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Printed Date: 18 Feb 2019 at 12:13
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Topic: US Politics
Posted By: toyomotor
Subject: US Politics
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2018 at 00:47
Quote Although Mr Trump hasn't been charged with anything, the question of whether a president even can be prosecuted while in office is a matter of legal dispute.
AND 
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-07/trumps-fury-bubbling-away-despite-staying-under-the-radar/10592812" rel="nofollow">

Trump's fury 'bubbling behind the scenes'


He may have stayed under the radar this week, but the US President was reportedly miffed by ceremonial events unrelated to him, writes Zoe Daniel.

The Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, which provides legal advice and guidance to executive branch agencies, has maintained that a sitting president cannot be indicted.

The above are extracts from ABC Australia's on-line news web site, 10 Dec 2
Before responding please read the article.
 My question is, why is this conversation even being held?  If a sitting President cannot be subpoaened why not? Is not the POTUS subject to the laws of the country? And if not, why not?
This a preposterous situation. Can the President do whatever he/she likes and be only the subject of impeachment-and what a process that is- and the ballot box.

I find this whole topic incredible.



-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.



Replies:
Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2018 at 23:59
An article on the CNN On-line News web site, written by Jennifer Taub, says that Trump had better win the 2020 election to stave off prosecution for the Campaign issues, involving pay-offs to prostitutes and Russian involvement.

My take, from that article, is that many people believe that a sitting President cannot be prosecuted for the commission of crime. Many senior lawyers have claimed that not to be the case.

Surely, if the rule of law is to have any credence in the USA, everyone must be amenable to the law, Presidents, sitting or not, included.

Some members may recall that I wrote a post some time ago about the corruptness of the entire American political and justice systems- no one took me on over that post, so it appears that my post is accepted as being truthful and accurate.

This is not about Trump, but about every American citizen. And the ability of Presidents to pardon convicted felons is in serious need of review.

The American justice and political systems are far from as honest and transparent as they should be, and every American citizen should be screaming their heads off, regardless of political ideology.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2018 at 23:12
Quote  Mr Mattis was seen by many as the last "adult" in the Trump White House.

This seems to be the opinion of many journalists and analysts. The Trump administration, now populated mainly by "wanna be Trumps" and yes  men, has placed the whole western world in peril by not making Trump see sense over many issues.

His latest idiot move is to withdraw all US troops from Syria, and there's more than a hint that Afghanistan is next.

His stupidity in many areas is highlighted by comments made by some close to him, "moron" "won't take advice", won't read briefing papers" etc and his perpetual lies leave allies in a position whereby they don't know what he'll do next, and they are looking to distance themselves from the USA.

That the Australian Prime Minister has just followed Trump in recognising West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is simply stupid, and is causing our closest neighbours a lot of angst.

He's, in effect, shutting down the US in a display of supreme petulance because it doesn't appear that he'll get the funding that he demands for the Mexico border wall.

NO INDIVIDUAL should be in a position to shut the government down.






-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2018 at 17:49
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Although Mr Trump hasn't been charged with anything, the question of whether a president even can be prosecuted while in office is a matter of legal dispute.
AND 
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-07/trumps-fury-bubbling-away-despite-staying-under-the-radar/10592812" rel="nofollow">

Trump's fury 'bubbling behind the scenes'


He may have stayed under the radar this week, but the US President was reportedly miffed by ceremonial events unrelated to him, writes Zoe Daniel.

The Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, which provides legal advice and guidance to executive branch agencies, has maintained that a sitting president cannot be indicted.

The above are extracts from ABC Australia's on-line news web site, 10 Dec 2
Before responding please read the article.
 My question is, why is this conversation even being held?  If a sitting President cannot be subpoaened why not? Is not the POTUS subject to the laws of the country? And if not, why not?
This a preposterous situation. Can the President do whatever he/she likes and be only the subject of impeachment-and what a process that is- and the ballot box.

I find this whole topic incredible.

Ok I'll make this simple as the "reports"
The METHOD for dealing with the president is Impeachment
If the Legislature removes him from office then a president would be criminally charged.
Comprendre?
When Zoe Daniels cites her sources I'll consider what the "reports" say.


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2018 at 17:52
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

An article on the CNN On-line News web site, written by Jennifer Taub, says that Trump had better win the 2020 election to stave off prosecution for the Campaign issues, involving pay-offs to prostitutes and Russian involvement.

My take, from that article, is that many people believe that a sitting President cannot be prosecuted for the commission of crime. Many senior lawyers have claimed that not to be the case.

