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UFO footage

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Printed Date: 25 Sep 2018 at 19:41
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Topic: UFO footage
Posted By: Vanuatu
Subject: UFO footage
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 03:36
UFO footage , it's recent and kinda incredible. 
Is it time to take this seriously yet?




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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain



Replies:
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 14:46
You mean you don't already?

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2018 at 15:10
Can't say I've seen anything quite like this, four pilots all viewing in real time. Seeing the image makes me think it will be a point of first contact. 

What did you think toyomotor, everyone? 

This footage reveals more than any other I've seen.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2018 at 03:18
I'm on record in this forum and elsewhere having said that it would be arrogant in the extreme for earthlings to believe that other planets/galaxies were not inhabited by some forms of intelligent life.

There are still far too many unexplained mysteries on this planet to believe that aliens could not have been involved.

Until such times as earthly science proves it impossible, and I don't see how they could, that other life forms exist elsewhere, I'll keep an open mind and see what eventuates.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Jun 2018 at 20:48
Former British Defense Minister cites "ridicule factor" as one reason why continued sightings are not being investigated.



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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 28 Jun 2018 at 03:07
Yes, I agree.

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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2018 at 00:31
It is a U--F--O, it is unidentified.  What more is there to say?  I am sure governments have done some kind of analysis, but there is very little to go on.  As far as it being from Outer Space, that seems like a conclusion reaching a little bit.  We have what is perhaps a reasonable belief that it is not us, not the U.S. or any other current political entity.

If I was an alien, I probably wouldn't want to have anything (directly) to do with humans.  Some sci-fi suggests that we are like space herpies, impossible to get rid of, if you catch usCry


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2018 at 02:04
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

It is a U--F--O, it is unidentified.  What more is there to say?  I am sure governments have done some kind of analysis, but there is very little to go on.  As far as it being from Outer Space, that seems like a conclusion reaching a little bit.  We have what is perhaps a reasonable belief that it is not us, not the U.S. or any other current political entity.

If I was an alien, I probably wouldn't want to have anything (directly) to do with humans.  Some sci-fi suggests that we are like space herpies, impossible to get rid of, if you catch usCry

There are many reported sightings of UFO's around the world every year. Some of the reports have a degree of accuracy. We don't know what they are, so they remain UFO's.




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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 03:08
When you say "reported sightings" that implies that there were some "thing(s)" that were sighted.  But, in many cases that may be more than we can say we rightfully know.  Is a hallucination "a reported sighting"?  I would suggest that in many cases, it was a hallucination, or illusion or trick of the light.  In many cases, and in some cases it is a fraud, but there are a certain number of cases, left over when all other options are accounted for, that defy explanation.  But, how many dead ends will one have to chase down before one gets to a genuine case, and even then, what one can say about those genuine cases is very little.  But, toyomotor, you don't want to fund the space program because you think there is better things to do with the money, is not this a case where one can pour money into a dark hole and get little or no results?


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2018 at 03:37
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

When you say "reported sightings" that implies that there were some "thing(s)" that were sighted.  But, in many cases that may be more than we can say we rightfully know.  Is a hallucination "a reported sighting"?  I would suggest that in many cases, it was a hallucination, or illusion or trick of the light.  In many cases, and in some cases it is a fraud, but there are a certain number of cases, left over when all other options are accounted for, that defy explanation.  But, how many dead ends will one have to chase down before one gets to a genuine case, and even then, what one can say about those genuine cases is very little.  But, toyomotor, you don't want to fund the space program because you think there is better things to do with the money, is not this a case where one can pour money into a dark hole and get little or no results?

1. Yes, "things" were reportedly sighted, flying things which have not been accounted for.

2. Hallucinations, could be, who knows?

3. If there are aliens out there, probably they'll let us know in good time.

4. Space exploration versus investigation of UFO's are two different things, and yes, I'd rather see the money spent on fixing the multitude of problems here on earth.




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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2018 at 02:47
Maybe the aliens have a Star Trekean "prime directive."  Is "in good time"=  100, 1000 or 1 million years? It is in their good time, not our good time, probably.

