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hist of mankind from genetics

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Forum Name: Ethnicity & Genetics
Forum Description: Heredity and variation of ethnicities Moderators: Panther
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Printed Date: 21 Aug 2018 at 04:53
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Topic: hist of mankind from genetics
Posted By: franciscosan
Subject: hist of mankind from genetics
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 00:20
So when did humans stop having hair all over?
Well, turns out they can come up with a date by figuring out 
how much deviation head lice vs. pubic lice have from each other.
Originally, human head lice and pubic lice were the same critters.
But when our North and our South (so to speak) separated.  
The critters in each area began to diverge from each other.
Figure out how much they've diverged, you have a rough
timeline.

Oh, I don't know when they started to diverge, I am just
impressed that scientists have figured out how to get a rough date.



Replies:
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 00:48
The teams of archeological, genetics, physicists and other sciences, has made advances in tracing the human genome through history to the extent that new findings are being made almost monthly, and the genesis of many human "tribes" being traced from their origins to their present locale.

Two cases at hand, and not by any means unusual, are the Australian Neanderthals and Aborigines, and the American tribes being tracked from Africa by various routes to their corrent homes.

There is great debate in scientific circles over by which route the Americas were populated, Beringia (Siberia-Alaska and then south by coast or inland) or by sea.

Time will tell.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 01:22
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-native-american-origins-dna-20150721-story.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-native-american-origins-dna-20150721-story.html

Looks like the scientists found two distinct groups that became north and south Americans.

"It was crazy and unexpected and very weird and we spent the last year and a half trying to understand it," Reich said on Monday. But "it's inconsistent to a single founding population. People in Amazonia have ancestry from two divergent sources...we think this is a real observation."



Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2017 at 04:23
Quote Looks like the scientists found two distinct groups that became north and south Americans.

The debate still rages, and I think there'll be a lot of water under the bridge before the question is resolved, if ever.

While I tend to favour the Beringia hypothesis, scientists are coming up with new ideas on a very regular basis, and one which cannot be put aside is the hypothesis that there have been several migrations into the Americas, from Beringia and also from seaward.

The Austronesians apparently were in the first wave of the Out of Africa migration-so far anyway, that could change tomorrow.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 00:54
Vanuatu:-

I don't know how much you know about genetics, but I read an interesting article this morning, that you may like to read. It's not the latest thinking in genetics, what the article contains was know some months ago.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/neanderthal-ancestors-still-influencing-us-through-our-genes/news-story/1c666f61426d9767da02ab61f3be1404


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 01:39
Vanuatu:-

I mentioned in a previous post that I thought that there could have been multiple migrations into the Americas. A press Release made only yesterday seems to prove me correct.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/skull-analysis-concludes-americas-were-settled-more-one-wave-migrants-021241


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 02:51
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu:-

I mentioned in a previous post that I thought that there could have been multiple migrations into the Americas. A press Release made only yesterday seems to prove me correct.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/skull-analysis-concludes-americas-were-settled-more-one-wave-migrants-021241

I know how kool is that? That is the article I referred to. Remember Thor Heyerdahl? He sailed on the Kon Tiki (1947) to discern the route of migration to South America. He thought he would prove that the Pacific islands were populated by South Americans, descendants of the land bridge travelers. 
Genetic tests proved that tomatoes and sweet potato came from S.A. (staple food for Pacific Islanders) and that La Nina trade winds reversed every (roughly 2-7 yrs) seven years pushing easterly weather towards the western coast of South America. This made the journey from Pacific Islands possible where it's impossible during El Nino years.
Isn't it likely that some travelers would have returned to the Pacific Islands with sweet potato, and wouldn't they have traded women if a population existed in South America?


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 03:02
The DNA of Pacific Islanders connects them to modern South Americans, all the way to Vanuatu! Haha

Neanderthal DNa is found at 47,000 years in Romanian remains. This article is old-2015, so much has changed! 

Neanderthals are thought to have disappeared in Europe approximately 39,000–41,000 years ago but they have contributed 1–3% of the DNA of present-day people in Eurasia. Surprisingly, analyses of present-day genomes have not yielded any evidence that Neanderthals mixed with modern humans in Europe, despite the fact that Neanderthals were numerous there and cultural interactions between the two groups have been proposed. Dr. FU Qiaomei, Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology of Chinese Academy of Sciences (IVPP), and scientists from Germany, USA, Romania and Canada, discovered that a 37,000–42,000-year-old modern human from Peştera cu Oase, Romania had the order of 6–9% of the genome derived from Neanderthals, more than any other modern human sequenced to date.

The finding published online June 22 in Nature suggests that the mixture between modern humans and Neanderthals was not limited to the first ancestors of present-day people to leave Africa, or to people in the Near East, and it occurred later as well and probably in Europe.


Oase 1, a modern human mandible, was found in 2002 in the Peştera cu Oase, Romania. The age of this specimen has been estimated to be,37,000–42,000 years by direct radiocarbon dating. 



Read more at:  https://phys.org/news/2015-07-scientists-early-modern-human-neanderthal.html#jCp" rel="nofollow - https://phys.org/news/2015-07-scientists-early-modern-human-neanderthal.html#jCp






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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 04:34
Vanuatu
The Ainu and the Jomon people, originally, were part of an early Out of Africa Migration which followed a coastal route through South East Asia, populating the Andaman Island and eventually Japan.

This was well before any influx of Chinese.

The Jomon and Ainu people settled in Japan about 12000 YBP, where the Australian Aborigines settled in Australia between about 40 to 60 thousand years ago. There have also been discoveries which lead to the revelation that Neanderthal people were here before the Aborigines.

Pacific Islanders are believed to have come from Asia to the islands, this is believed to be only  about 1000years ago. (I haven't read much about the Pacific Islanders so I can't say for sure how long they've been there.)


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 05:05
http://dna-explained.com/2015/07/22/some-native-americans-had-oceanic-ancestors/" rel="nofollow - http://dna-explained.com/2015/07/22/some-native-americans-had-oceanic-ancestors/

Yes Pacific Islanders in Oceana probably came from Taiwan. But I'm referring to the South Americans who have Polynesian DNA but not the same markers as the groups who are identified with the Siberian or Beringia crossings.


"Subsequent gene flow resulted in some Native Americans sharing ancestry with present-day East Asians (including Siberians) and, more distantly, Australo-Melanesians. Putative ‘Paleoamerican’ relict populations, including the historical Mexican Pericúes and South American Fuego-Patagonians, are not directly related to modern Australo-Melanesians as suggested by the Paleoamerican Model."


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 09:37
Vanuatu:

The ancients who first populated South America, AFAIK, were also part of the Great Coastal Migration, but more recent evidence, as I mentioned, indicates that there was also an influx by sea, so we end up with a mixing bowl. It's easy to see the asian influence in some Native Americans (a concept which is being attacked, in favour of there being other form of humans in the Americas prior to their arrival, and, astonishingly, closely related to the Australian Aborigines). Note that the Australian Aborigines predate the Native Americans by about 35000 to 38000 years.

Again, AFAIK, there is no evidence of these people being a large population, more possibly a splinter group which broke away from the Great Coastal Migration (of which the Aborigines were part).

What really intrigues me is the technical expertise of the South Americans, compared to the more primitive (and I use that word with caution) North Americans. Examples-their large complicated cities, the use of canals to channel water to their crops, construction of ziggurat style temples, metal working,etc.

Did the South Americans referred to arrive by sea from a middle eastern country, such as Mesopotamia? I don't think that there's evidence of that, but why were they so far technologically advanced compared to the North Americans, and remained so until the Spanish Invasions in some cases? I don't know.

From my limited knowledge of Native Americans, I think that closest the North Americans came, at that time, would possibly have been the Pueblo Indians who built "towns" in the cliff faces.

________________________________________________________________________________

Quote  Remember Thor Heyerdahl? 

Oy Vey, I'm only a munchkin. I wasn't born until the following year, but, yes I've seen the Discovery Channel and other programs on his venture.

As far as I'm concerned, he proved the theory of the sea borne migration-I don't know why scientists ignored his hypothesis for so long. Jealousy probably.

It ranks right up there with a theory that the Vikings in fact sailed further south and that some remained in America when the others went home.

Who knows what tomorrow will bring?





-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 14:38
Yes the Anasazi (Colorado) left a complex system of buildings and had a large community living in caves known as Mesa Verde. 
http://www.nps.gov/meve/learn/historyculture/cliff_dwellings_home.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.nps.gov/meve/learn/historyculture/cliff_dwellings_home.htm

Burial mounds in Georgia (US) appear to be in the motif of Quetzalcoatl  but the US government won't allow excavation.
Author Jared Diamond  has described the fate of these people as an environmental disaster like Kattegat, Denmark.

Is it perfectly reasonable to expect more discovery? I think it is.



-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 22:24
It's not genetics, but the Polynesian language family (or probably, the Polynesian branch) comes from Taiwan.  Of that language family 3 of the 4 main branches are found only in Taiwan, which means that is the origin (or what is left of the origin) of that language family.

I would recommend John McWhorter and his linguistics lectures (on Great Courses).  He is in the Wall Street Journal and other popular outlets, I imagine that he is on youtube.

He seems to be synesthetic from the way he uses examples, it is kind of cool.

Madagascar is also the same language family.

Interesting hearing about the Ainu and the Jomon, never thought about whether the Jomon were ethnically different that the Japanese.  (I studied Japanese language and culture for a couple of years).

If I remember right, Mesa Verde is not Anasazi and it definitely is not a cave the way we think of caves.  There is an overhang, under which they built their adobe village.  There are also ruins on the top of the Mesa which are older.  I seem to remember there was quite a bit of sand (grit) in their diet, which wore down their teeth.  But it has been a long time since I went down there (grade school).

It's treaties with the Indian tribes which prevent excavation, in some ways I would like to learn more about ancient cultures, but I can understand the Indian view that archaeologists are grave robbers.  Western European tradition says that excavation is alright, but that is not the view everywhere.  Of course, putting all this stuff in a museum, is in a way just putting in a fancy _mausoleum_, where instead of just being dead, it is dead and on display.  Of course, I like museums too, I just wonder if it would be better to leave the grave goods where they are, just like I wonder if scientists molesting penguins is the best thing from the penguin's perspective.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2017 at 23:42
franciscosan wrote
Quote It's not genetics, but the Polynesian language family (or probably, the Polynesian branch) comes from Taiwan.  Of that language family 3 of the 4 main branches are found only in Taiwan, which means that is the origin (or what is left of the origin) of that language family.

I see, and precisely how did the language family manage to migrate to the Pacific Islands, without the people?

You are wrong! 

