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South American Megaliths

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Category: REGIONAL HISTORY
Forum Name: Americas
Forum Description: The Americas: History from pre-Colombian times to the present
URL: http://www.worldhistoria.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=129509
Printed Date: 22 Jan 2020 at 06:14
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Topic: South American Megaliths
Posted By: toyomotor
Subject: South American Megaliths
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2017 at 18:53
For some years I've been interested in the technical skills employed in the construction of ancient South American cities.

The buildings, including the ziggurat style temples, roadways and aquaducts were built with such skill, that the means by which they were constructed defies modern belief.

The precision used in the cutting of huge blocks of stone, the means by which they were transported and how they were lifted into place still have not been satisfactorily explained by modern science.

That the North Americans never developed these skills is still not explained, when one considers that, in the main, they all arrived in the Americas roughly about the same time. Nor is it explained by the fact that there were probably slightly later arrivals by sea.

To date there is no evidence of visiting Egyptians or middle eastern builders, despite the fact that the temples were very similar to the ziggurats of Mesopotamia.

The buildings, roadways and waterways are only equalled by such civilisations as the Egyptians. Ancient Europe did not have these skills for centuries later.

See World Mysteries at http://s8int.com/phile/page54.html

Does anyone on this forum have any idea where the ideas for their construction came from?




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)



Replies:
Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 11:21
http://www.ancient.eu/Inca_Architecture/" rel="nofollow - http://www.ancient.eu/Inca_Architecture/

Hi, have a look at this link. It's about the Inca and their building methods.

Just an aside- you probably have heard of the famous Egyptologist  Zahi Hawass. He had a series on History Channel, (I think HC) about the building of the pyramids. He has students with him, one of whom believed that aliens built the Pyramids. So Hawass spends nearly a day with these student traveling into the deepest parts of the Great Pyramid at Giza. There he shows them ancient art work depicting the Egyptians using methods very similar to the Inca link. 

He says "here they are cutting the rock, here they are moving the rock, here they are using sand to smooth the rock etc. Then Hawass ( looking so pleased with himself) says to the alien enthusiast "so who built the pyramids?" - "Um, A-Aliens?" Angry priceless.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 11:40
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

http://www.ancient.eu/Inca_Architecture/" rel="nofollow - http://www.ancient.eu/Inca_Architecture/

Hi, have a look at this link. It's about the Inca and their building methods.

Just an aside- you probably have heard of the famous Egyptologist  Zahi Hawass. He had a series on History Channel, (I think HC) about the building of the pyramids. He has students with him, one of whom believed that aliens built the Pyramids. So Hawass spends nearly a day with these student traveling into the deepest parts of the Great Pyramid at Giza. There he shows them ancient art work depicting the Egyptians using methods very similar to the Inca link. 

He says "here they are cutting the rock, here they are moving the rock, here they are using sand to smooth the rock etc. Then Hawass ( looking so pleased with himself) says to the alien enthusiast "so who built the pyramids?" - "Um, A-Aliens?" Angry priceless.

Thanks for that. Zahi HAWASS is, I think, the Head of the Egyptian Antiquities Authority. I've seen some of his programs.

What I was hoping for was some hint as to where the Incas and other South Americans got the ideas for their architecture and civil engineering skills. In many ways like the Egyptians and other Middle Easterners, so radically different from the North Americans, or for that matter, the rest of the world.

Were there visitors from other civilisations who gave them the ideas?

Is it just possible that inter planetary assistance was provided?

There are still many ancient inventions which defy explanation, given the materials available at the time, and what scientists claim was the level of knowledge by ancient man.

My thirst for knowledge is boundless. Help


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 12:33
Wish someone could answer definitively. I do think hominids would have observed insects, (J.Diamond) after all they ate them must have also learned their habits. Insects do amazing work.

I have thought about the alien explanation and if that's the case and wormholes work both ways-maybe we humans are visiting our own past. Is time linear or cyclical? 

On the Egyptians, where you see the headdress that depicts the cobra coming through the top of the forehead (crown) that is the symbol for wisdom through a process called kundalini.  A kind of enlightenment and creative dynamite. 

Maybe there's a psychic link to a parallel universe that allows an information exchange. The markings at Gobekli Tepe , Australia , Lascaux and so many other sites suggest an intervention possibly an interior revelation that becomes exterior as with Plato's cave dweller. The truth was there, only veiled.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2017 at 23:14
I think we can discount alien visitation in preference to ordinary human ingenuity.

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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 00:32
Hi caldrail. Strange things exist right here on earth. Why discount aliens? Did you hear the news this past week? Small star showing the pull of  7 planets 40 light years away. I don't discount the visitor possibility. 

http://www.vox.com/2017/2/22/14698030/nasa-seven-exoplanet-discovery-trappist-1" rel="nofollow - http://www.vox.com/2017/2/22/14698030/nasa-seven-exoplanet-discovery-trappist-1


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 00:46
toyomotor, the link has many things I've seen before but the reptile and Yeti figures are new to me, exquisite. It's the Nazca lines and images and the stone age ley lines (Kent to Cornwall- so many others)
that make me hold out before saying no alien influence.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2017 at 09:41
Vanuatu:

I'm not brave enough to deny the possibility of alien visitation, or to argue whether time is linear or cyclical.

What I do know is that discoveries of ancient artifacts, not only buildings and cities beggar belief when considering what modern scientists say was posible in ancient times.

The Antikythera Machine, being touted as the first computer, has not been explained-it's construction that is. How did a machine as complicated as this exist, and then the knowledge disappears for a couple of thousand years? And it's not the only case.

I mention the South American Megaliths, which, according to all reasonable modern thought, should not have existed in those times, but they did, but by whose design.

I have difficulty accepting that some of the ancient inventions were simply the product of human ingenuity. If they were, fine, but how and why did the knowledge simply die and remain dormant for several thousand years?

Skull surgery, trepaning, was used in ancient times to alleviate pain. The reasons may not have been realistic to us, but the methodology existed, and then died out for quite some time. Why?

I don't believe that things such as the Nacza Lines were made by humans as religious symbols. They can't be seen form earth, only about a kilometre or more above. Who was up there to see them?

And so it goes on. The Megaliths are only a small part, imho, of the hundreds, or more, unexplained constructions and inventions from ancient times.

caldrail: But me no buts. If you can, give me some explanations of the things we've been discussing. Did human ingenuity rise and then fall? If so, how, why?





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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 06:58
I had a friend in college that did his anthropology/sociology thesis on UFO cults, he concluded that there was some deep, vaguely racist feelings that motivated people to say, 'this "primitive" people could not have possibly done 'x' therefore, it must have done by space aliens or inter dimensional travelers.'  I tend to agree on that with Caldrail, that we under-estimate human ingenuity.  Each era has its Sistine Chapel/Lascaux/great pyramids/Notre Dame, something amazing that humans did, that we might be able to imitate, but that we would not be able do from scratch.  We tend not to doubt the modern or western versions of these great projects, but we do sometimes doubt the ancient or non-western ones.  Do they really merit consideration as the interference of non-human cultures?  Or do we just have hang ups about admitting that, say, Incans had great abilities in stonework and architecture?

The dog is snoring, it is hilarious:)  life is good.

