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Trump & foreign matters

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Topic: Trump & foreign matters
Posted By: franciscosan
Subject: Trump & foreign matters
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2017 at 20:53
This is meant to replace "dump on Trump," which was originally just for the election.

There is a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth these days.  One could see it in the Academy awards from the people who want to be loved by everybody.  But I think that things are over exaggerated for affect.  The presidency of Donald Trump will be a significant one, one way or the other, it will be "colossal."  Colossal what is another question, but we should not presuppose what it will be, before hand, but try to work with it.  And by with it, I also mean against it, but within the realm of good faith, and fair play. 

Trump is not an ordinary politician by any stretch of the imagination, therefore we are in uncharted territory.  Both in the foreign matters and domestic.  The usual formulas for judging a politician go out the window in regards of judging Trump.
Example:
How we hear the wrong message:
I think of the intelligence estimates of WMDs in Iraq at the beginning of the Iraq War.  The US and the rest of the world genuinely believed that Iraq had WMDs.  But they were surprised when the invasion did not turn up anything, and the naysayers blasted them for "lying."  Saddam Hussein, they said, had been saying all along that he had gotten rid of the WMDs, and so he had.
But Hussein had been saying one thing to the West and another thing to Iran, and the intelligence community was listening to both things.  For Iran, Saddam Hussein was saying that he still had WMDs. 

Problem is we were listening to what he said to us, and what he was saying to them.  And the intelligence community took the wrong message seriously.   

What does that have to do President Trump?  Well, part of the domestic population, the part that more heavily influences the media, think Trump is terrible, and they look to other parts of the world for "confirmation," to find people that agree with them.  The problem is, those people are often just echoing what the American media is saying.  So, you can not trust what NPR says about foreign perception, nor can you trust the BBC.  Not because they are lying, but because they are telling you what you want to hear.  Not even consciously, but they are echoing you.
They are looking at the alarm Trump causes, and they often are viscerally responding to that alarm.  And the funny thing is that alarm looked at the foreign response (which often it has created), and gets even more alarmed.  It is a feedback loop, and it doesn't benefit anyone really, except Narcissistic Hollywood types in love with their own reflection.  The question is how to ground out the perception of Trump and his policies on something real. 
 
So I ask my fellow posters for comments and criticism related to Trump, the US and the rest of the world.  If you don't like Trump, try to find something good about him.  And if you do like Trump, try to find some "difficulty' he is creating, and acknowledge it as a difficulty.  If you're negative, look for the positive, if you're positive, look for the negative.Ying Yang

Example:
There was an editorial in the Wall Street Journal, that complimented him on tweeting in support of the opposition leader of Venezuela.  Obama had been cordial to demagogues Chavez and his successor (Nicholas Moduro?), and ignored the opposition, while the demagogues ran the country into the ground.  Trump, however, was putting a spotlight on the jailed opposition leader, which the government would prefer to ignore, and let rot in a hole.



Replies:
Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 09:27
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

This is meant to replace "dump on Trump," which was originally just for the election.

There is a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth these days.  One could see it in the Academy awards from the people who want to be loved by everybody.  But I think that things are over exaggerated for affect.

Agree, there is no end to the horror, the pet therapy.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 
Problem is we were listening to what he said to us, and what he was saying to them.  And the intelligence community took the wrong message seriously.   

What does that have to do President Trump?  Well, part of the domestic population, the part that more heavily influences the media, think Trump is terrible, and they look to other parts of the world for "confirmation," to find people that agree with them.  The problem is, those people are often just echoing what the American media is saying.  So, you can not trust what NPR says about foreign perception, nor can you trust the BBC.  Not because they are lying, but because they are telling you what you want to hear.  Not even consciously, but they are echoing you.
They are looking at the alarm Trump causes, and they often are viscerally responding to that alarm.  And the funny thing is that alarm looked at the foreign response (which often it has created), and gets even more alarmed.  It is a feedback loop, and it doesn't benefit anyone really, except Narcissistic Hollywood types in love with their own reflection.  The question is how to ground out the perception of Trump and his policies on something real.
Focus on the economy. Jobs, markets, investors all poised to see those tax cuts and relief from some redundant regulations. Wages increase for technical jobs that do not require a degree like iPhones and maybe Honda. He's doing good things and the press should mention it.
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So I ask my fellow posters for comments and criticism related to Trump, the US and the rest of the world.  If you don't like Trump, try to find something good about him.  And if you do like Trump, try to find some "difficulty' he is creating, and acknowledge it as a difficulty.  If you're negative, look for the positive, if you're positive, look for the negative.Ying Yang


It's easy to see that Trump is often difficult.The stubbornness is no less than what he gets, in fact people have been vicious about attacking his family. So Trump tells them what dishonest people they are, it's warranted because of the relentlessly biased media. Now media talks about itself like HAL in 2001.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0706937/" rel="nofollow - HAL : I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do. 
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001158/" rel="nofollow - Dave Bowman : What are you talking about, HAL? 
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0706937/" rel="nofollow - HAL : This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it. 
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001158/" rel="nofollow - Dave Bowman : I don't know what you're talking about, HAL. 
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0706937/" rel="nofollow - HAL : I know that you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen. 
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001158/" rel="nofollow - Dave Bowman : [feigning ignorance] Where the hell did you get that idea, HAL? 
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0706937/" rel="nofollow - HAL : Dave, although you took very thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move. 





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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 11:26
For the good of the USA and it's people, I sincerely hope Trump calms down a bit, stops sniping at people, takes advice and gets on with the job of running the country.

If he wanted controversy, he's certainly got it.

If he wanted publicity, he's got it.

Now, how about shut the **** up and get on with the job?


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 21:21
the pet therapy.  good one. LOL
although it should invoke the death of Kurtz in Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness (of which Apocalypse Now is a version).  On a riverboat in the Belgian Congo the main character watches Kurtz die, Kurtz last words on his deathbed are, "the horror! the horror!"

Now we have the modern version, "the horror! the pet therapy!'

Rahm Emmanuel, Obama's chief of staff and now mayor of Chicago, said, "never let a crisis go to waste."  In other words, you can push through a lot of things during a crisis, which during normal operations you couldn't get done.  It is a cynical and manipulative point of view.  In some ways it describes Trump quite well, but the difference is that crisis is the norm for Trump and he does quite well in it.  It is his native habitat.  Blaming him for the crisis he creates is like blaming a fish for the water in which he swims.  He is not aware of this as anything other than what he has to do to get things done.  Conflict for him is par for the course.  It is a very shallow view, but part of the problem with the media and the left is that they have read deeper meanings into thing that Trump has said.

Think about sailing ships, if you have the horse latitudes like the Saragossa Sea, you can get caught in the doldrums.  That is bad.  If you go to the other extreme you have storms that can wash over a ship and capsize it.  That is bad.  In-between you have a strong breeze and then helps you get a nice steady pace.  Trump is someone who can harness the gale, ride it out and do quite well, for himself.  The question is whether in the process he will contribute to others not making it.  Trump has always been for himself, the question is how much is he really for America or the World.  He does however, even in selfishness have a better understanding of the little guy getting swamped in America politics.  Better than either of the political parties, better than any of the major political actors.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 22:35
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

For the good of the USA and it's people, I sincerely hope Trump calms down a bit, stops sniping at people, takes advice and gets on with the job of running the country.

If he wanted controversy, he's certainly got it.

If he wanted publicity, he's got it.

Now, how about shut the **** up and get on with the job?

Why do you say "get on with the job" as if we were talking about Obama? Trump is like a train, good analogy. He has a mandate, he's moving forward with it.

Who can account for what your media/our media- is reporting?


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 23:05

President Trump does _not_ have a mandate.  Trump won the electoral college, but lost the popular vote, I would not call that a mandate.  
President Obama originally won with 57% (?) of the popular vote, he _declared_ that that gave him a mandate.  However, whenever you consider that probably between 1/3 and 1/2 of the American people vote in a _Presidential_ election, then at best Obama got 28% of those of eligible age to vote.  I would not consider that a mandate either.

Considering that it is hard to get registered voters to vote in the US, the idea that 3.9 million illegals would vote (all for Hillary) is a bit preposterous.  But what is the intention and the consequences of Trump's naming various foreign bogeymen?  It is obviously politically expedient for him to do so.  Question is though, what might be the unintended consequences?

Trump as a train is a good analogy, he does tend to run over anyone and anything that gets in his way.  On the other hand, it is not like you cannot see the train-a-coming....  What will happen if there is a derailment?


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2017 at 00:25
Vanuatu wrote
Quote Who can account for what your media/our media- is reporting?

Well, as I've written elsewhere, that's the problem. Our media reports what your media presents and I wouldn't have a clue whether the US sources are unbiased and accurate or not.

As for getting on with the job, I wasn't saying that he isn't, but that more evidence of this, and less of his sniping at Obama, judges, the media etc, would be of more interest.

As to whether or not Trump has a mandate to govern, I don't know. There's been so much in the media about the popular vote versus the Electoral College that it's hard for me to determine what's true and what's not.

franciscosan says that Trump doesn't have a mandate, and uses a train as an analogy for Trump.

Quote Trump as a train is a good analogy, he does tend to run over anyone and anything that gets in his way.  On the other hand, it is not like you cannot see the train-a-coming....  What will happen if there is a derailment?

I can't make anyfirther comment.




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Cardmines52
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 14:36
I like him. He is good at tv show . http://meilichun.com/female-anchor-legs-open-on-tv/" rel="nofollow - Female anchor legs open on tv Cuase I think he can be a good leader.



Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 14:41
Hello Cardmines52, big hearing going on right now over press leaks and Sessions meetings with Russian ambassador. Stick around! 

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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 15:17
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


President Trump does _not_ have a mandate.  Trump won the electoral college, but lost the popular vote, I would not call that a mandate.  
President Obama originally won with 57% (?) of the popular vote, he _declared_ that that gave him a mandate.  However, whenever you consider that probably between 1/3 and 1/2 of the American people vote in a _Presidential_ election, then at best Obama got 28% of those of eligible age to vote.  I would not consider that a mandate either.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442227/donald-trump-gop-congress-2016-election-mandates" rel="nofollow - http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442227/donald-trump-gop-congress-2016-election-mandates

Yes he do!


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2017 at 23:09
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Hello Cardmines52, big hearing going on right now over press leaks and Sessions meetings with Russian ambassador. Stick around! 

The media has gone so far as to say that the intelligence "community" are warning that the presidency is in trouble, the biggest troble in fact since Watergate.

Trumps allegations of having been wire tapped have been dismissed as lies after an investigation was launched, and his campaign links to Russia are under even more scrutiny.

The man continues to lie, he claims to have had a GREAT meeting with Angela Merkel, TV footage, including audio, shows that he refused to shake hands with her.

Does Trump think that his outright lies and alternative facts are believed by the American people. Let's not make any more excuses for him, he's a liar and not trustworthy enough to hold the position of the worlds most powerful man.


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2017 at 01:09
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Hello Cardmines52, big hearing going on right now over press leaks and Sessions meetings with Russian ambassador. Stick around! 

The media has gone so far as to say that the intelligence "community" are warning that the presidency is in trouble, the biggest troble in fact since Watergate.

Trumps allegations of having been wire tapped have been dismissed as lies after an investigation was launched, and his campaign links to Russia are under even more scrutiny.