The most modern thinking is that, against the odds, people came from Taiwan to the Pacific Islands, obviously by sea, and remained there. The language, over time developed into the various languages spoken throughout the islands.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 00:01
I am not sure what you think i am wrong about, I may have not expressed myself very well.  If I said, "this whirling dervish statue came from Turkey." would you say that it did not?  It definitely did not paddle in an outrigger, or walk, or fly, but it was picked up as a souvenir and came to Colorado.  The language families that include Polynesian, according to the linguist John McWhorter, originated in Taiwan.  We can tell that because that is where the most divergence of the language family is.  If you want to argue with Professor McWhorter, that is where I have got my factoids (mangled perhaps by me, not him).


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 04:13
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I am not sure what you think i am wrong about, I may have not expressed myself very well.  If I said, "this whirling dervish statue came from Turkey." would you say that it did not?  It definitely did not paddle in an outrigger, or walk, or fly, but it was picked up as a souvenir and came to Colorado.  The language families that include Polynesian, according to the linguist John McWhorter, originated in Taiwan.  We can tell that because that is where the most divergence of the language family is.  If you want to argue with Professor McWhorter, that is where I have got my factoids (mangled perhaps by me, not him).

My disagreement with you centres on your inference that language arrived on the Pacific Islands, without DNA.

I won't argue with an academic, but your inference is out of whack, IMHO.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 04:34
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

It's not genetics, but the Polynesian language family (or probably, the Polynesian branch) comes from Taiwan.  Of that language family 3 of the 4 main branches are found only in Taiwan, which means that is the origin (or what is left of the origin) of that language family.

I would recommend John McWhorter and his linguistics lectures (on Great Courses).  He is in the Wall Street Journal and other popular outlets, I imagine that he is on youtube.

He seems to be synesthetic from the way he uses examples, it is kind of cool.

Madagascar is also the same language family.

Interesting hearing about the Ainu and the Jomon, never thought about whether the Jomon were ethnically different that the Japanese.  (I studied Japanese language and culture for a couple of years).

If I remember right, Mesa Verde is not Anasazi and it definitely is not a cave the way we think of caves.  There is an overhang, under which they built their adobe village.  There are also ruins on the top of the Mesa which are older.  I seem to remember there was quite a bit of sand (grit) in their diet, which wore down their teeth.  But it has been a long time since I went down there (grade school).


It most certainly is called Mesa Verde, and it has been completely excavated. The trouble with other sites is that the US government owns the land not the Native Americans. No one said the cliff dwellings were like anything in particular, thus the link. 

Cliff Dwellings

The cliff dwellings of Mesa Verde are some of the most notable and best preserved in the North American Continent. Sometime during the late 1190s, after primarily living on the mesa top for 600 years, many Ancestral Pueblo people began living in pueblos they built beneath the overhanging cliffs. The structures ranged in size from one-room storage units to villages of more than 150 rooms. While still farming the mesa tops, they continued to reside in the alcoves, repairing, remodeling, and constructing new rooms for nearly a century. By the late 1270s, the population began migrating south into present-day New Mexico and Arizona. By 1300, the Ancestral Puebloan occupation of Mesa Verde ended.




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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 08:23
Vanuatu:-



I think that these are the same dwellings that I refered to. AFAIK, these crude dwellings, as well as the "lodges" built by other tribes, are the only evidence of construction by North Americans. Why that is the case, and if I'm right, I don't know.

How the idea for the complicated buildings, waterways and roads reached the South Americans, I don't know.

If you know, I'd be interested in finding out.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 21:22
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu:-



I think that these are the same dwellings that I refered to. AFAIK, these crude dwellings, as well as the "lodges" built by other tribes, are the only evidence of construction by North Americans. Why that is the case, and if I'm right, I don't know.

How the idea for the complicated buildings, waterways and roads reached the South Americans, I don't know.

If you know, I'd be interested in finding out.



http://www.jareddiamond.org/Jared_Diamond/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.jareddiamond.org/Jared_Diamond/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel.html
 

I think Jared Diamond's 25 year study detailed in "Guns, Germs and Steel" (nutshell version at link) provides an explanation for Eurasian dominance in technology that also applies to the south/north American Indians. Domestication of animals occurs in sedentary populations. North American Indians had lots of room and followed game like the hunter gatherer at tribal level maybe 50-100 people. 

Frequent drought in the southwestern US would have been a great challenge. The Anasazi did overcome it for a long time 1100 years or so, trade routes did exist. Among North American Indians there was a tribal chief but no king and the population was nomadic. Groups remained distinct bc there was so much land and game available. The Great Plains are prone to disastrous flooding, the west coast has drought, the southeastern coast gets hit by hurricanes and tornadoes hit all along the Atlantic coast. This would have made farming difficult and the lack of animals and plants that would yield to domestication were also scarce. Diamond makes the point about Aborigines, why didn't they domestic the kangaroo?  Roos just aren't cows or pigs. I think the link will answer a lot of questions.


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 21:42
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I am not sure what you think i am wrong about, I may have not expressed myself very well.  If I said, "this whirling dervish statue came from Turkey." would you say that it did not?  It definitely did not paddle in an outrigger, or walk, or fly, but it was picked up as a souvenir and came to Colorado.  The language families that include Polynesian, according to the linguist John McWhorter, originated in Taiwan.  We can tell that because that is where the most divergence of the language family is.  If you want to argue with Professor McWhorter, that is where I have got my factoids (mangled perhaps by me, not him).

My disagreement with you centres on your inference that language arrived on the Pacific Islands, without DNA.

I won't argue with an academic, but your inference is out of whack, IMHO.



http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.0040019" rel="nofollow - http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.0040019

 All Austronesian languages spoken outside Taiwan belong to the Malayo-Polynesian branch, and almost all the Malayo-Polynesian languages of Oceania belong to the Oceanic branch. It is Proto Oceanic, the immediate ancestor of the Oceanic languages, that is associated with an early phase of the Lapita Cultural Complex. Proto Oceanic split into a number of branches as its descendants spread across Remote Oceania, including Proto Nuclear Micronesian and Proto Polynesian (a branch of Central Oceanic).


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 22:18
Of course, DNA went to Polynesia, but you need not understand DNA or even its existence to understand the paradigms of linguistics.  To me, Linguistics is one of those fields of science, like the use of DNA that can illustrate very basic, fundamental facts of human activity, like migrations.  In that case they are similar, but of course you cannot tell what language(s) and individual spoke by the bodily remains.  At least not yet??  (Never say never?)  Since it similar and neat that is why I brought in the Polynesian linguistics, and because it doesn't _directly_ have to do with genetics, that is why I apologized for doing so.

I am not sure that I would consider Mesa Verde "primitive."  I don't know about the age of the Hopi buildings, or other structures.  Wooden lodges were built in the Pacific North West.  I wonder how much of Mesa Verde and the other Southwest structures were the result of maize agriculture, starting in Mexico and Guatemala and coming up from there.  I seem to remember that Mesa Verde had natural water sources, but I am not sure.  But, you definitely did not get the complexity that happened with the Aztec, Mayan and Incan civilizations.  Much as I hate crowding, I tend to think that crowding causes societies to innovate and engage in 'art.' which creates more complexity, which allows more population density, etc.  Of course, that is one option (the successful one), the other option is Easter Island or other kinds of failure.  What Diamond calls Collapse.





Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 00:49
franciscosan:-
Quote I am not sure that I would consider Mesa Verde "primitive." 

Surely you would agree that the South American cities were for more complex and sophisticated than those at Mesa Verde.

Compared with the majority of North Americans dwellings though, they would have been streets ahead I suppose.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 01:04
Vanuatu:
Quote  Diamond makes the point about Aborigines, why didn't they domestic the kangaroo?  Roos just aren't cows or pigs.

I can think of a few reasons why Kangaroos were not domesticated.

  1. The Australian Aborigines were/are nomadic people from the Stone Age. They built no buildings and lived in small "lean to's" suitable for one or two nights and which were then discarded. They had no concept of fencing in land, people or animals;
  2. The Aborigines didn't form any large tribal groups, they travelled in extended family groups, and bush tucker was readily available-reptiles, birds, Kangaroos and some flora-fish for the coastal dwellers, so why bother?;
  3. Kangaroos would have been incredibly difficult to domesticate for the above reasons, and also apart from food and clothing, they served no other purpose. 
Because they were a nomadic people, wandering hunter/gatherers, it makes archeological finds very difficult, apart from the coastal middens, which, in effect were their rubbish dumps of sea shells.

Also bear in mind that being so isolated from the rest of the human community they remained Stone Age people until settlement by white people in 1788, and even then most of them didn't progress until the mid 20th Century. I think the last Aborigines to be contacted by white people was in the 1950's and they were living exactly how their ancestors did  thousand years ago.




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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 00:52
From
Quote http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub360/item1481.html

 There are various theories describing how migration patterns played a part in the development of early humans. The traditional, widely-accepted "Single Origin, Out of Africa Theory" of human evolution posits that earliest hominids evolved in Africa; that Australopithecus species evolved into Homo species in Africa; that early Homo species migrated to Asia and the Old World from Africa between a million and two million years ago; and that Homo sapiens also evolved in Africa.

 According to the “Out of Africa" theory there were two migration of African-born Homo species. First, Homo erectus began slowly moving into the Middle East, Europe and Asia between a million and two million years ago. Homo erectus splintered into numerous colonies that developed separately from one another. None of the colones outside of Africa contributed to the development of Homo sapiens , which also originally evolved in Africa.


Although there are now alternative views on the movement of human kind from Africa to various parts of the world, this not to overlook the fact that there other ancestral species of man extant at the time.

The migration pattern which interests me is the Great Coastal Migration, where it is believed that the migrants, having left Africa, travelled via a coastal route through South East Asia, South Asia and the Far East to settle in such places as Japan.

Japan has a fairly unique place in the story, as, apart from the Chinese who populated Japan, the country was never successfully invaded by other cultures, and therefore remained pretty much "racially pure". The Original inhabitants of Japan, the Ainu and the Joman people have ancestors alive and well in parts of Japan in modern day.

Most Japanese, but the Ainu etc expecially, share the Haplogroup D2, in which mutations play a major role in their development.

There are other small pockets of D2 in the Andaman Islands, no doubt a leftover from the Great Coastal Migration, in Tibet and Mongolia.

The link referred to provides an interesting read to anyone interested in the movement of human species.

And here I sit, a phenotypically European male, fair skin, blue eyes and brown hair, but with the D2 Haplogroup, relating to my earliest ancestor. My personal DNA has also travelled around Europe, Scandinavia and the British Isles.

The details of that voyage would be incredible.