Surely, if the rule of law is to have any credence in the USA, everyone must be amenable to the law, Presidents, sitting or not, included.

Some members may recall that I wrote a post some time ago about the corruptness of the entire American political and justice systems- no one took me on over that post, so it appears that my post is accepted as being truthful and accurate.

This is not about Trump, but about every American citizen. And the ability of Presidents to pardon convicted felons is in serious need of review.

The American justice and political systems are far from as honest and transparent as they should be, and every American citizen should be screaming their heads off, regardless of political ideology.


No one will "take you on" bc no one is going to argue no corruption and it would not be accurate to say completely corrupt. 
By calling out the US are you suggesting that the AU criminal justice system is without corruption?
Pull me other leg. Smile



-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2018 at 18:14
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote  Mr Mattis was seen by many as the last "adult" in the Trump White House.

This seems to be the opinion of many journalists and analysts. The Trump administration, now populated mainly by "wanna be Trumps" and yes  men, has placed the whole western world in peril by not making Trump see sense over many issues.

His latest idiot move is to withdraw all US troops from Syria, and there's more than a hint that Afghanistan is next.

His stupidity in many areas is highlighted by comments made by some close to him, "moron" "won't take advice", won't read briefing papers" etc and his perpetual lies leave allies in a position whereby they don't know what he'll do next, and they are looking to distance themselves from the USA.

That the Australian Prime Minister has just followed Trump in recognising West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is simply stupid, and is causing our closest neighbours a lot of angst.

He's, in effect, shutting down the US in a display of supreme petulance because it doesn't appear that he'll get the funding that he demands for the Mexico border wall.

NO INDIVIDUAL should be in a position to shut the government down.


No individual is shutting it down. How does Schumer say border security is important and "you won't get YOUR wall Mr President"
The "stupid" is the democrat's door. Please explain how 2000 US troops in east Syria are balancing the peace of the Middle East?
None of the talking heads know what will happen, my goodness don't you remember the world before the US put troops in Syria? 

Were you worried that there were no US troops in Syria? I read Mattis' letter and I wonder where he was during the Obama "Red Line" fiasco in Syria. 

Ever think the man has just had enough and wants to retire? Mattis doesn't see things Trump's way and most of Mattis' contemporaries agree with him about Syria. The world is always changing, wisdom is a letting go as much as it is a rebuilding.
I'm glad they are coming home. 16 years in Iraq 15 years in Afghanistan, we should be protecting our own borders.
Israel is the business of the Israelis and their allies you know the history. The dome of the rock in Jerusalem probably isn't even the actual location of Herod's temple but it's a political statement that I presume is better made by Israelis. Guess I'll never be as perceptive as your CNN pals.Unhappy


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2018 at 23:08
Quote No individual is shutting it down. How does Schumer say border security is important and "you won't get YOUR wall Mr President"
The "stupid" is the democrat's door. Please explain how 2000 US troops in east Syria are balancing the peace of the Middle East?
None of the talking heads know what will happen, my goodness don't you remember the world before the US put troops in Syria? 

Were you worried that there were no US troops in Syria? I read Mattis' letter and I wonder where he was during the Obama "Red Line" fiasco in Syria. 

Ever think the man has just had enough and wants to retire? Mattis doesn't see things Trump's way and most of Mattis' contemporaries agree with him about Syria. The world is always changing, wisdom is a letting go as much as it is a rebuilding.
I'm glad they are coming home. 16 years in Iraq 15 years in Afghanistan, we should be protecting our own borders.
Israel is the business of the Israelis and their allies you know the history. The dome of the rock in Jerusalem probably isn't even the actual location of Herod's temple but it's a political statement that I presume is better made by Israelis. Guess I'll never be as perceptive as your CNN pals.Unhappy

Oh, I see, so Congress has voted to shut down as many as nine agencies, and is compelling up to 800,000 workers to either work with no pay (Airport Traffic Controllers for example) or simply get no pay. Funny, I missed that-I don't think the media even reported on it.

I watched a doco on TV last night, entitled Making a Dictator. Some of the commentary made included;
  • It's never his fault;
  • Believes that everyone loves him;
  • Knows better that the best experts in the field; 
  • Ignores advice;
  • Isolationist; and
  • Tears up agreements (as in Hitler invading Russia, after having signed a Non Aggression Pact with Stalin).
All of these comments seem to me to be similar to comments being made in world media currently.