The man continues to lie, he claims to have had a GREAT meeting with Angela Merkel, TV footage, including audio, shows that he refused to shake hands with her.

Does Trump think that his outright lies and alternative facts are believed by the American people. Let's not make any more excuses for him, he's a liar and not trustworthy enough to hold the position of the worlds most powerful man.
 Boa Noite my Australian comrade,
Well, they (FBI) admit to having a two year investigation on Trump ...but no surveillance? Maybe "wire tap" is outdated term and convenient term to dismiss surveillance. 
You may now list all honest politicians.


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2017 at 06:53
Vanuatu wrote[quote]You may now list all honest politicians.]/quote]

Ummmmm. let me see now.

Can I get back to you?




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2017 at 10:38
We would not start such a list with Trump. I'm not kidding myself he's spins just as much as any of them and lies like all politicians. I have a particular dislike for Obama so everything his does pretty much is a half empty glass. So, no problem with you slamming Trump. 

As far as Merkel, I looked at that film. He seems like he didn't hear or who knows maybe needed a rest room? I can't imagine a reason to not shake her hand, maybe he wire tapped her like Obama did and she said something nasty about him!

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/03/20/sean-spicer-trump-didnt-hear-merkels-handshake-request/" rel="nofollow - http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/03/20/sean-spicer-trump-didnt-hear-merkels-handshake-request/  


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2017 at 12:06
Come on mate!

Trump has been critical of Angela Merkel and her policies, notwithstanding that she's one of the longest serving, and popular leaders in Europe.

He sits there with his usual sulky kid facial expression, ignored Merkels request to shake hands for the cameras, and then has the un mitigated gall to say that he and Angela had  GREAT MEETING.

At the same time, his flunkies are trying to pursuade us that in fact they shook hands twice-in private of course.

Regardless of what Obama did or didn't do, Trump is an habitual, pathological LIAR!!

The Washington establishment, including members of his own political party, are treading very cautiously in the belief that he wont see out one full term, and they don't want to be brought down by his and his general behaviour.

He's not s statesman or a diplomat. He lacks understanding of the international agreements to which the USA is a signatory. His TV persona before election was that of a bully, nothings changed.

My inbred politeness, respect for you and the forum CoC prevent me for saying exactly what I feel about this man. The first word that comes to mind is RShole.

My belief that Barak Obama did a good job may be illfounded, but at least he wasn't a BLATANT LIAR.


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2017 at 22:35
I am not going to get worked up about who did or didn't shake hands, or who did or didn't bow, or whatever, and I would suggest that no one else get worked up about it either.

When Franklin D Roosevelt died, my dad, being the Republican kid he was, thought that was great until his father came down on him, saying that he should have respect for the President, as the President, even though as Republicans, our family did not agree with his policies.

I humbly suggest, especially to you, toyomotor, that political or historical figures mentioned should be addressed by their first and last name, or their title and last name, at least for the first time mentioned in a post.  First as a sign of respect, and second so that people reading this in the future will have something more than just a last name if they want to research it further.  So, it would be Chancellor Angela Merkel, or Angela Merkel, or President Trump, or Donald Trump, or if you are talking about a particular aspect of his personality, businessman Trump.  But get out of the school yard of just saying, "Trump is a liar!"  If you are going to attack him, I suggest killing with kindness, "I hearby put forth in front of you that the honorable businessman from New York is a liar.  [and give an example]"  Follow proper decorum, which may be the last thing President Trump would do, but it shows that you quarrel with his actions, not with his personality (or lack thereof).


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2017 at 22:53
Remember that people reading this in the future, will not have the familiarity with this motley cast of characters that we do.  Give titles, and/or full names.  If you don't know titles or first names, okay, but give people in the future a handle, a description or something which refers to the individual, and only for last resort depend on just the last name in the entire post.  

Donald Trump does not have the precision that Barack Obama, or other politicians traditionally do.  Let's face it he is very rich (a multi-multi millionaire) and so he is probably used to being very vague, and having underlings translate his statements into something coherent.  His underlings probably can conceptualize what he "wants" better than he does himself.  Frankly, if all he wants is a gold plated escalator, he doesn't really need to get specific or have aesthetic sensitivity for that.  I would consider that at least some times, when he is called a liar, it is more a matter of him fishing with dynamite.  Saying that President Obama bugged Trump tower is an example of that.  Obama did not "wiretap" Trump tower by any stretch of the imagination, but US intelligence services monitor communications with Russia, and his short lived National Security Advisor, (General Flint??), got caught because of that.  Trump wants to know if any of his other associates got caught in the same way, basically so he could make a 'pre-emptive strike' before such news got out.  Trump has no consideration for other political or legal institutions, in his egotism, he is perfectly happy to tear them down, in order to build himself up.  For those who think he will succumb to pressure, I suggest looking at his bankruptcies.  He is durable if nothing else.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 01:43
franciscosan wrote
Quote I humbly suggest, especially to you, toyomotor, that political or historical figures mentioned should be addressed by their first and last name, or their title and last name, at least for the first time mentioned in a post.  First as a sign of respect, and second so that people reading this in the future will have something more than just a last name if they want to research it further. 

It's impossible for me to show respect for Trump, it would also be hypocritical.

For me to do as you suggest would be showing deference to a person who I believe to be a narcissistic meglomaniac who lives in his own dream world.

I'm happy to show respect for Chancellor Merkel, and I meant no disrespect to her in my previous posts.


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 02:59
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Come on mate!

Trump has been critical of Angela Merkel and her policies, notwithstanding that she's one of the longest serving, and popular leaders in Europe.

Greetings!
Your opinion is safe with me but not everyone agrees with the refugee policy. Merkel admitted to pushing things and caused her people considerable distress. 
Germany, along with much of Western Europe, has four major domestic problems: (1) an unsustainable welfare state, (2) low birth rates, (3) a large and growing Muslim population that has not assimilated to Western values, and (4) a cowardly political class that will not even acknowledge that the combination of these problems is destroying Europe from within.

http://spectator.org/angela-merkel-is-the-second-worst-postwar-chancellor-of-germany/" rel="nofollow - http://spectator.org/angela-merkel-is-the-second-worst-postwar-chancellor-of-germany/

We are seeing the same events in a near polar opposition.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

He sits there with his usual sulky kid facial expression, ignored Merkels request to shake hands for the cameras, and then has the un mitigated gall to say that he and Angela had  GREAT MEETING.

he looked like he could not wait to leave that meeting, I don't think he has much respect for her and he made the usual pleasantries bc like all politicians, he will lie to axchieve his objectives. Lying about having a "great meeting" and lying about what started the attack of the US Embassy in Benghazi in 2012 are worlds apart. see Susan Rice, Hillary Clinton & Obama.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

At the same time, his flunkies are trying to pursuade us that in fact they shook hands twice-in private of course.

Are Merkel's flunkies denying that they shook hands privately?

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Regardless of what Obama did or didn't do, Trump is an habitual, pathological LIAR!!
Ditto Obama- and why do we not regard what Obama did or didn't do? You are comparing Trump to Obama.
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/statements/byruling/false/" rel="nofollow - http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/statements/byruling/false/

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

The Washington establishment, including members of his own political party, are treading very cautiously in the belief that he wont see out one full term, and they don't want to be brought down by his and his general behaviour.
The Washington establishment hates Trump. What you don't want to acknowledge is that most Americans hate the Washington establishment. Enemy of enemy..

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

He's not s statesman or a diplomat. He lacks understanding of the international agreements to which the USA is a signatory. His TV persona before election was that of a bully, nothings changed.

Over the last eight years, the world has become more unstable, more unpredictable, and more dangerous. America is no longer respected by the rest of the world, thanks to President Obama. A feckless and weak foreign policy has emboldened our enemies and undermined our allies. It will take years, if not decades, to clean up the mess this president has left behind.

Here are Obama’s 7 worst foreign policy blunders:5. Abandoning South Sudan only to witness ethnic cleansing. South Sudan was the Bush administration’s success story. After years of negotiation, President George W. Bush helped to negotiate a peace between Khartoum (Sudan) and Juba, South Sudan’s newly formed capital. Years of bloodshed had finally come to end as South Sudan became the newest country to join the world of nations. When Obama assumed office, he promised he would carry on Bush’s legacy and make sure that nascent state would go on to see successful days ahead. He lied. Comfortably ensconced in the White House, Obama began pulling U.S. assets out of South Sudan. He refused to monitor the geopolitical situation on the ground, opting instead to pivot his attention to Asia. Even when South Sudanese officials implored the Obama administration to send further assistance to the newly-formed country, the president refused. With the U.S. turning a blind eye, South Sudan began unraveling. Vice President Riek Machar of the Nuer people left the capital in Juba and formed a paramilitary force against President Salva Kiir of the Dinka people in hopes of attempting a coup. Since then, Kiir and Machar’s forces have been at each other’s throats, massacring each other’s respective peoples. Thousands of children have been forced to become child soldiers. Thousands of women have been raped by men in uniform. Thousands of people have perished in an ethnic war that doesn’t appear to ending anytime soon.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/12596/good-riddance-obamas-7-worst-foreign-policy-michael-qazvini#exit-modal" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailywire.com/news/12596/good-riddance-obamas-7-worst-foreign-policy-michael-qazvini#exit-modal

One is enough! Don't expect Obama's J-V (meaning junior varsity, [for the future] being not the best players in Obama's pointless imaginings about ISIS) approach to politics to change.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

My inbred politeness, respect for you and the forum CoC prevent me for saying exactly what I feel about this man. The first word that comes to mind is RShole.

You are holding back? You need not do so on my account. 

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

My belief that Barak Obama did a good job may be illfounded, but at least he wasn't a BLATANT LIAR.
Except, he was a blatant liar.
1.  Americans want higher taxes
2.  Mother denied health insurance
3.  Tax restraint for middle and lower class
4.  Shovel-ready jobs
5.  Keep your doctor
6.  No lobbyists
7.  Foreign money in campaigns
8.  Arizona immigration law
9.  Transparency
10.  Constitutional oath

Just having some fun. What's the health care situation in Australia? What happens if you are bit by a dingo?


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 04:21
A story that you may not remeber from 2010. Obama's flunkies tap dancing. "If you play a tune and people don't tap their feet, don't play that tune." -Count Basie
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/29/white-house-downplays-russian-agent-plot-says-obama-knew-medvedev-visit.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/29/white-house-downplays-russian-agent-plot-says-obama-knew-medvedev-visit.html

The  http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/white-house.htm#r_src=ramp" rel="nofollow - White House  and the  http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/state-department.htm#r_src=ramp" rel="nofollow - State Department  both downplayed the implications of the blockbuster investigation, which revealed an elaborate Russian intelligence plot to infiltrate the U.S. government. White House Press Secretary  http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/obama-administration/robert-gibbs.htm#r_src=ramp" rel="nofollow - Robert Gibbs  said Tuesday that  http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/obama-administration/barack-obama.htm#r_src=ramp" rel="nofollow - President Obama  had been briefed a "number of times" before the arrests and was "fully and appropriately informed" of the investigation. 

He said Obama knew about it even before he took Russian President  http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/president-dmitry-medvedev.htm#r_src=ramp" rel="nofollow - Dmitry Medvedev  out to a Virginia burger joint last Thursday. 

Beyond that, Gibbs said the president has no "personal reaction" to the case and that the arrests should not hurt the administration's attempts to mend fences with Moscow. 