Now don't get me wrong, UFOs could have reasons for contacting "primitive" people, that would not be applicable to modern people.  And as far as stories of UFOs being responsible for the pyramid or Nazca lines or British chalk figures, they are a lot of fun and help us focus our amazement at such things.  Earlier civilizations had the same thing when they said that giants did the cyclopeian walls of Mycenae or Tiryns or Apollo and Poseidon did the walls of Troy.  So the impetus to ascribe great past feats to a supernatural force, is present in antiquity as well as in Von Daniken.  I just think that the natives should get credit, or the native gods as the case might be.  We should also realize that just because we are more technologically sophisticated than "primitives" are doesn't mean that they did not have (double negative) techniques, developed over centuries, that we are still not able to imitate (or even recognize).  If all you had was flint, then you got pretty sophisticated at napping flint for tools over the ages.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 09:23
Nevertheless, there has been no rational reason given for how/why the meticulous ancient crafts were;

a. Confined to certain regions; and

b. Why those skills "disappeared" for centuries.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 12:05
I don't know, perhaps thousands or tens of thousands of year of tradition and custom teaching skills from father to son.  I mean the reason why there are such magnificent Greek temples is because they built a lot of them, it was culturally important to do it right, and they developed and refined the skills over generations.

And then "the waters changed," and no longer those kinds of Greek temples were being built.  How many trades have been lost when technology did away with buggies, or conastoga wagons?  How many cathedrals were built during the Middle Ages?  Do you think that we could build such cathedrals today, at the same rate?  We couldn't do it, even with "modern technology."


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 13:58

Maya self destructed and were finished off by weather and deforestation. 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-did-the-mayan-civilization-collapse-a-new-study-points-to-deforestation-and-climate-change-30863026/" rel="nofollow - http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-did-the-mayan-civilization-collapse-a-new-study-points-to-deforestation-and-climate-change-30863026/

Scholars and laypeople have proposed countless theories accounting for the collapse, ranging from the plausible (overhunting, foreign invasion, peasant revolt) to the absurd (alien invasion, supernatural forces). In his 2005 book  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse:_How_Societies_Choose_to_Fail_or_Succeed" rel="nofollow -







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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2017 at 14:43
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Maya self destructed and were finished off by weather and deforestation. 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-did-the-mayan-civilization-collapse-a-new-study-points-to-deforestation-and-climate-change-30863026/" rel="nofollow - http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-did-the-mayan-civilization-collapse-a-new-study-points-to-deforestation-and-climate-change-30863026/

Scholars and laypeople have proposed countless theories accounting for the collapse, ranging from the plausible (overhunting, foreign invasion, peasant revolt) to the absurd (alien invasion, supernatural forces). In his 2005 book  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse:_How_Societies_Choose_to_Fail_or_Succeed" rel="nofollow -


My question still is why the didn't skills survive and get passed on?

Why didn't the North Americans ever develop such skills?

Did the knowledge and skills originate in the South Americas, or were they imported?

If they were imported (i.e. international travellers), by whom and when?

The architecture and civil engineering skills needed to built the South American cities have only been seen in Egypt, Rome and Mesopotamia is the same or similar era. These people had canals and cities while Europeans still ived in caves. Why?

I suppose similar questions could be asked in relation to the ancient Britons, why didn't they learn from the Roman occupation and continue building roads and public facilities?




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2017 at 10:10
By the time Lindisfarne happened the Britons didn't remember the Romans unless they were part of the religious or royal crowd. 

These people were awesome. 80% of Native Americans have the unique mix of east Asian and west Asian markers, no other people have theses two markers.

They either came over the Atlantic or Pacific. The Pacific crossings, when you think of what it means is just overwhelming. The catamaran is still considered to be one the best navigational crafts ever invented. There are a few South Pacific mariners who can navigate the ocean without maps or instruments by using the stars.  It's a spark for humanity like Egypt. 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2017 at 18:51
Vanuatu wrote 
Quote By the time Lindisfarne happened the Britons didn't remember the Romans unless they were part of the religious or royal crowd.

Although we're deviating from the OP, I can't understand that.

The Romans left very advanced reminders of their occupation-

1. Roads/highways;
2.Aquaducts;
3.Bath houses and
4. Other buildings far more advanced than those of the Britons.

Granted the Viking raids on Lindisfarne and other British towns were some centuries later, about five hundred years, the Roman structures existed through the centuries. So why wasn't the architecture and technology copied and even improved upon?




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 09 Mar 2017 at 22:02
If the Church runs everything they will commission what work is to be done. Average people had stories about Giants. Even have an entry in the Anglo Saxon Chronicle that talks about exhuming the Giant King Arthur.

Educated people knew better but who besides the King and the Church had any power over resources?

Also the land has a number of kingdoms/kings the only uniting force is the Church. People knew what god wanted them to know.Wink


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2017 at 01:36
There were estimated 200,000 earth mounds and structures from the woodland culture.The mounds mostly destroyed but especially in Ohio, Virginia, Georgia and Minnesota there are examples preserved.

And Giants!
http://www.sott.net/article/256712-A-giant-mystery-18-strange-giant-skeletons-found-in-Wisconsin-Sons-of-god-Men-of-renown" rel="nofollow - http://www.sott.net/article/256712-A-giant-mystery-18-strange-giant-skeletons-found-in-Wisconsin-Sons-of-god-Men-of-renown

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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2017 at 12:01
The Mayans are still there, their society collapsed and they abandoned the cities and went back to the land.  It is called, "unsustainability."  A society overextends itself, and then dies back.  Who cares about building giant statues or pyramids, when you are just worried about getting food or clean water?  It could be that society was top-heavy, but I don't know that.  Too many chiefs (or priests) and not enough Indians, so to speak.  But, you know, Elk will do the same thing, eat up all the forage in the valley, until disease and starvation kill them off.  Adding wolves can actually help the Elk and make thing sustainable for the Elk and other animals.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2017 at 14:20
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The Mayans are still there, their society collapsed and they abandoned the cities and went back to the land.  It is called, "unsustainability."  A society overextends itself, and then dies back.  Who cares about building giant statues or pyramids, when you are just worried about getting food or clean water?  It could be that society was top-heavy, but I don't know that.  Too many chiefs (or priests) and not enough Indians, so to speak.  But, you know, Elk will do the same thing, eat up all the forage in the valley, until disease and starvation kill them off.  Adding wolves can actually help the Elk and make thing sustainable for the Elk and other animals.

While what you say may be correct, in context, there is no proof, afik, of why the South American civilisations colllapsed and went bush.

This is what I'm asking, why?

Are there any authorative writings to prove the point?




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2017 at 22:28
The article cites these causes for the Mayan collapse. It's suggested that as the drought, famine and political anxiety peaked there would have been more human sacrifice and starving people just taking off, abandoning the whole mess. 

http://www.buriedmirror.com/history/great-collapse.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.buriedmirror.com/history/great-collapse.htm

Warfare

Overpopulation and Environmental Damage

Climate Change

Political Vulnerabilities: Resistance and Anomie



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 10 Mar 2017 at 22:54
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu wrote  [quote]By the time Lindisfarne happened the Britons didn't remember the Romans unless they were part of the religious or royal crowd.

Although we're deviating from the OP, I can't understand that.

The Romans left very advanced reminders of their occupation-

1. Roads/highways;
2.Aquaducts;
3.Bath houses and
4. Other buildings far more advanced than those of the Britons.

Granted the Viking raids on Lindisfarne and other British towns were some centuries later, about five hundred years, the Roman structures existed through the centuries. So why wasn't the architecture and technology copied and even improved upon?

