as I am open, but on your part you have formed your mind not to agree even to rationalist thoughts. That does not augur well in a forum.Smile

-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 08:21
I think during the vedic period there was no division of labour based on Varna, but it was the period of Manu Smiriti that brought about division of labour based on Caste.  I dont think it is prevalant in India today, but cultural continuity cannot be over ruled, as son taking up father's profession is prevalant in India. Things are changing.
 
What was preached during Manu Smiriti has been challenged by yagnavalkya Smiriti but to say the truth, both of them agree on some parameter which doesnt go well with the rational taught process.  I think even America did have slaves, but it was totally eradicated. Now that the lower caste are empowered they can assert themselves.  I dont know whether many of you know, It is a non bailable offence to use the term" Dalit "(LOW CASTE).


-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 08:36

The highly sansritised text and parrot like narration of Mantras whose meaning were not understood by people did not appeal to them, whereas in Bhudism was preached in Pali the local langauage and it had mass appeal, as the rules of the same were simple and easy to understand as compared to the Vedas.

There is no doubt the learned (or Brahmans as you may name them) did take advantage of it, infact absued the system to such an extent that Bhudism took over which is true. The Statement made by you on how it revived is not right, The Adi Shankara was the one who revived Hinduism and it is not because of the conquest of Muslim ruler.


-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 11:26
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

What I fail to see here is that either management has lost it relavance with regards to setting high standards and values as some poster think so, but in reality no organisation can ever survive if the people who work there are deviod of "High Standard & Values", Leadership is and will be the primary reason for driving people to perform better.
That's just circular. If people perform better for some reason jou just say 'that's leaderhsip'. What you don't do is define 'leadership' as is obvious from the quote from Dee Hock. (I don't have anything against Hock, but he did not have much of a role as a manager, rather than as a smart businessman who guessed right at the right moment. Mostly he talks what sounds like sense to me, but his notion of 'leadership' is miles different from what you describe. Itseems to mean only 'manipulation')
Quote
While accepting the fact the Good leader is one who manages the least
Trivial sound bite. and not true either. 'Managing the least' is as bad a qualification as 'managing the most'.
Quote
 it is because the team will be the eyes and ears for him and it is necessary for him to have highly motivated and efficient staff.
Sounds a rather dictatorial viewpoint.
Quote
Here are some quotes on leadershp which is self explanatory.
To lead people, walk beside them ... As for the best leaders, the people do not notice their existence. The next best, the people honor and praise. The next, the people fear; and the next, the people hate ... When the best leader's work is done the people say, 'We did it ourselves!'"
— Lao-tsu
The best leader and the best manager is the one who achieved the goals he sets for himself (which of course doesn't mean he is the best subordinate). How he does it is up to him and his circumstances and the resources he has available. There are no easy generalisations.
Quote
"Dictators ride to and fro upon tigers which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry."
— Winston Churchill

Not a bad Churchillism. However Churchill is pointing out the flaws in your concept of a good manager/leader, not supporting them. Looking at the management problem with the eyes of an autocrat pretty well guarantees inefficiency, at least in the modern world.
The rest of the quotes you give are just a ragbag of assertions based on very different ideas of leadership. I like the Kissinger for its simplicity but like the Galbraith it merely describes the task of the 'leader' and doesn't go into the 'how' of it. Drucker's point is a good one, that goes against all you have been saying. The Chesterton has nothing to do with 'leadership' at all, thouigh it is a typically witty Chestertonian distinction between power and authority.
 
Quote
"Control is not leadership; management is not leadership; leadership is leadership. If you seek to lead, invest at least 50% of your time in leading yourself—your own purpose, ethics, principles, motivation, conduct. Invest at least 20% leading those with authority over you and 15% leading your peers."
— Dee Hock
Founder and CEO Emeritus, Visa


"All of the great leaders have had one characteristic in common: it was the willingness to confront unequivocally the major anxiety of their people in their time. This, and not much else, is the essence of leadership."
— John Kenneth Galbraith


"If a rhinoceros were to enter this restaurant now, there is no denying he would have great power here. But I should be the first to rise and assure him that he had no authority whatever."
— G.K. Chesterton to Alexander Woollcott


"The task of the leader is to get his people from where they are to where they have not been."
— Henry Kissinger


"No institution can possibly survive if it needs geniuses or supermen to manage it. It must be organized in such a way as to be able to get along under a leadership composed of average human beings."
— Peter Drucker
 
I dont think there is any team in the world who has not lost a single match, victory and defeat are part and parcel of any sport.  Here Bhagavat Gita  says, one should take both Victory and defeat in equanimity and it is very valid. One should not get exicted when one wins and at the same time one should not feel let down if he is defeated. Life should go on. 




-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 13:54
The modern Management Guru's talks about Leadership could be easily related to the teaching of Bhagavat Gita as text on Karma talks about ones responsibility of the leader as that of the driver of action and all action that emantes out of his command should be treated as his action. A good leader does not take credit for only success but also takes the responsiblity of his teams failure.
 
Here are some quotes by Modern guru which could be compared to the teaching in Bhagavat Gita.
Checking the results of a decision against its expectations shows executives what their strengths are, where they need to improve, and where they lack knowledge or information.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/peterdruck173386.html" rel="nofollow - Peter Drucker

Company cultures are like country cultures. Never try to change one. Try, instead, to work with what you've got.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/peterdruck130601.html" rel="nofollow - Peter Drucker

Effective leadership is not about making speeches or being liked; leadership is defined by results not attributes.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/peterdruck121706.html" rel="nofollow - Peter Drucker

The best point I could see in these quote by peter Drucker is that he is companies culture to that of countries culture which is very valid, instead of changing them work with it.