"I do not believe that this will affect the reset of our relationship with  http://www.foxnews.com/topics/russia.htm#r_src=ramp" rel="nofollow - Russia ," he said. 

State Department spokesman Phil Gordon went further, saying nobody should be surprised that secret Russian agents are operating in the country. He suggested the  http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/justice-department.htm#r_src=ramp" rel="nofollow - Justice Department , which announced the arrests Monday, was not on the same page as the State Department. 

"I think the timing underscores that the Department of Justice is in a different channel," Gordon said, clarifying that the timetable was "appropriate" for Justice, while State is "moving on the diplomatic issues." 

Gordon said the arrests merely show that the two countries have not yet reached the level of "trust and cooperation" where they can be completely open with one another. 

"I don't think anyone in this room is shocked to have discovered that. And so yes, you know, we're moving towards a more trusting relationship. We're beyond the Cold War. I think our relations absolutely demonstrate that. But as I say, I don't think anyone was hugely shocked to know that some vestiges of old attempts to use intelligence are still there," he said. 





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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 12:42
From what I've seen on TV News and read in the print media,I've formed opinions about Trump that obviously make me incapable of making unbiased comments about him and some of his senior administration.

On that basis, I disqualify myself from making any further posts about him.




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2017 at 19:41
So, forgive me for being dense here toyomotor but have you come to this conclusion bc of my pointing it out? 

Do you realize I admit the same bias myself?

Do you not have the luxury of disliking Trump?

Are your earlier posts going back 25 pages in the Dump on Trump thread also too biased for WH?


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 01:23
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

So, forgive me for being dense here toyomotor but have you come to this conclusion bc of my pointing it out? 

Do you realize I admit the same bias myself?

Do you not have the luxury of disliking Trump?

Are your earlier posts going back 25 pages in the Dump on Trump thread also too biased for WH?

1. I don't think so. I didn't want to be deliberately antagonistic because I detected early that you leaned Mr. Trumps way.

2. I don't think you deliberately declare any bias, but your opinions speak for themselves, and tha's OK.

3. Yes, I have the luxury of disliking the man, but I didn't see much future in labouring the point and appearing to spam you.

4. Whether or not the sum of my posts is greater than the result Wink is for others to decide. I've made my opinions clear, but decided to leave the conversation.

In my role as a Mod, I think I have to act in an unbiased manner when deciding whether or not posts made by others go too far, and so I have also to apply some rules on myself.

I disagree with what you say, but will defend etc. etc.


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 01:39
no, you can't disqualify yourself, you can stop posting on this thread, but you can't disqualify yourself.
_I_ say so.  :P  :)
I would suggest that if you think the thread is going in a direction where you may need to step in, then bow out at that time.  But until that comes up, don't worry about it, that can come up in any thread.

But go for less emotional knee-jerk reaction (to Trump), and more reasoned analysis, sure he is a liar, so whatofit?  When lies are transparent (are they even lies when nobody is possibly fooled?), it is more important to know the how and the why of them.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 05:59
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

no, you can't disqualify yourself, you can stop posting on this thread, but you can't disqualify yourself.
_I_ say so.  :P  :)
I would suggest that if you think the thread is going in a direction where you may need to step in, then bow out at that time.  But until that comes up, don't worry about it, that can come up in any thread.

But go for less emotional knee-jerk reaction (to Trump), and more reasoned analysis, sure he is a liar, so whatofit?  When lies are transparent (are they even lies when nobody is possibly fooled?), it is more important to know the how and the why of them.

I'm sorry franciscosan, I should have realised that I would need your permission. LOL

It's not that I think the thread is going in the wrong direction, it's that I don't want to antagonise Vanuatu who is obviously a Donald Trump supporter.

I don't think my reactions have been knee jerk, I get angry at his continual lies, alternative facts and what I see as misuse of power, by attacking judges etc. I basically agree with some of his policies, like America should decide who enters the country, like his stated aims on the economy and on business. If he concentrated on these instead of lies and false accusations, I wouldn't have anything to grumble about.

I would really like to know what goes in inside his brain, why he acts the way he does. I admit to being old fashioned when it comes to how I believe that people should behave, especially people in positions of power and responsibility.

My avatar is from a British TV Comedy program called "One foot in the Grave", the main character of which is just a grumpy old bugger, and I found it appropriate.




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 21:39
Oh, Vanuatu, oh Vanuatu!  Doesn't Vanuatu's national anthem go like that?  But, don't let the name fool you, no man or woman is an island, and neither is our Vanuatu.

But I think Vanuatu is having fun, she is feisty and enjoying the game, but understand that you might not want to get her mad and ruin her being your PA, but how is she going to learn, or maybe how are you going to learn, if you don't engage?  Me, I already know the Truth with a capital t, I am an enlightened one Saint  even though sometimes it might look like I am an incomplete idiot.  It is just a rouse designed to trick mere mortals into a false sense of complacency.  (I'm a legend in my own mindWink)  

Obviously there are a lot of Donald Trump supporters that will have a falling out with their hero, we know that because at the beginning there were a lot of Bill Clinton supporters, and George W Bush supporters, and Barack Obama supporters that became disenchanted with them.  So the fact that Vanuatu is a Trump supporter in general, doesn't mean that she agrees with everything he does, and she may come to believe that the glass is half empty rather than half full.  If you want to help her and others have a more sophisticated view of Trump, then you have to use a scalpel rather than a mallet, you need to target particular aspects and critique them showing the flaws, of course, you don't "need" that,  you only need that if you are going to win over anyone.  You can still voice frustration, and maybe you have a point at that, but I think you should approach it will a more positive, constructive angle.  There is a lot of frustration about President Trump, but all you will be doing is adding to the background murmur, if you can it is better to add a little more light than heat to the situation.


Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 11:32
In regards to the nepotism issue, from what I've seen throughout my life, almost all politicians engage in nepotism, and do all they can to advance the interest of their relatives. It's actually become a hallmark of local government, at least in my own community.  But they do it furtively, indirectly, and try to keep it out of the public view. Trump is doing it openly. It's reprehensible, but it's nothing especially new. If it must be done at all, it might as well be out in the open.

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Dis Aliter Visum
"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 12:22
Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

In regards to the nepotism issue, from what I've seen throughout my life, almost all politicians engage in nepotism, and do all they can to advance the interest of their relatives. It's actually become a hallmark of local government, at least in my own community.  But they do it furtively, indirectly, and try to keep it out of the public view. Trump is doing it openly. It's reprehensible, but it's nothing especially new. If it must be done at all, it might as well be out in the open.

Windemere

I agree. My feeling is that he's thumbing his nose at the electorate, teling it he will do as he pleases, and damn the normal rules and conventions.

But, I didn't mention his name in my post.Wink

Good to hear from you again.


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 14:24
Trump is used to being the top dog via his business experience, and the scale of his business means he has always had a great deal of power and influnce. It seems to me he rather assumed he was going to fulfil the same experience on a political level at the helm of a super-world, and his behaviour gives him away. Of course I'm no expert on American society at all (actually it's largely a mystery to me how it all functions, but that's because I don't know any better), but I do understrand that the American Presidency is not an absolute tyranny or even a post with overriding executive powers. There are checks and balances built into the American system which sensibly limit the potential excesses. Trump has already discovered this. I did think the security services were going to teach him that lesson, it turned out to be the judicial branch of American government instead.

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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 10:33
And now he's been slapped down by the Republican Party, which refused to vote in his favour in relation to the abolition of Obama Care. But, Trump, being Trump, is blaming the Democrats. 

He was sunk by his own party.


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 21:50
OT  _try_ to keep domestic in the other thread, and foreign in this thread.  just a suggestion.  immigration and the international economy really could be either.

Can you be sunk by someone else, when you weren't seaworthy in the first place?  

I'm sure that Ted Cruz, whose father was insulted by Trump, was in the Freedom Caucus.  Of course the freedom caucus had its own reasons for opposing the plan.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 00:28
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

And now he's been slapped down by the Republican Party, which refused to vote in his favour in relation to the abolition of Obama Care. But, Trump, being Trump, is blaming the Democrats. 

He was sunk by his own party.

Well I'm glad that you are back. You ever argue about sports? People get emotional and loud when comes to "their team" then go have a beer and complain about the politician they both dislike.

Franciscosan is right, I enjoy and it's not personal. 




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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2017 at 02:56
One should remember that the House and the Senate were elected too.  They are not there in order to make Donald Trump's agenda, but they have agendas of their own.  They are smart, intellectually and politically.  Nobody is willing to fall on their sword just to satisfy Trump's ego.  I would like to think that maybe Trump learned that politeness counts for something politically.  I would like to, but I doubt it.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2017 at 04:52

THE White House has denied claims US President Donald Trump has taken an extraordinary step to recoup the “vast sums of money” he believes other countries owe the United States.

According to  http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germany-dismisses-white-houses-intimidating-300bn-bill-for-defence-dl7dk629k" rel="nofollow - The Sunday Times , the President handed German Chancellor Angela Merkel a bill for more than $490 billion which he believes his country has been short-changed over military alliance NATO.

The invoice was reportedly presented at the leaders’ meeting last week, in which the President apparently refused to shake Ms Merkel’s hand during a staged photo opportunity.

There used to be a TV ad in Australia for Sun Screen cream. The line was,"It keeps on keeping on."

Reminds me of someone. No names mind you.




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2017 at 12:41
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

One should remember that the House and the Senate were elected too.  They are not there in order to make Donald Trump's agenda, but they have agendas of their own.  They are smart, intellectually and politically.  Nobody is willing to fall on their sword just to satisfy Trump's ego.  I would like to think that maybe Trump learned that politeness counts for something politically.  I would like to, but I doubt it.

One should remember that this is a domestic topic. Smile


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2017 at 13:47
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

THE White House has denied claims US President Donald Trump has taken an extraordinary step to recoup the “vast sums of money” he believes other countries owe the United States.

According to  http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/germany-dismisses-white-houses-intimidating-300bn-bill-for-defence-dl7dk629k" rel="nofollow - The Sunday Times , the President handed German Chancellor Angela Merkel a bill for more than $490 billion which he believes his country has been short-changed over military alliance NATO.

The invoice was reportedly presented at the leaders’ meeting last week, in which the President apparently refused to shake Ms Merkel’s hand during a staged photo opportunity.

There used to be a TV ad in Australia for Sun Screen cream. The line was,"It keeps on keeping on."

Reminds me of someone. No names mind you.



Thanks for posting! I had no idea, I hope we actually collect in USD not Euros Clap


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2017 at 21:51
Do they have herds of cats down in Australia too?  I don't know about the bill presented to Angela Merkel, I am not saying it's not true, it is hard to keep track of all three rings in this circus at the same time.  But if President Trump is presenting bogus bills to other world leaders, then shouldn't I suspect that my tax bill is bogus as well?  Of course, I have to pay my taxes, but in the world of Trump, the delusion that it *ought to be* fair, goes out the window.
Trump probably would like to collect for the Marshall Plan.  It is like the $1 I loaned to Joey in the third grade.  The 'sell by' date is way overdue.
Shady characters in High School would come up to you and say, "do you remember the $20 you borrowed from me two years ago?  You haven't paid me back yet."  But our shady character is the President.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2017 at 14:02
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Do they have herds of cats down in Australia too?  I don't know about the bill presented to Angela Merkel, I am not saying it's not true, it is hard to keep track of all three rings in this circus at the same time.  But if President Trump is presenting bogus bills to other world leaders, then shouldn't I suspect that my tax bill is bogus as well?  Of course, I have to pay my taxes, but in the world of Trump, the delusion that it *ought to be* fair, goes out the window.
Trump probably would like to collect for the Marshall Plan.  It is like the $1 I loaned to Joey in the third grade.  The 'sell by' date is way overdue.
Shady characters in High School would come up to you and say, "do you remember the $20 you borrowed from me two years ago?  You haven't paid me back yet."  But our shady character is the President.