The question is not whether some phenomenon has not be accounted for, the question is phenomenon that 'cannot' be accounted for.  Gun camera footage is pretty solid as far as something that cannot be accounted for, unless you believe it is a government conspiracy.  It could be that someone wants other people to believe in aliens, and is manipulating the media, but not likely because some 'one' has to be many people, and people generally cannot keep a secret. 


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 01 Jul 2018 at 03:28
I wonder why they're called UFO's? Could it be because they're flying objects which have not been identified?

There have been all sorts of explanations for this phenomena, many of them unsatisfactory or unbelievable.

Until such times as one lands on earth long enough to be examined, or is captured some other way, we haven't got a clue what they are.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2018 at 03:13
Some percentage of the many thousands of reports over the last 70 years are not conclusively explained away. Also many reports are from pilots and military personnel. The US government has known that these objects are being seen. 

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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 03 Jul 2018 at 05:53
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Some percentage of the many thousands of reports over the last 70 years are not conclusively explained away. Also many reports are from pilots and military personnel. The US government has known that these objects are being seen. 

Isn't that what I said?


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2018 at 05:08
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Some percentage of the many thousands of reports over the last 70 years are not conclusively explained away. Also many reports are from pilots and military personnel. The US government has known that these objects are being seen. 

Isn't that what I said?
Yes well we see eye to eye on this situation. Beer 


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2018 at 11:40
Many years ago, as a teenager (my hair wasn't always grey), I sat in bedroom on one clear-skied winters day, a rarity in Britain. I noticed a bright flashing light in the sky. At first I thought it was an aeroplane, since flight corridors went over the town along with endless queues of RAF Hercules going in and out of nearby Lyneham. Somehow though this was different. As it went over, I could see a polygonal sphere, sunlight flashing off the polished surfaces as it slowly rotated end over end. Genuinely that was what I saw.
 
A UFO with space aliens doing a flypast of my home in broad daylight? The cheek of it. Actually I haven't the slightest idea what it was I saw that day, nor will I create an explanation that makes no sense.
 
I do accept we probably aren't alone in this massive universe. We can't see the boundaries of it - the scale of it is now too far for light that early to have existed. Every day we discover that there are even more galaxies out there, each with billions upon billions of stars, each with the potential for an admittedly rare 'M' class planet (with humanoids in silly one piece jogging suits and odd rubber faces).
 
But why is Earth so important to aliens that they have to visit us? Our progress? That's just hubris. Our potential? That's just self importance. Our planet? Seriously? There's plenty to choose from out there. Or have aliens guided our early development as many believe? What for? Why would an alien species teach us how to build massive stone monuments? It serves no practical purpose beyond the spiritual and political needs of the human society that got its labourers to get on with it. Isn't all this substitution of alien superiority merely another religion?
 
I attended a lecture by paranormal investigators a few years ago. They told us how strange events are normally the secondary effects of mundane causes, and only around 10% of their investigations have any quality that comes close to mysterious, and then, usually found to be a further effect of the same mundane causes and secondary effects. In short, we jump to conclusions and impose fantasies on observations we don't understand. We are, by nature, a superstitious and easily fooled species.
 
Of course if an alien space ship finally lands on the White House lawn and demands an end to war, well so be it, the situation is clear. But mankind has always seen outside forces in the mysteries of their time. Gods, demons, faeries, even the medieval dog-heads which roamed the night and seemingly the surface of the globe, are now replaced by anonymous alien species more fitting for a scientific age,
 
As it happens, the question of whether UFO's will ever be taken seriously is a moot question - the military and governments of the world have always kept a wary eye on UFO reports and still do. Just in case.
 
Well I've had my say. Now I have to leave and attend to strange beer cans that appeared in my yard last night. Clearly the work of a highly advanced civilisation trying to send mystic messages and teacn me how to build an artificial mountain.


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2018 at 04:16
Caldrail

Accepting for a moment that there is intelligent life out there in the universe, couldn't the reason be curiosity.