TRUMP alone is the reason part of government is closed, another display of arrogant petulance on his part. He's ruined the USA brand world wide, been made a fool of by KJU and ignores Russian moves in the Arctic. China's Xi Jin Ping, inscrutable as Chinese are renowned to be, is simply smiling at Trump's capriciousness while he takes control of the South China Sea-and he can do it because the US is in so much disarray because of you know who.

Mattis, while coming to the point in his resignation letter, was far too soft on Trump.

While the western world is reeling at Trump's unheralded withdrawal of troops, allies should be distancing themselves from the USA, for the duration of the Trump maladministration, and forming new alliances.

As I wrote previously, I do agree that the world has relied too heavily on the USA as it's policemen and that needs to change. An all member UN force would be much more acceptable to all concerned I think.





-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2018 at 07:57
Trump has lost just about every sane knowledgeable member of his senior administration, and now he's apparently he's now looking to sack the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank.

He's ignoring the fact that his mercurial policy (?) decisions are behind the falling trade indices in the US. His trade war with China and withdrawal from international trade agreements have sent the markets plummeting. He's criticised and ostracised many close allies. Embarrassingly, there were protests in the UK against a visit by Trump.

But, it's not his fault! Blame the Dems, blame the Fed, everyone but himself.

People who support Trump seem to be not able to see the wood for the trees, or, are just as dumb as he is, IMHO, of course.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2018 at 09:42
I feel a bit sorry for Sara Huckabee Sanders, in doing her job to the best of her ability, she's ruining her own reputation by peddling the continual lies, false facts and misrepresentations made by her boss.




-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2018 at 09:13
Franciscosan

Just a question, or two, if you don't mind.

As I understand it, either eight or nine Federal Government departments are shut down, and the employees are forced to work without pay for the time being.

Now, the question-if these employees decided to withdraw their labour (strike) what do you think would be the Federal Governments reaction if they did strike?

I realise that some departments would hardly be missed.

  1. Homeland Security-could be risky for the country.


  1. Housing and Urban Development-OK for a few weeks perhaps.


  1. Interior - National Parks etc would not make a great difference, I would think, over a short term.


  1. Transportation - I'm not sure of how much they impact on day to day transactions.


  1. Executive Office of the President - One would think that there should always be an Executive management on it's toes.However, with Trump, if he were out of action, it could be an advantage.



-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2018 at 00:02
As Donald Trump, home alone over Christmas blames the Federal Reserve for the falling economic indicators, he has never seemed to realise that, above all else, a national leader must provide an air of stability in all areas of government administration, or at least the appearance of stability. This, of course is the direct opposite of what he has provided.

The falling indicators can be laid squarely at his feet because of his mercurial policy shifts, and I don't need to go on, do I?

Now surrounded by mostly inexperienced people, there are no checks and balances against his alarming policy decisions and the world must realise that.

Sadly, the USA is no longer a reliable friend and ally.





-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2018 at 03:21
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

As Donald Trump, home alone over Christmas blames the Federal Reserve for the falling economic indicators, he has never seemed to realise that, above all else, a national leader must provide an air of stability in all areas of government administration, or at least the appearance of stability. This, of course is the direct opposite of what he has provided.

The falling indicators can be laid squarely at his feet because of his mercurial policy shifts, and I don't need to go on, do I?

Now surrounded by mostly inexperienced people, there are no checks and balances against his alarming policy decisions and the world must realise that.

Sadly, the USA is no longer a reliable friend and ally.



Headline from today's Wall Street Journal , you are misjudgeing things the economy is better here. CNN is completely dishonest and you just don't live here. Many economists were/are saying that the interest rates have to go up, they were deflated for too long during Obama's anemic no growth economy. Now it's all gone over the other way and, what? panic? 
It serve the interests of some to beat the drum of failure so consistently that any upset seems apocalyptic.

http://https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-holiday-retail-sales-are-strongest-in-years-early-data-show-11545777668" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-holiday-retail-sales-are-strongest-in-years-early-data-show-11545777668

U.S. Holiday Retail Sales Are Strongest in Years, Early Data Show

Sales excluding autos rose 5.1% between Nov. 1 and Dec. 24 from a year earlier, according to Mastercard

Shoppers delivered the strongest holiday sales increase for U.S. retailers in six years, according to early data.
http://https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Wall-Street-notches-best-day-in-10-years-13492224.php" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Wall-Street-notches-best-day-in-10-years-13492224.php

Wall Street notches best day in 10 years

Dow soars more than 1,000 points as fears of Fed chief's ouster ease




-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Dec 2018 at 03:31
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

As Donald Trump, home alone over Christmas blames the Federal Reserve for the falling economic indicators, he has never seemed to realise that, above all else, a national leader must provide an air of stability in all areas of government administration, or at least the appearance of stability. This, of course is the direct opposite of what he has provided.