I don't think it's true anymore than I believe that he refused to shake hands with A. Merkel.

Ever ask yourself why so many world leaders did -nothing- about the impending migrant/refugee crisis?

A conspiracy minded friend of mine (no it isn't me) believes that every muslim waits for the 'call' to walk away from the convenience store and start in on a massive jihad against all westerners and assimilated muslims.
Maybe that's when muslims plan on collecting from the great satan.


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 28 Mar 2017 at 23:19

They did not "do nothing," what they did may have not been effective.  Or what they did may have been effective for different parts of issue.  And that in itself is a big question, how did one define or frame the issue?

Well if every muslim is going to wage jihad on all westerns and assimilated muslims, how exactly does that work?  Are assimilated muslims going on jihad against themselves?  I have heard of coupon fraud being done by muslims at convenience stores, maybe that is what they are collecting.  It would seem to be a case where crime pays, but just not very well.

I think that it was DH Lawrence that said that every Arab has a tribe.  I think that a lot of the problems that people associate with Islam and militancy, is more a matter of tribalism (often extended to the greater group).  If someone is in your tribe, they are right in your eyes, and cannot do wrong, and those who might oppose them are wrong and the curse of the Earth.  The United States has had a long history of rule of law.  President Trump seems to want to reverse that, "my country, right or wrong."  (But, right of course, because such an attitude does not allow for the existence of wrong, at least not on "our side of the fence."  Trump seems to want to start an American tribe.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2017 at 02:06
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


They did not "do nothing," what they did may have not been effective.  Or what they did may have been effective for different parts of issue.  And that in itself is a big question, how did one define or frame the issue?
Actually a great number of European states did exactly nothing. Germany and Sweden made it easier for European states to avoid agreements made at the EU level, regarding the number of refugees that each state would accept. 
Sweden and Germany's one time policy allowing all asylum seekers entry forced refugee camps in Turkey,  Macedonia and Greece (who were being subsidized)  to overflow because word was spread about the social services available in the UK and other countries who were accepting all refugees (2015). Of course it's very complicated but there was a comprehensive plan by August of 2015 from the EU that would have ensured a more humane and ordered diaspora. Now money pledged by the US and other countries is not being released to camps in Turkey because of political unrest. Turkey is absorbing refugee flows from Africa, Afganistan, Iraq, Syria, Palestine.. 



Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Well if every muslim is going to wage jihad on all westerns and assimilated muslims, how exactly does that work?  Are assimilated muslims going on jihad against themselves?
Well, is a jihadist and an assimilated muslim the same thing? In a way I suppose it is a suicide.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have heard of coupon fraud being done by muslims at convenience stores, maybe that is what they are collecting.  It would seem to be a case where crime pays, but just not very well.
Crime does pay. Those convenience store clerks rack up 10% of the best scratch ticket payoffs.


Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that it was DH Lawrence that said that every Arab has a tribe.  I think that a lot of the problems that people associate with Islam and militancy, is more a matter of tribalism (often extended to the greater group).  If someone is in your tribe, they are right in your eyes, and cannot do wrong, and those who might oppose them are wrong and the curse of the Earth.  The United States has had a long history of rule of law.  President Trump seems to want to reverse that, "my country, right or wrong."  (But, right of course, because such an attitude does not allow for the existence of wrong, at least not on "our side of the fence."  Trump seems to want to start an American tribe.
Rule of Law is the highest value of the EU, coincidentally. But slogans don't insure justice. Merkel did not discuss her refugee policy with the EU council. Why should a state in the US or France for that matter, accept 5000 refugees when they have a 5% unemployment rate and huge demands on the public assistance services already ? 
Trumps seems to want to maintain quality of life in the US. 


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 05:07
Vanuatu
Quote One should remember that this is a domestic topic. Smile

Nope, this is a foreign policy topic.

And, Donny, Donny, Donny, what have you done. You authorised a missile strike  against Syrian forces for using Biological Weapons. Good Stuff.
You've upset Putin. No so bad stuff.
Your missile strikes resulted in civilian deaths. Real Bad stuff.

I've posted in the past, that the only way to combat ISIS and rogue governments is to, unfortunately, put boots on the ground, and every righteous thinking government should help. In the realms of fairy tale, the UN might even get motivated to do something.

Missiles and bombs are all very well as long as you're delivering, not receiving. Ground troops have a better situational awareness, in real time, and therefore are in a position to minimise collateral damage, at the same time winning hearts and minds.

But, Donny, a start in the right direction, show these people that the USA is not to be messed with.






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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 05:14
But, following on from that, President Trump has indicated that the USA is prepared to act against Pyong Yang if the missile tests continue. Again, good stuff.

Caution: Beijing has indicted some concern over US intervention in North Korea, and could more than likely line up on North Koreas side, unless the US treads warily.

It's been mentioned that China is in the best position to tame North Korea, but, again there  complications. North Korea is backed, plainly, by Russia.

A US led action against North Korea and Russia, with China as an ally is not likely.

A tripartite move against North Korea is not likely, so what is the answer?

Perhaps US intervention by shooting down the NK Missiles and not causing collateral damage, would send a warning.




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2017 at 02:11
I don't have the perspective to know what all the ramifications are from the US cruise missile attack against the airbase from which Syria launched its gas attack against rebels.  Did President Trump do it as a warning against Assad, or was he showing that he wasn't a pawn of Russia, or was he just flexing his muscle on the homefront, showing that he was not President Obama.  Some (Republican) senators who wouldn't support Obama, supported Trump.  On the other hand, Obama wanted the Senate to do a declaration of war before he did anything.  One thing though, in the campaign Trump said he would raise support for the military, and not resort to the military as much.  It does not work that way.  If you have a tool in the toolbox, you tend to want to use it.  If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

There is no easy answer to North Korea.  "Act against" is a great phrase, but what it would actually mean is another question.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2017 at 09:52
franciscosan

Russia has responded to the US Missile attack by sending one of it's modern warships into the Mediterranean.

Russia is warning that the USA is one step away from provoking a war, as it, Russia, will defend Assad's administration.

Somehow, I don't think that President Trump will back down. Meanwhile the UN is tutt-tutting over the use of Nerve Gas.

I think you will know that, basically, I don't like Trump, but I support his stance in this incidence, and if that provokes a new Cold War, well, so be it.

It could well be that, in the not too distant future, the US Military could find itself very busy with the Syrian problem, as well as dealing with Kim Jong Un.



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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2017 at 10:32
Update:

The USS Carl Vinson Strike Force has been sent to the area of the Korean Peninsula in an attempt to deter any further North Korean missile Tests.



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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 00:35
I think the administration has done what it intended to do (a proportional response), and is not currently looking for more.  I tend to agree that either Russia was incompetent or complicit in allowing Assad to keep WMDs (weapons of mass destruction)=nerve gas.  But, I don't necessarily expect anything better from Russia.

We can't guarantee that any strike on North Korea's missile/nuclear facilities will be 100% successful.  It is spread out and dug in.  Which means a retaliatory strike on South Korea or Japan, might be the result of an American strike.  Like I said, no good options.  But what we can do, is cheer! and say, "hurray for our side!"


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 04:58
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't have the perspective to know what all the ramifications are from the US cruise missile attack against the airbase from which Syria launched its gas attack against rebels.  Did President Trump do it as a warning against Assad, or was he showing that he wasn't a pawn of Russia, or was he just flexing his muscle on the homefront, showing that he was not President Obama.  Some (Republican) senators who wouldn't support Obama, supported Trump.  On the other hand, Obama wanted the Senate to do a declaration of war before he did anything.  One thing though, in the campaign Trump said he would raise support for the military, and not resort to the military as much.  It does not work that way.  If you have a tool in the toolbox, you tend to want to use it.  If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

There is no easy answer to North Korea.  "Act against" is a great phrase, but what it would actually mean is another question.


Trump is saying -give us a reason like using nerve gas on civilians and US will interfere big league.
US told Russia what was about to happen. Putin has to posture for homeland pride, Putin isn't going to defend nerve gas. Putin offered Obama a way out of the Red Line warning by confiscating chemical weapons. He then proceeded to resupply the Assad regime.

Why is significant that some R who are supporting Trump didn't support Obama? Ever hear President Sisi of Egypt or King Abdullah of Jordan say that have trust in Obama? 

Was that before or after the Red Line warning?
 
China could make Kim Jong Un disappear, find a hardliner pro China replacement who doesn't threaten the world constantly. China won't stand for a democratic Korean peninsula.


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2017 at 23:03
China does not want to get involved anymore than it has to, can you say refugees streaming over the border into China?  

I believe that President Obama wanted a Declaration of War from Congress, before doing anything.  President Trump did not require anything that far reaching, that may be the reason why some congressmen supported Trump, while they did not support Obama.  Of course, having pulled out of Iraq and substantially withdrawn from Afghanistan, Obama was more open to criticism if he got the US involved in Syria, an interesting question is whether he ever asked for a Declaration with an expectation of getting it, or was it a matter of him saying, "he tried, but didn't get the support."

The US and Russia have substantial conventional forces, so we don't ever have to worry about using WMDs in a regular conflict.  WMDs (weapons of Mass Destruction), are a poor man's equalizer, or attempt at an equalizer.  I don't think President Vladimir Putin particularly minds if an ally uses them, as long as they don't use them on someone who "counts."  Look at Stalin, if a tyrant can't kill off his own population, well then he is not much of a tyrant is he?  Putin must consider it par for the course.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2017 at 06:31
Looks like old DJT pulled a swifty on Kim Jong Un.

It was widely publicised that a US Battle Group with the USS Carl Vinson in the lead, was steaming to the Korean Peninsula, with the obvious intent of stopping any more NK nuclear missile tests.

Predictably, Kim reacted with all sorts of threats of retaliation, and it seems that he was preparing for US intervention. He had his knickers in a real twist.

But, the Carl Vinson Battle Group was 5000 odd miles from the Korean Peninsula, and making no moves north. It was engaged in training exercises with the Australian Navy, off Sumatra.

Well done Donald.



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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2017 at 16:34
Agree. And I have to wonder if the news of Navy movements weren't hand fed to overzealous reporters as a 'leak' meant to be kept quiet. 

Then the Orange One can truly be said to run circles around the press. Have to admit toyomotor, the man knows the medium.


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2017 at 02:49
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Agree. And I have to wonder if the news of Navy movements weren't hand fed to overzealous reporters as a 'leak' meant to be kept quiet. 

Then the Orange One can truly be said to run circles around the press. Have to admit toyomotor, the man knows the medium.

But todays media reports that it was a "muck up" that the President simply "lost track" of where the battle Group was. Sounds possible, but I prefer to believe that he bluffed North Korea, and if I'm correct, good on him!