 
 


-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 16:24
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

The modern Management Guru's talks about Leadership could be easily related to the teaching of Bhagavat Gita as text on Karma talks about ones responsibility of the leader as that of the driver of action and all action that emantes out of his command should be treated as his action. A good leader does not take credit for only success but also takes the responsiblity of his teams failure.
What makes you think that any of that isn't and hasn't been widely accepted without the Bhagavad Gita ever entering into their awareness? I'd differ over the questiion of the 'leader' being the 'driver of action' though. You don't 'drive' people except in the minds of people wanting to ee themselves as macho alpha males. Which is probably the last thing you want in a manager. (Incidentally that's somewhat different from having a reputation for being successful with women - which, I forgot to point out earlier, was notoriously true of Jack Welch).
 
Drucker is a reasonable analyser: h^just quoting some of his remarks and saying they could be compared to somethingor other in the Gita doesn't mean anything.
 
But note the last of his three quotes. It's exactly what I said earlier. Good managers are those who get good results no matter how. About the only common factor involved is that a good manager shouldn't believe he knows the way to 'lead people'.
Quote  
Here are some quotes by Modern guru which could be compared to the teaching in Bhagavat Gita.
Checking the results of a decision against its expectations shows executives what their strengths are, where they need to improve, and where they lack knowledge or information.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/peterdruck173386.html" rel="nofollow - Peter Drucker

Company cultures are like country cultures. Never try to change one. Try, instead, to work with what you've got.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/peterdruck130601.html" rel="nofollow - Peter Drucker

Effective leadership is not about making speeches or being liked; leadership is defined by results not attributes.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/p/peterdruck121706.html" rel="nofollow - Peter Drucker

The best point I could see in these quote by peter Drucker is that he is companies culture to that of countries culture which is very valid, instead of changing them work with it.


 
 


-------------
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2011 at 16:29
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

You call everything which goes aganist your line of thinking as wicked, while you are talking nationalism running amok I do agree, it is your thinking which is confirned to the confines of narrow nationalism, while you profess thinking with Global perspective but what you write about others shows your true colour.  When I mention infosys I had also metioned GE, I am not biased but you are.  We are not talking about technology in the first case, I am trying to find out whether Bhagvat Gita has any significance in Todays Management Thoughts even remotely ?. At the end of the discussion I may agree that it has no significance as I am open, but on your part you have formed your mind not to agree even to rationalist thoughts. That does not augur well in a forum.Smile
 
"My line of thinking"? I am afraid that the only one pandering to a line of thought here, albeit with more Zig Zag than any corner vendor of drug paraphernalia, comes from the distended attempt to link a complex group of composite writings attempting the metaphysical as a guide book to business success! Scattered quotes from Peter Drucker, the father of the How To genre in business publishing and the nonsense that one has to have a management degree to be successful at business, is far from what any rational mind might assert as historical proof! Of course, in quoting Drucker there was a bit of hypocrisy involved, given his own declaration over "gurus" and management: "I have been saying for many years that we are using the guru only because charlatan is too big to fit into a headline."! [Business Review Weekly, 15 September 1997, p. 48-49]. Are we now going to discuss the social ecology of salesmanship?
 
Let's cut to the chase here, what you are attempting is rank abuse of historical methodology and compounding the crime by appeals to out-of-context quotes and blatant misinformation [Drucker was good at that all on his own] but hey, are we going to discuss the fuhrer priciple and the art of "managing people" so as to access power in business? If "calling you out" over these ridiculous machinations is an act of "wickedness" so be it. How does that old Western aphorism go..."even the devil can quote scripture"?
 
 


-------------
Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 06:59
“Better indeed is knowledge than mechanical practice. Better than knowledge is meditation. But better still is surrender of attachment to results, because there follows immediate peace.(Bhgavat Gita).
Here it is amply clear that doing one jobs creatively is better than doing Job that is assigned with the focus on the objetivity of the job in Hand. Otherwise Monotony syndorome will set it. The motive of any business is profit but profit should be come through right path and end should not determine the means.
I am not sure why a the Doctor is quoting scriptures and his finishing touch best suits his mindset.
"The devil should not quote scripture".
This is yet an another quote from Bhagvat Gita. "Do your duty and never worry about the result" for result out of dedicated and consistent effort is bound to come.
The modern thoughts on management lays great emphasis on "Emotional Quotient" while determing best Management Practices which is emphasised in Bhagavat Gita. I have no doubts in my mind that some of the thoughts that is there in the book calls for a larger debate if we are to enquire its significance in todays management practices.


-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 07:08
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

You call everything which goes aganist your line of thinking as wicked, while you are talking nationalism running amok I do agree, it is your thinking which is confirned to the confines of narrow nationalism, while you profess thinking with Global perspective but what you write about others shows your true colour.  When I mention infosys I had also metioned GE, I am not biased but you are.  We are not talking about technology in the first case, I am trying to find out whether Bhagvat Gita has any significance in Todays Management Thoughts even remotely ?. At the end of the discussion I may agree that it has no significance as I am open, but on your part you have formed your mind not to agree even to rationalist thoughts. That does not augur well in a forum.Smile
 
"My line of thinking"? I am afraid that the only one pandering to a line of thought here, albeit with more Zig Zag than any corner vendor of drug paraphernalia, comes from the distended attempt to link a complex group of composite writings attempting the metaphysical as a guide book to business success! Scattered quotes from Peter Drucker, the father of the How To genre in business publishing and the nonsense that one has to have a management degree to be successful at business, is far from what any rational mind might assert as historical proof! Of course, in quoting Drucker there was a bit of hypocrisy involved, given his own declaration over "gurus" and management: "I have been saying for many years that we are using the guru only because charlatan is too big to fit into a headline."! [Business Review Weekly, 15 September 1997, p. 48-49]. Are we now going to discuss the social ecology of salesmanship?
 
Let's cut to the chase here, what you are attempting is rank abuse of historical methodology and compounding the crime by appeals to out-of-context quotes and blatant misinformation [Drucker was good at that all on his own] but hey, are we going to discuss the fuhrer priciple and the art of "managing people" so as to access power in business? If "calling you out" over these ridiculous machinations is an act of "wickedness" so be it. How does that old Western aphorism go..."even the devil can quote scripture"?
 