The Anglo-Saxons were invading when Rome departed, Emperor Honorius needed troops to attack barbarian hordes elsewhere in the empire.
Lots of Saxons settled on the farms and used the stones from Roman buildings to build houses. Nothing was repaired and it crumbled and towns were rebuilt. There are some Roman sites left in Briton.
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/RomanSites/" rel="nofollow - http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/RomanSites/




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2017 at 00:26
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

The article cites these causes for the Mayan collapse. It's suggested that as the drought, famine and political anxiety peaked there would have been more human sacrifice and starving people just taking off, abandoning the whole mess. 

http://www.buriedmirror.com/history/great-collapse.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.buriedmirror.com/history/great-collapse.htm

Warfare

Overpopulation and Environmental Damage

Climate Change

Political Vulnerabilities: Resistance and Anomie


Right, yep, OK.

But why didn't the knowledge remain and spread. Surely all of the technical people, the architects, road and acquaduct designers, didn't die without their knowledge being passed on.

While the cities etc were under construction, there would have been understudies to the experts, foremen and leading hands, all of who would have some knowledge worthy of being imparted.

Understand that I'm not attacking you, just posing the questions, to which, so far I haven't received any answers.

It simply doesn't make sense to me that the knowledge didn't spread-unless of course there was some cataclysmic event which wiped them off the face of the earth in one swift blow-and, afik, there's no evidence of that.

(ALERT) I have the same questions about the Romans in Europe and the Egyptians in Africa, although I understand that fairly recently signs of large African towns have been located in mid-Africa as well as in Timbuktu).



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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2017 at 00:36
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


Quote The Anglo-Saxons were invading when Rome departed, Emperor Honorius needed troops to attack barbarian hordes elsewhere in the empire.
Lots of Saxons settled on the farms and used the stones from Roman buildings to build houses. Nothing was repaired and it crumbled and towns were rebuilt. There are some Roman sites left in Briton.
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/RomanSites/" rel="nofollow - http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/RomanSites/



Precisely my point, [quote]"There are some Roman sites left in Briton.

There were intelligent, educated men in England when the Romans left. Surely they would have had some idea of how to preserve the Roman buildings etc. and to copy them. But they didn't. Why?

Instead, they seemed to have retreated to the time before the Romans, ignoring all of the technology, architecture and civil works created by the Romans. Why?

Again vanuatu, I'm not having a go at you or Franciscosan, but I'm not getting answers. Nor can I find any answers in the research that I have been able to do. Please bear in mind that I live in a state with a population that has just reached 500,00, and research materials are not that easy to come by, with the exception of the Internet which we all know is not always accurate.

Perhaps you could mosey on down to the Library of Congress and have a wee peek? LOL




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2017 at 11:11
Sorry Toyomotor, "why?" is not really a useful question.  "Why did the chicken cross the road?"  I am not sure what you are really looking for.  We could talk about roads, byways and throughways, chicken psychology and motivation, the chicken-as-such (essence of chickens), our subjective experience, our objective experience, the chicken's objective/subjective experience, God, so forth, and of course, humor.

Let me give you a simple definition and then show how it proliferates:
"Man is a rational animal."  Aristotle.
a common definition implicit in a lot of our thinking, with its priority on reason.
Is this true?
Well, if your going to ask whether man is a rational animal, you have to know what:
1) rational means.
2) animal means.
Do you see the problem? one question leads to two, which leads to ???
So you ask why, and we give you replies which you are not satisfied with, we don't know the criteria under which you _would_ be satisfied.  But really we wouldn't know the criteria under which any question would satisfy.  Except whether you are satisfied or not.  With "how" the question is "can it be replicated?"  With "what" the question points to something and basically says, "that."  "Why?" is kind of an open ended question which has no set criteria for its satisfaction.
So you ask, "why do civilizations collapse?"  Well, you are presupposing that you know what a civilization is, which you know 'about' a civilization (ours/yours), but frankly 'civilization' is too big of a thing to really understand, for anyone.  So first of all, answer me what is a civilization? and then answer me what collapse is.  However, let me warn you that what I need is a definition that is both necessary and sufficient.  Secondly, what is collapse, with the same qualifications, necessary and sufficient.  If I can come up with an example of civilization (including hypothetical examples) that doesn't fit the definition, then it is not sufficient.
But to answer your question.  I will give you two answers, sunspots, and God.  Of course with both answers I am not _explaining_ anything, but then again I think that why is an emotional utterance, that ultimately defies answering anything 'useful.'  One can always ask, "why?' but one never gets a conclusive answer.  I am not sure what else you expect, and because I don't know what you mean, I don't know how to answer, (and I am not sure anyone else would know either.) 


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2017 at 11:32
I thought my questions were too basic.

1. Why? Is there some recorded reason why the technology apparently died out?
If not, OK then, it will continue to be one lifes great mysteries.

2. Why? Why was the architecture and sophisticated civil engineering  as in the South Americas, Egypt Rome etc, not spread to other countries such as North America and Europe? Is there a good reason that this didn't happen?
What is that reason?
If there is no recorded reason, see 1. above.

3. Why? Are there recorded reasons why the Britons and Saxons didn't take up the Roman way of doing things over a period of centuries?
Again, if not, see 1. above.

4. Civilisations-as this is a history forum, I would have thought that the accepted definitions of a civilisation would be agreed upon. If, franciscosan, you have a definition of civilisations, other than that generally accepted, perhaps we should discuss that in another post.

IF, when the dust settles it eventuates that there are no recorded answers or even hints as to why the things I've mentioned did or didn't happen, then, OK, see 1. above.

I'm not really into the philosophy of words, but, at the end of the day, I'm looking for answers. And if those answers are simply not there, as Professor Julius Sumner Miller asked,"why is it so?"  Confused

I taught my children that "because" is not an answer.




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2017 at 14:03
As a rule of thumb, all civilizations have certain basic technologies, and yet the Incans did not have the wheel (except on children's toys).  So if you come up with a definition of civilization, and if someone comes up with a counterexample of some 'society' that does not match the definition, then the definition is incomplete.  So if one defines as civilization something that has, say, writing, and yet one finds a "civilization," say Catal Huyuk or Troy, that didn't have writing, then that definition is inadequate.

It is like defining anything complex, such as religion.  Is religion "belief in God?"  Well, Hinduism believes in a plurality, Buddhism doesn't necessarily believe in deities, and Judaism is more about practice and considers belief as not that important, which is why you can have people who are "culturally" Jewish, but "religiously" atheist.  
Why would hunter gatherers need to know how to build roads and permanent structures?  You seem to be assuming why they wouldn't do it?  Well, why would they?  Why did the aborigines remain hunter gatherers?  Well, probably because it worked for them.  If population density got too high for the carrying capacity of the lands, then either you have collapse or transition to pastoral, or agriculture.  There may be factors preventing that transition, and so you might just hit a wall.  On the flip side, your population density might reach a critical mass, that with other factors, creates specialization.

But there are examples of technology that they could make in the 1800s, that we don't know how to make today.  Look up British Museum electrotypes, used to make exact replicas of ancient coins and other artifacts,  Exact to the molecular level.  Look at Nova on the recreation of an Egyptian chariot.  We can take them apart, and recreate one, _after_ having an example and all our modern technology to reproduce it.  And yet _they_ did not have an example, but put one together in the first place.  Or look at the Manhattan project which created the atom bomb.  Everybody else after that 1) knew it could be done, 2) could get many of the secrets by spying, or "researching" the field of physics or other literature.  the tendency is that one group comes up with an original invention (albeit, usually by putting together diverse areas of knowledge in a novel way), and everybody copies it.