Over the millenia humans have asked, "I wonder what's over that hill? Let's have a look".

Why are we earthlings now spending untold millions of dollars on space exploration? Curiosity. 

I'm leaving all of the options open, but I doubt that the question of intelligent aliens will be answered in my lifetime.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2018 at 21:44
Well spoken Caldrail,
by the way, it was not me who left beer cans in your yard.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 09 Jul 2018 at 15:30
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

 


But why is Earth so important to aliens that they have to visit us? Our progress? That's just hubris. Our potential? That's just self importance. Our planet? Seriously? There's plenty to choose from out there. Or have aliens guided our early development as many believe? What for? Why would an alien species teach us how to build massive stone monuments? It serves no practical purpose beyond the spiritual and political needs of the human society that got its labourers to get on with it. Isn't all this substitution of alien superiority merely another religion?
It's a presumption that "They" check in to help us. Suppose multiple advanced civilizations are breeding worlds like earth to compete in "Invasion Wars" for their own amusement like a macro version of what we do now with video games. What is the trajectory of gaming after a thousand years of development? At the rate technology is moving we cannot think big enough to predict how this turns out, right about that. 

 
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

I attended a lecture by paranormal investigators a few years ago. They told us how strange events are normally the secondary effects of mundane causes, and only around 10% of their investigations have any quality that comes close to mysterious, and then, usually found to be a further effect of the same mundane causes and secondary effects. In short, we jump to conclusions and impose fantasies on observations we don't understand. We are, by nature, a superstitious and easily fooled species.
Not easily fooled. Hardwired to occasionally be beyond our usual space and time like during sleep.
 
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Of course if an alien space ship finally lands on the White House lawn and demands an end to war, well so be it, the situation is clear. But mankind has always seen outside forces in the mysteries of their time. Gods, demons, faeries, even the medieval dog-heads which roamed the night and seemingly the surface of the globe, are now replaced by anonymous alien species more fitting for a scientific age,
 
As it happens, the question of whether UFO's will ever be taken seriously is a moot question - the military and governments of the world have always kept a wary eye on UFO reports and still do. Just in case.
 
Well I've had my say. Now I have to leave and attend to strange beer cans that appeared in my yard last night. Clearly the work of a highly advanced civilization trying to send mystic messages and teacn me how to build an artificial mountain.
If you accept that the physical world is built on the ethereal or universal mind then the "truth" is already known to us. Yes, we have already imagined this throughout time as magic and monsters. Now it has the name UFO. Magic and monsters did happen it was a reality to people of the time. A mundane occurrence yes, say disease, loss or war feeds fear and stories often originate this way like War of the Worlds.
Now we have real monsters don't we? 
Governments will be totally useless if there is an army of those tic tacs out there.
Build your mountain Muhammad, Francis Bacon would want you to.
Still, I persist in believing, as Francis Bacon said in 1620, that if something deserves to exist, it deserves to be known, not rejected out of hand with prejudice. The scientific method, principles of historical analysis, and an open mind ask that much.
http://www.thiemeworks.com/a-confession-out-of-the-closet-on-ufos/" rel="nofollow - http://www.thiemeworks.com/a-confession-out-of-the-closet-on-ufos/




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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 04:03
Larry Niven (science fiction)
Unfinished short story #2:

There are some things not meant to be known.



Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2018 at 11:11
And there's lots of things that are known to some people who don't want you to know about them.

(FBI, CIA, DEA, NSA, etc. etc)Wink


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 12 Jul 2018 at 12:40
Not as such -that presumes there is evidence of UFO's which is contrary to situations like the British stepping down oversight on such things. What the American government decided a long time ago was that UFO's, and potentially the occupants of such vehicles, represented a potential threat to civil order, belief in Christianity, and other such social issues. Thus they maintain a higher level of oversight than some countries and for that matter, whether Project Blue Book was a genuine investigation or smoke screen is something the American government would probably prefer to keep under wraps whatever the methods and conclusions of the investigations themselves.
 