The falling indicators can be laid squarely at his feet because of his mercurial policy shifts, and I don't need to go on, do I?

Now surrounded by mostly inexperienced people, there are no checks and balances against his alarming policy decisions and the world must realise that.

Sadly, the USA is no longer a reliable friend and ally.



CNN is really doing a number on you. Govment shutdown is how US politicians play chicken. Furloughed workers will collect unemployment benefits people will keep working and states supplement their payrolls.
If states cannot make payments to essential workers they can still be paid. Congress will pass a supplemental bill to fund unpaid employees. That was the past, now that leftists loons will have the House majority in January they may not pass a supplemental. Either way it's still just election losers pouting and pissing themselves.


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 08:38
Donald Trump has withdrawn the USA from the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, claiming that others (Russia) weren't abiding by it.

Now, who would have told him that? Surely not the same idiots he said last week should go back to school.

Just another example of Trump changing the facts to suit his views.

This man will go down in history as having been the most dangerous president ever!


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 15:05
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Although Mr Trump hasn't been charged with anything, the question of whether a president even can be prosecuted while in office is a matter of legal dispute.
AND 
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-07/trumps-fury-bubbling-away-despite-staying-under-the-radar/10592812" rel="nofollow">

Trump's fury 'bubbling behind the scenes'


He may have stayed under the radar this week, but the US President was reportedly miffed by ceremonial events unrelated to him, writes Zoe Daniel.

The Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, which provides legal advice and guidance to executive branch agencies, has maintained that a sitting president cannot be indicted.
Trump has a great economy, growth for the last 100 consecutive months. Some Federal workers being used as paws are waiting for the back pay from the supplemental bill passed by the congress.
 There are jobs, China was hurt byy tariffs the US has absorbed any tariff related expenses bc as Trump exposed to the US citizens, the deal was slanted againstt US interests. 

[quote]The above are extracts from ABC Australia's on-line news web site, 10 Dec 2
Before responding please read the article.
 My question is, why is this conversation even being held?  If a sitting President cannot be subpoaened why not? Is not the POTUS subject to the laws of the country? And if not, why not?
This a preposterous situation. Can the President do whatever he/she likes and be only the subject of impeachment-and what a process that is- and the ballot box.

I find this whole topic incredible.

toyomotor, yes it is preposterous. The reason the democratic narrative has turned to " a sitting president cannot be subpoenaed" is bc there is no evidence to support a subpoena. Bob Barr, new Attny General is not going to tolerate deviation from the law and Mueller knows it. 

If Trump had to be subpoenaed, he would be impeached as Nixon was when he was ordered to turn over his tape recordings, documents etc. Bill Clinton was subpoenaed to testify over Monica Lewinsky after impeachment. 
Why no impeachment? No evidence for it, um how you say CO-LLU=SHUN. Presidents don't do whatever they want without limits. Trump has to figure out how to build a wall without money allocated by congress expressly for that purpose, bet he does it! 


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 15:12
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Donald Trump has withdrawn the USA from the 1987 Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, claiming that others (Russia) weren't abiding by it.

Now, who would have told him that? Surely not the same idiots he said last week should go back to school.

Just another example of Trump changing the facts to suit his views.

This man will go down in history as having been the most dangerous president ever!

As evidenced by what aggression? The aggression that has existed and continued over decades?
Obama was the one who promised more "flexibility"( to Vlad via Medvedev hot microphone moment)after his election but that didn't seem to alert your normally useful conspiratorial radar.

Trump publicly humiliates his staff to force them to his will, and it's sometimes effective and sometimes not. I am OK with Washington being humiliated a little, and add the lunatic- leftists media to the those deserving of humiliation.


-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2019 at 22:24
Quote The reason the democratic narrative has turned to " a sitting president cannot be subpoenaed" is bc there is no evidence to support a subpoena.

You're still looking at the world through rose coloured glasses. That's not what the articles have been saying. If correct, they say that a sitting president can't be subpoenaed because of his Executive position.

Meanwhile, the other camp is saying that in fact he can be.

I think I'll let the dust settle on this one.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 03 Feb 2019 at 04:09
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote The reason the democratic narrative has turned to " a sitting president cannot be subpoenaed" is bc there is no evidence to support a subpoena.