There is an interesting question, if societies get to a certain complexity, and density is a kind of complexity, it either has to become more sophisticated, or collapse.  What happens if a society looses complexity? looses density?  Especially in the sense of not enough workers supporting nonworkers.  Modern technology has somewhat worked as a substitute for labor (robotization).  But can that go on forever?  We don't know, but I suspect we or our descendants will find out.

A object in motion tends to stay in motion, unless resisted by another force.  (or something like that).
But friction is a force that resists the object in motion.  "Friction" is a technical term from Clausewitz, for what complicates any endeavor or effort.  For example, you are setting out on a car trip, but before you can leave the youngest has to go to the bathroom.  And then the wife thinks she might have left the stove on, and needs to go back.  And then you hit traffic, and a rainstorm, flat tire, all these things are possible sources of friction that interfere with your trip.  Military operations go through the same thing, and so do societies, and if things really go wrong, you don't get to grandma's for her birthday.  Or you don't pass on what, for your society, is the high tech secrets of your civilization.  But you seem to assume that these secrets are easy to pass along, _we_ can figure out how to make such joined walls as the Incans, but probably only as a result of a lot of effort, taking a few a part, and maybe some luck.  The last of which may or may not happen in our time frame.  But look at Egyptian war chariots, which are anything but simple.




Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 16:30
WOW!!!

What have I done? I've created a monster.

But, why?



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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 17:23
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


Quote The Anglo-Saxons were invading when Rome departed, Emperor Honorius needed troops to attack barbarian hordes elsewhere in the empire.
Lots of Saxons settled on the farms and used the stones from Roman buildings to build houses. Nothing was repaired and it crumbled and towns were rebuilt. There are some Roman sites left in Briton.
http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/RomanSites/" rel="nofollow - http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryMagazine/DestinationsUK/RomanSites/



Precisely my point, [quote]"There are some Roman sites left in Briton.

There were intelligent, educated men in England when the Romans left. Surely they would have had some idea of how to preserve the Roman buildings etc. and to copy them. But they didn't. Why?

Instead, they seemed to have retreated to the time before the Romans, ignoring all of the technology, architecture and civil works created by the Romans. Why?

Again vanuatu, I'm not having a go at you or Franciscosan, but I'm not getting answers. Nor can I find any answers in the research that I have been able to do. Please bear in mind that I live in a state with a population that has just reached 500,00, and research materials are not that easy to come by, with the exception of the Internet which we all know is not always accurate.

Perhaps you could mosey on down to the Library of Congress and have a wee peek? LOL



In the 90 years after the Romans left Briton there were so many attacks and invasions. A huge number of Britons are killed and the Jutes, Picts, Saxons and eventually Danes absorb the Britons.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 21:08
Vanuatu wrote
Quote In the 90 years after the Romans left Briton there were so many attacks and invasions. A huge number of Britons are killed and the Jutes, Picts, Saxons and eventually Danes absorb the Britons.

Yes, we were taught early English history when I was in Primary School (years 1-6). We learned all about the Angles, Saxon and the Jutes who invaded England, and then of course the Normans.

But the Normans had experienced Roman occupation, and all of the English scholars, artisans etc weren't killed off. So my question remains, why?

Our friend franciscosan has provided, among some extensive verbage, some explanation, but still doesn't provide the explanation.

As I've written before, if there are no explanations why architecture, civil engineering etc provided by the Romans, wasn't taken up and modernised over the centuries, OK, let's have some links to expert opinions who say that..

Bear in mind that, although the Romans had bath houses and health spas, in the middle and lower English socio-economic levels, an inside toilet was not common in every house, nor were bathrooms, until years after WW2.

These things have exercised my mind for many years.




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2017 at 03:15
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 

But the Normans had experienced Roman occupation, and all of the English scholars, artisans etc weren't killed off. So my question remains, why?

Our friend franciscosan has provided, among some extensive verbage, some explanation, but still doesn't provide the explanation.

As I've written before, if there are no explanations why architecture, civil engineering etc provided by the Romans, wasn't taken up and modernised over the centuries, OK, let's have some links to expert opinions who say that..

Bear in mind that, although the Romans had bath houses and health spas, in the middle and lower English socio-economic levels, an inside toilet was not common in every house, nor were bathrooms, until years after WW2.

These things have exercised my mind for many years.



Certainly the cathedrals are evidence that Britons used a creative palette and specialized skills. Masons, sculptors all manner of artisans, heavy laborers. Castles, Abbeys, Priories..ruins dating (some lost and forgotten) to 1160- as you say the Normans and William C. Good article-

http://In%201528%20Simon%20Fish%20published%20A%20Supplication%20for%20the%20Beggars.%20He%20argued%20that%20the%20clergy%20should%20spend%20their%20money%20in%20the%20relief%20of%20the%20poor%20and%20not%20amass%20it%20for%20monks%20to%20pray%20for%20souls.%20%2813%29%20Fish%20claimed%20that%20monks%20were%20"ravenous%20wolves"%20who%20had%20"debauched%20100,000%20women".%20He%20added%20that%20the%20monks%20were%20"the%20great%20scab"%20that%20would%20not%20allow%20the%20Bible%20to%20be%20published%20in%20"your%20mother%20tongue".%20%2814%29%20%20George%20M.%20Trevelyan%20has%20argued%20that%20this%20work%20had%20an%20impact%20on%20the%20thinking%20of%20Henry%20VIII:%20"The%20conclusion%20reached%20by%20the%20pamphleteer%20%28Simon%20Fish%29%20is%20that%20the%20clergy,%20especially%20the%20monks%20and%20friars,%20should%20be%20deprived%20of%20their%20wealth%20for%20the%20benefit%20of%20the%20King%20and%20Kingdom,%20and%20made%20to%20work%20like%20other%20men;%20let%20them%20also%20be%20allowed%20to%20marry%20and%20so%20be%20induced%20to%20leave%20other%20peoples%20wives%20alone.%20Such%20crude%20appeals%20to%20lay%20cupidity,%20and%20such%20veritable%20coarse%20anger%20at%20real%20abuses%20uncorrected%20down%20the%20centuries,%20had%20been%20generally%20prevalent%20in%20London%20under%20Wolseys%20regime,%20and%20at%20his%20fall%20such%20talk%20became%20equally%20fashionable%20at%20Court."%20%2815%29" rel="nofollow - http://In 1528 Simon Fish published A Supplication for the Beggars. He argued that the clergy should spend their money in the relief of the poor and not amass it for monks to pray for souls. (13) Fish claimed that monks were "ravenous wolves" who had "debauched 100,000 women". He added that the monks were "the great scab" that would not allow the Bible to be published in "your mother tongue". (14) George M. Trevelyan has argued that this work had an impact on the thinking of Henry VIII: "The conclusion reached by the pamphleteer (Simon Fish) is that the clergy, especially the monks and friars, should be deprived of their wealth for the benefit of the King and Kingdom, and made to work like other men; let them also be allowed to marry and so be induced to leave other people's wives alone. Such crude appeals to lay cupidity, and such veritable coarse anger at real abuses uncorrected down the centuries, had been generally prevalent in London under Wolsey's regime, and at his fall such talk became equally fashionable at Court." (15)