Quote by the way, it was not me who left beer cans in your yard.
Excellent. I will remove you from the list of potential space aliens in our midst :D


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 17 Jul 2018 at 22:02
If you know something, that can complicate things for intelligence services, and they don't want things complicated.  To me, that is very understandable, and not necessarily sinister.  How would your mechanic like it if you stood over his shoulder and second guessed everything he did?  Especially if you didn't know about cars.  Of course if you were paying him by the hour, he might put up with it.  People claim that they have 'a right to know,' and maybe they do _if_ they put in the time and effort to do their homework first so that they might ask intelligent questions.  Note:  I am not saying that I know intelligent questions in this context.

On the History channel they're doing a rival of the 1970s show called "In Search Of." about UFOs, Atlantis, Nessie and Crystal skulls, that sort of thing.  The 1970s show was hosted by Leonard Nimoy, so you had 'Mr. Spock,' Mr. 'Logical' narrating it.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 21 Jul 2018 at 05:32
If something is letting us see it IT which appears to be the case, then let's take our heads out of the sand. The next president will be like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk -they are building faster than NASA. Commercializing space travel- it's the only way to move space observation forward.

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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2018 at 00:45
See what?  What is it exactly that you think you are seeing from the gun camera footage?  Could you, or any analyst write more than only a short paragraph of what appears?  Why do you think we are going to get more information if we go into space?  That is, on the issue of UFOs.  Space is big place, and I doubt we will stumble onto their base in space, unless they really want us to do so.

I don't know Bezos, but Musk is the founder of Tesla, the car company that gets subsidies for rich people in their eco-friendly cars.  They should stay in business.  I am glad they are doing something to get privatized ventures into space.  In the long run, having our eggs in more than one basket.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2018 at 01:39
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Why do you think we are going to get more information if we go into space?  That is, on the issue of UFOs.  Space is big place, and I doubt we will stumble onto their base in space, unless they really want us to do so.


Innovation and competition will drive the advancement of space travel the way capitalism drives the growth of products that are in demand.

I'm not speculating but it's intriguing and space travel has provided numerous advancements that enriched our life on earth, I expect there will be more benefits to come.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2018 at 22:12
I think that it is good to project outside ourselves, not just to have a limited view of the "world."  Who a 150 years ago could predict what the world would be like?  Science fiction is not _that_ good at predicting.  People look at cellphones and think Star Trek, but Star Trek never used communicators the way "we" do (particularly a teenager).  30 years ago, people would have looked at all the people walking around talking 'to themselves' and thought they were crazy.

But, I am not sure that they "enrich" are life or that they are benefits, just changes.  Is youtube better than sitting around and staring into the fire, chanting, singing songs, telling tales?  In Denver, I miss the stars because of all the light pollution.  
I think my life is better (than.....), but I am a little biased.  Is the nanny state better than hunter gatherer?  I am not so sure.  But for a lot of people exploration of outer space represents some level of freedom, some level of not giving in to the nanny state, although I know some people who believe freedom consists of not fastening your seatbelt, I wonder if they actually got into space, whether they would feel free to just wing it, as far as how to fasten their helmet:(
I mean, talk about hostile environment, there is no significant gravity in Outer Space, and yet most of our space operas show people with gravity in outer space.  Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Star Wars.  We cannot do without it, for most of our science fiction, and in real life low gravity causes all kinds of problems.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2018 at 18:21
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think that it is good to project outside ourselves, not just to have a limited view of the "world."  Who a 150 years ago could predict what the world would be like?  Science fiction is not _that_ good at predicting.  People look at cellphones and think Star Trek, but Star Trek never used communicators the way "we" do (particularly a teenager).  30 years ago, people would have looked at all the people walking around talking 'to themselves' and thought they were crazy.
 Johnny Quest came pretty close with the watch. That series aired for one season in 1962 but spent two decades in reruns. That watch was the future, I just thought Johnny! YOU ARE THE MAN!:)

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

But, I am not sure that they "enrich" are life or that they are benefits, just changes.  Is youtube better than sitting around and staring into the fire, chanting, singing songs, telling tales?  In Denver, I miss the stars because of all the light pollution.
Light pollution is a drawback but realize we are never going back unless some disaster wipes out communications. Those pleasures of the natural world are sadly getting harder to find. Will future generations miss what they never had? 


Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think my life is better (than.....), but I am a little biased.  Is the nanny state better than hunter gatherer?  I am not so sure.  But for a lot of people exploration of outer space represents some level of freedom, some level of not giving in to the nanny state, although I know some people who believe freedom consists of not fastening your seatbelt, I wonder if they actually got into space, whether they would feel free to just wing it, as far as how to fasten their helmet:(
I mean, talk about hostile environment, there is no significant gravity in Outer Space, and yet most of our space operas show people with gravity in outer space.  Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Star Wars.  We cannot do without it, for most of our science fiction, and in real life low gravity causes all kinds of problems.
http://https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/Benefits-Stemming-from-Space-Exploration-2013-TAGGED.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/Benefits-Stemming-from-Space-Exploration-2013-TAGGED.pdf
Space travel has greatly improved technical performance and innovation in many fields. This one has my heart attached to it.
http://https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/news/15_ways_iss_benefits_earth" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/news/15_ways_iss_benefits_earth

Whether in the confines of the International Space Station or a tiny hut village in sub-Saharan Africa, drinkable water is vital for human survival. Unfortunately, many people around the world lack access to clean water. Using  http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/releases/2015/space-station-teaches-nasa-valuable-lessons-about-life-support-systems.html" rel="nofollow - - has deployed systems using NASA water-processing technology around the world.






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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 00:19
You know if I was an alien (which I am not, or at least caldrail and I established that I am not a beer drinking alien that leaves can on his lawn.), I would go to a less developed planet to collect art and technology (for what is art but more primitive technology), wouldn't even need originals, but pictures to establish the dimensions for some futuristic 3D printer.  The goal wouldn't necessarily be making contact, although maybe that would be true at some future era.  And if positive connections are someday made, then the aliens could share back all that they had already harvested.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2018 at 03:44
Bill Gates drinks water that used to be poo, it's on the west coast-San Francisco needs this!




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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2018 at 01:46
The Eastern United States does not appreciate how scarce water is in the West.

I am sure every drop has passed through several dinosaurs (and other critters) over the years.

Ever look at Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials?


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2018 at 12:53
But the important question is how often do we drink water passed by space aliens? You know, people write books on 'what the space aliens did for us', or 'keep watching the skies!' but no-one seems to delve into the practical issues of alien intrusion in our midst. I mean, if seven ft tall repitilianoids are walking amongst us how come their DNA is never detected in crime scenes? Why do they never have embarrassing incidents like their mask slipping during that all important media call? Why are their spaceships so completely uncontrollable, whizzing of at random angles in an instant? And for that matter, why do some people know about them and the rest of us don't? I mean, are these alien reptile things dating members of the human race? Mind you, it would explain the behaviour of a former girlfriend or two.

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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 07 Aug 2018 at 21:48
So, what you are saying, is why don't aliens have "wardrobe malfunctions" (like Paula Abdul)?  <grin>

Maybe the aliens are just acting like kids spinning around on the merry-go-round?  Or, if you got artificial gravity, then why not move like that?  Of course, if there are aliens (if), then why do we think we could fathom their thinking?  (In one way saying that is a cop out, but on the other hand there might be a great deal of truth to it.)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 08 Aug 2018 at 13:08
Actually I like the stress you place on alienness - Carl Sagan made similar arguments. As it happens I said the same thing many years ago discussing aliens by pointing out that we could not second guess their motives for what they do, and virtually everything we see and hear about aliens, be it fiction or investigation, is from a human perspective and interpretation. One might however point out that life has an annoying tendency toward convergent evolution, on the grounds that certain solutions in nature are better, thus why would alien evolution be so impossibly different? Then again, as Carl Sagan would have pointed out, that is true for alien species that evolved toward a humanesque stereotype (Star Trek again!) whereas the universe seen from a sentient being that evolved from electrovores on a high gravity hothouse world where the ecology has a different emphasis and interaction would necessarily include variations from our expectations.
 