 
Just as a fire is covered by smoke and a mirror is obscured by dust, just as the embryo rests deep within the womb, wisdom is hidden by selfish desire.”would simply quote this text from Bhagavat Gita which suits you so much " I sooner you come out it it is better for you.

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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: Srinath Naivaruni
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 07:13

The simple and straight forward question of the post is 'whether  the Bhagavad Gita  is relavant to  corporate governance, War management ( better expressed, the principle of warfare), and self management.

Most of the ancient books of wisdom contain some principles that seek to guide humanity in its onward course . Now , whether these principles  are relevant  to the present  is debatable, given the fact that  they are circumscribed by the context in which they  were written and are embellished by the  views and  experiences of  the writer.  However it  cannot be disputed that , in them , are enshrined ,certain principles that have stood the test of time and  are relevant  whatever be  the  age that  approaches them for guidance.
 
The Bhagavad Gita has limited  importance as a book on principles of management, given the fact that  the ultimate aim of the book is spiritual ( the essence of which is beyond the  discussion of this thread).  However if  at all some importance is to be assigned to it, it comes from the leadership style  that   can be discerned in it.   We can see in it a  'Transformational Leadership style'.
 
Coming to  the principle of warfare, its importance lies in the fact that its basic premise is that  the  ends if ethical, justify the means ,that  a soldier should fight  without regard to his prejudices and  personal considerations  and that the casue of humanity is much more important than all personal considerations.
 
The importance of the book lies in its  approach to self management.  It attempts ( successfully) to delve into the  complexity of human  individuality  and guide it  to achieve a  synthesis with the universal.


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"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 07:41
Of what profit all this needless chatter all that is required to approach the subject of business and management can be learned from an interesting 16th century text by Thomas Tusser, Five Hundred Points of Good Husbandry--"A foole and his money be soon at debate: which after with sorrow repent him too late".
How about rewriting Al Jolson's take on Stephen Foster's tune, "Old Folks at Home': Swami, how I love you, how I love you, my dear old Swami...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB5_FScm41Q" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB5_FScm41Q
 


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 09:52
If Thomas Tusser , Five Hundred Points of Good Husbandry is good enough for a discussion on Management , Wlhy not !.  The music on the You Tube was good one as Humour quotient was missing in this thread.  I am sure with you around there cannot be a scope for a dull moment.

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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 10:20
Satire is usually the sharpest and quickest critique when unsustainable argumentation is proferred. To begin with there is nothing remotely associated with Natural History in the Bhagavad Gita and by the admission that what is sought is personal application of spirituality, are we to conclude the presence of spirit in plants and animals or rock formations? How such relates to anything as vaguely quantifiable as Transformational Leadership Style borders on the Carrollesque as "confessed" here:
 
http://www.legacee.com/Info/Leadership/LeaderResources.html#definitions" rel="nofollow - http://www.legacee.com/Info/Leadership/LeaderResources.html#definitions
 
Jargonized rationalizations as sales pitches are humorous all on their own but therein clarity is hardly an objective!
 
By the way there is a more appropriate thread on this Forum for all of this tom-foolery--
 
http://www.worldhistoria.com/management-fads_topic125454.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.worldhistoria.com/management-fads_topic125454.html


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 10:34
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

“Better indeed is knowledge than mechanical practice. Better than knowledge is meditation. But better still is surrender of attachment to results, because there follows immediate peace.(Bhgavat Gita).
Morally that may be correct. Psychologically it may be correct. As a way of life it may be ideal. As a maxim in management/business it's nonsense. In management if you're not attached to results, you lose.
Quote
Here it is amply clear that doing one jobs creatively is better than doing Job that is assigned with the focus on the objetivity of the job in Hand. Otherwise Monotony syndorome will set it. The motive of any business is profit but profit should be come through right path and end should not determine the means.
Same comment. What you're preaching here is simiply morality. Management lessons must be just as valid for Nazis or criminaly as they are for anyone else; otherwise there just platitudes on how to live the good life (in the eyes of the preacher).
Quote  
I am not sure why a the Doctor is quoting scriptures and his finishing touch best suits his mindset.
"The devil should not quote scripture".
Because you are quoting scriptures. This whole thread you started is about quoting scriptures. In the very next sentence you quote them again - what do you think 'scriptures' are?
Quote
This is yet an another quote from Bhagvat Gita. "Do your duty and never worry about the result" for result out of dedicated and consistent effort is bound to come.
Did you ever consider emigrating to the real world?
 
Forty-odd years ago Herman Kahn told me that India could be a world power (as he predicted Japan and China would be) 'if it wanted to', but basically it didn't want to. You seem to be exemplifying the problems Kah foresaw.
Quote
The modern thoughts on management lays great emphasis on "Emotional Quotient" while determing best Management Practices which is emphasised in Bhagavat Gita. I have no doubts in my mind that some of the thoughts that is there in the book calls for a larger debate if we are to enquire its significance in todays management practices.
You seem to have read an article  or two and swallowed everythinig literally. The whole 'emotional intelligence' thing is a mish-mash of extravagant claims and scientific flaws with an occasional insight blown up to its bursting point. It certainly isn't anything to do with 'best management practices' insofar as there are any definable 'best management principles' at all. 


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 10:59
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

The simple and straight forward question of the post is 'whether  the Bhagavad Gita  is relavant to  corporate governance, War management ( better expressed, the principle of warfare), and self management.

Most of the ancient books of wisdom contain some principles that seek to guide humanity in its onward course . Now , whether these principles  are relevant  to the present  is debatable, given the fact that  they are circumscribed by the context in which they  were written and are embellished by the  views and  experiences of  the writer.  However it  cannot be disputed that , in them , are enshrined ,certain principles that have stood the test of time and  are relevant  whatever be  the  age that  approaches them for guidance.
That is certainly true in the moral sphere, often true in the sphere of human motivations, and has value in the general achievement of human happiness.
 