The architecture of cathedrals is based on the old  http://quatr.us/romans/architecture/basilicas.htm" rel="nofollow - Roman basilica . The earliest Christian churches were a lot like Roman basilicas. But the biggest cathedrals are bigger and higher than the biggest Roman basilicas. Early medieval architects built cathedrals in the  http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/romanesque.htm" rel="nofollow - Romanesque style , and then later (beginning about  http://quatr.us/timelines/1100ad.htm" rel="nofollow - 1100 AD ) they built cathedrals in the  http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/gothic.htm" rel="nofollow - Gothic style . You'll find some examples of Romanesque and Gothic cathedrals on the  http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/romanesque.htm" rel="nofollow - Romanesque  and  http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/gothic.htm" rel="nofollow - Gothic  pages.
http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/cathedral.htm" rel="nofollow - http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/cathedral.htm


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2017 at 03:46
Vanuatu

Yes, but isn't it a pity that the architecture was confined to royalty, the Church and the upper classes.

Basic sanitation, as practised by the Romans may have prevented thousands of deaths over the years, caused, basically, by lack of sanitation procedures,such as personal hygeine, using the public streets as sewers and so on.

France, for example, was far ahead of England in this regard, but the poms thought thatby regular bathing, their immune systems would shut down-and no-one attempted to convice them otherwise appparently.

And as for Cathedrals, habitats of rogues and centres of scandal, IMHO.




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 10:38
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

Yes, but isn't it a pity that the architecture was confined to royalty, the Church and the upper classes.

Basic sanitation, as practised by the Romans may have prevented thousands of deaths over the years, caused, basically, by lack of sanitation procedures,such as personal hygeine, using the public streets as sewers and so on.

France, for example, was far ahead of England in this regard, but the poms thought thatby regular bathing, their immune systems would shut down-and no-one attempted to convice them otherwise appparently.

And as for Cathedrals, habitats of rogues and centres of scandal, IMHO.



Imagine the peasant living on the Moors in mud and thatch houses. Not a spot of daylight and a smokey hearth killing you as much as it keeps you alive. Bandits come for you, nothing to be done about it, just suffer and suffer more. 
The Britons knew that water could carry disease, they didn't understand it all obviously but they tried to keep their clothes clean and scented themselves with spices. It was undesirable to be unclean, only unavoidable for common people. 
It's not so different from today is it? That the wealth of the world moves along as though the suffering of most the worlds people does not exist.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 11:19
An ancient Greek wise man (maybe Epimenides?) called members of the same household, "sharers of smoke."  Hillary Clinton was in many ways shut out of state business by an active Obama White House, but one thing she did (which is not really a Secretary of State thing) is oversee the distribution of smokeless cooking stoves to 3rd world nations, because of the respiratory problems caused to women, by cooking.  Of course, George W Bush made AIDS in Africa a big issue, and treated it as a medical issue.  You don't very much hear fundamentalists going on about AIDS as a curse against the gays anymore.  CDC and other world disease agencies were on top of of Ebola fairly quickly.  George W Bush increased funding for the CDC in particular, and science (NASA) in general during his tenure.  Unlike some people.  I don't know what President Obama's record on science was, except that we have to rely on the Russians to get to the space station.  President Clinton cut things, and President George W Bush, built them back.  One should give credit where credit is due.
But I think that it is different today, than it used to be.  At one time, the first world could invade and impose order upon a region.  Can't do that today, nor would we want to.  People around the world these days are digesting news and stories from everywhere else.  They are saying, "why can we not have that."  But, at the same time there may be a cost for that, something they don't want to, or can't give up.  


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 11:32
franciscosan

But we've raced away from the OP!!

To recap, I mentioned the South American megaliths, and all associated civil engineering works as examples of the skills and knowledge which were held at the time, but were not progressed and which did not spread to other parts of South America, let alone to North America. Why?

I mentioned the Roman works in England, and the fact that when the Romans left, the technology apparently went with them. Why?

The great civil engineering accomplshments of the Mesopotamian region did not spread across northern Asia and Eastern Europe. Why?

And, in frustration I asked if there were no reasonable explanations why these technologies weren't taken up across the Americas, the UK and Europe, why?

References to space technology don't address the questions asked.




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 00:16
Quote Hi caldrail. Strange things exist right here on earth. Why discount aliens? Did you hear the news this past week? Small star showing the pull of 7 planets 40 light years away. I don't discount the visitor possibility.

Sorry for the late reply.

Yes, strange things occur, but that's because a reasonable explanation is lacking, so people insert their favourite alternative - that behaviour is source of religion in human society. I attended a lecture not so long ago by a team of paranormal investigators and they described the situation as only 5% of their cases showed any strangeness. For instance, a public house complained of ghosts on their cellar. On investigation, it transpired that passing vehicles on the road outside were generating air pressure inequalities that caused the bumps in the night. The connection wasn't obvious at first, but ultimately explainable.

I was once on a course with a lad from a farming family. He told me one night the Police called at their farm and told them they'd received reports of strange activity up on the hill. The Police seemed unwilling to investigate, so the young lad got into a tractor and trundled up the farm track toward the hill in middle of the windy night. He too saw flashes of light and got very worried about what he might find. It turned out to be a hi-vis vest on a scarecrow, fluttering in the wind and reflecting moonlight or headlamps.

As attractive as the idea of alien visitation is, there is not a shred of credible evidence for it anywhere. Almost all the depictions of ancient cultures said to show aliens or their technology is simply a misinterpretation, placing modern perspective on something that has a different or completely lost meaning. The Maya Tree Of Life, for instance, a symbolic image, has been promoted by Daniken and similar writers as some form of rocket bike - never mind the rider has zero protection, environmental support, or even straps to hold him on. Never mind that not the slightest inkling of such technology has ever come to light in that region.

One theory has the Maya as survivors of an alien space crash, hence their long term calendar, waiting for a rescue mission which - gasp - was due to arrive in December 2012. They seem to stopped for lunch on the way. But of course the Maya appear to be perfectly human, no links with alien societies, and the idea of their calendar was linked to their religion as much as astronomy.

As it happens, I don't discount the idea of alien visitation - if it's actually possible to travel within a reasonable timescale between star systems, then we have to assume that somebody might have already succeeded, but until we find actual evidence of that - it remains speculation, and when that speculation is used both to explain something mundane in our observable world or worse still, to promote someone's individual beliefs and agenda - sorry - that's a NO.

Incidentially you might like to know that a theory exists as to why we haven't found any signals from alien civilisations. This idea emerged in the seventies and is largely forgotten, but imagine a paranoid race that builds a weapon to destroy potential rivals. A machine capable of destroying the eco-system of a planet - not entirely impossible even with our own level of technology. SO these things are wandering around out there homing in on signals from newly emerged civilisations to destroy them. And we've been broadcasting electromagnetic signals for something a bit longer than a century, which means if one of those machines happens to be passing within a hundred light years or so... Maybe you should invest in a nuke shelter too? :D

-------------
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 05:03
The killing machines galactically on the loose are called Berserkers, an area of science fiction popularized by Fred Saberhagen.  Star Trek's 'the Planet Killer' is an example of these.  Of course, it could be that after a certain level of technology, they use fiber optics and point to point communications lasers.