You're still looking at the world through rose coloured glasses. That's not what the articles have been saying. If correct, they say that a sitting president can't be subpoenaed because of his Executive position.

Meanwhile, the other camp is saying that in fact he can be.

I think I'll let the dust settle on this one.

So, Clinton and Nixon were not impeached and soupenised in their executive positions?

And "If Correct" isn't a line for an objective journalist, FACTS are appropriate for news reporters, pundits are different and we expect opinion and speculation.

People who run around saying "IF Correct" are wearing the funny glasses. 

Democrat/hollywood types think Marxism will be fine once we finally have the Real Marxism

Will AU be taking on any Honduran migrants? How about Germany? Not interested? 




-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2019 at 02:37
There has been discussion on this forum about the terms "collusion" and "conspiracy", and, basically if they were interchangeable.

I have argued that they are. Journalists, and others not trained in law, seem to believe that while collusion is not a crime, conspiracy is. The following text from an article on the Just Security website goes a long way in explaining.
Quote
by  https://www.justsecurity.org/author/goodmanryan/" rel="nofollow - Ryan Goodman

August 1, 2018

  • http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https://www.justsecurity.org/59896/thinks-collusion-crime-justice-department/&t=Who%20Says%20Collusion%20is%20a%20Crime:%20The%20Justice%20Department" rel="nofollow">social-image
  •  
  • http://twitter.com/share?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.justsecurity.org%2F59896%2Fthinks-collusion-crime-justice-department%2F&text=Who%20Says%20Collusion%20is%20a%20Crime:%20The%20Justice%20Department&via=just_security&count=horizontal" rel="nofollow">twitter icon
  •  
  • http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=https://www.justsecurity.org/59896/thinks-collusion-crime-justice-department/&title=Who%20Says%20Collusion%20is%20a%20Crime:%20The%20Justice%20Department" rel="nofollow">reddit icon

I’ll make this short. President Donald Trump and his lawyer Rudy Giuliani are  https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1024263146008207361" rel="nofollow - now trying to  https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/31/politics/donald-trump-collusion-defense-tweet/index.html?utm_source=twCNN&utm_term=link&utm_medium=social&utm_content=2018-07-31T12%3A43%3A03" rel="nofollow - claim  that “collusion is not a crime.” Several months ago, I wrote a New York Times  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/opinion/collusion-meaning-trump-.html" rel="nofollow - Op-ed  about the misuse of the term “collusion,” and earlier this summer I testified before Congress and very purposefully never once used the word “collusion” in my  https://www.justsecurity.org/57611/testimony-senate-judiciary-committees-hearing-election-interference/" rel="nofollow - written testimony  which outlined possible crimes for working with Russia to interfere in the 2016 election. I stuck instead to the terms one finds in the U.S. federal code such as conspiracy and federal campaign finance law violations.

That said, the acts we would ordinarily associate with collusion could easily amount to a crime. We could have a detailed discussion of which acts and which crimes exactly. But here I want to just make one point. Any discussion in this space should include an understanding that the U.S. Justice Department has set out explicitly that acts of collusion can amount to a federal crime, and has done so specifically with respect to the jurisdiction of special counsel, Robert Mueller.



-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2019 at 21:27
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

There has been discussion on this forum about the terms "collusion" and "conspiracy", and, basically if they were interchangeable.

I have argued that they are. Journalists, and others not trained in law, seem to believe that while collusion is not a crime, conspiracy is. The following text from an article on the Just Security website goes a long way in explaining.
Quote

toyomotor, you and your friend  Ryan Goodman ARE MAKING MY POINT  
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

by  https://www.justsecurity.org/author/goodmanryan/" rel="nofollow - Ryan Goodman

August 1, 2018

  • http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=https://www.justsecurity.org/59896/thinks-collusion-crime-justice-department/&t=Who%20Says%20Collusion%20is%20a%20Crime:%20The%20Justice%20Department" rel="nofollow">social-image
  •  
  • http://twitter.com/share?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.justsecurity.org%2F59896%2Fthinks-collusion-crime-justice-department%2F&text=Who%20Says%20Collusion%20is%20a%20Crime:%20The%20Justice%20Department&via=just_security&count=horizontal" rel="nofollow">twitter icon
  •  
  • http://www.reddit.com/submit?url=https://www.justsecurity.org/59896/thinks-collusion-crime-justice-department/&title=Who%20Says%20Collusion%20is%20a%20Crime:%20The%20Justice%20Department" rel="nofollow">reddit icon

I’ll make this short. President Donald Trump and his lawyer Rudy Giuliani are  https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1024263146008207361" rel="nofollow - now trying to  https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/31/politics/donald-trump-collusion-defense-tweet/index.html?utm_source=twCNN&utm_term=link&utm_medium=social&utm_content=2018-07-31T12%3A43%3A03" rel="nofollow - claim  that “collusion is not a crime.”