It is not true of modern business management or for that matter any other management, primatily because there has been considerable shift in human motivation as expressed in practice, thaks to the vastly increased standard of material wealth and security. The 'lessons' quoted therefore tand to be unrealistic in the modern world, and if adopted would drag management back into the dire days of poverty.
 
In India and China it may well be true that the deprived masses react in the way there anestors would have sme thosands of years ago. I don't know. But it's cetain that the working and middle classes of the West don't, and it's just as true that if and when substantial achievement in wealth comes about, the people will stop reacting that way (as has been seen in Japan, and I gather is also being seen in South Korea).
Quote  
The Bhagavad Gita has limited  importance as a book on principles of management, given the fact that  the ultimate aim of the book is spiritual ( the essence of which is beyond the  discussion of this thread).  However if  at all some importance is to be assigned to it, it comes from the leadership style  that   can be discerned in it.   We can see in it a  'Transformational Leadership style'.
Well, I agree that the book itself is outside the scope of this thread. But I wish you would not use somewhat meaningless jargon as if it did other than disguise a useless set of observations. 'Transformational Leadership' defines one particuar type of good leader, but comes down in the end to merely a continual restatement of the assertion that a good leader is a good leader. Levi-Strauss did better than that.
Quote  
 
Coming to  the principle of warfare, its importance lies in the fact that its basic premise is that  the  ends if ethical, justify the means ,that  a soldier should fight  without regard to his prejudices and  personal considerations  and that the casue of humanity is much more important than all personal considerations.
The western liberal tradiition is of course that the end never justifies the means, which is one reason your attitude comes over as totalitarian. And of course that same tradition holds that  following orders is no excuse: personal considerations of conscience should override loyalty to the leadership, another reason why your views conflict with tthe principles of liberal democracy.
Quote  
The importance of the book lies in its  approach to self management.  It attempts ( successfully) to delve into the  complexity of human  individuality  and guide it  to achieve a  synthesis with the universal.
I don't disagree the importance (though 'successfully' is a matter of opinion), but I'd suggest that the greater importance of the book, as with most such texts, is how it defines the goals that one should seek through self-management. (Whether such goals are good or bad is of course irrelevant to their importance.)


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Srinath Naivaruni
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 11:53

"You should never assume contempt for that which it is not very manifest that you have it in your power to possess, nor does a wit ever make a more contemptible figure than when, in attempting satire, he shows that he does not understand that which he would make the subject of his ridicule. "----Lord  Melbourne

While not attempting a definition of  spirituality ( or the Bhagavad Gita's take on it) which would be out of sync with this  light hearted banter, spirituality can also be extended to mean the presence of the eternal spirit  within  the cup of   Omar Khayyam.Wink


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"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"


Posted By: Srinath Naivaruni
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 12:41

It has been clearly pointed out in my post that the application of these principles in the present context is debatable given the  distance in time and difference in circumstances.

However there are some precepts of wisdom in all ancient books that are universally applicable( regardless of the field of activity).  For example  ' focus on goals' stressed by the Gita,  the 'stress on morality' in the Bible--these are applicable to all fields of human endeavour.
 
If  in  the western liberal tradition the end did not justify the means, one is compelled to wonder about the justification for the use of the little boy and the fat man or the crusades for that matter.
 
The state of an army where the soldiers are guided by personal considerations of conscience, to say the least would be precarious. Democracy is good  in politics. However if the army was to function on democratic principles with  freedom to follow one's conscience ,it is very much doubtful whether such  an army would  fight a battle,  let alone win it.


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"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 12:48
If we want to be fair, all ancient books have some degree of wisdom. The Bible, the Vedas, the Tao Te King, the Illiad and Oddysey, the native American beliefs, etc. The question is why to choose one system and forget about the others.


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 14:00
I have not said we should discuss only Management with relavance to Bhagavat Gita only, But the name is suggested by me to open the thread to find out whether is it possible to link the ancient widsom of Gita to present day management practices. I think we can discuss other books of relavence like Bible, Tumuld, Koran or Zen for that matter.
 
Iwill  take it with a tinch of salt if somebody is to tell all statement are absolute nonsense, as I feel if you are critical of everything that is been said on any book or statement by people, you are limiting your inteligence to criticism ONLY, one should try and dig deep into the thought process and find out reason behind statement to derive meaning.
 
No modern Management can exclude Emotional Quotient which is such a relavant topic , special session are conducted accross companies to bring in sensitivity amongst Top Management to included emotional quotient in their day to day affairs, as employee retention is such a huge task today.
I agree if one is to go by Management of the early seventies or eighties EQ was missing for such people it is time to go back to school again to understand Modern Management Practices. I was personally there for a session at P&G where 60% of the time was spent of EQ.


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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 16:02
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

It has been clearly pointed out in my post that the application of these principles in the present context is debatable given the  distance in time and difference in circumstances.

However there are some precepts of wisdom in all ancient books that are universally applicable( regardless of the field of activity).  For example  ' focus on goals' stressed by the Gita,  the 'stress on morality' in the Bible--these are applicable to all fields of human endeavour.
 
If  in  the western liberal tradition the end did not justify the means, one is compelled to wonder about the justification for the use of the little boy and the fat man or the crusades for that matter.
I don't know what you mean by the 'little boy and the fat man'. The crusades, however, were hardly liberal or for that matter democratic. Nor was there much morality about them.
Quote  
The state of an army where the soldiers are guided by personal considerations of conscience, to say the least would be precarious. Democracy is good  in politics. However if the army was to function on democratic principles with  freedom to follow one's conscience ,it is very much doubtful whether such  an army would  fight a battle,  let alone win it.
Precarious, possibly. Morally it wold be superior however. It has nothing however to do with democracy, merely that a soldier who does what he is told to do is just as accountable for it as the person who issues the order.
However, even from a pecariousness point of view, people who are ordered to do things against their conscience don't execute the orders efficiently or effectively anyway.
Moroever if all armies were to refuse to fight a battle, wouldn't that be a vast improvement? And democracy eventually depends entirely on armies following their consciences, rether than their orders: cf what's happeniing in Libya right now.  