Perhaps I could grow to like this guy, but don't hold your breath just yet.Wink


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2017 at 23:58
He says one thing, and does another, sounds like incontinence to me.
But don't worry he will spin it to his advantage, it is all a grand plan
to destabilize the regime, question is whose regime is more destabilized.
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then maybe you can baffle 
them with bull.  We are trying to get North Korea to be more stable, 
and less erratic.  _If_ it was a bluff, does such a bluff help the situation,
or does it just make it worse, next time we do deal with North Korea?


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 02:43
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

If_ it was a bluff, does such a bluff help the situation,
or does it just make it worse, next time we do deal with North Korea?

Do a deal with North Korea, you're joking. The US is the driving force for more sanctions against North Korea.

I don't see any deals on the horizon.


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 03:29
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

He says one thing, and does another, sounds like incontinence to me.
Sounds like the last administration. Can you say Red line?

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

But don't worry he will spin it to his advantage, it is all a grand plan
to destabilize the regime, question is whose regime is more destabilized.
He should spin to the advantage of the US and allies. If it's truly a grand plan then no need to worry. although I admit it's a real nail biter.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then maybe you can baffle 
them with bull.
Like democrat bull? Bill Clinton and Obama put these father/son loons in bed with a uranium pacifier. And Hillaroid Clinton Sec of State followed a ground breaking policy of 'strategic patience' how very brave.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 We are trying to get North Korea to be more stable, 
and less erratic.  _If_ it was a bluff, does such a bluff help the situation,
or does it just make it worse, next time we do deal with North Korea?
It's never gotten better with NoKo in my lifetime, yours? Are you worried that a bluff is going to make KJU like us less?
Less erratic? Already have regularly timed missile tests. What is stability for NoKo?


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 03:41
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

If_ it was a bluff, does such a bluff help the situation,
or does it just make it worse, next time we do deal with North Korea?

Do a deal with North Korea, you're joking. The US is the driving force for more sanctions against North Korea.

I don't see any deals on the horizon.

Agree, don't expect this president to pander to fear mongers who threaten the world on a near daily basis.

If I were China knowing that the peninsula serves a purpose as buffer (described here many times) then I would have a glove on that buffer in case it ever needed to go away quickly. China could put KJU to sleep if it became conducive to their long term plans to do so.


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 21:33
"dealing with" is a process.
"doing a deal" is a conclusion.

We _are_ "dealing" with North Korea, if I find a robber in my house and hit him with a stick, that is "dealing" with him in a particular fashion.  There are better ways of "dealing with" someone, and there are worse ways of dealing with him.  And part of dealing with someone is how to do so in a way that will elicit a favorable response.  Not only from the person being dealt with, but also from others.

The "normal" for North Korea is pretty messed up.  But, believing it cannot get worse, because it is pretty messed up already, is an illusion.  North Korea could easily ruin South Korea, Taiwan, Japan.  If they used VX on the guy in Malaysia, (cousin of Kim Jong Un?), then that means that they have chemical weapons.  Of course, we have known that for awhile, because we have had refugees reporting that they tested them on dissidents.

It seems to me that North Korea is operating under a theory of Mutually Assured Destruction.  Only problem is North Korea is already a little suicidal, and self-destructive.  Really, there mode of operating is "'prop us up' or we will take you down with us, if we go down." 

It is North Korea's and Kim Jong Un's wet dream to go down in a blaze of glory against the US, I am in no hurry to make their apocalyptic fantasies come true.  Now there may be a place where we feel we cannot afford to kick the can down the road any further, but having a second erratic (Donald Trump) to be the one to say when we should deal with the first erratic (Kim Jong Un), is not that appealing, although maybe it takes a nut to understand a nut and deal with him.  If that is your argument, then please make it.

I don't understand, Vanuatu, why when we talk about Trump, you always think we are talking about Clinton (Mr. or Mrs.) or Obama.  The Clintons and Obama are past tense, Donald Trump is future tense.  Why are you obsessing about Clinton and Obama so much?  Nothing much happened on North Korea in the Clinton, Bush, Obama White Houses, in fact nothing much has happened (positive or negative) since the Korean War, which technically is still happening since there never was a formal end to it.  


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 04:54
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

"dealing with" is a process.
"doing a deal" is a conclusion.

We _are_ "dealing" with North Korea, if I find a robber in my house and hit him with a stick, that is "dealing" with him in a particular fashion.  There are better ways of "dealing with" someone, and there are worse ways of dealing with him.  And part of dealing with someone is how to do so in a way that will elicit a favorable response.  Not only from the person being dealt with, but also from others.

The "normal" for North Korea is pretty messed up.  But, believing it cannot get worse, because it is pretty messed up already, is an illusion.  North Korea could easily ruin South Korea, Taiwan, Japan.  If they used VX on the guy in Malaysia, (cousin of Kim Jong Un?), then that means that they have chemical weapons.  Of course, we have known that for awhile, because we have had refugees reporting that they tested them on dissidents.

It seems to me that North Korea is operating under a theory of Mutually Assured Destruction.  Only problem is North Korea is already a little suicidal, and self-destructive.  Really, there mode of operating is "'prop us up' or we will take you down with us, if we go down." 

It is North Korea's and Kim Jong Un's wet dream to go down in a blaze of glory against the US, I am in no hurry to make their apocalyptic fantasies come true.  Now there may be a place where we feel we cannot afford to kick the can down the road any further, but having a second erratic (Donald Trump) to be the one to say when we should deal with the first erratic (Kim Jong Un), is not that appealing, although maybe it takes a nut to understand a nut and deal with him.  If that is your argument, then please make it.

I don't understand, Vanuatu, why when we talk about Trump, you always think we are talking about Clinton (Mr. or Mrs.) or Obama.  The Clintons and Obama are past tense, Donald Trump is future tense.  Why are you obsessing about Clinton and Obama so much?  Nothing much happened on North Korea in the Clinton, Bush, Obama White Houses, in fact nothing much has happened (positive or negative) since the Korean War, which technically is still happening since there never was a formal end to it.  

Most of the press in this country is in collusion with the democratic national party. Obama and his minions are working against the current president. Unprecedented behavior by an ex-president. Obozo has a target on him.

Clinton and Obama are very much a part of the NoKo story since they achieved nuclear status under Bill Clinton and were tolerated and enabled by the Obama administration. 

Factions of these two administrations are undermining this presidency on a daily basis through the liberal media. And for my money that makes them part of the story. You are well aware of the divide in this country, no where is it more apparent than in the liberal media. To say "nothing much happened on North Korea" is to admit the feckless policies of the Clinton/Obama administrations who slept through a growing threat to the world. 

Now Trump is a "nut" because he wants to deal with the fat kid? NoKo's sign agreements only to have the pleasure of breaking them just as the Iranians do.

Chronology of US-North Korea Nuclear and Missile Diplomacy

http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron" rel="nofollow - http://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 07:37
And just think, if back in 1951 the UN forces has kept pushing northwards we wouldn't have this problem today.

It's also possible that China may not have been the force it now is, with US forces camped on it's borders.


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 20:59
D---! how clever of Barack Obama!  Going waterskiing in the Caribbean.  How diabolical!  The press is _not_ in league with the democrats, choosing the democrats would require them to be _conscious_ of their attitude, and really, they are not _conscious_ of their behavior.  It is more like a reflex action, for the 'liberal' press there is the mass of "ordinary" people, which includes people like Leon Trotsky, and then there are those "right wing radicals."  It is not that the press is "pro-liberal" and "anti-conservative," they perceive it as 'pro-normal' and anti-radical (right).

Well, toyomotor, you are right, if we had pushed beyond the Yalu River, we wouldn't be having this problem today, we would be having problems from going to war with China, and Russia probably would have joined in (despite historical animosities) on China's side.  I don't think that Russia had gotten the A-Bomb yet (?), [actually, Soviet Union detonated its first nuke in 1949] so 'all' we would have to worry about is a million-zillion screaming Chinese, and maybe a million Russians, and a militant North Korea.  We would be fighting with surplus WWII equipment, whereas Russia had gone on to develop, for example, the AK-47 (Kalashnikov assault rifle, developed in 1947).
We never declared war on China during the Korean War, but considered the Chinese forces in North Korea, "volunteers."  Declaring war on China would have opened up a whole new can of worms.  

Do you know the story of how the Korean War became a UN police action?  Remember that the US and ANZUS and NATO were not the only ones involved on the South Korean side.  That would probably not happen "next" time.

Of course, we should say that we are still, albeit rather elliptically, talking about Donald Trump, because no man is an island, and events do not happen in a vacuum, etc.... 


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 26 Apr 2017 at 21:06
btw, remember that 1951 was 6 or 7 years after WWII, so armies were not necessarily demobilized, a lot of soldiers were combat veterans, and China had just gone through a civil war (and full of revolutionary fervor).  Remember that we were still worried about Europe and the Soviet Union's desire to dominate it.

The western democracies had fatigue from WWII to a great extent, whereas tyrannies use fear and ambition to push their soldiers through the fatigue.
 
If the US had fully committed to North Korea, Soviet Union probably would have attacked and conquered Europe.  Preventing that, we would probably would have had to use at least, tactical nuclear weapons ('backpack' bombs).  inviting escalation.....

Again, 
US have the 2nd biggest military; 
 NK the 4th; 
 China the 1st; 
 SK the 6th or 7th; 
 Russia the 5th; 
 [[India the 3rd]]


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2017 at 03:14
I guess we'll never know.

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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 27 Apr 2017 at 21:17
That is also a "problem" with elections.  You don't necessarily know what would have happened, if a different path had been taken.  But people have intellect and imagination, which means we can speculate, and for some humans not only can we speculate, but we feel a need to do so, and cannot help but to do so, even if it is useless.  

If Hillary had won, etc, etc. (yada, yada, yada)

English and other Indo-European languages have the subjunctive.  "If I had gone to the store, I would have bought a candy-bar."  A speaker of Vietnamese, for example, would probably not make this statement, and would find it confusing.  They would say, "but I didn't go to the store (and by implication, I don't know if I would have bought a candy-bar)?!?  There is an advantage to that failure to grasp the subjunctive, they don't continue "beating a dead horse," but seek to get on with things.  Instead of dwelling on how things may have gone otherwise, they apply themselves to their current situation, and work to better themselves.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 01:06
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

D---! how clever of Barack Obama!  Going waterskiing in the Caribbean.  How diabolical!  The press is _not_ in league with the democrats, choosing the democrats would require them to be _conscious_ of their attitude, and really, they are not _conscious_ of their behavior.
Gone but not forgotten. Obama's whole life has been about others doing his bidding. Why do you think Valerie Jarret moved in??
You have no way of knowing the conscious awareness of other people. Democrats persistently beat the anti-Trump drum and it's not because they are in trance.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 It is more like a reflex action, for the 'liberal' press there is the mass of "ordinary" people, which includes people like Leon Trotsky, and then there are those "right wing radicals."  It is not that the press is "pro-liberal" and "anti-conservative," they perceive it as 'pro-normal' and anti-radical (right).
Again pro-normal? Who are you to say? Do normal people complain about global warming while leaving the largest carbon footprint possible, the democratic strongholds of the country are the worst polluters yet they cry about trees. You buy that nonsense? Pfffft

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 Well, toyomotor, you are right, if we had pushed beyond the Yalu River, we wouldn't be having this problem today, we would be having problems from going to war with China, and Russia probably would have joined in (despite historical animosities) on China's side.  I don't think that Russia had gotten the A-Bomb yet (?), [actually, Soviet Union detonated its first nuke in 1949] so 'all' we would have to worry about is a million-zillion screaming Chinese, and maybe a million Russians, and a militant North Korea.  We would be fighting with surplus WWII equipment, whereas Russia had gone on to develop, for example, the AK-47 (Kalashnikov assault rifle, developed in 1947).
We never declared war on China during the Korean War, but considered the Chinese forces in North Korea, "volunteers."  Declaring war on China would have opened up a whole new can of worms.  
Oh so NoKo's are different from Vietnamese? In their case you can tell us what would have happened?