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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 11:59
Certainly makes the neck hair stand out. They have found DNA in Mongolian girls, blonde haired girls, that share DNA with the historical Amazon women.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/amazon-warrior-women-episode/1464/" rel="nofollow - http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/amazon-warrior-women-episode/1464/  

Of all these amazing discoveries the Neanderthal link to red hair and fair skin is the biggest shock. Going back to my youth the difference in what was believed 40 years ago verses what the science has recently proved is just incredible.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2017 at 13:35
Matrilineal DNA used to show continuous lines in nine individuals. 
http://www.history.com/news/dna-suggests-a-maternal-dynasty-in-ancient-southwest-society" rel="nofollow - http://www.history.com/news/dna-suggests-a-maternal-dynasty-in-ancient-southwest-society

Based on these results, the researchers argue that the Chacoan society was likely hierarchal, with leadership or high social status passing down through the female line. Just as Jewish heritage is passed down from mother to child in some denominations, Chacoan mothers seem to have handed down power and influence to their children. That doesn’t mean that women ruled in the Chacoan civilizations—only that they had an important role in continuing the family line.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 03:33
Vanuatu wrote
Quote Certainly makes the neck hair stand out. They have found DNA in Mongolian girls, blonde haired girls, that share DNA with the historical Amazon women.

In Northern China, in the Tarim Basin, ancient graves have been found-called the Tarim Basin Mummies- which when analysed showed that they were fair haired and European.

There are also records of a caucasian like fair haired, blue eyed people who lived, in ancient times, near the Big Bend in the Yellow River, in China.

The lastest thinking on the former is that they could have been Sogdians or even Tocharians from an area north east of the Chinese borders.

Also, bearing in mind that the Mongol Empire was the largest contiguous empire that the world has ever seen, it would be reasonable, IMHO, to expect a certain amount of cross breeding with women of other cultures across Europe.

I've not read up on the Amazons and their origins, but, now that science seems to be saying that there were sea borne arrivals in the Americas, I'm not really surprised.

Take a look and many indigenous peoples in the Americas, and you will find facial structures very simliar to those in  the Far East. Is this an accident of nature? I don't think so.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 03:36
Vanuatu-
Quote with leadership or high social status passing down through the female line. 

Nothing really changes, does it?

Women have allowed men to think that they are the head of the house for millenia-smart men know differently.Wink


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 03:40
Where would women be without our men? No place for me. Cry

-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 03:54
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu wrote
Quote Certainly makes the neck hair stand out. They have found DNA in Mongolian girls, blonde haired girls, that share DNA with the historical Amazon women.

Also, bearing in mind that the Mongol Empire was the largest contiguous empire that the world has ever seen, it would be reasonable, IMHO, to expect a certain amount of cross breeding with women of other cultures across Europe.

I've not read up on the Amazons and their origins, but, now that science seems to be saying that there were sea borne arrivals in the Americas, I'm not really surprised.

Take a look and many indigenous peoples in the Americas, and you will find facial structures very simliar to those in  the Far East. Is this an accident of nature? I don't think so.



The Mongols started the 5 second rule, ok it was the 12 hour rule. In america if you drop food but scoop it up in 5 seconds, it's ok to eat it. A school kid did some serious research and found that the "rule" originated with the Mongols & Genghis Khan. Except it was 12 hours after game animal was killed, then you just had to walk away. Attila was a prolific baby daddy 5% of the world's male population, 16 million people!

Have you noticed?--no matter the race-- you find recurring features, for example a Barbara Streisand nose. I've seen that nose on every racial type. Henry Louis Gates Jr., is a Harvard guy he had a series where he looked at DNA from well known types like Oprah. So it turns out she's Chinese. I always thought her eyes looked Chinese but also felt like it's something that a person should not comment on.



-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 04:04
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

From [quote]http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub360/item1481.html

 And here I sit, a phenotypically European male, fair skin, blue eyes and brown hair, but with the D2 Haplogroup, relating to my earliest ancestor. My personal DNA has also travelled around Europe, Scandinavia and the British Isles.

The details of that voyage would be incredible.

That is incredible, before you knew about the D2 heritage, did you have an affinity for any of the groups you might be related to?




-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 08:07
Vanuatu:-

In a recent post, I referred you to an article published in The Australian Newspaper.

You weren't able to access that site, I've copied the article for your perusal.

From The Australian Newspaper Feb. 24th 2017.
Quote

Neanderthal ancestors still influencing us through our genes

Higher Education reporter
Sydney
http://twitter.com/JohnRoss49" rel="nofollow -

They are dissed as grunting phil­istines with sloping foreheads and no necks, yet Neanderthals are still having their say, through our DNA.

Seattle researchers have thrown new light on the mechan­isms that enable genetic material passed on from Neanderthals to affect many of us, influencing traits such as height and susceptib­ility to diseases such as schizophrenia and lupus.

“Neanderthal-inherited sequen­ces are not silent remnants of ancient interbreeding,” the scientists report this morning in the journal Cell.

“(They) have measurable impacts­ on gene expression that contribute to variation in modern human phenotypes.”

While Neanderthals are thought to have died out about 40,000 years ago, their DNA comprises about 2 per cent of the genomes of most modern hum­ans.

Neanderthal genetic variants have been linked with vulnerability to conditions ranging from depression and nicotine addiction to precancerous skin lesions and excessive blood clotting.

However, scientists have struggled to decipher the mechan­isms by which Neanderthal genes continue to affect us. While genetic instructions can be extracted from Neanderthal fossils — in fact, the entire Neanderthal genome was sequenced in 2010 — scientists cannot recover the RNA that helped transmit this genetic information.

It is therefore not clear whether Neanderthal genes functioned in the same way as their modern human counterparts.

To answer this question, the researchers mined a genetic database and associated tissue bank called the Genotype-Tissue Expressio­n Project.

They looked for people who carried both Neanderthal and modern human versions of particular genes, with one of these “alleles” inherited from each parent.

For each such gene, the scientists compared how the two ­alleles functioned in 52 different tissues.

Lead author Rajiv McCoy, from the University of Washington, said they behaved differently in about one-quarter of the sites tested.

Co-author Joshua Akey, who helped last year to identify 12 Neande­rthal genes linked with increased risk of significant diseases, said the new study showed that Neanderthal DNA sequences still affected how genes were turned on or off in modern human­s.

“Even 50,000 years after the last human-Neanderthal mating, we can still see measurable impacts­ on gene expression,” Professor Akey said.

“Those little bits and pieces, our Neanderthal relics, are influencing gene expression in pervasive­ and important ways.”

One example was the Nean­derthal version of the “ADAMTSL3” gene, which is associated with height and schizophrenia.

The team found that a single mutation from a Neanderthal ancest­or could increase the risk of schizophrenia by affecting “messenger RNA” involved in protein production.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2017 at 12:57
Some experts have linked the movement of DNA to what they call cultural movements, two of these are the Corded Ware Cultures (c. 2900 BCE – circa 2350 BCE, ) and the Bell Beaker Culture (ca. 2800 – 1800BC,) 

These originated on the Asiatic Steppes region and were allegedly moving around Europe bringing the Asiatic Stepppe DNA with them.

I don't really subscribe to that view. The Corded Ware and Bell Beakers were types of pottery in use during the periods mentioned above, and traces of which have been found throughout parts of Europe.

My view is that, before the Silk Road trade route reached it's peak, (Around 120 BCE – 1450s CE), trade  was being conducted from far away places, like the Asiatic Steppe to Western Europe. I favour the idea that the pottery types were either copied by women who had travelled to the Steppes with their husbands/fathers on trading trips, or the "technology" was taken to Central and Western Europe by young women who had either married or been enslaved by European traders.

I don't see that the actual "culture" of the steppe people, and their DNA, was necessarily travelling around Europe, just the know how to make these two well documented types of pottery.

I've not found any references which categorically argues against my views.




 


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 00:33
I think you mean Genghis Kahn, not Attila the Hun.  You might check.
Kings had first rights, so to speak, and Kahn 'spread' his genes through rape.
There are other populations that have a high representation of one particular
male (a king) in the genes.  I'm not saying it is right, I am just saying
that that is probably what happened.  Again, men got the sword, and
women got pregnant.

There was an article a long time ago in Discover which said that men had
to stick around, because women's fertility is not obvious.  If you have a 
dog in heat, you know when the bitch is fertile (especially if you are another
dog), and so for the male dog, you don't need to be around all the time.
Women's fertility is more secret, and so you need to stick around to 
make sure you are the father.  Unless you are the king and going for
quantity. With father's sticking around, you get culture.

You may have already said, but are the Neanderthal genes primarily in
the male line, or the female line, or can they tell?


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 04:51
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

From [quote]http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub360/item1481.html

 And here I sit, a phenotypically European male, fair skin, blue eyes and brown hair, but with the D2 Haplogroup, relating to my earliest ancestor. My personal DNA has also travelled around Europe, Scandinavia and the British Isles.

The details of that voyage would be incredible.

That is incredible, before you knew about the D2 heritage, did you have an affinity for any of the groups you might be related to?



My maternal bloodline is Irish, but my mother's DNA goes way back to Eastern Europe.

When I received my YDNA results, I was pretty much stunned.

I've had an affinity for Ireland and the Irish for quite some years.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 04:58
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think you mean Genghis Kahn, not Attila the Hun.  You might check.
Kings had first rights, so to speak, and Kahn 'spread' his genes through rape.
There are other populations that have a high representation of one particular
male (a king) in the genes.  I'm not saying it is right, I am just saying
that that is probably what happened.  Again, men got the sword, and
women got pregnant.

There was an article a long time ago in Discover which said that men had
to stick around, because women's fertility is not obvious.  If you have a 
dog in heat, you know when the bitch is fertile (especially if you are another
dog), and so for the male dog, you don't need to be around all the time.
Women's fertility is more secret, and so you need to stick around to 
make sure you are the father.  Unless you are the king and going for
quantity. With father's sticking around, you get culture.

You may have already said, but are the Neanderthal genes primarily in
the male line, or the female line, or can they tell?

franciscosan:

I'm a bit perplexed as to what you're talking about or to whom you are addressing this post.

If you're replying to me, I've never mentioned Attila, nor, from memory did I mention Genghis Khan,per se, just the fact that he founded the greatest contiguous empire the world has seen etc.

But if you think that having raped, ancient men hung around to reap the result, I think you've lost the plot.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 06:37
Quote You may have already said, but are the Neanderthal genes primarily in
the male line, or the female line, or can they tell?

I know that some of the artifacts were female in origin, but, I think the majority have been male.

Geneticists can certainly determine the sex of the person who carried the genes, in some cases they can even tell approximately where they lived and what they ate.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/ is a good place to look for this type of information.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2017 at 14:33
francisosan.

Quote But if you think that having raped, ancient men hung around to reap the result, I think you've lost the plot

I apologise for that comment, it was rude of me and I didn't mean to offend you, it's just that sometimes I have great difficulty understanding what you really mean.




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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2017 at 01:34
yes Genghis Kahn, Shocked

no mitochondrial neanderthal DNA 


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2017 at 06:11
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

yes Genghis Kahn, Shocked

no mitochondrial neanderthal DNA 

Sorry, you've lost me.