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2011 at 16:34
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

I have not said we should discuss only Management with relavance to Bhagavat Gita only, But the name is suggested by me to open the thread to find out whether is it possible to link the ancient widsom of Gita to present day management practices. I think we can discuss other books of relavence like Bible, Tumuld, Koran or Zen for that matter.
 
Iwill  take it with a tinch of salt if somebody is to tell all statement are absolute nonsense, as I feel if you are critical of everything that is been said on any book or statement by people, you are limiting your inteligence to criticism ONLY, one should try and dig deep into the thought process and find out reason behind statement to derive meaning.
 
No modern Management can exclude Emotional Quotient which is such a relavant topic , special session are conducted accross companies to bring in sensitivity amongst Top Management to included emotional quotient in their day to day affairs, as employee retention is such a huge task today.
People have been organising 'sensitiity training' among companies all over the place for decades. The one thing they mostly have in common is they don't work. (Occasionally I thinkk T-groups, by whatever name they have gone from time to time, have had some effect, just as group therapy for alcoholism and such have a reasonable record.)
 
Otherwise I can only repeat what I have said before elsewhere:
Quote Not that I intend to preach any particular techniques [for changing behaviour]. Given my choice of weapons I think I would usually pick drugs and hypnosis, but they tend to be ruled out in normal managerial circumstances. But there are a few necessary ground rules. The basic one is to recognise that human beings are not rational creatures. Their behaviour is not rationally motivated, even if it can be rationally 'explained'.
It is of little use therefore to attempt to change anyone's behaviour by rational argument. It may be possible to convince him that what he believes is wrong, and what he does is silly. But it wil merely change his verbal behaviour. In future he will apologise for what he has done, but he will still do it.
 
Quote
I agree if one is to go by Management of the early seventies or eighties EQ was missing for such people
'Emotional intelligence' as a phrase has been around since the 'sixties at least, and traces back to earlier attempts to extend the idea of the intelligence quotient - itself of course frequently misused. Every passing fad has its adherents - even Synanon - and they all fade away. The idea of 'emotional intelligence' has been comprehensively debunked since its 'eighties heyday. For an unusually polite contradiction of it see the abstract at least at http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/75/4/989/" rel="nofollow - http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/75/4/989/
or check out what Eysenck had to say in wikipedia.  
Quote it is time to go back to school again to understand Modern Management Practices. I was personally there for a session at P&G where 60% of the time was spent of EQ.
You wasted the 60%, unless you weren't paying attention.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2011 at 06:17
I was really surprised that a notification on this thread stating writing access denied, I feel there must be a reason to it, at least information if this thread is closed down. It was removed from the list and shown as a topic which is hidden. It is just a observation and not a complaint aganist anybody.

-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: Srinath Naivaruni
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2011 at 07:00
The little boy and fat man were the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. My question was  ' how does the liberal western tradition    account for  the use of   atomic bombs on Japan unless the  end justified the means?
How does the liberal western tradition justify the invasion of Iraq or for that matter  the west's  approach to the middle east (specifically Palestine).
 
As far as I know  morality in warfare is a  utopian dream.  No war has ever been fought morally.  If the pricks of conscience were to affect the  efficiency or effectiveness of a soldier, I am very much doubtful  whether  any battle in the annals of human history would have been won at all.
 
It is grander utopian dream that armies would refuse  to fight battles. I perfectly agree with you that there would be a vast improvement in the overall scheme of things---It is another matter that both us will be arrested  by our respective governments on charges of sedition.Smile 


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"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2011 at 07:30
Even in war, there was some amount discipline that was followed such as there will be no attacks after dusk, nobody kills civilians, or places of worship or Markets etc., during the ancient age and such war were called Dharma Yudha. This is what Management in War is all about, that is what is missing now.
The war on Iraq is a biggest example of it. A nation which was thriving was unnecessary pulled into a fight and bombed indiscrimately. Here Bhgavat Gita says war can be only waged when ADHARMA TAKES OVER DHARMA(when evil takes over all Good).
Trancendental wisdom is a must for Rajan(KING and in todays parlance the Ruled).The Countries are to uphold noble Virtues.  Again Objective Mind and subjective Mind is what is being taught here, one should not be driven by greed or power or for plenty.
 
Global Age calls for mutual concern and mutual existenance, whether it is business, trade or even country.  I have seen in this thread that some fear has been expressed India & China taking over number uno position from the West etc., no just here we could see this fear in President Obama statement that watch out INDIA will take over in education etc.,  This is unfounded even if this has to be true, why should people with Global perpective in mind should fear ?.  I was really impressed by President Obama speech which included these words which I feel are is Just."DREAMS ARE SINGULAR BUT THE RESULTS OF THOSE DREAMS ARE ALWAYS SHARED".
We are on the portal of a big change in terms of "positioning in almost all International Forum"  INDIA in particular and Asia in general will have to be there if these forums are to be effective.  Any forum minus India cannot be effective.
It is our Ancient Wisdom that keeps us grounded always, Look at India after Independence Vis sa Vis Pakistan, while India is on the forefront in almost every feild of activities, Pakistan has emerged as a banana republic.
Let us analyse just one fact which will substantiate my arguement, The free India embraced 'NON ALINMENT " PAKISTAN was with United States". like wise we can cite hundreds of example.
The West has been credited with Mastery on Management Science, early writer has always been from United States like Prof  Adam Smith etc., But look at the way they have managed War Funds in Iraq and Afganistan, yesterday report on the same makes one wonder about the rationale of such a large abuse of Tax Payers monies.  I was told that United States Pays ransom in Afganistan
and Iraq to enimies like Taliban & Al-queda through their contracter to transport Food & Amunitions and if these were to be true.  Is this the "STANDARDS OF MANAGEMENT THEY HAVE ?.