This of course brings in factors to our discussion that act against the norms of UFO writing. Besides the obvious issues of finding technology that counters obstacles posed by vast distances and physical limits, we run into the most important issue of motivation. Do these aliens want to explore? Study? Conquer? Steal? Consume? Find a human mate and settle down in some strange conspiracy to found a master race? All of these have been considered by human authors and UFO experiencees at one time or another, and they're just the obvious. I guess the problem is that no-one seems to have asked them. I wonder why?


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 Aug 2018 at 16:28
http://www.foxnews.com/science/2018/08/07/audio-reveals-creepy-details-ufo-mystery.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.foxnews.com/science/2018/08/07/audio-reveals-creepy-details-ufo-mystery.html

Recent find-Audio interview of a head master in 1966 Melbourne, Au. 300 witnessed a "flying saucer." 

From this level of existence we are like bacteria in the intestines, all higher perspective is forever out of our reach and we don't even know what town we live in.Big smile


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2018 at 22:56
I disagree, even if there is life elsewhere in the universe, "intelligent life" is probably exceedingly rare and something very special.  (Just don't tell the kids at the coffeehouse, or it will go to their heads).  But, also the importance of life is not just at the species level, but as the organic whole, the ecosystem+  So, I don't think that it would be a good thing to have more people, and less say, penguins or paramecium.  We should also remember that we have a bias towards charismatic mega-fauna, and not necessarily important links in the eco-system.  Hedgehogs are cute, but when they get loose in English bird preserves, they cause problems, and regardless of their fan base, should be treated appropriately.

Of course, I still am all for the theory that we got intergalactic coodies, and there is a giant quarantine around us.  But, every once in awhile, the alien doctors come in and give people an anal probe or turn a cow inside out.  We also must admit the possibility that aliens have a sense of humor, and find us hilarious.  Human comedy consist of looking down on the buffoon, and laughing knowing that that too is us.  Would aliens feel the same way??  Maybe the greatest human import to the rest of the universe, are our sit-coms.


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2018 at 14:26
Quote I disagree, even if there is life elsewhere in the universe, "intelligent life" is probably exceedingly rare and something very special.
 
It's impossible to know. However, one thing is clear about biology here on Earth. Intelligence is the result of excess brain capacity compared to the creatures body size. That's why corvids (crows, ravens, magpies etc) are such fabulous problem solvers or why great apes show occaisional tool use. Contrary to popular opinion the brain sizes of dinosaurs was not quite as small as most believe. Granted, they weren't the brightest of animals (a typical carnivore might be en par with a modern alligator) but plenty of large mammals were pretty dumb too, elephants excepted.
 
However, the intelligence. problem solving, and guile of animals is not necessarily going to result in the works of Shakespeare or interstellar spacecraft. It also requires manipulative members and sophisticated language. It requires free time to muse and consider as opposed to being fully concerned with survival and chasing that very attractive female. It requires social behaviours and prosperous enviroments, and further, the presence of useful resources that can be ultimately manipulated or worked.
 
As it happens I recall that some researchers have concluded Humanity is in danger of evolving smaller brains. Our easy lifestyles and technological tools are making mental work less strenuous. Use it or lose it. Nature does things that way.


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Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2018 at 21:29
I have got a question (that I don't know the answer of), let us say there is an alien civilization on a planet orbiting a star, let us say that they are of comparable technology, and intellectually curious somewhat like us.  How far away would they have to be, to not detect us with their radio telescopes?  Assume that the issue is not whether a light speed radio transmission would not have reached them yet. (double negative).
How long (and far) have we been able to detect an (exo-)planet lit up with radio waves, like the Earth is, or am exaggerating, how much that is?


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 04:01
First, what is the range of our current telescopes/radio telescopes etc?

Second, we can assume nothing.