I think there is a little bit of disparagement of "primitive" cultures when people can't imagine them creating such monuments as the Mayan pyramids, it is not exactly the same as racism, but is akin to it.
It "has" to be aliens, because how could such "primitives" do such things?  _We_ "obviously" could do such things, _if_ we wanted to, but we don't....  Personally, I don't think we could, or at least not without reverse engineering what they did.  But it matches our ego to think we could (if we wanted to).


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 10:29
But still no answers to the OP question.

Why?




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 10:43
Why? what?  I looked back at the first post of this thread, and I see no "why" question there.  I recommend to you that you use complete sentences in describing "why?" and don't make people look back on previous posts in order to figure out what you are asking.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 15:17
franciscosan
Question from the OP.

Quote Does anyone on this forum have any idea where the ideas for their construction came from?

And as for the question, "Why?"-if you had been following the thread you would have found that I have asked why civil engineering works and architecture ideas (a) didn't last in certain countries/communities, and (b) what rational explanation is there for this phenomena.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 12:10
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

[quote]



Incidentially you might like to know that a theory exists as to why we haven't found any signals from alien civilisations. This idea emerged in the seventies and is largely forgotten, but imagine a paranoid race that builds a weapon to destroy potential rivals. A machine capable of destroying the eco-system of a planet - not entirely impossible even with our own level of technology. SO these things are wandering around out there homing in on signals from newly emerged civilisations to destroy them. And we've been broadcasting electromagnetic signals for something a bit longer than a century, which means if one of those machines happens to be passing within a hundred light years or so... Maybe you should invest in a nuke shelter too? :D

Right! But if there are Berserkers out there and they catch Hitler's speil they may want to meet us, lol.




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 12:24
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


I think there is a little bit of disparagement of "primitive" cultures when people can't imagine them creating such monuments as the Mayan pyramids, it is not exactly the same as racism, but is akin to it.
It "has" to be aliens, because how could such "primitives" do such things?  _We_ "obviously" could do such things, _if_ we wanted to, but we don't....  Personally, I don't think we could, or at least not without reverse engineering what they did.  But it matches our ego to think we could (if we wanted to).

You see I don't have any doubts that once the humans had modern physiology that their capacity for intelligence would match ours.  It's only a question of what you must know to survive. 

The Yanomami in South America have encyclopedic understanding of their natural world, seasonal changes, rivers, animals etc. In fact there was a group of Indians who recently made an attempt to educate us about how we are destroying the world. 

It's the failure of modern science to provide a link from hominid to human that makes Von Danekin such an entertainer writer.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 12:46
People forget, entropy prevails.  When you have a change in communications media, you loose things, how many movies get lost in the shuffle from film, to tape, to DVD?  The same happened in antiquity from the transition from scrolls to codices, a lot was lost.  It is rather easy for things get lost in the transition of things.  How many silent films were lost, even famous ones, in less than 100 years.  We have a list of Euripides plays, and we have a list of what plays of Euripides were in the Library of Alexandria.  Half of the list never made it through the 100, 150 years until the Library was opened.  Things get lost.  I think you are asking, "why do they get lost?"  Well, because people don't value them, because they are more work then people think they are worth.  Because the right combination came into existence to allow them to do something wonderful, and then that right combination gets disrupted.  Things change, people aren't as educated as they used to be, they have different priorities.  Civilization is a lot more tenuous than you think.  There are technological wonders that we don't know how to imitate.  granulation on gold work, _and_ we have their examples of it so we know it can be done.  Machu Picchu probably couldn't be built today, too dangerous, too many people falling off the side.
Does that help?  I don't really know what kind of answer you expect.
Just because you can articulate a question, doesn't mean that it can be answered to your satisfaction.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 14:23
People forget and oh how they remember. Anthropologists lump together the millinarianism of Christianity with the Melanesian cargo cults. Oppressed or disenfranchised people often envision a future when a returning hero bestows a bounty upon the faithful.
Suppose there was a civilization in South America when the Pacific Islanders landed. The Haplo group X found among the Basque and the *Melanesians* could have been advanced in ecstatic trance experience. 
*Native Americans*

http://Time%20estimates%20for%20the%20arrival%20of%20X%20in%20North%20America%20are%2012,000–36,000%20years%20ago,%20depending%20on%20the%20number%20of%20assumed%20founders,%20thus%20supporting%20the%20conclusion%20that%20the%20peoples%20harboring%20haplogroup%20X%20were%20among%20the%20original%20founders%20of%20Native%20American%20populations.%20To%20date,%20haplogroup%20X%20has%20not%20been%20unambiguously%20identified%20in%20Asia,%20raising%20the%20possibility%20that%20some%20Native%20American%20founders%20were%20of%20Caucasian%20ancestry." rel="nofollow - http://Time estimates for the arrival of X in North America are 12,000–36,000 years ago, depending on the number of assumed founders, thus supporting the conclusion that the peoples harboring haplogroup X were among the original founders of Native American populations. To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.

This is a universally similar perception of geometric shapes, color patterns, animals and animals turning into humans, often with regional culture infused. It has been achieved through chemical use. Rhythmic drumming, chanting and contemplative states could induce the experience, Buddhists would agree. 
A sense of being 'watched over' is commonly noted by ancient and modern accounts.

When Einstein (and others, Crick)  did his famous thought experiments he accessed information in an unconventional way. Maybe that was key for some civilizations. Angkor Wat in Cambodia is also a marvel and a mystery.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2017 at 03:16
Communication and patronage. Without telling people about your discoveries - and in some societies it could get you horribly executed - no-one learns about it. There's no cross-fertilisation of ideas. On the other hand, without patronage and investment from the wealthy classes (such as happened in ancient Rome), no-one sees invention as a worthwhile career path and invention remains a localised and temporary phenomenon linked to bright (and sometimes courageous) people here and there.

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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2017 at 14:08
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 

But the Normans had experienced Roman occupation, and all of the English scholars, artisans etc weren't killed off. So my question remains, why?

Our friend franciscosan has provided, among some extensive verbage, some explanation, but still doesn't provide the explanation.

As I've written before, if there are no explanations why architecture, civil engineering etc provided by the Romans, wasn't taken up and modernised over the centuries, OK, let's have some links to expert opinions who say that..

Bear in mind that, although the Romans had bath houses and health spas, in the middle and lower English socio-economic levels, an inside toilet was not common in every house, nor were bathrooms, until years after WW2.

These things have exercised my mind for many years.