I don't understand what you have written.  Question


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 02:47
There are millions who have Genghis Kahn as an ancestor (not Attila the Hun).

I was asking if they knew if it was male or female neanderthals, from which the neanderthal DNA comes from.  So Vanuatu said, no mitochondrial neanderthal DNA.  (I believe mitochondrial comes from the mother...?)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 03:32
The mitochondrial DNA from Neanderthal does not resemble DNA in the mtDNA of people living today. Or from ancient Homo Sapiens.

All they have so far are the mutations that link our species to Neanderthal occurring 500,000 years ago. That suggests but doesn't prove that Neanderthal didn't contribute to our gene pool.
 
http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals/neanderthal-mitochondrial-dna" rel="nofollow - http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/ancient-dna-and-neanderthals/neanderthal-mitochondrial-dna

Researchers have also studied ancient DNA from anatomically modern Homo sapiens from Europe dating to the same time period as the Neanderthals. Material from two Paglicci Cave, Italy individuals, dated to 23,000 and 25,000 years old, was sequenced. The Paglicci Homo sapiens mtDNA sequences were different from all Neanderthal mtDNA sequences but were within the range of variation for modern human mtDNA sequences (Caramelli et al. 2003). Mitochondrial DNA from the Paglicci specimens as well as other ancient humans fit within the range of modern humans, but the Neanderthals remain consistently genetically distinct. This shows that early anatomically modern Homo sapiens were not very different genetically from current modern humans, but were still different from Neanderthals. Though this evidence does not disprove the idea of Neanderthal and modern human admixture, it shows that moderns and Neanderthals did not have more genetic similarities during the Pleistocene that were subsequently lost. If interbreeding did occur, Neanderthal mtDNA sequences could have been lost due to genetic drift.


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 05:15
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There are millions who have Genghis Kahn as an ancestor (not Attila the Hun).

I was asking if they knew if it was male or female neanderthals, from which the neanderthal DNA comes from.  So Vanuatu said, no mitochondrial neanderthal DNA.  (I believe mitochondrial comes from the mother...?)

Yes, you're quite correct. Millions of men show Genghis Kahn DNA(Traces).

I'm not sure of Vanuatu's quote is up to date.

See http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2011/08/no-evidence-for-neandertal-admixture.html

Neanderthal MtDNA has been extracted, and shown to be not present in modern humans.

See http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0020057

Quote The retrieval of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences from four Neandertal fossils from Germany, Russia, and Croatia has demonstrated that these individuals carried closely related mtDNAs that are not found among current humans. However, these results do not definitively resolve the question of a possible Neandertal contribution to the gene pool of modern humans since such a contribution might have been erased by genetic drift or by the continuous influx of modern human DNA into the Neandertal gene pool. A further concern is that if some Neandertals carried mtDNA sequences similar to contemporaneous humans, such sequences may be erroneously regarded as modern contaminations when retrieved from fossils. Here we address these issues by the analysis of 24 Neandertal and 40 early modern human remains. The biomolecular preservation of four Neandertals and of five early modern humans was good enough to suggest the preservation of DNA. All four Neandertals yielded mtDNA sequences similar to those previously determined from Neandertal individuals, whereas none of the five early modern humans contained such mtDNA sequences. In combination with current mtDNA data, this excludes any large genetic contribution by Neandertals to early modern humans, but does not rule out the possibility of a smaller contribution.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_human_admixture_with_modern_humans
Quote Through  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole-genome_sequencing" rel="nofollow - whole-genome sequencing , a 2010 draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome revealed that Neanderthals shared more alleles with Eurasian populations (e.g. French, Han Chinese, and Papua New Guinean) than with Sub-Saharan African populations (e.g. Yoruba and San). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_human_admixture_with_modern_humans#cite_note-greends-2" rel="nofollow - [2]  According to the study, the observed excess of genetic similarity is best explained by recent  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_flow" rel="nofollow - gene flow  from Neanderthals to modern humans after the migration out of Africa. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_human_admixture_with_modern_humans#cite_note-greends-2" rel="nofollow - [2]  The proportion of Neanderthal-derived ancestry was estimated to be 1–4% of the Eurasian genome. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_human_admixture_with_modern_humans#cite_note-greends-2" rel="nofollow - [2]  In 2013, the same team of researchers revised the proportion to an estimated 1.5–2.1%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_human_admixture_with_modern_humans#cite_note-pruf13comal-3" rel="nofollow - [3]  They also found that the Neanderthal component in non-African modern humans was more related to the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezmaiskaya_cave" rel="nofollow - Mezmaiskaya  Neanderthal ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus" rel="nofollow - Caucasus ) than to the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisova_Cave" rel="nofollow - Altai  Neanderthal ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia" rel="nofollow - Siberia ) or the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindija_Cave" rel="nofollow - Vindija  Neanderthals (Croatia). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_human_admixture_with_modern_humans#cite_note-pruf13comal-3" rel="nofollow - [3]  Analyzing the genomes of Europeans and East Asians, it has been found that about 20% of the Neanderthal genome is still present in the modern human population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_human_admixture_with_modern_humans#cite_note-vern14res-4" rel="nofollow - [4]

So, while there is no similarity with the modern MtDNA, obviously MtDNA has been extracted from ancient artifacts.





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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 05:21
Yes and in the first sentence of the post if you notice the lack of similarity with humans today is mentioned.

-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 05:36
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Yes and in the first sentence of the post if you notice the lack of similarity with humans today is mentioned.

Yes, you're quite correct, and I didn't mean to infer that you'd claimed otherwise.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 14:34

Ancient Aliens TV series, (Origins of Man) asks why we homo sapien sapien would loose body hair when we needed animal skins and fur to survive after losing it? And how would it be a successful adaptation if man wasn't changed at the level of DNA by aliens? If he didn't know about fire and tool making he'd be at peril (Naked Ape). The Sumerians had the Annunaki -being creators of man, giving language to man. Lots of other myths with sky gods giving man language.
http://www.annunaki.org/sumerian-aliens/" rel="nofollow - http://www.annunaki.org/sumerian-aliens/

It is possible now to edit human DNA, no human trials but accepted as possible. 


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2017 at 20:27
damn aliens!  First  they take our jobs, then they edit our DNA!
<grin>
Just wait until President Trump hears this!

If they did edit our DNA, I don't think they did a good job.

DNA is a TLA.  Does anyone know what DNA stands for, 
without looking it up?  I vote for leaving it alone, unless 
we know what we are doing (which for humans seems to
be hardly ever.)

IF humans were founded by aliens, then where do the aliens
come from?  Biologically speaking.  I mean just saying that
aliens did it just adds another level of complication to the mix.
We might not now have to explain how _we_ got language,
but then we have to explain how aliens got language.  With
us however, we have information whereas for aliens (who are
not wetbacks), we have nothing but suppositions.  And if
we are going to a previous step, why don't we make the
ultimate step and say the big G did it?  Cut out the middle
men, or BEMs as the case may be (Bug Eyed Monsters). 

The difference between conservatives and liberals is:
Liberals say, if we don't know why it is there, get rid of it.
Whereas Conservatives say, if we don't know why it is there, leave it alone.
To edit or not to edit, that is the question? 
Hippocrates says do no harm.  (Hippocratic Oath)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 03:24
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

damn aliens!  First  they take our jobs, then they edit our DNA!
<grin>
Just wait until President Trump hears this!

If they did edit our DNA, I don't think they did a good job.

DNA is a TLA.  Does anyone know what DNA stands for, 
without looking it up?  I vote for leaving it alone, unless 
we know what we are doing (which for humans seems to
be hardly ever.)

IF humans were founded by aliens, then where do the aliens
come from?  Biologically speaking.  I mean just saying that
aliens did it just adds another level of complication to the mix.
We might not now have to explain how _we_ got language,
but then we have to explain how aliens got language.  With
us however, we have information whereas for aliens (who are
not wetbacks), we have nothing but suppositions.  And if
we are going to a previous step, why don't we make the
ultimate step and say the big G did it?  Cut out the middle
men, or BEMs as the case may be (Bug Eyed Monsters). 

The difference between conservatives and liberals is:
Liberals say, if we don't know why it is there, get rid of it.
Whereas Conservatives say, if we don't know why it is there, leave it alone.
To edit or not to edit, that is the question? 
Hippocrates says do no harm.  (Hippocratic Oath)

Yea I'll have the last laugh in my tinfoil hat.Cool 
Deoxyribonucleic acid. Genetically engineered by aliens, editing the fetus creating breeding pairs. The offspring still breed with the various other types of hominids "original sin." God /aliens flood the earth but save Noah, to keep the experiment going.

Oh and the DNA editing today is about parents wanting their fetus to be altered for height, hair/ eye color.  


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 03:34
Oh, I'd be very careful of what you say and write you two.

You never know who may be listening, and they may not take kindly to you dismissing them so easily.

Area 51 Never went away.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 03:49
To add a little fuel to our discussion, the following comes from http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/ancient-skulls-found-china-could-belong-unidentified-human-species-021256

Quote
http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/Unidentified-Human-Species.jpg" rel="nofollow">
Ancient Skulls Found in China Could Belong to an Unidentified Human Species
6 MARCH, 2017 - 13:46  http://www.ancient-origins.net/users/theodoros-karasavvas" rel="nofollow - THEODOROS KARASAVVAS

Ancient Skulls Found in China Could Belong to an Unidentified Human Species

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins/ancient-skulls-found-china-could-belong-unidentified-human-species-021256?nopaging=1" rel="nofollow - (Read the article on one page)

A team of scientists has discovered two partial human skulls in central China that could possibly belong to an unspecified archaic human species. The skulls are 105,000 to 125,000 years old, and they carry a distinctive blend of contemporary human and Neanderthal features. The skulls were found during excavations at Lingjing, Xuchang County in Henan Province, between 2007 and 2014.

Read the remainder of this report at the above link.

It seems that there is a new twist every month or so.





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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 04:37
There could have been civilizations before the Etruscans and Assyrians, suddenly gone bc of earth quakes, conquest, slavery. Technology and culture left behind.

-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 04:50
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

There could have been civilizations before the Etruscans and Assyrians, suddenly gone bc of earth quakes, conquest, slavery. Technology and culture left behind.

I would have thought that there probably was, but this article touches on the admixture of Human YDNA, and the possibility/probability that apart from Home Sapien, Neanderthal and Denisovan cross breeding, there was yet another people who were or could have been involved.

As technology gains new footholds, it's possible that other species will be found to have bred with some or all of the above.

Homo Sapien Sapiens came out of Africa, but whom did they encounter on their travels?




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 22:54
I have heard the if you breed a horse and jack-ass you get a democrat?
It is bad enough that we mess with Frankenfood, although there are reasons
why that is convenient.  Now we feel like we have to mess around with
the genome.  I suggest the movie Gattaca.