Name the statute Ryan. Collusion to have an office party is not illegal. What are you colluding ABOUT? 

Opposition Research against your political opponents? That's not illegal Ryan.

Quote Several months ago, I wrote a New York Times  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/opinion/collusion-meaning-trump-.html" rel="nofollow - Op-ed  about the misuse of the term “collusion,” and earlier this summer I testified before Congress and very purposefully never once used the word “collusion” in my  https://www.justsecurity.org/57611/testimony-senate-judiciary-committees-hearing-election-interference/" rel="nofollow - written testimony
That's bc there was no evidence of a CRIME Ryan.

 

Quote which outlined possible crimes for working with Russia to interfere in the 2016 election.
One of Lefty's favorite words, bc no actual proof or investigative work is required, so no reality just emotional wishin'

Quote I stuck instead to the terms one finds in the U.S. federal code such as conspiracy and federal campaign finance law violations.
Well Ryan the correct terms should be used and if you had evidence to go along with your aspirations of a Trump lynching then you should have shared it.

Quote That said, the acts we would ordinarily associate with collusion could easily amount to a crime.
except that there is no evidence of CRIMINAL COLLUSION.

[quote]We could have a detailed discussion of which acts and which crimes exactly.

But they don't imply guilt any more than reporting that Cohen was asked by Trump to lie to congress, only to be contradicted by Mueller himself. Note this is Mueller's first denial of CNN lies and that's bc of AG Barr.

[quote]But here I want to just make one point. Any discussion in this space should include an understanding that the U.S. Justice Department has set out explicitly that acts of collusion can amount to a federal crime, and has done so specifically with respect to the jurisdiction of special counsel, Robert Mueller.

 Evidence Proving Acts of criminal collusion against Trump have been as tricky as the Russian lawyer who admitted lying about her meetings with Trump Jr. She thought it would buy her time & keep her in the US.

http://https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/mueller-investigation-turns-law-upside-down/" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/01/mueller-investigation-turns-law-upside-down/



-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 04 Feb 2019 at 23:37
Not focusing on Trump in particular, just the terminology.

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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2019 at 14:02
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Not focusing on Trump in particular, just the terminology.

Exactly what more can be said about terminology? 
And why does it matter?



-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 05 Feb 2019 at 23:17
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Not focusing on Trump in particular, just the terminology.

Exactly what more can be said about terminology? 
And why does it matter?


Terminology, when used inappropriately, changes our language.  

It only matters when people, with no legal training, confuse the meaning of the two words and their application in law.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2019 at 00:54
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Not focusing on Trump in particular, just the terminology.

Exactly what more can be said about terminology? 
And why does it matter?


Terminology, when used inappropriately, changes our language.  

It only matters when people, with no legal training, confuse the meaning of the two words and their application in law.
Ah, well you know people.
I always assumed it was deliberately ambiguous, to justify a never-ending investigation.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2019 at 04:49
Quote I always assumed it was deliberately ambiguous, to justify a never-ending investigation.

Not at all. We have many ambiguous words in the English language, most of which are only interpreted in context.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2019 at 05:05
There is something called quashing a subpoena.  I am not sure on what grounds that happens.

I think that the Trump campaign is the gift that just keeps on giving.  It seems that it has been having a hard time getting to the bottom of things, because there doesn't seem to be a bottom.  I think that those who have been charged, have been charged for real things in the criminal code, stuff that if they didn't know better, well they should have.  But I do find it funny that the left gets all worked up about since they're the ones that embrace moral relativism.  And I also find the "conservative" defense of Trump also funny because the right in general are usually the ones who have moral standards.  Conservatives choose Trump because he is doing something about the insidious creep of increasingly loose morals ordained by legislation in our society.  
There is a natural finishing point for the investigation when there is nothing more in the (sleaze ball) campaign to discover.  There are two schools of thought, shut it down, because it is getting results, or not shut it down because it is (still) getting results.  These investigations have a wide leeway.