Certainly the cathedrals are evidence that Britons used a creative palette and specialized skills. Masons, sculptors all manner of artisans, heavy laborers. Castles, Abbeys, Priories..ruins dating (some lost and forgotten) to 1160- as you say the Normans and William C. Good article-

http://In%201528%20Simon%20Fish%20published%20A%20Supplication%20for%20the%20Beggars.%20He%20argued%20that%20the%20clergy%20should%20spend%20their%20money%20in%20the%20relief%20of%20the%20poor%20and%20not%20amass%20it%20for%20monks%20to%20pray%20for%20souls.%20%2813%29%20Fish%20claimed%20that%20monks%20were%20"ravenous%20wolves"%20who%20had%20"debauched%20100,000%20women".%20He%20added%20that%20the%20monks%20were%20"the%20great%20scab"%20that%20would%20not%20allow%20the%20Bible%20to%20be%20published%20in%20"your%20mother%20tongue".%20%2814%29%20%20George%20M.%20Trevelyan%20has%20argued%20that%20this%20work%20had%20an%20impact%20on%20the%20thinking%20of%20Henry%20VIII:%20"The%20conclusion%20reached%20by%20the%20pamphleteer%20%28Simon%20Fish%29%20is%20that%20the%20clergy,%20especially%20the%20monks%20and%20friars,%20should%20be%20deprived%20of%20their%20wealth%20for%20the%20benefit%20of%20the%20King%20and%20Kingdom,%20and%20made%20to%20work%20like%20other%20men;%20let%20them%20also%20be%20allowed%20to%20marry%20and%20so%20be%20induced%20to%20leave%20other%20peoples%20wives%20alone.%20Such%20crude%20appeals%20to%20lay%20cupidity,%20and%20such%20veritable%20coarse%20anger%20at%20real%20abuses%20uncorrected%20down%20the%20centuries,%20had%20been%20generally%20prevalent%20in%20London%20under%20Wolseys%20regime,%20and%20at%20his%20fall%20such%20talk%20became%20equally%20fashionable%20at%20Court."%20%2815%29" rel="nofollow - http://In 1528 Simon Fish published A Supplication for the Beggars. He argued that the clergy should spend their money in the relief of the poor and not amass it for monks to pray for souls. (13) Fish claimed that monks were "ravenous wolves" who had "debauched 100,000 women". He added that the monks were "the great scab" that would not allow the Bible to be published in "your mother tongue". (14) George M. Trevelyan has argued that this work had an impact on the thinking of Henry VIII: "The conclusion reached by the pamphleteer (Simon Fish) is that the clergy, especially the monks and friars, should be deprived of their wealth for the benefit of the King and Kingdom, and made to work like other men; let them also be allowed to marry and so be induced to leave other people's wives alone. Such crude appeals to lay cupidity, and such veritable coarse anger at real abuses uncorrected down the centuries, had been generally prevalent in London under Wolsey's regime, and at his fall such talk became equally fashionable at Court." (15)

The architecture of cathedrals is based on the old  http://quatr.us/romans/architecture/basilicas.htm" rel="nofollow - Roman basilica . The earliest Christian churches were a lot like Roman basilicas. But the biggest cathedrals are bigger and higher than the biggest Roman basilicas. Early medieval architects built cathedrals in the  http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/romanesque.htm" rel="nofollow - Romanesque style , and then later (beginning about  http://quatr.us/timelines/1100ad.htm" rel="nofollow - 1100 AD ) they built cathedrals in the  http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/gothic.htm" rel="nofollow - Gothic style . You'll find some examples of Romanesque and Gothic cathedrals on the  http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/romanesque.htm" rel="nofollow - Romanesque  and  http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/gothic.htm" rel="nofollow - Gothic  pages.
http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/cathedral.htm" rel="nofollow - http://quatr.us/medieval/architecture/cathedral.htm
toyomotor, 
After the 2nd Punic war Rome built many large walls and fortifications in So Gaul capital Narbo now Narbonne, France. These walls and forts were maintained up until the 10th and 11th century when forts became settlements known as the bourgs. These fortifications grew into the castles of the Languedoc - Albigensian Crusades (1209-1300). After waves of invasions over the centuries and continual repair the Tower at Carcassonne, for example, retains the hallmarks of the Gallo-Roman defense design of the late Empire. 


Hadrian's Wall 
http://www.ancient.eu/Hadrians_Wall/" rel="nofollow - http://www.ancient.eu/Hadrians_Wall/

Following the Roman withdrawal, large portions of the wall were carried off for personal building projects by the local inhabitants. Huge sections were removed to provide paving for British troops heading north on muddy tracks to quell the Jacobite Uprising of 1745 CE.  Hadrian’s Wall may have disappeared entirely were it not for the efforts of one man, the antiquarian John Clayton (1792-1890 CE) who, in 1834 CE, began buying the land around the wall in an effort to preserve it. Clayton’s excavations and enthusiasm for the site kept what remains of Hadrian’s Wall intact and, in 1987 CE, it was declared a World Heritage Site by UNESCO. Today it is under the care of English Heritage commission and is cared for largely by volunteers who recognize its immense historical significance.




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2017 at 14:24
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Communication and patronage. Without telling people about your discoveries - and in some societies it could get you horribly executed - no-one learns about it. There's no cross-fertilisation of ideas. On the other hand, without patronage and investment from the wealthy classes (such as happened in ancient Rome), no-one sees invention as a worthwhile career path and invention remains a localised and temporary phenomenon linked to bright (and sometimes courageous) people here and there.

I believe you told us that you studied engineering. Are you referring to the Masons when you mention horrible executions?


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2017 at 23:57
Vanuatu wrote
Quote After the 2nd Punic war Rome built many large walls and fortifications in So Gaul capital Narbo now Narbonne, France. These walls and forts were maintained up until the 10th and 11th century when forts became settlements known as the bourgs. These fortifications grew into the castles of the Languedoc - Albigensian Crusades (1209-1300). After waves of invasions over the centuries and continual repair the Tower at Carcassonne, for example, retains the hallmarks of the Gallo-Roman defense design of the late Empire.

Yes, I'm aware of the many ancient buildings which have survived centuries of war etc. But, to harp on the subject, my mind is exercised by the of why of the so many brilliant architectural and civil works were abandoned, or simply ignored over the centuries.

I understand that, in many cases, those structures, buildings etc. had little meaning to the average person, or more likely those people lacked understanding of just what almost miraculous works were available for them to use and to expand upon.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2017 at 14:00
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu wrote
Quote After the 2nd Punic war Rome built many large walls and fortifications in So Gaul capital Narbo now Narbonne, France. These walls and forts were maintained up until the 10th and 11th century when forts became settlements known as the bourgs. These fortifications grew into the castles of the Languedoc - Albigensian Crusades (1209-1300). After waves of invasions over the centuries and continual repair the Tower at Carcassonne, for example, retains the hallmarks of the Gallo-Roman defense design of the late Empire.

Yes, I'm aware of the many ancient buildings which have centuries of war etc. But, to harp on the subject, my mind is exercised by the of why of the so many brilliant architectural and civil works were abandoned, or simply ignored over the centuries.

I understand that, in many cases, those structures, buildings etc. had little meaning to the average person, or more likely those people lacked understanding of just what almost miraculous works were available for them to use and to expand upon.

I just thought it was a nice example of the persistence of the Roman influence. It's a very beautiful region and the hilltop forts are spectacular. 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2017 at 18:33
I hear that there are a lot of Romans in Italy.

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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2017 at 00:32
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I hear that there are a lot of Romans in Italy.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/345

You'll love the cathedral


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2017 at 12:07
I quit!!

It seems that there are no answers to my questions regarding the ancient architecture and civil engineering as constructed by South Americans, Egyptians and the Romans.

The technology appears to have been lost, for whatever reason, and then "re-invented" centuries later.

As for those posts which have mentioned aliens as being responsible for of these "miracles", I'm certainly not going to say that it's impossible.

____________________________________________________________________________________

Everything is possible,
Except the impossible,
And we're working on that.