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Do you know the story of how the Korean War became a UN police action?  Remember that the US and ANZUS and NATO were not the only ones involved on the South Korean side.  That would probably not happen "next" time.

Of course, we should say that we are still, albeit rather elliptically, talking about Donald Trump, because no man is an island, and events do not happen in a vacuum, etc.... 
And how do any political commentators find anything at all to say if they do not compare administrations?


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 02:07
We learn by comparing and contrasting.  But there must be some 'thing' to compare and contrast, and unless we treat that thing as a thing (something separate, that we don't quite understand), instead of as an extension of our own beliefs, concerns, whims, we will fail to understand.

There is a limitation of compare or contrast.  If we are too close, we won't be able to get perspective.  In general, we are too close to Obama or Hillary Clinton, over time history will give us distance, a better perspective.  But Obama has put his mark on the United States, and I think that it is a folly thinking that we could erase it.  Nor is everything about him bad, like all Presidents, he is a mixed bag.

President Obama (and Hillary) were pretty mediocre on foreign policy.  You have to have content, to make a comparison or contrast, and I don't really see that much content.  Then again, I don't see much content on Donald Trump's foreign agenda either, just a lot of personal whims.  So maybe you're right, we can compare nothing to nothing....Clap


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 03:20
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

We learn by comparing and contrasting.  But there must be some 'thing' to compare and contrast, and unless we treat that thing as a thing (something separate, that we don't quite understand), instead of as an extension of our own beliefs, concerns, whims, we will fail to understand.
If "we" means the american public then we have much contrast in Trump's stated policy to Obama's. 92% of americans would vote Trump again, actually securin the poular vote if elections were held today. 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/04/23/trump-voters-dont-have-buyers-remorse-but-some-hillary-clinton-voters-do/?utm_term=.e6abc7ec25b9" rel="nofollow - http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/04/23/trump-voters-dont-have-buyers-remorse-but-some-hillary-clinton-voters-do/?utm_term=.e6abc7ec25b9

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

There is a limitation of compare or contrast.  If we are too close, we won't be able to get perspective.  In general, we are too close to Obama or Hillary Clinton, over time history will give us distance, a better perspective.  But Obama has put his mark on the United States, and I think that it is a folly thinking that we could erase it.  Nor is everything about him bad, like all Presidents, he is a mixed bag.
Sorry , you will have to demonstrate which part of Obama administration didn't suck.


Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

President Obama (and Hillary) were pretty mediocre on foreign policy.  You have to have content, to make a comparison or contrast, and I don't really see that much content.  Then again, I don't see much content on Donald Trump's foreign agenda either, just a lot of personal whims.  So maybe you're right, we can compare nothing to nothing....Clap
Obama had 8 years+ but democrats & RHINO's have already pegged Trump as a loser and continue to spin his presidency as such. If you don't see the contrast then it may be time for new rose colored glasses. I guess you are OK with Obama's anointed miscreants destroying opportunity for free speech.
http://BERKELEY,%20Calif.%20—%20Ann%20Coulter’s%20speech%20at%20the%20University%20of%20California%20at%20Berkeley%20was%20canceled.%20But%20the%20debate%20and%20hostility%20that%20were%20unleashed%20by%20the%20controversy%20over%20the%20conservative%20commentator’s%20planned%20event%20continued%20here%20Thursday.%20%20Demonstrators%20who%20participated%20in%20other%20recent%20violent%20clashes%20on%20Berkeley’s%20streets%20began%20gathering%20at%20a%20city%20park%20and%20on%20campus%20Thursday%20to%20fight%20for%20free%20speech%20or%20to%20protest%20hate%20speech.%20Many%20were%20geared%20up%20—%20with%20helmets,%20shields%20and%20padding%20—%20for%20a%20confrontation%20at%20the%20park,%20just%20blocks%20from%20the%20campus%20and%20Berkeley%20High%20School.%20And%20the%20possibility%20of%20violence%20caused%20authorities%20to%20turn%20out%20in%20force.%20%20But%20the%20conservative%20and%20liberal%20activists%20mostly%20spent%20the%20afternoon%20shouting%20at%20one%20another,%20physically%20divided%20by%20a%20police%20line%20on%20opposite%20sides%20of%20the%20street.%20%20By%201%20p.m.,%20university%20officials%20announced%20that%20two%20arrests%20had%20been%20made%20by%20campus%20police:%20One%20person%20was%20arrested%20for%20allegedly%20carrying%20a%20knife%20on%20campus,%20and%20the%20other%20was%20charged%20with%20violations%20including%20“delaying%20or%20obstructing%20a%20police%20officer%20in%20the%20course%20of%20duty,%20false%20identification%20to%20a%20police%20officer%20and%20wearing%20a%20mask%20to%20evade%20police.”" rel="nofollow - http://BERKELEY, Calif. — Ann Coulter’s speech at the University of California at Berkeley was canceled. But the debate and hostility that were unleashed by the controversy over the conservative commentator’s planned event continued here Thursday. Demonstrators who participated in other recent violent clashes on Berkeley’s streets began gathering at a city park and on campus Thursday to fight for free speech or to protest hate speech. Many were geared up — with helmets, shields and padding — for a confrontation at the park, just blocks from the campus and Berkeley High School. And the possibility of violence caused authorities to turn out in force. But the conservative and liberal activists mostly spent the afternoon shouting at one another, physically divided by a police line on opposite sides of the street. By 1 p.m., university officials announced that two arrests had been made by campus police: One person was arrested for allegedly carrying a knife on campus, and the other was charged with violations including “delaying or obstructing a police officer in the course of duty, false identification to a police officer and wearing a mask to evade police.”

What a bunch of free thinkers. 


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 05:52
Who trusts Opinion Polls?

Not me.

Just think about all of those other polls that are allegedly taken-the percentage of people with cancer, brain injury, this disease, that disease and so on.

As one politician said in the lead up to the Australian Federal Elections, the only reliable poll is that taken on Election Day in the form of votes.

I keep reading about DJR's first 100 days in office...no it was only 86, he spent the rest playing golf. Many US commentators still decry his leadership, policies and speeches. They question precisely what he's achieved so far, and point out what he hasn't done.

How about, "Three small Words?" Were they, "Lock Her Up?" If so, he hasn't.
His wall, isn't.
His nepotism, is.
His taxation moves are blatant self interest.

But I don't need to go on, do I?




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 28 Apr 2017 at 14:35
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Who trusts Opinion Polls?

Not me.
You mean not anymore, see 25+ pages of fake news that you stated as fact.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Just think about all of those other polls that are allegedly taken-the percentage of people with cancer, brain injury, this disease, that disease and so on.

As one politician said in the lead up to the Australian Federal Elections, the only reliable poll is that taken on Election Day in the form of votes.
So glad that you have come around. In Trump's case our liberal media has searched in vain for unhappy Trump voters so they can put them on TeeVee. So they tried polling and got a real shocker! 
Not the kind Ike gave Tina

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I keep reading about DJR's first 100 days in office...no it was only 86, he spent the rest playing golf. Many US commentators still decry his leadership, policies and speeches. They question precisely what he's achieved so far, and point out what he hasn't done.
It took Obama (here we go franciscosan) 18 months to get a vote on the Affordable Care Act and he had most media shoving in our face daily. I never heard you wonder about what Obama didn't do. Please list all of his accomplishments. Or any.

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

How about, "Three small Words?" Were they, "Lock Her Up?" If so, he hasn't.
His wall, isn't.
His nepotism, is.
His taxation moves are blatant self interest.

But I don't need to go on, do I?


He got his base riled up and he got elected. How do you know what is being investigated? We are now starting to hear about Obama's micromanagement of the military's rules of engagement and many people are dead because of it. Just wait more to come. Soldiers abandoned by high command.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/will-trump-change-deadly-rules-of-engagement?f=must_reads" rel="nofollow - http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/will-trump-change-deadly-rules-of-engagement?f=must_reads

toyomotor expected the wall to be built already? Tell him we like to plan before execution.

As far as the fattest Teletubbie- Hillary, No one here cares or would be surprised if she ends up in prison. I don't wake and think about her. She's irrelevant now but she wasn't as a candidate. Tax reform remains to be seen maybe 200 hundred days? Be generous. 


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 06:36
Vanuatu wrote
Quote  You mean not anymore, see 25+ pages of fake news that you stated as fact.

Yes, but they were alternative facts.  Wink





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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2017 at 22:45
See, I think you, Toyomotor, are making a mistake in your assumption that Candidate Trump, during the campaign, was making (logical) statements that had the quality of being either true or false.  I see it more as a matter of verbal diarrhea spewing forth uncontrollably, and his adulating fans, ecstatic, bathing in the waves.
It is hard to resist telling people what they want to hear, instead of what they should hear, but Donald Trump has no resistance whatsoever.  What he says is dictated by what his base wants to hear, even though it means a fundamental change in, say, healthcare (Trump formerly favored a single payer system), or gun control.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 01:59
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

See, I think you, Toyomotor, are making a mistake in your assumption that Candidate Trump, during the campaign, was making (logical) statements that had the quality of being either true or false.  I see it more as a matter of verbal diarrhea spewing forth uncontrollably, and his adulating fans, ecstatic, bathing in the waves.
It is hard to resist telling people what they want to hear, instead of what they should hear, but Donald Trump has no resistance whatsoever.  What he says is dictated by what his base wants to hear, even though it means a fundamental change in, say, healthcare (Trump formerly favored a single payer system), or gun control.

That's "toyomotor"-small "t".

And no, I don't think I made a mistake, I took some of his comments as pure, illogical rubbish, appealing to a jaded electorate fed up with decades of hearing the same ol' same ol'. There's no secret that I don't hold the President in high regard, although I do applaud some of his policies.

That so many voters liked what he had to say is a condemnation on the system, which needs to be looked at closely and urgent action taken to clean up what is, IMHO, a most corrupt system in almost every way. This could be the subject of another thread if you wish.




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 04:03
He's right franciscosan, this was America voting against the establishment. 

And you are right bc Trump had the attitude that struck a chord he could have recited poetry and been applauded for being a great politician. Smile
 


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 08:33
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

He's right franciscosan, this was America voting against the establishment. 

And you are right bc Trump had the attitude that struck a chord he could have recited poetry and been applauded for being a great politician. Smile
 

Or sang three choruses of "Green Sleeves". Wink

Years ago, a politician named Don CHIPP broke away from the well established Liberal Party to form a new party, The Democrats. His stated aim was to,"Keep the Bastards Honest." Whether or not he was successful depends on who you ask, but the party is now defunct.

Australian voters, too, are getting fed up with the same 'ol same 'ol and are looking for alternatives. But, imo, there seems to be none on the horizon.

