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If nationalism is out of fashion why to pay taxes?

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Category: GENERAL HISTORY
Forum Name: Economic & Social History
Forum Description: General History seen from Economic and Sociological points of view
URL: http://www.worldhistoria.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=126947
Printed Date: 24 Sep 2020 at 15:17
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Topic: If nationalism is out of fashion why to pay taxes?
Posted By: pinguin
Subject: If nationalism is out of fashion why to pay taxes?
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2011 at 11:44
I wonder, if nationalism is out of fashion, and any crap could enter yours or mine country if they wish, and you have to pay the bills, and if the PC chorus keep singing the utopia of a global brotherhood of mankind, but gives a damn about your country, then why I have to pay taxes?








Replies:
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2011 at 20:54
To keep society functioning? Duhhh.

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"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 04 Sep 2011 at 23:04
But the point it isn't working. Countries were build to advance its people. Not to be charity organizations to help the poors of the world. The problem is that today our politics do whatever they wish with OUR money without even ask us.

So, why to pay taxes?




Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 01:24
What isn't working?


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"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 01:52
...and what makes it YOUR money anyway?

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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 02:00
Whats not working? Define working. We haven't destroyed ourselves (Despite having the technological ability to do so) We don't routinely murder and rape each other - well, mostly (Despite being an inherently violent beast) We still think about the world and make scientific advances (Despite the religiosity and its associated obscuritanism)

All told, we've made Hobbes look a little foolish.

I'm as misanthropic as the next man, but a little perspective please.


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http://xkcd.com/15/



Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 02:35
Countries were "not built" to "advance people", and in fact the term "country" itself is an abstraction. Governments were devised to provide security to a particular society that recognized the achievement of mutual benefits by the individual components. The physical space occupied is actually irrelevant. As for "taxes"...

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: erkut
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 03:16
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I wonder, if nationalism is out of fashion, and any crap could enter yours or mine country if they wish, and you have to pay the bills, and if the PC chorus keep singing the utopia of a global brotherhood of mankind, but gives a damn about your country, then why I have to pay taxes?

Well because if you dont pay your taxes, government will take it by force anyway (yea man just like the mafia) Smile



Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 04:58
Indeed. Governments are the largest swindlers even, followed only by churches.


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 05:00
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Countries were "not built" to "advance people", and in fact the term "country" itself is an abstraction. Governments were devised to provide security to a particular society that recognized the achievement of mutual benefits by the individual components. The physical space occupied is actually irrelevant. As for "taxes"...


I dissagre. Governments are build to provide security to the members of the state. They don't care about the people, just to exploit them.




Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 07:34
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Countries were "not built" to "advance people", and in fact the term "country" itself is an abstraction. Governments were devised to provide security to a particular society that recognized the achievement of mutual benefits by the individual components. The physical space occupied is actually irrelevant. As for "taxes"...


I dissagre. Governments are build to provide security to the members of the state. They don't care about the people, just to exploit them.




What you are intentionally overlooking is that the vast majority of people are content to live in a political structure that constitutes a 'state' and that they appreciate the security that the state apparatus provides in return for a sacrifice of some of their liberty. In an ideal world, humans would be ideal and there would be no need for states and governments, but it goes without saying that we do not live in an ideal world.


-------------
http://xkcd.com/15/



Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw


Posted By: pinguin
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 10:50
I don't think so. The state is accepted as the lesser evil, but most people would agree the state doesn't work for the people but for itself.


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 17:06
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...and what makes it YOUR money anyway?
 
What an interesting faith based statement; and that irrespective of the entity in which the faith is placed.
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 05 Sep 2011 at 21:49
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I don't think so. The state is accepted as the lesser evil, but most people would agree the state doesn't work for the people but for itself.
 
 
The "state" is an abstraction and hardly capable of physical "work" and the drafting of such trite twatle is but a residual of sophomoric Marxism worthy of any pissoir wall of the UNAM campus on the Pedregal--or on the lips of those "rambunctious" students that are still given to street hooliganism at this very moment in Chile.
 
 


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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2011 at 05:27
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...and what makes it YOUR money anyway?
 
What an interesting faith based statement; and that irrespective of the entity in which the faith is placed.
 
-Akolouthos
I didn't see it as faith based, though maybe in a way it is. It is on reflection close to 'Render unto Caesar...'.
 
More materialistically though money is created by the government (sometimes by the central bank independently) and would have no value without government backing. So in a very real sense it is the government's money which you're enjoying the use of temporarily. 


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: drgonzaga
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2011 at 07:02
And "money" can at times be "worthless" no matter how much "backing" a government might give it. Perhaps the better word here would be "currency" so as to eliminate any sense of true value with respect to actual wealth. I could begin to wax philosophical here and mutter something about people being the actual wealth of any government but I was merely issuing a "a call to order" before terms get bandied about beyond their intrinsic meaning, although perhaps it is a losing cause given the thrust to present nationalism as the root of government in societal constructs.

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Honi soit qui mal y pense


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 20:37
when gives a damn about my country. then why ? but otherwise i pay taxes. coz, nationalism is always fashionable. so get fashion for young generation. thanks


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 20:42
Of course i agree with you. but fashion is power of nationalism & fashion is providable by nation. thanks


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 21:48
Last I checked my country was setup as a prision colony to rehabilitate the crap that enters. It worked very well, and now the prisioners demand healthcare, education and defence. My taxes pay for that, because my ancestors considered that hanging out in the prision was more fun than being outside.
 
Last I checked, this has been exceptionally successful. They actually had to stop sending the prisioners here because people started to think of it as a reward rather than a punishment.


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 09:09
Letting the inmates loose to run the prison. Probably one of the few success stories? Tried it over here. Didn't work out so well.


