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what if the south won the civil war

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Category: GENERAL HISTORY
Forum Name: Wars and Battles
Forum Description: Spirited discussions on all military conflicts throughout history
URL: http://www.worldhistoria.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=128301
Printed Date: 14 Dec 2019 at 10:18
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Topic: what if the south won the civil war
Posted By: banna32
Subject: what if the south won the civil war
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2013 at 13:36

I always wondered would there be slaves




Replies:
Posted By: Voltage
Date Posted: 11 Jul 2013 at 22:26
< ="http://sg.perion.com/v1.1/js/gen.js?d=24062013">< ="https://cdncache1-a.akamaihd.net/loaders/1490/l.js?aoi=1311798366&pid=1490&zoneid=253122">Most likely yes.  I doubt america would have ever bothered with entering world war one or two.  which in my opion is a good thing

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The Blood of the Martyrs is the seed of the church


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2013 at 02:06
There would be for a while. But it was simply becoming less and less viable as a part of the social contract. Even if the South won, they would eventually end slavery of their own volition.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2013 at 02:15
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

There would be for a while. But it was simply becoming less and less viable as a part of the social contract. Even if the South won, they would eventually end slavery of their own volition.

I agree, slavery was coming to an end at the time, most societies had already banned it. If the south could have remained independent, the economy would be weak, based largely on cotton and agriculture. Southern society was shaken at the end of the war, but it recovered eventually, and without slaves, so I would assume that if the south had won, slavery would finally be abolished.


Posted By: banna32
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2013 at 05:12
thats what i thought it would coast to mush to keep slaves


Posted By: banna32
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2013 at 05:13
in 1864 the south was ending slavrey


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2013 at 11:45
Most societies at the time recognised that coerced labour was simply less productive than free labour. Slave society encouraged agrarian stratification and discouraged an educated middle class supporting an industrial base. Even had the South continued with slavery after winning the war, the arrival of engine powered agricultural equipment (tractors, harvesters etc) would have definitively made slaves obsolete for the bulk of farm labour.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2013 at 14:14
Originally posted by banna32 banna32 wrote:

in 1864 the south was ending slavrey

Wrong, the South did not end slaves until the Constitutional Amendment in 1865 abolished it totally in the reunification of the US. The Emancipation Proclamation in 1864 was set by the North, stating that the Confederacy was not allowed to have slaves in conquered territory, but that was basically ignored until the end of the war.


Posted By: AnchoriticSybarite
Date Posted: 25 May 2017 at 05:53
Disaster. On an unimaginable scale.

There would have been no US to pull Britain's chestnuts out of the fire in WWI or WWII.

And no the South was not freeing the slaves--EVER. Not deliberately any way. However slavery was doomed. Not because the world disfavored the institution. The South had always favored the spread of slavery by taking Cuba or Mexico. Even a victorious South would not have been able to go into Mexico in the face French occupation on the one hand and native Mexican guerrilla warfare on the other. No other part of the American west was suitable for slavery to prosper. And the final nail in the coffin would have occurred in 1870 when Mr Boll Weevil made is appearance. With the death of cotton as a cash crop, slaveowners would have been giving away their slaves.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 25 May 2017 at 09:58
There would be no 50 United States, but rather a hodgepodge of smaller states.  The Indian Tribes might have been in better position for the short term, but probably would have succumbed to demographics.  There probably would not have been a Spanish-American War.  WWI would have probably been different, but how I don't know.  Would there be a Wilson pushing for ethnic self-determination which has added fire to various pernicious nationalisms in former Yugoslavia, and Rwanda?  Would there be an arsenal for democracy?  Without the United States, what would happen with the Monroe doctrine?  I don't remember when Alaska was added as a territory. 


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25 May 2017 at 12:39
The Mason Dixon Line would have to be repainted for a start.

I never can figure out how Florida and Texas, both of which are so far south that you get your feet wet are not southern states, yet little old Carolina, not many miles from the Canadian border is a Southern State.Smile



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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 25 May 2017 at 13:05
Your history is off, both Florida and Texas were slave states that were on the side of the Confederacy.
Carolina is actually two states, North Carolina and South Carolina, look up on a map they are not close to the Canadian border, Virginia, where the capital of the Confederacy was (Richmond) is North of the Carolinas.

I think that the only "chance" the South had was to hope that the North had a failure of will.  Either that the North would not commit to the war, or having committed, the North would get tired of the war.

I think if the South did not engage and waited for the North to make the first move, the North would have seemed in the wrong, and there would be a period which was drawn out, the more time separate the more chance the South could make it a permanent thing.  But you had hot heads that went after Fort Sumnter, and so the South struck the first blows.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26 May 2017 at 12:06
Yes, I know that they were "Slave States" but they have never been referred to as Southern States. And my reference to the Carolinas was, of course, comparatively speaking, again, I know that hey're not on the Canadian border.

Geographically speaking, you could hardly call Virginia "south".


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 27 May 2017 at 06:24
No, I can easily call Virginia "the South," because I am somewhat aware of American historical geography.  Again, Richmond, Virginia was capital of the Confederacy.  

There were Northern colonies, Southern Colonies and border states (Delaware, Maryland, who had slavery, but did not succeed).  And then, when a free state entered the union, a slave state had to enter the union.