Third, how do we know that interstellar visitors aren't circling earth at the moment?

Fourth, could it be that we are a colony of some far away inter-galactical life form?

Look at the number of unsolved mysteries that our current scientists still can't explain.

How do we know that one of our space agencies has not identified and contacted some far away life form?

Image result for Radio telescope range


Quote Anyway it's really all for naught because radio waves are completely useless for interstellar communication. They are moving way too slow for any meaningful use. Even the nearest solar system would take 4 years to send a signal and 4 more years to get a reply.
From https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/1032/what-is-the-maximum-transmission-distance-of-the-radio-signal-in-the-outer-space


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2018 at 19:52
We can assume many things, in fact we have to come up with working hypotheses in order to explore various theories.
Assuming that there are interstellar visitors circling the Earth is a fairly useless hypothesis.  The hypothesis does not make a difference as far whether it is true or not, unless something is observed, and the hypothesis does not make a difference before such observations (might) happen.

Are we colony?  Well not if you define a colony as being like the new world was for Europe.  The Spanish colonies, for example, are dependent on the Old World for finished goods and government, and supply raw materials.  Slaves also play a role in exploiting the New World, for the benefit of the Old World.  I think we would notice if some kind of commerce like that was going on.  If your model for a "colony" is the Greek poleis (or Phoenician, like Carthage), which were settled in Sicily, Southern Italy and elsewhere, that were independent of their parent cities, except for some similar cult practices, then yes, Earth might be a "colony" in that sense.  Generally, however, scholars these days try to call these the Greek name 'oikomenos,' avoiding the loaded term of "colony."

Well, you are not going to use radio waves on the intergalactic scale like it was a walkie talkie.  But, an alien race might get some knowledge of humans from I Love Lucy and the Flintstones.Wacko


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2018 at 14:26
[quote]Assuming that there are interstellar visitors circling the Earth is a fairly useless hypothesis.  The hypothesis does not make a difference as far whether it is true or not, unless something is observed, and the hypothesis does not make a difference before such observations (might) happen.[/quote[

Assuming that interstellar visitors are not circling the Earth is a very useless hypothesis.The hypothesis does not make a difference as far as whether it is true or not.

Numerous and credible sightings of UFOs around the world every year gives us a clue that there is something going on out there. Armed Services and government agencies have vehemently denied being involved in experimentation in this area.

You're a glass half empty person, while I'm (usually) the opposite.

Until such times as there's genuine proof either way I'll maintain an open mind.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 03:43
Actually, that interstellar visitors are not circling the Earth matches the observed data, you can talk about cloaking devices or other such concealment technology, but that is adding a level of complication.  NASA tracks most things larger than a bolt (well maybe not that small, maybe).

But, I wasn't saying that interstellar visitors are not circling the Earth, I was saying you get no mileage out of such a hypothesis.  If you cannot see aliens right now, it is of no use to go out actively looking for them, they know how to play hide much better than we know how to play seek.  Maybe we will notice them along the way, (if they are there), but if we cannot notice them already, doing more of and more intensely the same thing, is probably not going to get different results.

Or of course, we could figure out what, ali-ali-oxenfree! is in galactic, and call it out, in childhood games, that is what was called out when a session of hide-and-go-seek was over, signaling everybody to come out of their hiding places.  When you called it out, you generally were admitting that whoever was still in hiding, were too well hidden for your (my) poor abilities.

Personally, I think angels and demons are just as good (or bad) an explanation of UFOs as aliens are.  Or time or probability travelers.  


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 09:18
You certainly do march to the beat of a different drum, don't you?

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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2018 at 22:10
Not exactly sure what you are specifically referring to, but yes probably.  A friend says that I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me.  
But any (aliens or whatnot) would probably have such a sophisticated level of technology that it would be indistinguishable from magic.  Why shouldn't they be more like angels and demons (saints and villains) than like enlightenment rationalists, who in our day and age, often seem to worship at the altar of science?  In other words, why should aliens "be reasonable," in the way we picture ourselves as reasonable?  Are we really _that_ reasonable that we would think (unconsciously) that aliens would act like us.  I mean if they were more advanced, they probably could imitate us in action, and some extent thought.  Probably.  They probably have gone through a stage of development where they (like us) were worshipful of technology, and they probably have gotten beyond that, unlike us who sometimes act like technology is the answer to all our dreams (and nightmares). 