-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2011 at 11:23

Further to the discussion ,I would like to place this web link of the author who has personally written  to me to give him an assesment of his work. I would request all the members of this forum to visit his web page and post your comments. This budding author inspite of his work schedule has taken time out to write this book, 

I trust that the esteemed members of this forum will give him the encouragement by giving him both positives and negatives of his work which will motivate him to write better.
www.cincinnatitemple.com/articles/BhagavadGitaManagement.pdf -
 
Alas who know's how many such works would not have seen the light. I qutoe from Thomas Grey's unforgetable words
"FULL MANY A GEM OF PUREST RAY SERENE,
LAY DARK UNFATHOMED CASE OF OCEAN BEAR,
FULL MANY A FLOWER HAS BORN TO BLESH UNSEEN AND WASTE'S ITS SWEETNESS ON THE DESERT
AIR".
 
 


-------------
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2011 at 14:44
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

I was really surprised that a notification on this thread stating writing access denied, I feel there must be a reason to it, at least information if this thread is closed down. It was removed from the list and shown as a topic which is hidden. It is just a observation and not a complaint aganist anybody.
This was caused by a bug in the new software, and has now - hopefully - been corrected. If you had imediately posted the same thing again it would have been accepted. It's been happening randomly to everyone, including moderators.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2011 at 16:54
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

The little boy and fat man were the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. My question was  ' how does the liberal western tradition    account for  the use of   atomic bombs on Japan unless the  end justified the means?
How does the liberal western tradition justify the invasion of Iraq or for that matter  the west's  approach to the middle east (specifically Palestine).
The implication is that the end is insufficient to justify the means. But I agree it could be clearer than it is in the proverbial version. However it is not meant to imply that the results do not justify the means: the 'end' means the 'intent'.
With regard to Hiroshima/Nagasaki it means that if you think in the first place that dropping the bombs was wrong, then why you were dropping them is irrelevant.
 
For a brief discussion to the point which is inherently insolvable except subjetivels cf http://www.aeriagloris.com/UnrestrictedWarfare/TheEndJustifiesTheMeans.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.aeriagloris.com/UnrestrictedWarfare/TheEndJustifiesTheMeans.htm
Quote  
As far as I know  morality in warfare is a  utopian dream.  No war has ever been fought morally.  If the pricks of conscience were to affect the  efficiency or effectiveness of a soldier, I am very much doubtful  whether  any battle in the annals of human history would have been won at all.
Then no battle in human history would have been fought. That would be a bad thing? In effect making the soldier realise he is reponsible for his own acts (whether for ethical reasons or for self-preservation) goes against dictatorship: dictators can't be efficient if they have to justify their actioons to their followers.
[/QUOTE] 
It is grander utopian dream that armies would refuse  to fight battles. I perfectly agree with you that there would be a vast improvement in the overall scheme of things---It is another matter that both us will be arrested  by our respective governments on charges of sedition.Smile 
[/QUOTE]
Well, you can't have it both ways. You claim soldiers would refuse to fight and therefore lose. If that's true, which I would dispute anyway, it must apply to both sides. If both armies refuse to fight then no battles. I agree that wouldn't happen but that's because your first premise is wrong - that soldiers who went by their own conscience wouldn't fight. It wouldn't for instance have stopped either side in the Crusades.
 


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 02 Sep 2011 at 17:32
Originally posted by Srinath Naivaruni Srinath Naivaruni wrote:

The little boy and fat man were the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. My question was  ' how does the liberal western tradition    account for  the use of   atomic bombs on Japan unless the  end justified the means?...


I don't think it was the "western tradition" what justified that but the practical need to end a war. After all, the U.S. was attacked first, so it very well be said the war was an act of self deffense.



Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2011 at 06:16
While accepting that United States was pulled into the War by the attack on pearl harbour, I dont think it was sensible to launch an Automic Bomb on Hiroshema and Nagasaki, the collective wisdom of the United States should have understood the ramification of the Atom bomb and should have adopted more tactical move to win the war rather than pressing the trigger of Atom bomb, which the posterity of the twin cities suffering even today.
 
What is the gaurantee that some trigger parasite would not press the nuke button and end this civilisation all at once citing come  frivilous reason ?
 
I quote Martin luther King

“We have genuflected before the god of science only to find that it has given us the atomic bomb, producing fears and anxieties that science can never mitigate.”

 

I would also like to quote the Father of Nuke Mr.Oppenheimer citing instances of Bhagavat Gita in his speech saying the world will not be the same after explosion.

He has also said this is only the first explosion in the Modern meaning we have had such explosion in the ancient age has dwelt upon Karma Yoga of Bhagavat Gita. 



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Posted By: Srinath Naivaruni
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2011 at 06:49
[I don't think it was the "western tradition" what justified that but the practical need to end a war. After all, the U.S. was attacked first, so it very well be said the war was an act of self deffense.

[/QUOTE]
wars are always  justified  by practical necessities and not by traditions. Never in the history of mankind has a war been justified by tradition.  I was responding to gcle's views that  in the liberal western tradition  the ends never justified the means, however ethical the ends are. 
 
Now the definition of practical necessity is often left  to the eloquence of the victor and his ability to convince a gullible international opinion as to the practicality of the necessity or the necessity of the practical. All of us know how practically  necessary the dropping of the atomic bombs was. We also know how the international opinion was mesmerised  into accepting  the eloquence of the victorious allies on the practical necessity of   it  in terms of self defence.


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"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"


Posted By: Srinath Naivaruni
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2011 at 07:03
[
Well, you can't have it both ways. You claim soldiers would refuse to fight and therefore lose. If that's true, which I would dispute anyway, it must apply to both sides. If both armies refuse to fight then no battles. I agree that wouldn't happen but that's because your first premise is wrong - that soldiers who went by their own conscience wouldn't fight. It wouldn't for instance have stopped either side in the Crusades.
 