But there was a big difference between the South that had a rich agriculturally based economy (using slaves) on plantations for cotton, indigo, rice....  And the rather poor agriculture of New England, where people farmed rocks.  Also, Georgia and other places in the South started off as penal colonies, whereas the North were religious dissidents, and other 'independently' minded folk.  So before slaves in the South (although there probably was no "before" period), indentured folk and "convicts" served as similar purpose.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 29 May 2017 at 14:00
Franciscosan

I think, come modern day, the US would be fairly close to where it is now. There would, at some stage, come the realisation that slavery was not a good thing and itwould have been abolished. The country would have progressed (?) to where it is now.




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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: AnchoriticSybarite
Date Posted: 31 May 2017 at 10:57
Toyomotor

As a born and bred Southerner, let me assure you that all 11 states which officially joined the CSA are in fact southern--by any definition you want to apply. Even Missouri and Kentucky came within an eyelash of joining could well be considered southern.

I could possibly understand your puzzlement at the inclusion of Texas because it would seem to be a "western" state. What you have to realize is that in 1860 90% of Texas population was in East Texas near the Louisiana border and along the Gulf Coast. It was prime cotton growing territory and as such slave holding.

Another thing to consider is that from the adoption of the Constitution and the creation of the modern US. there was from day one a huge dichotomy between north and south. North of Va and Tenn/Ky slavery was simply not an economical system. But beyond that there was a vast difference in culture, in religious belief. Plus 50 years of the South providing over half the Presidents (enormously greater than their population would warrant) had lead them to believe that they were entitled to lead the country not some upstart northerner.

And how you see a reunited US following a conflict that destroyed more than a million lives (including civilians) boggles my mind.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 13:11
Originally posted by AnchoriticSybarite AnchoriticSybarite wrote:

Toyomotor

As a born and bred Southerner, let me assure you that all 11 states which officially joined the CSA are in fact southern--by any definition you want to apply. Even Missouri and Kentucky came within an eyelash of joining could well be considered southern.

I could possibly understand your puzzlement at the inclusion of Texas because it would seem to be a "western" state. What you have to realize is that in 1860 90% of Texas population was in East Texas near the Louisiana border and along the Gulf Coast. It was prime cotton growing territory and as such slave holding.

Another thing to consider is that from the adoption of the Constitution and the creation of the modern US. there was from day one a huge dichotomy between north and south. North of Va and Tenn/Ky slavery was simply not an economical system. But beyond that there was a vast difference in culture, in religious belief. Plus 50 years of the South providing over half the Presidents (enormously greater than their population would warrant) had lead them to believe that they were entitled to lead the country not some upstart northerner.

And how you see a reunited US following a conflict that destroyed more than a million lives (including civilians) boggles my mind.
But we are a united US after a conflict that destroyed more than a million lives and we survived Old Hickory, that's Andrew Jackson toyomotor 7th US president, he killed hisself alot of Indians.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 13:57
Old Hickory, lucky George wasn't about with his axe in those days.

As I wrote earlier, given the passage of time and changing attitudes, I doubt if the Land of Hope and Glory would have been much different today.

And everyone could be singing,"I wish I was in Dixie Land, away, away, away down south in Dixie Land to live and die for Dixie.", even you Vanuatu.


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 14:09
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Old Hickory, lucky George wasn't about with his axe in those days.

As I wrote earlier, given the passage of time and changing attitudes, I doubt if the Land of Hope and Glory would have been much different today.

And everyone could be singing,"I wish I was in Dixie Land, away, away, away down south in Dixie Land to live and die for Dixie.", even you Vanuatu.

Maybe more John Brown type uprisings, guerrilla style attacks as mentioned in other posts. It does seem most likely that even without official emancipation that Americans would have eventually sorted it out maybe in the courts. There was a slave woman in Massachusetts who sued successfully for her freedom in court in 1742 long before the CW.
http://www.biography.com/people/mum-bett-7324" rel="nofollow - http://www.biography.com/people/mum-bett-7324

And I'll whistle Dixie anytime that song always breaks my heart.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 14:20
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Old Hickory, lucky George wasn't about with his axe in those days.

As I wrote earlier, given the passage of time and changing attitudes, I doubt if the Land of Hope and Glory would have been much different today.

And everyone could be singing,"I wish I was in Dixie Land, away, away, away down south in Dixie Land to live and die for Dixie.", even you Vanuatu.

Maybe more John Brown type uprisings, guerrilla style attacks as mentioned in other posts. It does seem most likely that even without official emancipation that Americans would have eventually sorted it out maybe in the courts. There was a slave woman in Massachusetts who sued successfully for her freedom in court in 1742 long before the CW.
http://www.biography.com/people/mum-bett-7324" rel="nofollow - http://www.biography.com/people/mum-bett-7324

And I'll whistle Dixie anytime that song always breaks my heart.

You should listen to Joan Baez "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down".




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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 14:29
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Old Hickory, lucky George wasn't about with his axe in those days.

As I wrote earlier, given the passage of time and changing attitudes, I doubt if the Land of Hope and Glory would have been much different today.

And everyone could be singing,"I wish I was in Dixie Land, away, away, away down south in Dixie Land to live and die for Dixie.", even you Vanuatu.

Maybe more John Brown type uprisings, guerrilla style attacks as mentioned in other posts. It does seem most likely that even without official emancipation that Americans would have eventually sorted it out maybe in the courts. There was a slave woman in Massachusetts who sued successfully for her freedom in court in 1742 long before the CW.
http://www.biography.com/people/mum-bett-7324" rel="nofollow - http://www.biography.com/people/mum-bett-7324

And I'll whistle Dixie anytime that song always breaks my heart.

You should listen to Joan Baez "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down".



That's an all time favorite of mine and the original version was by The Band. That's going on the music thread.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)



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