It is interesting that man, and a few animals domesticated by him are
able to run distances.  Most animals cannot really do anything more than
a sprint.  Horses can, and dogs can, having been conditioned to run long
distances.  But it is an interesting question which traits, (distance, hair loss
for main body, language, tool use) which came first and what came
after that.  I imagine descent from the trees, and development of hands were
early.
Of course, aliens could take care of that easy, problem is how do explain the 
aliens?  I think that there are no aliens, but are us time traveling back from the
far future.  We will be the aliens of the future, and of the past.  But _iff_ there
is anyone good enough to do time travel, they would also be good enough to
hide their tracks.  So it is not like that we will ever catch them with their pants
down, because if they do time travel, probability travel, they can change 
things before hand, after the fact.  But "aliens" is not a good way of explaining
_anything_, because aliens explains _everything_.  I lost my carkeys, aliens
must have done it!  So where are they?  Where do I look?  I dunno....


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 04:07
I think geneticists and other medical scientists are between a rock and a hard place.

It's possible to detect some future diseases in humans, such as Cancer, through examination of certain genes. If this was performed in vitro, and that gene deliberately altered so that the disease/illness could never occur, it would add to the life span of human beings. But at what expense?

The world is facing a food crisis within the next hundred years or so, due to overpopulation and natural events. To add to the overpopulation by genetically altered humans would raise heated debate on the matter. 

Are we about to breed ourselves into oblivion?

As to aliens, as I've written ad nauseum, I personally won't rule them in or out, I simply don't know.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 23:41
Water is the next crisis, it is the crisis now but much like a mortgage bubble this just hasn't burst yet.

Some fitness experts say that humans should live to be 120 years old. If we didn't kill ourselves with food additives and pharmaceuticals. Also have the corn conspiracy where the chemicals being sprayed will de-sex us over time. We will have great swaths of non reproducing jack-asses.

No evolutionary reason for us to lose fur AND survive unless we were smart enough to cover up. 


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2017 at 08:57
Yes, if we all lived pure healthy lives, shunning all of those foodstuffs which are bad for us, but are heaven to the taste, and if we exercised regularly and looked after our bodies-no TV, no movies, we would all live long boring miserable lives.

About the only pleasure left for most of us would be the occasional indoor gymnastics. Wink


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2017 at 01:13
A friend pointed out that human skin is attached to the muscle, whereas animal skin (for example dog) have loose skin, but I am not sure what the evolutionary advantage is, nor whether other animals (vertebrates) have this attachment between skin and muscle also, (dolphin, water creatures?).


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 11:41
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

A friend pointed out that human skin is attached to the muscle, whereas animal skin (for example dog) have loose skin, but I am not sure what the evolutionary advantage is, nor whether other animals (vertebrates) have this attachment between skin and muscle also, (dolphin, water creatures?).

Yes, but this doesn't get to the heart of the OP.

There are many authoratative articles on the internet about genetics and human history/development.

I'd really like to know more about the cross breeding that took place between Homo Sapiens Sapiens, Neanderthals, Denisovand, and any other species or sub-species of man, such as Heildelbergensis, Peking Man and so on.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 20:52
It is a tangential, think of it as "genetic drift."   'if you get my drift...Rolling on the floor'
but seriously, if you can tighten it up and bring it more to the point, do so.
However, I do wonder why man's skin is tight, and animal's skin is loose, what kind of environs, natural or manmade influenced evolution to create it that way.

It is not really genetics, but it is part of the natural history of mankind.  Some kind of forces introduced this change into the human makeup, and I am sure there is an evolutionary (genetic) response.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 22:46
If a dog is bitten by another dog he won't necessarily be immobilized. The dog can still potentially swing around to bite even if he is bitten at the neck. Loose skin is for hunters like the sharpei, hounds, wolves too.

-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2017 at 00:28
franciscosan wrote
 
Quote However, I do wonder why man's skin is tight, and animal's skin is loose, what kind of environs, natural or manmade influenced evolution to create it that way.

Is this just another type of naval gazing?

I've seen a few humans with very loose skin too-and usually far too much of it.LOL


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2017 at 20:53
Human skin is attached to the muscle (or fat then muscle).
animals don't have their skin attached to the muscle.
Realizing how things are and "why" they are that way, helps us figure out something new.  In this case there are probably evolutionary advantages each way (attached or unattached), which help the critter survive and thrive.  Vanuatu gives some good reasons for the unattached.

It could be navel gazing, and evolutionary at the same time, when you see a cute young thang with a tight belly, you want to offer to buy her lunch.  (btw, when I say a girl is "cute" (and young), I am placing her off-limits for an middle-aged guy like me, but I am sure someone will buy her lunch.)

Last of all, "that's just gotta be jelly, because jam don't shake like that."  (said of Jellyroll Martin, amongst others.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 00:35
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Human skin is attached to the muscle (or fat then muscle).
animals don't have their skin attached to the muscle.
Realizing how things are and "why" they are that way, helps us figure out something new.  In this case there are probably evolutionary advantages each way (attached or unattached), which help the critter survive and thrive.  Vanuatu gives some good reasons for the unattached.

It could be navel gazing, and evolutionary at the same time, when you see a cute young thang with a tight belly, you want to offer to buy her lunch.  (btw, when I say a girl is "cute" (and young), I am placing her off-limits for an middle-aged guy like me, but I am sure someone will buy her lunch.)

Last of all, "that's just gotta be jelly, because jam don't shake like that."  (said of Jellyroll Martin, amongst others.

But there is a lot of human skin where no muscles exist.

As for cute young thangs with tight bellies, I wouldn't go near her, old I may be, but.....

And-
"You gotta have skin.
All you really need is skin.
Skin's the thing that if you got it outside, 
It helps keep your insides in.
It covers your nose, 
And it's wrapped around your toes.
And inside it you put lemon meringue, 
And outside ya hang your clothes.
Skin is what ya feel at home in.
And without it, furthermore, 
Both your liver and abdomen
Would keep falling on the floor.
(And you'd be dressed in your intestine)
A Siamese twin
Needs an extra set of skin.
When the doctor knows that you're feeling sick
Where does he stick his needle in?
In the end of your skin.
All your friends and all your kinfolks, 
Whether poor or whether rich, 
They have all got lots of skin, folks, 
It's convenient when they itch.
(Nothing can match it when ya scratch it)
It fits perfectly.
Yours fits you, and mine fits me.
When you're sitting down, it folds and looks grand.
And then when you stand, it's where it's been.
Ain't ya glad you've got skin! 
When you were just a little baby, why your skin fit fine.
And it still is gonna fit you when you're six foot nine.
So whether you're fat, tall, big, small, chubby or thin, 
Ain't ya glad you've got skin?
Songwriters: QUARMBY, JON/LEWIS, EPHRAIM
Skin lyrics © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC, CURTAIN CALL PRODUCTIONS"

I think that explains it succinctly.  LOL


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 22:41
"It ain't no sin to slip out of your skin, and dance around in your bones."

Holy Ghost People, Whitman College band mid 1980s.

Do you know the expression, "give me some skin!"?  Same as "give me five." or "give me ten."

But we digress.  Skin is more than just a shell to keep everything in (or out).  It is active, alive.

I imagine that there are some diseases of the skin, such as albinoism, that are due to genetic defects.  Of course, studying these defects can help figure out the genes related to the defects.  There are the people who walk on all fours, and sure enough there is a defect in their genes that relates to that.  There is family in Columbia who suffers from early onslaught Alzheimers, and sure enough it appears in their genes.

These days if you have conjoined twins (Siamese twins), a world class team of surgeons will assemble to separate the two, usually for free.  What if, any time you had some great abnormality, or not so great abnormality, you got credit for furthering science instead of just a huge bill?


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2017 at 23:19
I think we're digressing too far from the OP, don't you?




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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2017 at 13:20
I hate it when my abdomen falls on the floor.

If humans lost fur due to changes in behavior, such as running (not to overheat theory- when running man lost fur) it could have caused other behavioral changes, after a million naked years, such as tool making, clothing and cooking. 

Would hominids living in cold places ever have the same cultural changes? We know they lost the skin pigment. In cold places would fur loss have had the same behavioral effects as in Africa? If the date of fur-loss was 1.2 million years ago and multiple groups of hominids had left Africa. 


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2017 at 17:49
Vanuatu
Quote I hate it when my abdomen falls on the floor.

Just pick yourself up,
Dust yourself off
And start all over again.
(Credit to Jerome Kern)

Quote  In cold places would fur loss have had the same behavioral effects as in Africa? If the date of fur-loss was 1.2 million years ago and multiple groups of hominids had left Africa

I don't know that hominids leaving Africa would have had fur, probably not I'd suggest. I think that growing fur was an interim measure until man learned how to kill and skin the beasts, and realise that the animal skins would provide protection from the cold in winter, and be able to be discarded in summer.

Quote Neanderthal fossils have been found in caves, leading to the popular idea of them as “cave men.” Like humans, Neanderthals originated in Africa but migrated toEurasia long before humans did. Neanderthals lived across Eurasia, as far north and west as the Britain, through part of the Middle East, to Uzbekistan.
from Wikipedia.

But,
Quote https://sites.google.com/a/umn.../neanderthals/where-and-when-did-neanderthals-live
https://www.google.com.au/search?espv=2&q=Where+did+Neanderthals+come+from%3F.&oq=Where+did+Neanderthals+come+from%3F.&gs_l=serp.3..0i30k1j0i8i30k1.76088.86839.0.87504.33.33.0.0.0.0.557.5756.0j14j4j2j2j1.23.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..17.16.3920...0j0i10k1j0i10i30k1j0i13i10i30k1.eDaX6_YmF6E#" rel="nofollow -
  1. https://www.google.com.au/search?espv=2&q=related:https://sites.google.com/a/umn.edu/neanderthals/where-and-when-did-neanderthals-live+Where+did+Neanderthals+come+from%3F.&tbo=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi11dGni97SAhWCULwKHWQ0BjYQHwh-MBI" rel="nofollow -
Where did Neanderthals come from? Unlike modern humans and most other hominids, Neanderthals did not arise out of Africa; they are indigenous to Europe.

So, what to believe? And did other hominids arise out of Africa too? Heidelbergensis, Peking Man and so on?

I'll have to do some more reading.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2017 at 01:00
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu
Quote I hate it when my abdomen falls on the floor.

Just pick yourself up,
Dust yourself off
And start all over again.
(Credit to Jerome Kern)

Quote  In cold places would fur loss have had the same behavioral effects as in Africa? If the date of fur-loss was 1.2 million years ago and multiple groups of hominids had left Africa

I don't know that hominids leaving Africa would have had fur, probably not I'd suggest. I think that growing fur was an interim measure until man learned how to kill and skin the beasts, and realise that the animal skins would provide protection from the cold in winter, and be able to be discarded in summer.