[/QUOTE]
 
When the soldiers  start following their own conscience , two things may happen.  One is that they will refuse to fight ... which is extremely good as it would totally avoid the battle.   The other is that they may still fight obeying orders, but their efficiency will be affected in which case the  army with a greater conscience- awareness will lose. But the whole premise is hypothetical for  if a soldier starts  acting according to the   dictates of his conscience disobeying orders, he would be court martialled and would not be allowed to fight or he will  desert the army.
 
The problem however is that these pricks of the conscience  are not universal in their presence, for there will alwyays be soldiers who are mercenaries and who will fight without regard to their conscience and it is a fact that  most armies  of the world have such soldiers to fight their wars.


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"There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow......"


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2011 at 13:46
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

While accepting that United States was pulled into the War by the attack on pearl harbour, I dont think it was sensible to launch an Automic Bomb on Hiroshema and Nagasaki, the collective wisdom of the United States should have understood the ramification of the Atom bomb and should have adopted more tactical move to win the war rather than pressing the trigger of Atom bomb, which the posterity of the twin cities suffering even today.
 
What is the gaurantee that some trigger parasite would not press the nuke button and end this civilisation all at once citing come  frivilous reason ?
 
I quote Martin luther King

We have genuflected before the god of science only to find that it has given us the atomic bomb, producing fears and anxieties that science can never mitigate.”


He has also said this is only the first explosion in the Modern meaning we have had such explosion in the ancient age has dwelt upon Karma Yoga of Bhagavat Gita. 


After the war, all people are generals
(Western, or at least Spanish, proverb)

Facts:
(1) The U.S. has only 2 atomic bombs. Producing a third wold have taken months.
(2) The U.S. didn't have the chance to "warn" the Japanese, because there was a risk that the bomb dropped on Japan wouldn't explode! If that had happened, the Japanese have had the nuke to bomb the U.S. Confused
(3) The U.S. military kept dieing at a high rate. If the decision was postponed, it would have cost them thousands of lives more.
(4) Tokio was already hardly hit, and it is clear the conventional bombings of Tokio or Dresde were as much destructive as the nukes.

With all these facts at hand, the U.S. decided to drop the bomb to stop the war.
If that didn't happened, the U.S. would have wiped out Hiroshima and Nagazaki anyways, by conventional bombings with an equivalent numbers of victims, before invading that country.

I think King and other "experts" could make the moral analysis they wished, after the fact, but they weren't in the boots of Truman.

With respect to Oppenheimer, it is interesting his cites of the Gita, but that's nothing new. Scientists usually love to compare theirs thoughts with popular culture. You can read Einstein talking about God playing at a cassino, Fritjof Capra speaking about the Tao of physics, or to Michio Kaku talking about the physics of Star Trek. I have also seen a book that talks about the "Physics of superheroes" LOL



Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2011 at 14:16
This is exactly what I said, In todays parlance, the United States and China has equipped Pakistan with Nuke bomb and all of us know there is no Political Stability there, If a trigger happy General press the button what will happen to the world.  Let us look at second scenario, If the nuke happens to fall into the hands of some terrorist groups in Pakistan it can wipe out human race from this earth.
I quote Albert Einstien
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."
 
All controlled trial of nuke is okay, but when it is applied in reality all the calculation can go haywire as it is depended on various parametre. The classic case is Japan Nuke leaks which is a recent incident.
This is where anicient wisdom come into play, as it is told in Bhgavat Gita, that one should not engage in greed for power and supremacy and take insane decisions.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2011 at 15:21
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

While accepting that United States was pulled into the War by the attack on pearl harbour, I dont think it was sensible to launch an Automic Bomb on Hiroshema and Nagasaki, the collective wisdom of the United States should have understood the ramification of the Atom bomb and should have adopted more tactical move to win the war rather than pressing the trigger of Atom bomb, which the posterity of the twin cities suffering even today.
We have discussed the topic of the atomic bombs dropped on Japan many, many times. It's not the topic of thei thread at all, so anyone who wants to raise the topic is advised first to search for existing topics, either here or in the archive, read them, and then reraise the topic if the think they have anything to add.
 
Don't hi-jack this thread irrelevantly.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2011 at 15:36
Given the thrust of this thread the coming of the end via nuclear disaster is far more remote than an imminent end through soporific boredom at the hands mystic twaddle. The throwing out of disconnected quotations totally irrelevant to either mercantile endeavor or even the momentary tirade directed at a historical event of passing fancy hardly constitutes evidence of anything beyond having read far beyond one's levels of proper comprehension. We have far more to fear from the underpinnings of Hindu nationalism misrepresenting History and even current events so as to pursue its traditional biases and atavistic constructs. That a healthy dose of hypocrisy is in play hardly improves the situation given the fact that the mousetrap typical of Indian politics is "illiberal democracy" [yes, usage of the term mousetrap with respect to Indian politics comes from the pen of Fareed Zakaria and not a pretentious blog] and if we are going to be awash in all of this cant over the Bhagavad Gita as an effective guide to "management" one should be aware of its effect in practice as underscored here:
 
http://www.sikhgenocide.org/background.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.sikhgenocide.org/background.htm
 
And since it is a fashion to insert a pretentious quotation, then here is a far more appropriate one:
 
"...tend to your own garden before complaining about someone else's weeds".
 
Voltaire


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 12:52
The Doctor thinks that others around have lesser memory and I am sure that is because he suffers from memory loss, I am saying this because on an another thread he had said that if Gandhi could come to power India will be secular(I am giving a gist of his statement) otherwise Hindutv forces will come into power(I presume he meant BJP) and it will be Anarchy in India.
 
Today he has given a link which talks about Genocide of Sikhs in the aftermath of Mrs.Indira Gandhi's assisianation in 1984 during which time Congress was ruling and for Information it was Mr.Rajeev Gandhi who succeeded her so the statement made is utter nonsense.  There can be outbreak of emotion anywhere when  a Mass Leader is killed so that is not the basis for any procastination,Look at the recent disturbances in London.  Secondly what has it got to do with "Bhagavat Gita and Management".  Now Mr.GCLE can advise the Doc to come back to topic ....PleaseBig smile


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Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 13:34
RN claimed..."on an another thread he [meaning little moi] had said that if Gandhi could come to power India will be secular". Despite the disclaimer later appended about "gist" or something or other, I would respectfully ask the poster to reveal unto us just where I mention a Gandhi, any Ghandi, with respect to current threads. A bit of advice about this G, if you are going to reference or allude to it you had best have your ps and qs in order.
 