From what I understand Mueller is publishing stuff as he goes along in the court notes when he is working on a specific indictment.  Just shutting him down, would not really shut it down.


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 06 Feb 2019 at 15:59
Quote There is something called quashing a subpoena.  I am not sure on what grounds that happens.

There are quite a number of reasons that this could be done-
  • if the process from which the subpoena is born was shown to be defective at law;
  • if the process was seen to be corrupt;
  • if the witness to be subpoenaed was deceased or incompetent (insane); and
  • if a lawyer representing the witness showed conclusively that there was no reason/validity for the issue of the subpoena because the witness had no knowledge of the evidence sought from him/her.
There would be more, but not being terribly au fait with US Law, that's all that I can think of because they're all common to the British Based systems.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 07 Feb 2019 at 16:02
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote I always assumed it was deliberately ambiguous, to justify a never-ending investigation.

Not at all. We have many ambiguous words in the English language, most of which are only interpreted in context.
In the case of Trump, no evidence and no charges. It's ambiguous by design of Mueller. He has repeatedly omitted exculpatory evidence in cases heard by the FISA court, in fact 75 times, not all of Mueller's doing. He was admonished by the FISA court for cases heard between 2001 and 2004. 
This is news by the way, just revealed by The Hill.

 

Mueller hauled before secret FISA court to address FBI abuses in 2002, Congress told

the former FBI director and current special prosecutor in the Russia case, once was hauled before the nation’s secret intelligence court to address a large number of instances in which the FBI cheated on sensitive surveillance warrants, according to evidence gathered by congressional investigators.
http://https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/428755-mueller-hauled-before-secret-fisa-court-to-address-fbi-abuses-in-2002" rel="nofollow - http://https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/428755-mueller-hauled-before-secret-fisa-court-to-address-fbi-abuses-in-2002


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 00:33
http://https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/07/richard-burr-senate-russia-investigation-1156624" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/07/richard-burr-senate-russia-investigation-1156624

Senate Intelligence chairman: No evidence of Trump-Russia collusion

By  https://www.politico.com/staff/choi-matthew" rel="nofollow - MATTHEW CHOI

 

02/07/2019 01:54 PM EST



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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 17:35
fix your link.



Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 08 Feb 2019 at 18:27
The links to this story have been sabotaged. Do you want me to copy the whole thing? Can you search?  It won't let me cut/paste properly. 
http://https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/08/trump-media-richard-burr-1159002" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.politico.com/story/2019/02/08/trump-media-richard-burr-1159002

In an  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/richard-burr-on-senate-intelligence-committees-russia-investigation-2-years-on/" rel="nofollow - interview  with CBS published Thursday, Burr (R-N.C.) gave glimpses into the dynamics and scope of his committee's probe, which was launched shortly before Trump's 2017 inauguration and has now stretched into its third year. Burr told CBS that the committee staff has interviewed more than 200 witnesses from multiple countries and reviewed over 300,000 pages."Based on the evidence to date," Burr said, the committee could not definitively say there was collusion between Trump and the Russians.

"If we write a report based upon the facts that we have, then we don't have anything that would suggest there was collusion by the Trump campaign and Russia," Burr told CBS.

Still, the senator said some questions raised over the investigation could occupy the committee "for the next decade," and that portions of the final report could be so classified that they are never revealed to the public. Burr said his committee is "close to pushing out the door" a report on the Obama administration's response to Russian election interference, a release that the chairman said could come within a "matter of weeks."


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 09 Feb 2019 at 18:57
considering how much much of the republican party has become a Trump subsidiary, such reassurances are not, well, very reassuring.  Especially if it is framed as how Obama handled the Russian interference.  It is an interesting question, but it smacks of the old Trump theme that everything is Obama's fault (and Trump is just a misunderstood "innocent" who everybody is picking on).  

The Trumpites seem to think that if Obama and Hillary got off from their crimes because of a technicality, for some reason that absolves Trump.  It is like a robber saying, Simpson got a way with premeditated murder of two, and all I did was shoot someone in holdup that went the way I absolutely did not intend it to go.  It is not my fault and I shouldn't be held accountable.  Trump has been using and hiding behind hi-priced lawyers all his life, Obama and Hillary at least understand how to behave in public.  It seems like it is not whether something will trip Trump up, but what.



Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2019 at 16:05
Evidence for Clinton's collusion with the Russians grows. Consider the fraudulent dossier compiled by Christopher Steele with the help of a retired KGB operative. It was the basis for a fraudulent FISA application. Or read the investigative journalism of John Solomon and Greg Jarrett.