Quote Neanderthal fossils have been found in caves, leading to the popular idea of them as “cave men.” Like humans, Neanderthals originated in Africa but migrated toEurasia long before humans did. Neanderthals lived across Eurasia, as far north and west as the Britain, through part of the Middle East, to Uzbekistan.
from Wikipedia.

But,
Quote https://sites.google.com/a/umn.../neanderthals/where-and-when-did-neanderthals-live
https://www.google.com.au/search?espv=2&q=Where+did+Neanderthals+come+from%3F.&oq=Where+did+Neanderthals+come+from%3F.&gs_l=serp.3..0i30k1j0i8i30k1.76088.86839.0.87504.33.33.0.0.0.0.557.5756.0j14j4j2j2j1.23.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..17.16.3920...0j0i10k1j0i10i30k1j0i13i10i30k1.eDaX6_YmF6E#" rel="nofollow -
  1. https://www.google.com.au/search?espv=2&q=related:https://sites.google.com/a/umn.edu/neanderthals/where-and-when-did-neanderthals-live+Where+did+Neanderthals+come+from%3F.&tbo=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi11dGni97SAhWCULwKHWQ0BjYQHwh-MBI" rel="nofollow -
Where did Neanderthals come from? Unlike modern humans and most other hominids, Neanderthals did not arise out of Africa; they are indigenous to Europe.

So, what to believe? And did other hominids arise out of Africa too? Heidelbergensis, Peking Man and so on?

I'll have to do some more reading.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/16/1329468/-Getting-Naked-How-Early-Humans-Lost-Their-Fur" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/10/16/1329468/-Getting-Naked-How-Early-Humans-Lost-Their-Fur

Sorry, badly worded. You are too kind. This article has the shedding at 1.2 MYA, using the mutations in skin color, very interesting.

"By counting up the number of mutations in this gene and applying a "molecular clock" to determine how long it would take for these mutations to appear, Rogers was able to estimate that this switch came around 1.2 million years ago. It is likely that this change happened in our hominid ancestors Homo erectus (or Homo ergaster, depending on whether you are a lumper or a splitter). Before that time, we were furry animals with light-colored skin; after that, we were naked animals with dark-colored skin."

So I wondered once these naked apes got to east or west Asia they would need new skills. They would have a different set of problems to solve compared to the African naked apes. The next time these ape cousins meet, one of them is Cro Magnon. It's accepted that CM were advanced and evolution selected them. 
Did exploring the planet at that early date cinch the evolutionary dead end for Neanderthal & Denisovians? Did fighting cold weather suppress advancement intellectually?


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2017 at 06:54
Vanuatu wrote
Quote Did fighting cold weather suppress advancement intellectually?

I wouldn't have thought so.

My thinking is that, having travelled over thousands of years from their urheimat (is that the correct word?) ancient man would have needed to learn new skills in order to exist in different climates to which he was accustomed in Africa.

I don't have an answer as to who else Homo Sapiens Sapiens may have met and bred with. We know about Neanderthals and Denisovans, and there is strong suspicion that there were other admixtures. Just haven't found the proof yet, although there are still ancient skeletal artifacts which have not been identified.

I find the evolution of man from supposedly dumb ape like creature-and modern apes are certainly not dumb-into the so-called intelligent beings who now populate this world.

Of course, some of the current human race have yet to display their intelligence, and I speak of vandals, people who kill or assault others for no reason, and so on.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 00:54
I tend to not think of animals as dumb. They know exactly what they must know and continue to learn. There is a type of frog that breeds on land or water. It's water loving cousins have a spur on the back leg used to connect the couple to ensure successful copulation while in the water. 
The land cousins, if placed in water while displaying pair bonding will produce offspring with spurs. That's it, one generation and they are adapting.

I don't think humans have that kind of instant adaptive potential not biologically. People survived in isolated places during WW2 in Siberia and reproduced but they didn't seem to evolve much, they merely continued to survive. With no down time, no leisure, how could a human advance intellectually?
It seems like asking someone in a labor camp to build a better mousetrap.



-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 04:04
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I tend to not think of animals as dumb. They know exactly what they must know and continue to learn. There is a type of frog that breeds on land or water. It's water loving cousins have a spur on the back leg used to connect the couple to ensure successful copulation while in the water. 
The land cousins, if placed in water while displaying pair bonding will produce offspring with spurs. That's it, one generation and they are adapting.

I don't think humans have that kind of instant adaptive potential not biologically. People survived in isolated places during WW2 in Siberia and reproduced but they didn't seem to evolve much, they merely continued to survive. With no down time, no leisure, how could a human advance intellectually?
It seems like asking someone in a labor camp to build a better mousetrap.


No down time doesn't equate to the lack of thought being given to everyday problems-like survival.
 
A classic example of human evolution to suit their habitat is the Tibetans who have learned to live at atmospheres in which most of the rest of us couldn't without breathing apparatus. And there's an example of intellectual advancement as well, the development of breathing apparatus which enables humans to breath at high altitudes and also beneath the water.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 15:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

I tend to not think of animals as dumb. They know exactly what they must know and continue to learn. There is a type of frog that breeds on land or water. It's water loving cousins have a spur on the back leg used to connect the couple to ensure successful copulation while in the water. 
The land cousins, if placed in water while displaying pair bonding will produce offspring with spurs. That's it, one generation and they are adapting.

I don't think humans have that kind of instant adaptive potential not biologically. People survived in isolated places during WW2 in Siberia and reproduced but they didn't seem to evolve much, they merely continued to survive. With no down time, no leisure, how could a human advance intellectually?
It seems like asking someone in a labor camp to build a better mousetrap.


No down time doesn't equate to the lack of thought being given to everyday problems-like survival.
 
A classic example of human evolution to suit their habitat is the Tibetans who have learned to live at atmospheres in which most of the rest of us couldn't without breathing apparatus. And there's an example of intellectual advancement as well, the development of breathing apparatus which enables humans to breath at high altitudes and also beneath the water.



Yes there are theories about climate and hominid adaptability. You might like this article it's similar to what you've said. However, I don't think I suggested a lack of ability to problem solve on a daily basis. I suggested that leisure time made it possible to develop culture, which is not news. 

http://humanorigins.si.edu/research/climate-and-human-evolution/climate-effects-human-evolution" rel="nofollow - http://humanorigins.si.edu/research/climate-and-human-evolution/climate-effects-human-evolution

Everyday survival would be paramount. It seems that hominid appearances in the fossil record and tool making do coincide with times of climactic upheaval. Yes the Tibetans Shao Lin Monks, Bedouins and hominid groups adapted to hostile environments.
Although leisure time was a factor in cultural evolution. That is why I mention leisure time.

With the dawn of agriculture 10,000 years ago, humans embarked on a new experiment -- rather than adapting to our environment, we began adapting our environment to meet our needs, slashing and burning forests to create room for agriculture. That, in turn, allowed more leisure time, larger societies and a freer exchange of information. As cultural and technological knowledge improved, we were able to harness the energy of other animals and, in time, harness the dramatic power of fossil fuels as well.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-may-be-most-adaptive-species/" rel="nofollow - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/humans-may-be-most-adaptive-species/




-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 00:05
Vanuatu wrote
Quote With the dawn of agriculture 10,000 years ago, humans embarked on a new experiment -- rather than adapting to our environment, we began adapting our environment to meet our needs, slashing and burning forests to create room for agriculture. That, in turn, allowed more leisure time, larger societies and a freer exchange of information. As cultural and technological knowledge improved, we were able to harness the energy of other animals and, in time, harness the dramatic power of fossil fuels as well.

Yes, you're quite right. But at what expense? 

I'm not a tree hugger, never have been, but human kinds unfettered destruction of native forests is now beginning to reveal the grave mistake that was made. Fewer trees means more CO2 in the atmosphere which is one of the factors in global warming.

I think that, if it survives, human kind will have to have a long think over the next millenia about perhaps reinstating the environment somehow, or be forced to adapt radically to the new environment.

As more human physical tasks become mechanised, scientists predict that human physiology will change to a less active mode, bringing about who knows what.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 00:14
To say something is a mistake implies that we have a choice.  To say that we have a choice, or at least a rational choice, implies that we could have articulated a course of action that was different than what we did.  I am not a determinist, but I don't really find it useful to say we could have done something different, we don't really know that.  All we know is that climate change is a concern today, not just the only concern, but a concern.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 01:16
Do you mean that we're genetically hardwired to do things without considering alternatives?

That we have no choice but to do the frst thing that pops into our heads?

Historically, Homo Sapiens have made some poor choices over millenia, and evolved to include new found knowledge, probably by experimentation, in order to meet certain needs.

Sadly, some Homo Sapiens act on impulse, and some act on pure unadulterated greed.

Someone famous once said,"Forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do." And he was right.

Of course we have choices, and, with the advancement of science and technology we have more choices virtually every day.

But this is trending to stray off the path from the OP.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 01:45
Thom Hartman works with kids and adults who have ADD/ADHD, clinical words for people who must be actively engaged mentally or their behavior becomes an issue for others around them. He has a theory about genetic traits and behavior. I've added the link but for a quick look this table is a breth of fresh air. All this modern diagnosis and neurosis is tedious.
http://www.thomhartmann.com/articles/2007/11/thom-hartmanns-hunter-and-farmer-approach-addadhd" rel="nofollow - http://www.thomhartmann.com/articles/2007/11/thom-hartmanns-hunter-and-farmer-approach-addadhd  

Taken from Thom Hartmann's book, "ADD: A Different Perception."

Trait as it appears in the "Disorder" view:How it appears in the "Hunter" view:Opposite "Farmer" traits:
Attention spans short, but can become intensely focused for the long periods of time.Constantly monitoring their environment.Not easily distracted from the task at hand.
Poor planner: disorganized and impulsive (makes snap decisions).Able to throw themselves into the chase on a moment's notice.Able to sustain a steady, dependable effort.
Distorted sense of time: unaware of how long it will take to do something.Flexible; ready to change strategy quickly.Organized, purposeful. They have a long term strategy and they stick to it.
Impatient.Tireless: capable of sustained drives, but only when "Hot on the trail" of some goal.Conscious of time and timing. They get things done in time, pace themselves, have good "staying power."
Doesn't convert words into concepts adeptly, and vice versa. May or may not have a reading disability.Visual/Concrete thinker, clearly seeing a tangible goal even if there are no words for it.Patient. Aware that good thing takes time - willing to wait.
Has difficulty following directions.Independent.Team player.
Daydreamer.Bored by mundane tasks; enjoy new ideas, excitement, "the hunt" being hot on the trial.Focused. Good at follow-through, tending to details, "taking care of business."
Acts without considering consequences.Willing and able to take risk and face danger.Careful. "looking before you leap."
Lacking in the social graces."No time for niceties when there are decisions to be made!"Nurturing; creates and supports community values; attuned to whether something will last.