In the Senate, where government legislation can succeed or fail, there is a core of independently minded senators who are, to a fair degree, "Keeping the Bastards Honest." One of the notables among this group is a single mother, ex-Australian Army Corporal (illustrates that anyone can aspire to high political office in Australia-without vast sums of money).

Our current Prime Minister, like the US President, is a self made multi-millionaire, but not at all flamboyant unlike DJT.

Looks like we limp along for another few years, unless of course there is a second coming.




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 May 2017 at 07:02
Apparently the President of The United States of America has said that he'd be honoured to meet Kim Jong Un if the circumstances were right.

Like if the USA had just bombed the living hell out of Pyong Yang?Wink

But is Mr Trump trying to inject some diplomacy into his rhetoric-finally?

I don't know, but I don't see KJU reacting favourably, do you?


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 03 May 2017 at 03:21
I think that former President Jimmy Carter, and evangelical Billy Graham(?) met with Kim Jong Il, so I think a personal contact between President Trump and Kim Jong Un would flatter his ego.  On the other hand, with the evangelical and Jimmy Carter, it wasn't a direct connection to the power, but rather someone who could cut through the red tape.  Giving Kim Jong Un direct contact with the President might not be the best idea.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 May 2017 at 05:41
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that former President Jimmy Carter, and evangelical Billy Graham(?) met with Kim Jong Il, so I think a personal contact between President Trump and Kim Jong Un would flatter his ego.  On the other hand, with the evangelical and Jimmy Carter, it wasn't a direct connection to the power, but rather someone who could cut through the red tape.  Giving Kim Jong Un direct contact with the President might not be the best idea.

Basically, I agree. The only potential benefit I see in a face to face is that the Fat Kid might see that President Trump is deadly serious, and might have the brains to pull his head in.

On the other hand.......


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 02:07
Reading Krauthammer, it sound like the Paris Accord was rather weak anyways.  Pulling out of it was symbolic, on both sides of the fence.  Of course the way President Trump pulled out of it, was less than graceful.  Not that he cares, he seems to delight in provoking others, and then whines when they lash back.  But the Paris Accord would have been rather ineffective, something that is missed by Trump critics waiting for the next thing to get worked up about.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 13 Jun 2017 at 22:15
Donald Trump is a horrid person, but being horrid is not a crime, one should look at and contemplate his actions.  There was an Islamic woman from Canada that pointed out that the countries in the travel ban were all failed states and swimming in Chaos, and so she thought that Trump had every right to ban nationals from those countries.  Now it is not so much from these places that terrorists come from.  Most terrorists come from Saudi Arabia, the heart of radical Islam.  So maybe Trump's given reasons are not necessarily the reasons he does stuff, which means there might be more method to his madness than first appears, but at the same time a complete lack of the transparency that we assume should be in a democratic nation.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 05:46
franciscosan

You have chided me in the past for disrespectfully referring to various people by their surnames or by nicknames. Please let me assure you the insults were deliberate. 

As for your President, it seems now that he is getting closer than ever to impeachment with the latest news that he is contemplating sacking the Special Investigator who was appointed to look into the so called Russian Affair. I don't think even a complacent Congress would take that laying down, do you? 




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2017 at 21:45
I know its deliberate, I just question whether it is effective.  I would prefer your criticism to have more substance and content, because that is what would help others to construct their own arguments, and that is what would convince others that might be on the other side of the issue.  Name calling might feel good, and might play well with the home team, but it is not going to convince people who disagree, it is probably not even going to convince people that are sitting on the fence.  Now it might feed into the mass of people and effect their opinion, but feeding the masses and appealing to the tyranny of the majority works against rational discourse, and thus is often ugly and uncontrollable. 

But don't worry, nobody is going to compare _your_ name calling to _Trump's_ calling his opponent, "crooked Hillary."Wink

I don't think congress is complacent.  I don't know about whether Trump is looking to fire the investigation into colllusion with the Russians, but I will look for that in the news so I might comment on it more intelligently.  But, no it is not a question of congress being complacent, nor is it a question of them taking it laying down, as you put it.  It is a question of if or when matters reach a critical mass, and the White House (figuratively speaking) implodes.  But beware of Schadenfreude and 'Freudenschade.'


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 02:55
You miss my point. I'm certainly NOT saying that Congress is complacent, I'm saying that if Congress were complacent, it would still be unlikely to take interference such as that suggested without acting. I see in todays media that talk now is of criminal action for Perverting the Course of Justice, which, under Australian Law, could have been sustained when he fired Coney.

If Mr Trump takes such pre-emptive action as to fire the Special Investigator, by whatever means he uses, it would almost be a lay down misere of his guilt and I would think that Congress would have no alternative but to impeach him. I note that, according to the media report, it is not usual for a sitting President to be charged with criminal offences, but the evidence referred to Congress for impeachment proceedings. 

If in fact Mr Trump was involved, with Russia, in nobbling the electoral race, would that be Treason in the US?

Do you think there's a chance that he could be impeached?




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2017 at 00:07
In the US, there is no such charge as "perverting the course of justice," it is "obstructing justice," in our lingo.  

former FBI director Comey, not Coney.

First the question of impeachment would come up, then if that happened, there would be the question of treason.  But there is a tradition (that has never been tested) that the President should be immune to prosecution.  So I doubt it would ever come down to a prosecution for treason, although some people would probably love to sentence him first, and then figure out the crime.  I find Donald Trump offensive, but that is not a criminal offense.  Do I think he is doing a lot of damage, both intentionally, and unintentionally?  Yes.  Is he doing anything illegal?  That's for others with more of an understanding of the law to decide, and make the case.  It is above my pay grade.  I suggest waiting for things to develop and in the mean time, pay close attention.  One's first estimate of the situation is usually wrong.  Figure out what he is guilty of, and then convict him of that.  You also can sell him the rope by which he'll hang himself.  In politics that is fair, and probably common.

Remember as far as impeachment or obstruction or 'treason' is concerned, we have never had a president like Trump before, which means that we really are in uncharted waters.

But all this is domestic issues, and so I would encourage you to ask such questions on the domestic Trump thread.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 00:31
I _think_ we can say Donald Trump is not on Vladimir Putin's good side, back in the Obama administration, 30 or so Russian personnel were kicked out for intelligence activities.  Now, Putin is kicking out, all but 500 or so staff for the American Embassy and the three consulates.  That is down from 1300-1500.  There is no illusion that that is a proportional response, nor that all those slated to be expelled are intelligence agents (they're not).

Of course in an authoritarian system, anyone who doesn't toe the party line is a potential adversary.  Even if they are only a lowly foreign stenographer.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2017 at 03:39
Expulsion of embassy personel is like Spring Cleaning, it seems to happen on a rotational basis.

US turn comes next, they expel some more Russians for acts not compatible with their diplomatic status or something similar, then quietly upgrade their numbers in Russia. Then it's Russia or China's turn and so on.

Who really knows after their displays of friendship at the G20?

This could be just another ploy to apparently distance Russia from the Trump Campaign investigation.


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2017 at 04:25
I guess the cuts of staffing at the American Embassy, and consulates will probably be all local hires, so it probably won't affect American diplomatic personnel.

I think that Trump has worked hard to _show_ that he isn't Putin's pet.  That doesn't mean that he isn't Putin's pet, but is pretty clear that if he is, he is not a lap dog.  I tend to think Putin worked to rig the election, and Trump may, or may not have known it.  Trump may have liked that (if he knew ahead), but he has shown that he doesn't feel like he owes Putin anything.  I don't think Donald Trump ever has shown true gratitude for anything, so to me that makes sense.  Of course, maybe a bigger game is being played, and Trump is acting, but I don't think so.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2017 at 04:30
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I guess the cuts of staffing at the American Embassy, and consulates will probably be all local hires, so it probably won't affect American diplomatic personnel.

I think that Trump has worked hard to _show_ that he isn't Putin's pet.  That doesn't mean that he isn't Putin's pet, but is pretty clear that if he is, he is not a lap dog.  I tend to think Putin worked to rig the election, and Trump may, or may not have known it.  Trump may have liked that (if he knew ahead), but he has shown that he doesn't feel like he owes Putin anything.  I don't think Donald Trump ever has shown true gratitude for anything, so to me that makes sense.  Of course, maybe a bigger game is being played, and Trump is acting, but I don't think so.

Hey, now you're playing the "He knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know game."

Steady on old chap, what? Toddy of Pimms and all that, what?

Those two are as cunning as, what we call, sh*t house rats.




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 10 Sep 2017 at 08:02
Vanuatu

I found this at http://www.roanoke.com/opinion/columns_and_blogs/will-trump-is-threatening-war-with-north-korea-but-what/article_c6696742-4b5b-505f-9c12-ca4610fbff26.html and I knew that you'd just love it. LOL




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2017 at 01:43
It's funny 'cause its true

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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2017 at 05:27
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

It's funny 'cause its true

The truth often is.  LOL


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2017 at 22:58
An American and a North Korean meet.  
The American says, "you know in our country, you can say anything you want about our President and you can do that, you will not be thrown in jail."  
The North Korean says, "We can do that."  
American says, "I don't believe that."
North Korean says, "nonetheless, it is true, it is the same thing in our country as it is in your country.  In our country you can say anything you want about your president, and no matter how bad it is, you will not be thrown in jail.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 02:21
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

An American and a North Korean meet.  
The American says, "you know in our country, you can say anything you want about our President and you can do that, you will not be thrown in jail."  
The North Korean says, "We can do that."  
American says, "I don't believe that."
North Korean says, "nonetheless, it is true, it is the same thing in our country as it is in your country.  In our country you can say anything you want about your president, and no matter how bad it is, you will not be thrown in jail.

Good to see a bit of humour every now and then.   Clap


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 12 Sep 2017 at 23:40
Some American bombers from the Doolittle raid made it to Russia, Stalin went to his engineers and ordered them to make "exact duplicates" of the bombers.  The engineers were not sure what he meant by that, but not wanting to ask, they made exact duplicates, including superficial patches from damage previously made when the plane had made bombing runs.

Kim Jong Un is a "crazy despot" like Joseph Stalin was a "crazy despot."  Both are worse by several orders of magnitude than Donald Trump.  We should not confuse the two, even though some people will inappropriately label Trump a despot or whatnot.  It is not true, and the fact that we can do so, and so publicly is a sign that it is not true.  Of course, neither Stalin nor Kim are crazy, they're just ruthless megalomaniacs.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2017 at 01:41
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Some American bombers from the Doolittle raid made it to Russia, Stalin went to his engineers and ordered them to make "exact duplicates" of the bombers.  The engineers were not sure what he meant by that, but not wanting to ask, they made exact duplicates, including superficial patches from damage previously made when the plane had made bombing runs.

Kim Jong Un is a "crazy despot" like Joseph Stalin was a "crazy despot."  Both are worse by several orders of magnitude than Donald Trump.  We should not confuse the two, even though some people will inappropriately label Trump a despot or whatnot.  It is not true, and the fact that we can do so, and so publicly is a sign that it is not true.  Of course, neither Stalin nor Kim are crazy, they're just ruthless megalomaniacs.

It may, or may not, have been noticed that I haven't posted much about Trump recently, largely due to the preponderance of material in the media about him, and the fact that, frankly, I think I've made my point.