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

(Just thought I'd throw those two in)Big smile



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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2017 at 12:11

On TV right now, there is a Father Brown Mystery.  In it in the '20s or 30s, an Anglican priest plays detective.  GK Chesterton wrote them.  In the Father Brown series it is typical that the more "rationalistic" detectives or others, because they don't understand what it is happening, jump to the conclusion that whatever is happening must be supernatural, whereas the priest assumes a (and figures out the) rational explanation.   Now Father Brown believes in the miracles of the Bible, but that is the realm of theology, and in the everyday world, we should assume a rational explanation even if we don't necessarily understand.  God gave us reason, and reason will account for 99.99999999999999999 % of everything, maybe not yesterday, or even today, but for all time.  Same is true with Mayan or Incan Temples, you may not be able to _imagine_ how men made them, but whether you can imagine or not, doesn't mean they weren't made by men.  

You can quit if you want, Toyomotor, but you won't get back your deposit, and we won't give you a good reference if you don't give 2 week noticeWink

A man's gotta realize his limitations.
Dirty Harry 



Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2017 at 18:52
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


On TV right now, there is a Father Brown Mystery.  In it in the '20s or 30s, an Anglican priest plays detective.  GK Chesterton wrote them.  In the Father Brown series it is typical that the more "rationalistic" detectives or others, because they don't understand what it is happening, jump to the conclusion that whatever is happening must be supernatural, whereas the priest assumes a (and figures out the) rational explanation.   Now Father Brown believes in the miracles of the Bible, but that is the realm of theology, and in the everyday world, we should assume a rational explanation even if we don't necessarily understand.  God gave us reason, and reason will account for 99.99999999999999999 % of everything, maybe not yesterday, or even today, but for all time.  Same is true with Mayan or Incan Temples, you may not be able to _imagine_ how men made them, but whether you can imagine or not, doesn't mean they weren't made by men.  

You can quit if you want, Toyomotor, but you won't get back your deposit, and we won't give you a good reference if you don't give 2 week noticeWink

A man's gotta realize his limitations.
Dirty Harry 


franciscosan

Only quitting this thread, not the forum.
I respectfully, and with great regret give you 14 calendar days notice of my intention to seperate my self from this thread. Unless, that is, you could cut me some slack and give me some answers as to why the various technologies didn't survive and improve over the centuries.
Yours faithfully....etc. etc.Wink


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 20:55
Quote I believe you told us that you studied engineering. Are you referring to the Masons when you mention horrible executions?

Definitely not. The influence of Free Masonry is marginal despite a lot of paranoia and urban legend. Executions were more to do with religion, with science seen as a sort of potential parallel to the 'Apple of Knowledge' idea maintained by Christian teaching, a transgression of deific rights over creation and invention, and a suppression of free thinking in favour of obedient conformity. Islam had no such qualms in previous eras, with middle eastern countries - especially Syria - hosting some very advanced ideas. Of course things have changed a little since then.

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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 14:12
Indigenous South Americans have generational family histories that tell of these people going into the jungle to get away from slavers at the turn of the century. Now many are coming out and making "First Contact" because they cannot sustain themselves or no longer want to be isolated. Some have talked about having family members shot by land developers and how they now wanted clothes and feel embarrassed to be naked.
There isn't much jungle left, certainly the ancient South Americans would have disappeared into the jungle if they were mistreated. I wonder if the dispersal of family groups will be analyzed genetically. 



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 16:59
Vanuatu

I doubt that dispersal of family groups will be genetically tracked, unless of course someone is already doing genetic work on the tribe.

Tracking the tribal dispersal, I would think will almost be a certainty, as has been done with many different tribes and ethnic groups around the globe. Including us.

Just another case of intrusion into a natve habitat, and not good for the occupants.

This is the way in which tribes eventually lose all sense of identity, melding with other populations, losing language, history and customs.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 13:21
This is the most recent documentary I'm aware of, here the 'UnContacted' speak in a kind of South American version of Esperanto, a pidgin Brazilian. 
Very good watch if you like this kind of thing. Their embarrassment at being naked is so curious to me, so Adam & Eve-ish.



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 17:21
We haven't just wandered off topic here, it was a full gallop.




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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 01:18
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

We haven't just wandered off topic here, it was a full gallop.



Ride, Captain Ride




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 15:42
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

We haven't just wandered off topic here, it was a full gallop.



Ride, Captain Ride



Thumbs Up


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 May 2017 at 17:28
Would someone please have a look at the following site, and tell me it isn't similar to a South American Megalith.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-asia/revealing-mysterious-story-koh-ker-pyramid-cambodia-008013" rel="nofollow - http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-asia/revealing-mysterious-story-koh-ker-pyramid-cambodia-008013

On another thread, I suggested that similar buildings to those found in Mesopotamia, called Ziggurats, were to be found in South America. I don't say that they're identical, but very similar.

If we agree with that proposition, could it simply be coincidence, or could the idea have been brought to South America by a traveller, from wherever?


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 10 May 2017 at 13:12
I have never seen a pyramid in person, so I don't feel qualified to compare and contrast pyramids, ziggurats, Mayan Temples, Cambodian Temples.  To do it right I would have to look at them each in person.  Now I suspect that they would be similar, but so are triangles.  I do not assume that all triangles have a common source.  A pyramid is such a plain shape that I don't see a need for a common point or origin or diffusion.  If you have an octahedron, a shape that appears in fluorine crystals in nature, then burying half and having the other half stick up gives you a four sided pyramid.

Now could it be diffusion?  Maybe but I doubt it.  You would have to have travelers between the Old World and the New World _after_ the building of the pyramids, most belief for migrations to the New World are before the building of the Egyptian pyramids, the ziggurats or the Cambodian Temples.  Personally, I prefer to believe that the Cambodians and the Mayans were intelligent enough to come up with their temples on their own.  I have not seen any stories regarding genetic evidence for late contact of Old World and New World, nor any stories regarding linguistic evidence.  I seem to remember that Thor Heyerdahl in Kon-Tiki showed that it was possible for a reed boat to make it across the Atlantic, but of course, Heyerdahl knew where he was going.  Again, I _prefer_ to believe that the Cambodians and the Mayans were intelligent enough.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 19 May 2017 at 17:49
Take a look at the link provided, and then have a look at a South American construction and venture an opinion on whether or not they appear to be similar. That's all I'm asking.

And they're not pyramids, they're closer to zigurats, as in Mesopotamia.

If course, one would need to be an archeologist and examine the buildings up close to compare the similarities, or otherwise.


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From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.(Chief Joseph)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 20 May 2017 at 07:58
Well, to me, they look like pyramids, and all pyramids look alike, so yes, they look alike, just like all obtuse angles look alike.  So you have pyramids and step pyramids, one goes through a stage of building step pyramids before building (proper) pyramids.  Look up, I believe, the Pyramid of Zoser (I think that is right, Zosar??).  The (proper) pyramids are further developments which are possible because they built in stone, rather than mud brick.  Such developments were probably impossible for Mesopotamia, because of the building material of mud brick.  I believe that the 'pyramids' in Cambodia and Mesoamerica are built out of stone, so in that sense, they are more like Egypt, than they are like the ziggurats of Mesopotamia.

But, no I don't think that they have a common or derivative origin.  Just like I think Mayan writing was invented independent of the Old World.  Now writing is extraordinary enough, that I think it was only invented once in the Old World, although maybe Sumerian and Chinese were independent of each other, I'll let the experts figure out that one.  I also think that it is more wonderful that different people came up with the "same" great idea (pyramids), than everything was invented but once, and copied by _everyone_ else.



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