As for "coming back to topic", where have I strayed from the gist of this nonsense over scattered scripture being a guidebook to "effective" management. Be real please, since I doubt Vishnu will organize a board room any better than any other mythological figure and you could bet your booties that if any company in which I might have stock spoke of such nonsense, its shares would be dumped on a dime.
 
I have a very low tolerance for politicians quoting Scripture, any scripture, with respect to government so what in the blue blazes makes anyone think I would agree with such shennanigans when it comes to business! It is pure unadulterated bunkum and merits all of the contempt reserved for such nonsense.


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 19:37
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

Look at the recent disturbances in London.  Secondly what has it got to do with "Bhagavat Gita and Management".  Now Mr.GCLE can advise the Doc to come back to topic ....PleaseBig smile
Given the thread's title and subject, anything to do with the Bhagavd Gita is relevant to its utility as a source of management precepts.
On the other hand the recent disturbances in London had nothing to do with either the Bhagavad Gita or management.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2011 at 08:25
Swami sukbodhananda whose "Gita & Excellence is such a huge hit has written this articles which appreared on Economic times, he is a Corporate trainer par excellence and he was asked by the Government of India to train the world winning team as emotional guide.
Swami Sukhabodhananda - ARTICLES - 2009


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Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2011 at 10:17
I am extremely sorry in my error in reading , you had not mentioned Mr.Gandhi it was mentioned by Mr.Horizon.  Apologies.

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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2011 at 13:41
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

Swami sukbodhananda whose "Gita & Excellence is such a huge hit has written this articles which appreared on Economic times, he is a Corporate trainer par excellence and he was asked by the Government of India to train the world winning team as emotional guide.
Swami Sukhabodhananda - ARTICLES - 2009

 

What 'world-winning team' would that be?
 
Not, surely, the one that just got comprehensively thrashed by England?


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2011 at 07:46
Even if he were to be the teaching the recently bashed up Indian team it is okay, what job he was given was to give them emotional training. In a game winning and loosing is part of it. Bhagavat Gita Says.
Bhudir Gyanaam sanmoha, sama satyam yama samah,
sukam duko bhavo bhavoo, bhyam cha bhayam eva cha.
One should not get elated when one wins at the same time one should not feel let down if he fails to win . 
 


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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
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email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2011 at 13:23
The Karma yoga is something profusely quoted by intellectual and many a time it is quoted out of context to by people to justify their mistakes, like any great works even Bhagavat Gita speaks purely on what one's duty is and how to do it correctly. it is like saying doing right things and doing it right.

Karma Yoga is essentially Acting, or doing one's duties in life as per his/her dharma, or duty, without attachment to results – a sort of constant sacrifice of action to the Supreme. It is action done without thought of gain. In a more modern interpretation, it can be viewed as duty bound deeds done without letting the nature of the result affect one's actions. Krishna advocates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nishkam_Karma" rel="nofollow - Nishkam Karma (Selfless Action) as the ideal path to realize the Truth. The very important theme of Karma Yoga is not focused on renouncing the work, but again and again Krishna focuses on what should be the purpose of activity. Krishna mentions in following verses that actions must be performed to please the Supreme otherwise these actions become the cause of material bondage and cause repetition of birth and death in this material world. These concepts are described in the following verses:

"Work done as a sacrifice for Vishnu has to be performed, otherwise work causes bondage in this material world. Therefore, O son of Kuntī, perform your prescribed duties for His satisfaction, and in that way you will always remain free from bondage."
"To action alone hast thou a right and never at all to its fruits; let not the fruits of action be thy motive; neither let there be in thee any attachment to inaction"(2.47)
"Fixed in yoga, do thy work, O Winner of wealth (Arjuna), abandoning attachment, with an even mind in success and failure, for evenness of mind is called yoga"(2.48)
"With the body, with the mind, with the intellect, even merely with the senses, the Yogis perform action toward self-purification, having abandoned attachment. He who is disciplined in Yoga, having abandoned the fruit of action, attains steady peace


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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2011 at 14:15
Well, Karma Yoga is associated in the West with the Beatles and the hippie movement. 


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2011 at 16:28
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

Even if he were to be the teaching the recently bashed up Indian team it is okay, what job he was given was to give them emotional training. In a game winning and loosing is part of it. Bhagavat Gita Says.
Bhudir Gyanaam sanmoha, sama satyam yama samah,
sukam duko bhavo bhavoo, bhyam cha bhayam eva cha.
One should not get elated when one wins at the same time one should not feel let down if he fails to win .   
 More like proiding a consolation for losing than helping to win, which is the poiont of management training.
 
That great Indian Ranjitsinhji had a different view, according to R.J.O.Meyer who knew him as a boy (that is, when Meyer was young). Ranji's definition of a good loser was someone who, when beaten, shook hands with the winner, and went away to practice to make absolutely sure it didn't happen again.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2011 at 16:30
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

The Karma yoga is something profusely quoted by intellectual and many a time it is quoted out of context to by people to justify their mistakes, like any great works even Bhagavat Gita speaks purely on what one's duty is and how to do it correctly. it is like saying doing right things and doing it right.

Karma Yoga is essentially Acting, or doing one's duties in life as per his/her dharma, or duty, without attachment to results – a sort of constant sacrifice of action to the Supreme.  

Not someone likely to get far in business then. Or likely to have much appeal to head hunters.


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Ramesh V.Naivaruni
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2011 at 15:24
The Human Resoruces Managers in IT firms are taking to Linda Goodman for personality traits before recuriting while I know this is a fact in Indian Management parlance, I was also told that this is a practice in the west especially for key positions.

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RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
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email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
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