According to those same media sources, including the New York Times, he's losing popularity in his own party and fighting a battle to get Congress to accept some of his legislative changes.

He's definately sullied the US brand around the world among traditional allies. He needs to be very careful with international relations lest he finds himself and the USA without the support that the country has enjoyed over the decades.





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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2017 at 05:56
Quote It may, or may not, have been noticed that I haven't posted much about Trump recently, largely due to the preponderance of material in the media about him, and the fact that, frankly, I think I've made my point.

According to those same media sources, including the New York Times, he's losing popularity in his own party and fighting a battle to get Congress to accept some of his legislative changes.
The Congress legislates. Trump made a deal with democrats bc the republicans had 8 years to come up with a health care plan and came up very short with a majority in the House & Senate. They have a majority and they can't pinch out a stool together. Ouch

Trump is forcing the Congress to legislate on the debt, on DACA and on tax reform. Try watching the business news, jobs are exploding.

It comes down to the House of Representatives and the Senate. Their No 1 job is making the Law. The POTUS is the Executive Branch. It's his job to make sure that the country is protected and that the law is observed. 

FYI the DREAMers are NOT getting rounded up and shipped off. That reassurance came from Nanny P after her talk with Trump. There wasn't a single a nasty note in her cawing.

The Congress has to decide what to do bc Obama left them dangling on his exceedingly un-sustainable executive order. DACA was unconstitutional, Obama had no authority to give anyone "wiggly" citizenship. It defies immigration laws in existence. 
 

Quote He's definately sullied the US brand around the world among traditional allies. He needs to be very careful with international relations lest he finds himself and the USA without the support that the country has enjoyed over the decades.
Really? This smells epically sullied. Some Ethnic cleansing in Burma didn't make CNN? Obama's good news story;
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/09/13/if-trump-wants-to-unravel-obamas-legacy-he-could-start-with-burma/?utm_term=.ff16691ef0a4" rel="nofollow - http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/09/13/if-trump-wants-to-unravel-obamas-legacy-he-could-start-with-burma/?utm_term=.ff16691ef0a4  


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2017 at 06:37
Yes Trump is aggressively pushing a legislative agenda dictated by the mandate of the people who voted in the majority.

So republicans have worked with him. They have not delivered on healthcare which is huge and they backed away from other issues that are not critical to the R. leadership.
Trump's foreign policy legislative record:
http://www.conservapedia.com/Donald_Trump_achievements:_Foreign_policy" rel="nofollow - http://www.conservapedia.com/Donald_Trump_achievements:_Foreign_policy


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 02:39
President Trump has, on several occasions, stated that the USA would not tolerate the US or it's allies being threatended by a nuclear armed North Korea.

Threats and counter threats have been exchanged between the US and North Korea, the latter ignoring repeated sanctions imposed by the United nations, and in recent weeks firing missiles over the Japanese island of Hokkaido. This is, IMO, an act of war.

In his maiden UN speech, Trump made it quite clear that the US was a patient nation, but that patience is wearing very thin. 

Quite disturbing is China's reluctance to intercede with North Korea in the interests of regional, and for that matter world wide stability.

The worrying aspect of the US threats of war with North Korea is, what would China and Russia do should the US attack North Korea.

China would not, could not tolerate US Military Forces on it's borders should the US and it's allies emerge victorious.

China, as far as can be ascertained at this stage, also would not tolerate a million or more North Korean refugees flooding it's borders.

Would China openly support North Korea in the case of war?

Would China's supporters throughout the world get involved on the North Korean/China side?

Would Russia take advantage of a second Korean War, as a distraction,  to advance it's own territorial interests in the Ukraine and the Baltic States?

The whole scenario sets the scene for World War Three as NATO would be drawn fully into the conflict.

Could this be the reason that the USA is being so tolerant of North Korea?


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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 02:58
Cats and dogs sleeping together, oh wait!  They do!  See what I mean!!!

Shooting missiles over is an act of aggression, Japan does not like it, but they are not going to go to war about it.  It is about the equivalent of U-2 flights over Soviet Union or Cuba, and then SR-71 flights, annoying, try to shoot them down, but part of the cold war (that in the Korean Peninsula is still going on).

I wouldn't worry about it that much if I was you, toyomotor, your far down in the Southern Hemisphere, probably safe from the fallout.  And who knows, maybe it will be the final straw to get Vanuatu to go down there and be your secretary.... <grin>


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 04:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

President Trump has, on several occasions, stated that the USA would not tolerate the US or it's allies being threatended by a nuclear armed North Korea.

Threats and counter threats have been exchanged between the US and North Korea, the latter ignoring repeated sanctions imposed by the United nations, and in recent weeks firing missiles over the Japanese island of Hokkaido. This is, IMO, an act of war.
.... disturbing is China's reluctance to intercede with North Korea in the interests of regional, and for that matter world wide stability.

Good article about Putin puppet-master-

"The key question is why Putin would exacerbate an already crisis-level situation on the Korean peninsula. The answer may be the same as to why Putin has embroiled Russia in Syria: as a way to disrupt and distract the West, especially the United States, and to make Kim Jong-un a Putin client like Syria’s Assad, a dictator who becomes completely dependent on Moscow for his regional status, even his survival, and will do Moscow’s bidding. As I’ve noted in my previous articles for NRO, the best short-term solution to the North Korean missile threat is intercepting an attack with a high-altitude, long-endurance UAV armed with interceptor missiles. However, because of missile trajectories, if a UAV shoots down a nuclear-armed ICBM headed for the U.S. in its boost phase, the debris will almost certainly fall on Russian territory.

Quote The worrying aspect of the US threats of war with North Korea is, what would China and Russia do should the US attack North Korea.

Run for cover ! The horse has bolted !

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451476/th-korea-vladimir-putin-behind-missile-threat" rel="nofollow - http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451476/th-korea-vladimir-putin-behind-missile-threat

Quote China would not, could not tolerate US Military Forces on it's borders should the US and it's allies emerge victorious.
How could the US occupy the area? Not another war front. NoKo is going to implode the launch sites are crumbling. US would have to be there for massive humanitarian crisis, the one that exist now and the future nightmare if NoKo gets shot down, over Russia!

Quote China, as far as can be ascertained at this stage, also would not tolerate a million or more North Korean refugees flooding it's borders.
They certainly wouldn't wait for people to start sprinting across the border like in Europe. China has a policy of shooting NoKo s if they attempt entry.

Quote Would China openly support North Korea in the case of war?

Would China's supporters throughout the world get involved on the North Korean/China side?
 
China might severely condemn NoKo but I can't imagine them supporting any country that would intervene militarily in that part of the world. 
I think China is the kind of kid who pays you to be their friend. But China could covertly mess with the US all over the world, already do.

Quote Would Russia take advantage of a second Korean War, as a distraction,  to advance it's own territorial interests in the Ukraine and the Baltic States?
The world is Putin's chessboard, from the link. I have to say the weapons acceleration under KJU seemed suddenly light years ahead of Iran. Did you notice too?:

"For example, the Vladivostok-to-Rajin ferry shuttled unknown cargos on at least nine round trips until July 14, when Russian customs officials suddenly announced they were detaining the Mon Gyong Bong for 16 hours on suspicion it might be carrying cargo for North Korea’s military. The ferry was released the next day; no one knows if any cargo was taken off, or if any additional cargo was put on. Then 13 days later, North Korea shocked the world again with its Hwasong-14 ICBM, powered by what Elleman and other analysts concluded looked like Soviet-made RD-250 rocket engines. “It appears that they sourced that engine from a foreign entity and they have successfully incorporated that engine into their missiles,” said Elleman. A story in the New York Times said that the foreign entity might be Ukraine, which used to make RD-250s during the Soviet era.  Ukraine’s State Space Agency, however, is adamant that the Ukrainian-made RD-250s of the kind used in the July 28 test were sent to Russia for its Tsyklon space rockets by the hundreds — while Ukraine itself has been a staunch supporter of sanctions against North Korea."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451476/th-korea-vladimir-putin-behind-missile-threat" rel="nofollow - http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451476/th-korea-vladimir-putin-behind-missile-threat

Quote The whole scenario sets the scene for World War Three as NATO would be drawn fully into the conflict.

Could this be the reason that the USA is being so tolerant of North Korea?

Trump is a lot less tolerant of "Rocket Man" than Bill Clinton and GW Bush. KJU is going to get shot down, Big League.
 

Quote fransicosan -"I wouldn't worry about it that much if I was you, toyomotor, your far down in the Southern Hemisphere, probably safe from the fallout.  And who knows, maybe it will be the final straw to get Vanuatu to go down there and be your secretary.... <grin>"
It's more excuse than I need. I want to see a Tasmanian Devil up close I want to watch 60 Minutes Australia and I want that Vegemite!


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 07:38
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Cats and dogs sleeping together, oh wait!  They do!  See what I mean!!!

Shooting missiles over is an act of aggression, Japan does not like it, but they are not going to go to war about it.  It is about the equivalent of U-2 flights over Soviet Union or Cuba, and then SR-71 flights, annoying, try to shoot them down, but part of the cold war (that in the Korean Peninsula is still going on).

I wouldn't worry about it that much if I was you, toyomotor, your far down in the Southern Hemisphere, probably safe from the fallout.  And who knows, maybe it will be the final straw to get Vanuatu to go down there and be your secretary.... <grin>

You display an uncanny lack of understanding. The reason that Japan hasn't shot the missiles down, is that it can't. There are time and technological factors to be taken into account.

And there is a big difference between unarmed spy planes and missiles, which could be fitted with explosive war-heads.

And you obviously haven't noticed that Australia's Prime Minister, as usual, has offered support to the US effort against North Korea, so, at worst case scenario, our interests certainly could be interfered with by KJU.




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I often wonder why I try.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 21 Sep 2017 at 14:29
franciscosan: here you go pal. This is how the kids learn geography these days. :)

http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/Asian_Geography.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/Asian_Geography.htm


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The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2017 at 01:10
Quote New York Times 25/9/17. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/world/asia/trump-north-korea.html" rel="nofollow - By RICK GLADSTONE and DAVID E. SANGER 

North Korea’s foreign minister escalated the tensions with the U.S., and he called President Trump’s derogatory comments about the country and its leadership “a declaration of war.”


So, the USA flys Air Force Bombers near North Korea's border, eliciting the above response, which was predictable.


If US War Planners thought that Kim Jong-un would be intimidated by this action, they were sadly mistaken. A repeat flypast could well result in North Korea attacking the US Aircraft, although they aren't in North Korean airspace.


Should that occur, the US would have no alternative but to target North Korean Missile sites and the North Korean Airforce. It's obvious what would happen then.


It seems to me that as long as Kim Jong-un and Donald Trump keep exchanging threats, the likelihood of war increases.


On the other hand, how long can Japan and other neighbouring countries continue to live under perpetual threat from North Korea.


I read today of a closer Japan/India relationship. India has nuclear technology, 1.5 million troops with up-to-date equipment and arms, a modern Air Force and a very large Naval Force. Should India choose to join the US in war against North Korea, regardless of what Russia and China say, it would be almost like Desert Storm-over in a matter days.


I doubt if either China, which is not on friendly terms with India, nor Russia would be game to take on India, especially if allied with the US and the forces of other friendly countries.


Kim Jong-un could well be the author of his own destruction if he doesn't pull his head in.





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I often wonder why I try.



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