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 09:28
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Letting the inmates loose to run the prison. Probably one of the few success stories? Tried it over here. Didn't work out so well.


Most of them were fairly petty criminals living in an environment with rather draconian property laws and a great deal of urban poverty. Given the opportunity to work the land or take up an honest business, most were quite keen. Pardons for good behaviour were very common and the free population very quickly overgrew the incarcerated population.

That's to say nothing of the many colonies where there were no convicts or merely numbers present in negligable number.

Still you always had the hardened ones to deal with. Irish rebels whose strength of numbers were no match for the British guards they rebelled against with 8:1 numbers in their favour. Their lack of ability to maintain some sobriety after a few initial advances had a heavy impact on their chances of actually finishing the rebellion.

And as for the really hardened criminals who were deemed beyond redemption, they could always be sent to yet another island (Tasmania) so as not to damage the chances of the remaining prisoners to rehabilitate.


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 09:37
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Letting the inmates loose to run the prison. Probably one of the few success stories? Tried it over here. Didn't work out so well.


Most of them were fairly petty criminals living in an environment with rather draconian property laws and a great deal of urban poverty. Given the opportunity to work the land or take up an honest business, most were quite keen. Pardons for good behaviour were very common and the free population very quickly overgrew the incarcerated population.

That's to say nothing of the many colonies where there were no convicts or merely numbers present in negligable number.


True. Please forgive me,  i was only speaking generally and even then it was only tongue in cheek.

Quote
Still you always had the hardened ones to deal with. Irish rebels whose strength of numbers were no match for the British guards they rebelled against with 8:1 numbers in their favour. Their lack of ability to maintain some sobriety after a few initial advances had a heavy impact on their chances of actually finishing the rebellion.


Would you say Ned Kelly and his gang was representative of the Irish Australians of the time who rebelled against British rule of law?


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 20 May 2012 at 12:54
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Letting the inmates loose to run the prison. Probably one of the few success stories? Tried it over here. Didn't work out so well.

Its an interesting question really. Why did it work? If you look at the early history of Australia, the real criminal bastards causing trouble aren't the convicts but the officers.
Probably, because the convicts saw a extreme carrot and stick offering. If you misbehaved, you were hanged or lashed. If you ran away, you were as good as dead. But if you work diligantly, you could become a pillar of the community, and, after 1814, extremely rich. Ultimately, the survival of the colony dependend on the convicts working. If they didn't farm, they'd starve.
Quote Would you say Ned Kelly and his gang was representative of the Irish Australians of the time who rebelled against British rule of law?
No, they're just glorified criminals. Any Irish nationalism on the Kelly gang is back projection of a cause to excuse the fact they were thieves.


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2012 at 12:13
whatever they wish with OUR money without even ask us. http://www.brautundabendkleider.com" rel="nofollow - brautundabendkleider.com


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2012 at 21:42
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

...and what makes it YOUR money anyway?
 
What an interesting faith based statement; and that irrespective of the entity in which the faith is placed.
 
-Akolouthos
I didn't see it as faith based, though maybe in a way it is. It is on reflection close to 'Render unto Caesar...'.
 
More materialistically though money is created by the government (sometimes by the central bank independently) and would have no value without government backing. So in a very real sense it is the government's money which you're enjoying the use of temporarily. 


Whoa whoa whoa...  The Government is constituted of what are called in a democracy "public servants"; servants of the people who operate with the people's consent, at least in theory.  The government is a representative of the people and acts int heir best interest, again in theory.  reality is obviously different.



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"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2012 at 21:58
Governments are not necessarily democratic.

I should though have added that governments don't create all the money, pretty well any institution or individual can to some extent. But it is the government that gives money value, to a large extent because it accepts money as taxation, but also because it forces people and corporations to accept it in payment of debt.

Whether or not the government is theoretically acting be the will of the people is strictly irrelevant.



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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2012 at 03:20
Yes, but governments still need the acceptance of the general population to exist (whether forced or concentual).

If you're being specific with regard to money then you're right, but currency doesn't need government.  It is a manifestation of value, which is created by people.





-------------
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2012 at 20:28
You have a valid distinction there, but I don't think you have the right words. All sorts of things have value and, since the value is different to different people, can be traded. Some of those things my be more widespread in value than the rest and become some sort of yardstick.That, historically, is pretty well how international commerce has been carried on, there being no international authority to regulate it. 

I don't think I'd call such things either money or currency, but I can't think of an alternative name.  


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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2012 at 02:35
The trials of taxonomy, eh?

let's assume value as being something that is generally accepted as improving your standard of living, sustaining it, or facilitating your existence at a minimum.


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"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 05:16
Acceptance can be general because it is forced on the individual, democratically or otherwise, or simply through lots of people having similar individual preferences. I wouldn't call it 'money' unless its acceptance is legally enforced.    

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Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.



Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2012 at 18:53
you're being too literal, I am referring to material wealth and resources which have obvious value and because the value is obvious there is a general acceptance. 

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"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.


Posted By: SPQR
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2012 at 07:37
While I am unfortunately part of the "PC chorus singing kumbaya and talking about utopia oh and a hallelujer!!!!" I do pay taxes to the country I live in... the difference between me and you is that I don't care what country I live in as long as it is safe, good weather, and half decent Government. I guess I could live in Germany or England... always had a liking for those places.

I pay taxes so I can drive where I want without wrecking my suspension in my car.

I pay taxes so I can stay up to 3 am playing video games and hanging out with friends and enjoying life, knowing that I am safe to a degree.

Any country that can do that for me is A-ok!


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Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.

- Albert Einstein


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 17:43
Absolutely. Your tax assessments have to do with the value of the building. Increase/enlarge the building and you increase the value and, therefore, the taxes will also be increased.



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