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2018 at 12:10
On one British freeview channel we regularly get programs about aliens. Most of it is th most ridiculous assumptions you could possibly make, besides illustrating how much paranoia is still evident in human society. I was particularly struck by one program that discussed how President Dwight Eisenhower signed a contract with the 'Greys', a deal in which America received superior technology in return for abductees.
 
Firstly - this hidden super-technology idea. Really? I mean, if you want to win a game of poker, why would you hide all your best cards? What's the point of accumulating war winning technology if you don't use it in service? It makes no sense whatsoever. Oh. I forgot. It was alien in origin so no-one wants us to knopw it was originally theirs. So how would anyone know that at all if it's such a secret?
 
Secondly - having read a book at my local library that lovingly describes all the various alien races, factions, and relationships current within our galaxy, one has to wonder if someone isn't making fools of us all. Who would know all of this stuff if it was true?
 
Consider this piece I wrote some time ago....
 

Public perception of current affairs is often skewed according to various factors. I remember an Iranian immigrant who was in my engineering class at College in the 80's. He was convinced, completely and absolutely, that the CIA was responsible for every bad thing that happened in the world. I told him that couldn't be the case. There's only so many CIA agents, only so much money to fund their activities, and there's plenty of other agencies at work, never mind the unexpected twists of fate. He simply couldn't understand why I was saying that.

 

That sort of thing isn't unusual. A forklift driver I spoke to a couple of years ago, as british as you can get, had exactly the same beliefs. He could not accept that 9/11 was the work of a slightly amateurish terrorist team. No, he insisted it was CIA black ops, without any inkling of commonsense or understanding of the politics, science, and forensics of the event. Another british warehouseman the same day insisted that the Falkland War was about getting bases in Chile. Pardon me? Well, a serviceman had told him that and it was from the horses mouth as far as he was concerned, never mind the complete implausibility of that particular leg-pull and all the evidence that it was a military expedition to oust Argentine occupation of a British dependency.

 

The reality isn't enough. Some people want to believe they know more than what the media tell us or perhaps more importantly, that they know more than you or I. Now I have to accept that even the western free press isn't entirely honest and objective all of the time, but then, neither are their sources. In some cases, information is withheld to prevent undesirable circumstances, or indeed discoveries that the authorities don't want scrutinised. That's normal security procedure for any country but it doesn't help convince people that the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is being related.

 

In the search of this kind of 'knowledge advantage' these people will believe anything if it provides an alternative explanation that puts their favourite bugbear into question. The upshot is that if you believe a certain agency is a bad thing, you tend to believe bad things about it. The islamic activists already know this - it's why they press the propaganda button at every opportunity. Hitler had asserted that the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it was true. It must be said he ought to know. However that strategy can backfire. The West never did find evidence of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.



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Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 03 Sep 2018 at 23:24
There were a few things like a helium lab trailer, that looked promising from satellite photos, but didn't pan out.  But probably the main reason why US (and the rest of the west) was fooled about WMDs was that Iraq was telling UN that they didn't have any WMDs but at the same time they were making noises to Iran like they had WMDs (and US were listening).  And of course, they had used them in the past against Iran and the Kurds.  People like to think that the mistake of believing there were WMDs was much more egregious than it really was.
But in another way it is a good example, things on satellite photos like helium lab trailers, were innocuous things that looked suspicious.  To me a UFO is precisely that, unidentified, but some people cannot take that and have to invent a whole mythology behind it.  I think that it is one thing to acknowledge the unknown, another to read into so much other stuff.  Very human though.
A friend has a DVD of alien autopsy, supposedly from Roswell.  The "scientists" are holding the forceps wrong.



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