-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 13:19
I'm currently looking for info on precisely what effect the presence of Neanderthal or Denisovan has on human DNA, as opposed to that DNA which has no other construct.

Doifferences in SNP's 
[quotesingle-nucleotide polymorphism, often abbreviated to SNP ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English" rel="nofollow - / - ˈ - n - p/ ; plural  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English" rel="nofollow - / - ˈ - n - p), is a variation in a single  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleotide" rel="nofollow - nucleotide  that occurs at a specific position in the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome" rel="nofollow - genome , where each variation is present to some appreciable degree within a population[/quote] from Wiki

These can, and do effects various phenotypes in the make up of individual. Changes are noticeable where there are mutations of the genetic mkeup-which lead to ultimate differences in HaploGroups.

Each HaploGroup results in differences, quite often very minor, in the human phenotype.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 02:43
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I'm currently looking for info on precisely what effect the presence of Neanderthal or Denisovan has on human DNA, as opposed to that DNA which has no other construct.

Doifferences in SNP's 
[quotesingle-nucleotide polymorphism, often abbreviated to SNP ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English" rel="nofollow - / - ˈ - n - p/ ; plural  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English" rel="nofollow - / - ˈ - n - p), is a variation in a single  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleotide" rel="nofollow - nucleotide  that occurs at a specific position in the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genome" rel="nofollow - genome , where each variation is present to some appreciable degree within a population
from Wiki

These can, and do effects various phenotypes in the make up of individual. Changes are noticeable where there are mutations of the genetic mkeup-which lead to ultimate differences in HaploGroups.

Each HaploGroup results in differences, quite often very minor, in the human phenotype.
[/QUOTE]

http://www.abroadintheyard.com/20-physical-traits-inherited-from-neanderthal/" rel="nofollow - http://www.abroadintheyard.com/20-physical-traits-inherited-from-neanderthal/




-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2017 at 10:01
So, do we assume (very dangerous) that mutations caused the various phenotypes seen today?



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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2017 at 13:29
There's a small section on the male  Y-Chromosome that is non-recombinant ( meaning that it doesn't combine with the ordinary autosomal DNA). And so it is passed on from father to son in a pure state, and thus can be used to trace back a male lineage through all the generations.  

The same can be done with a female lineage through an entirely different process. Mitochondrial DNA exists outside the nucleus of the ova (the female sex cell), and thus it's also non-recombinant, and is passed on in a pure state from a mother to all of her children, both sons and daughters. But since it's passed on through the ova, only the daughters will pass it on to their own children. Thus a female lineage can also be traced through all the generations.

I'm not sure how this can be applied to learning if Neanderthal people contributed to the genome of modern humans, or to what extent, but it would be interesting to find out.


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Dis Aliter Visum
"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 02:29
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

So, do we assume (very dangerous) that mutations caused the various phenotypes seen today?


It seems to be the consensus. Red hair is a mutation that we can see, I'm 100% sure that Colin Tudge (The Engineer in the Garden) attributes gene mutation as the origin of sickle cell anemia and cystic fibrosis.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 03:01
Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

There's a small section on the male  Y-Chromosome that is non-recombinant ( meaning that it doesn't combine with the ordinary autosomal DNA). And so it is passed on from father to son in a pure state, and thus can be used to trace back a male lineage through all the generations.  

The same can be done with a female lineage through an entirely different process. Mitochondrial DNA exists outside the nucleus of the ova (the female sex cell), and thus it's also non-recombinant, and is passed on in a pure state from a mother to all of her children, both sons and daughters. But since it's passed on through the ova, only the daughters will pass it on to their own children. Thus a female lineage can also be traced through all the generations.

I'm not sure how this can be applied to learning if Neanderthal people contributed to the genome of modern humans, or to what extent, but it would be interesting to find out.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/genetics-ancient-humans-evolution-gibraltar-neanderthals-dna-science-a7615986.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/genetics-ancient-humans-evolution-gibraltar-neanderthals-dna-science-a7615986.html
Hi Windemere,
It seems that the analysis of genes has produced evidence that Neanderthals contributed a resilience to some disease and introduced some pathogens as well.
Just a few short years ago everyone posited the theory that light skin resulted from Northern populations absorbing less vitamin D over time. The link explains that a new theory based on gene research has provided an accurate (to date) origin for this mutation. Now that the Neanderthal genome has been sequenced, Denisovans the eastern cousins, and their mysteries may begin to reveal themselves. 


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 00:16
Most mutations are detrimental to the survival of the organism.  Some, like sickle cell are beneficial in certain contexts (malaria) when they a recessive.  I worry about us trying to get rid of "disadvantageous" adoptions too much, without first understanding why they are there.  For example, Lincoln and Churchill were depressives, and obviously the right people in the right place at the right time.  Most people run away from a fire, but some people run towards a fire, wanting to help put it out, contain it.  That is usually manic behavior, but it is also an advantage for a community to have a few people around that are like that.  If you are in a platoon, you want to have a few people in there that have a controlled mania that will keep you alive, because of their extra vigilance, their endurance, their aggressiveness.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 06:38
From http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/
Quote

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2017/03/incipient-mongoloids-or-elusive.html" rel="nofollow -
The authors claim that these archaic humans from China show parallels to both modern eastern Eurasians (Mongoloids) and to Neandertals. The relationship with the Neandertals makes them prime candidates for the elusive Denisovans who were a sister group to Neandertals but are morphologically unknown (since all we've got is a genome, teeth, and a pinky). The relationship with Mongoloids suggest an appearance of Mongoloid morphology pre-dating the transition to sapiens, and brings to mind past claims about incipient Caucasoid morphology in Neandertals. Did aspects of modern Eurasian morphology originate in pre-sapiens archaic Eurasians? Hopefully someone's studying DNA from these crania as we speak. 

Science 03 Mar 2017: Vol. 355, Issue 6328, pp. 969-972 DOI: 10.1126/science.aal2482


So it could be that Denisovans predated Neanderthals, but survived long enough to breed with them, and possibly, with early Homo Sapiens.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 04:10
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

From http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/
Quote

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2017/03/incipient-mongoloids-or-elusive.html" rel="nofollow -
The authors claim that these archaic humans from China show parallels to both modern eastern Eurasians (Mongoloids) and to Neandertals. The relationship with the Neandertals makes them prime candidates for the elusive Denisovans who were a sister group to Neandertals but are morphologically unknown (since all we've got is a genome, teeth, and a pinky). The relationship with Mongoloids suggest an appearance of Mongoloid morphology pre-dating the transition to sapiens, and brings to mind past claims about incipient Caucasoid morphology in Neandertals. Did aspects of modern Eurasian morphology originate in pre-sapiens archaic Eurasians? Hopefully someone's studying DNA from these crania as we speak. 

Science 03 Mar 2017: Vol. 355, Issue 6328, pp. 969-972 DOI: 10.1126/science.aal2482


So it could be that Denisovans predated Neanderthals, but survived long enough to breed with them, and possibly, with early Homo Sapiens.

The Denisovans and their "nuchal gracilization" seem to indicate a population that has less hard work and heavy lifting as opposed to the robust Neanderthal. Just to think of Denisovans and Neanderthals being displaced by CroMagnon begs the question 'who were the Neanderthals and Denisovans displacing?' 
Did Denisovans absorb a more advanced culture that allowed for less hard labor and resulted in the more gracile anatomy? 
Also think of Jakarta Man a gracile not far from the robust Aborigines of the Pleistocence /Holocene. There appears to be a fair comparison to the Neanderthal/Denisovan polarity.  


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 07:32
Well it was ever proved that either Neanderthals or Denisovans replaced a more advanced, hard working people, that could just open the door to how ancient man, in some cases, developed such advanced technologies, which were lost for many centuries.

Or is it all mumbo jumbo and our ancestors really were aliens?


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 01:59
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Well it was ever proved that either Neanderthals or Denisovans replaced a more advanced, hard working people, that could just open the door to how ancient man, in some cases, developed such advanced technologies, which were lost for many centuries.

Or is it all mumbo jumbo and our ancestors really were aliens?
Not to the scientific community as yet but of course before Leaky we knew nothing of Lucy. In the grand expanse of time, it seems more likely than not to me at least, that different models of humanity had been tried and risen or failed depending on... who knows how many factors and geological opportunities.

Thinking of the Australian natives, the mind swoons at the great expanse of time and mastery of man over his surroundings. Clever-doesn't begin to describe these 'Walkers' I tend to see the modern 'Us' as dimmer in the heart/soul and therefore losing true intelligence in modern times. We are too obsessed with 'items.' 

Edgar Cayce, Jane Roberts and others have introduced irresistible "possible pasts" Aliens may be the latest manifestation of a higher power.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 05:43
Vanuatu
Quote Thinking of the Australian natives, the mind swoons at the great expanse of time and mastery of man over his surroundings.

And to think, the last of our Aborigines to contact white people was in the mid 1960's. Many Aborigines still practice tribal traditions of Walkabout, which is what they call their nomadic way of life, living off  bush tucker, avoiding the trappings of white society.



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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 14:42
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu
Quote Thinking of the Australian natives, the mind swoons at the great expanse of time and mastery of man over his surroundings.

And to think, the last of our Aborigines to contact white people was in the mid 1960's. Many Aborigines still practice tribal traditions of Walkabout, which is what they call their nomadic way of life, living off  bush tucker, avoiding the trappings of white society.


I know the UK takes great care with historical and ancient landmarks. How do Australians rate the importance of preserving the culture of Aborigines and Walkabout? 


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 06:24
Vanuatu wrote
Quote I know the UK takes great care with historical and ancient landmarks. How do Australians rate the importance of preserving the culture of Aborigines and Walkabout?

1. That's difficult to answer because white people really don't know about or understand Aboriginal culture. When I was in Primary School (Grades 1-6) we had lessons on Aboriginal Culture, so I and others from my era and school have a pretty basic knowledge and understanding of the culture. As I said, basic. Because of the Aborigines nomadic life, not constructing buildings and not having a written language, the only knowledge of Aboriginal history etc is that which has been passed down by word of mouth. As some Aborigines shed their traditional lifestyle to become, unfortunately, drunken fringe dwellers, their culture is being lost in some cases. In the main, the only visible signs of past Aboriginal habitation are ancient petroglyphs and coastal middens.
Don't forget that the Australian Aborigine is the last Stone Age man still walking the earth. Where petroglyphs and middens are found, steps are usually taken to preserve them, but, because of their often remote nature, it's often not possible to protect them from the mindless idiots in society.

2. Walkabout, is, as the word implies, the act of walking about country, that is, the land which the particular Aboriginal community has roamed since time immemorial, "The Dream Time" which Aborigines call their ancient past, the time of the beginning. Aborigines, in general, have a very close affiliation with "country" which amounts to their ancient home land-notice not The Country but  Country. Some Aborigines on Mainland Australia, on the West Coast and the Far North, still adhere to many tribal traditions, including Walkabout. They simply pack up their meagre belongings and off they go. There is no pattern to their Walkabout and there is no set time for it to finish. They live on Bush Tucker, snakes, lizards, wichetty grubs, small animals, and if they're lucky (read skilful) enough, Kangaroo or Wallaby.

General:

Australian Aborigines never gathered in large groups like the plains Indians, their tribes are usually extended family groups. In some communities, the live by Tribal Law, which is really biblical. If you do something wrong, the tribal elders will dictate your punishment-a broken arm or leg, a spear to the leg or a good bashing. Banishment from the tribe is the last resort, and is often accompanied by a Singing by the Kadaitcha Man (Witch Doctor) which often results in death, regardless of where the offender is at the time. Aborigines who fall foul of White Mans Law and are sent to prison became the subject of a Royal Commission of Inquiry as the number of Aboriginal deaths in custody was causing alarm. Long story short-Aborigines taken away from Country for too long, simply lose the will to live, and die.

Most mainland Aborigines, including the Tiwi Islanders and the Torres Strait Islanders are offered education and are taught English at some stage in their youth, but for quite a number, English remains a second langauge.

In Tasmania, the last Aborigine died nearly 200 years ago. Their language and culture have been lost. There are a number of people who claim Tasmanian Aboriginal ancestry, but they are totally integrated into the white community and are, in the main, impossible to visually identify.

I don't beive that Australians are, generally, racist. We hold our Aboriginal sports men and women in the highest regard. On the large mainland cattle stations-ranches-which are often a million square miles or more, the Aboriginal Jackaroos (Cowboys-but not really) are renowned for their work ethic.




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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 04:25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwrpBgTfsGQ%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwrpBgTfsGQ

Thanks that was helpful. 

This link has the full length feature film "Rabbit Proof Fence" it's outstanding. 
true story of three aboriginal girls who are forcibly taken from their families in 1931 to be trained as domestic servants as part of an official Australian government policy.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 08:28
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwrpBgTfsGQ%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwrpBgTfsGQ

Thanks that was helpful. 

This link has the full length feature film "Rabbit Proof Fence" it's outstanding. 
true story of three aboriginal girls who are forcibly taken from their families in 1931 to be trained as domestic servants as part of an official Australian government policy.

Yes, they form what is now called "The Stolen Generation". But I don't think it's as evil as it may appear.

The situation was that the government of the day recognised that the Aboriginal people were not progressing towards equality with white people in education, employment, health etc.

They rounded up a number of children who were taken to homes where the girls could learn skills as cooking, sewing and as general house maids, while the boys learned how to be farm hands. It worked to Aboriginal advantage to a small degree, but, psychologically, it harmed a generation for life.

Some of the children were relocated to homes nearer to towns where they could receive an education. Again, it was successful only to a small degree, but it did set the scene where a small number of Aboriginal men rose to some of the highest levels of the professions in the country, such as in law and politics.

There have been a few misguided schemes aimed at helping Aboriginal people that have failed. An example quite often quoted is the case where the Federal Government went to Aboriginal Country, and built the tribe houses, simple but suitable for the conditions. Each family was provided with a new Toyota Land Cruiser and a Solar powered public telephone was installed for community use. Six months or so later, welfare workers visited the settlement, to find it deserted. The houses had all been trashed, walls and doors burnt in the front yard, motor vehicles derelict with wheels and tyres either missing or destroyed.

Somewhat alarmed, the welfare workers set out to find the tribe, and did so.They were camped on the banks of a river near a small town, living under humpys and drinking large quantities of alcohol. Young people were sniffing petrol or other accelerants.

That they had abandoned Country was inexplicable, but they still went walkabout when they wanted, but wouldn't live in the white built houses. A typical case of their culture still not accepting parts of the white culture.

Militant Aborigines play these misguided attempts to help them as deliberate harm inflicted by white fellas. Harm inflicted, possibly, but not deliberate.

But not all Aborigines are still nomadic, some have lived in small settlements for generations, or on cattle stations-and they're happy with their lot. Some have been absorbed into the white community with good results-others, not so good.


An example of an Aboriginal Humpy.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 May 2017 at 03:43
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwrpBgTfsGQ%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwrpBgTfsGQ

Thanks that was helpful. 

This link has the full length feature film "Rabbit Proof Fence" it's outstanding. 
true story of three aboriginal girls who are forcibly taken from their families in 1931 to be trained as domestic servants as part of an official Australian government policy.

Yes, they form what is now called "The Stolen Generation". But I don't think it's as evil as it may appear.

The situation was that the government of the day recognised that the Aboriginal people were not progressing towards equality with white people in education, employment, health etc.

They rounded up a number of children who were taken to homes where the girls could learn skills as cooking, sewing and as general house maids, while the boys learned how to be farm hands. It worked to Aboriginal advantage to a small degree, but, psychologically, it harmed a generation for life.

Some of the children were relocated to homes nearer to towns where they could receive an education. Again, it was successful only to a small degree, but it did set the scene where a small number of Aboriginal men rose to some of the highest levels of the professions in the country, such as in law and politics.

There have been a few misguided schemes aimed at helping Aboriginal people that have failed. An example quite often quoted is the case where the Federal Government went to Aboriginal Country, and built the tribe houses, simple but suitable for the conditions. Each family was provided with a new Toyota Land Cruiser and a Solar powered public telephone was installed for community use. Six months or so later, welfare workers visited the settlement, to find it deserted. The houses had all been trashed, walls and doors burnt in the front yard, motor vehicles derelict with wheels and tyres either missing or destroyed.

Somewhat alarmed, the welfare workers set out to find the tribe, and did so.They were camped on the banks of a river near a small town, living under humpys and drinking large quantities of alcohol. Young people were sniffing petrol or other accelerants.

That they had abandoned Country was inexplicable, but they still went walkabout when they wanted, but wouldn't live in the white built houses. A typical case of their culture still not accepting parts of the white culture.

Militant Aborigines play these misguided attempts to help them as deliberate harm inflicted by white fellas. Harm inflicted, possibly, but not deliberate.

But not all Aborigines are still nomadic, some have lived in small settlements for generations, or on cattle stations-and they're happy with their lot. Some have been absorbed into the white community with good results-others, not so good.


An example of an Aboriginal Humpy.

That's roughn' it.  I realize that the mindset of colonial and European powers led them to believe that native peoples needed saving. They needed religion, western clothing and western learning. 

Well intended yes but also a selfish component that allowed the rationale of the inferiority of native people to persist. Aborigines didn't have a modern world view but their intelligence and understanding of the world sustained them in nature and "Rabbit Proof Fence" explains that harmony and superiority over modern man's idea of what natives should be.   


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 01 May 2017 at 04:12
Vanuatu wrote
Quote Well intended yes but also a selfish component that allowed the rationale of the inferiority of native people to persist. Aborigines didn't have a modern world view but their intelligence and understanding of the world sustained them in nature and "Rabbit Proof Fence" explains that harmony and superiority over modern man's idea of what natives should be.  

A point to be noted here is that many Australian Aborigines still do not have a modern world view. Even their nearest genetic cousins, the Papua/New Guineans have progressed much further, even in their most basic cultural aspects.

In many ways, it would probably have been better if the white people had left the Aborigines totally alone, allowed them to fend for themselves as they always had done. But of course the humanitarian interests could not be ignored, they had to have help in health, education and so on. Unfortunately the bad elements of white culture also attached themselves, drinking alcohol, smoking, drug use and domestic violence.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.




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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 01:48
More Updates!!!
Now there is a bit more than speculation about the Out of Africa theory, after ancient skeletal remains were found in southern Europe, bones which indicate a possibility that ancient Homo Sapiens Sapiens could, just could, have originated in the region of the Iberian Peninsula.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 02:47
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

More Updates!!!
Now there is a bit more than speculation about the Out of Africa theory, after ancient skeletal remains were found in southern Europe, bones which indicate a possibility that ancient Homo Sapiens Sapiens could, just could, have originated in the region of the Iberian Peninsula.

Is this what you are referring to? Imagine this beautiful little creature smart enough to throw stones. Hunters? What do we think?

http://www.sciencenews.org/article/european-fossils-may-belong-earliest-known-hominid" rel="nofollow - http://www.sciencenews.org/article/european-fossils-may-belong-earliest-known-hominid

Europe, not Africa, might have spawned the first members of the human evolutionary family around 7 million years ago, researchers say.

Tooth characteristics of a chimpanzee-sized primate that once lived in southeastern Europe suggest that the primate, known as  https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0177127" rel="nofollow - Graecopithecus, may have been a hominid , not an ape as many researchers assume. One tooth in particular, the second lower premolar, is telling. It features two partially fused roots, a trait characteristic of early hominids but not ancient apes, a team led by geoscientist Jochen Fuss of the University of Tübingen in Germany reports May 22 in PLOS ONE.

Scientists suspect the first hominids appeared sometime between 8 million and 6 million years ago. New age estimates for previously discovered fossils position Graecopithecus as  https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0177347" rel="nofollow - potentially the earliest known hominid , the investigators suggest. A Graecopithecus lower jaw, found in Athens with most teeth still in their sockets, dates to around 7.175 million years ago, a group led by Tübingen geoscientist Madelaine Böhme reports May 22 in a separate paper in PLOS ONE. An isolated Graecopithecus tooth from Bulgaria, an upper second premolar, dates to approximately 7.24 million years ago, the scientists say.



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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2017 at 07:58
Quote   Imagine this beautiful little creature smart enough to throw stones.

I presume that you are referring to yourself. I'm still in pain over the stones you threw at me on the T***p thread.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 02:24
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote   Imagine this beautiful little creature smart enough to throw stones.

I presume that you are referring to yourself. I'm still in pain over the stones you threw at me on the T***p thread.

A smart hominid wouldn't throw stones at you, maybe just a poke with a stick.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 02:35
It was a bloody BIG stick.LOL

Do you remember when the popular cartoon depiction of a cave man was a hairy bloke with a big wooden club over his shoulder, dragging his semi-concious new bride by the hair to their new home?

What went wrong? Why did we change?LOL


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 02:14
Somebody sold us a "new and improved" stick, and it went down hill from there.

Civilization, that is where it went wrong, women civilized men, it is all their "fault."
If it wasn't for women, men would still be naked, watching the fire, and eating week old doritos
caught in our beards.  If it wasn't for women, the sheep would be nervous. :P

As one cave man said to the other, "I don't get it, everything is natural, all we eat is organic, and we only live until we are 30"



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