Nothing Trump did will absolve Hillary and Obama for colluding with the Russians. It's coming, Mueller will be lucky if he isn't forced to resign.

Evidence of Trump collusion has yet to show itself, notwithstanding "IF IT'S TRUE-CNN" ad nauseam.

The behavior of democrats in public, recently and including Obama but most definitely Hillary's has been an embarrassment for years and years to many of us. We are free to see what we see.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2019 at 16:57
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

  
There is a natural finishing point for the investigation when there is nothing more in the (sleaze ball) campaign to discover.  There are two schools of thought, shut it down, because it is getting results, or not shut it down because it is (still) getting results.  These investigations have a wide leeway.

From what I understand Mueller is publishing stuff as he goes along in the court notes when he is working on a specific indictment.  Just shutting him down, would not really shut it down.
Here are some real sleazeballs who invented a "narrative indictment" and coerced admissions of guilt unrelated to Trump's campaign. Thank goodness they were here to protect us from democracy :)
 

Two more officials cited in FBI texts step down

The FBI's media chief and the head of the Justice Department's anti-espionage section are both departing.

http://https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/08/fbi-texts-officials-resign-400533" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/08/fbi-texts-officials-resign-400533

The list of officials frequently discussed in the texts who are no longer in their jobs seems to grow by the day. It includes former FBI Director James Comey, who was fired by Trump; former Deputy Director Andrew McCabe; Comey’s chief of staff, James Rybicki; FBI General Counsel James Baker; as well as Strzok, who was booted off the special counsel investigation and sent to a job in the FBI’s personnel division.



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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2019 at 17:05


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2019 at 00:15
Nothing Obama or Hillary did will absolve Trump.  But don't worry, he has a buddy in the Kremlin spreading disinformazione.

Hillary, Bill and Obama are out of the game, they are the old bastards, we have to worry about the new bastard now.  Or don't worry about him if you don't want.  What me worry?


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2019 at 03:01
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Nothing Obama or Hillary did will absolve Trump.  But don't worry, he has a buddy in the Kremlin spreading disinformazione.

Hillary, Bill and Obama are out of the game, they are the old bastards, we have to worry about the new bastard now.  Or don't worry about him if you don't want.  What me worry?
Worry about the racists/baby killers in Virginia's government.
Absolve Trump from what exactly? Oh that's right, you wouldn't know. 
Yet you seem to have some silent supporter(s), Hillary and Bill are toxic but not without some influence. 

Obama was still very active in the democrat party and speaking against this POTUS, he only quiets down when Comey is exposed for his bias and disinformation in the--- "Russia Probe"

Obama is sweating the question about why he couldn't stop Russian interference- small clue- his sycophants convinced him that Hillary would win.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2019 at 14:08
Forget all of the past history, Donald Trump has done, and continues to do immeasurable damage to the American brand and to US integrity.

His behaviour since inauguration is reason enough, IMHO, to sack him.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2019 at 14:52
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Forget all of the past history, Donald Trump has done, and continues to do immeasurable damage to the American brand and to US integrity.

His behaviour since inauguration is reason enough, IMHO, to sack him.
Yea start your list here, all those terrible things, toyomotor.
And then I'll list the success of this admin so far. Eager to do so. 

His behavior? Obama was allowed to act like an idiot for 8 years so whitey could prove that he isn't a racist, all whitey proved is that he can ignore his own mind when pressured sufficiently by media and leftists lunatics. Democrats want to execute viable babies that survive abortion. 



-------------
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 00:20
Let's not take this so personally.

We all have different views on many things, including Donald Trump, but that isn't to say that I don't respect your right to support him.

But you must admit, he's made a rod for his own back.


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It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 02:25
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Let's not take this so personally.

We all have different views on many things, including Donald Trump, but that isn't to say that I don't respect your right to support him.

But you must admit, he's made a rod for his own back.
Aren't we supposed to listen to what's being said and ignore the fact that you may not love the messenger?  Obama did some things that I appreciated such as normalizing US/Cuban relations and his release of prisoners who were sentenced to decades for non violent crimes.  To not acknowledge good work is often hypocritical and always small.


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Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 22:10
"a rod for his own back"?

The "problem" with Donald Trump is that he was duly elected, deposing him will just look like sour grapes to his supporters, especially since the Clintons were so loose with any appearance of moral integrity.  It is an interesting question, what crime or misdemeanor would be bothersome enough to actually rise to the level of consciousness for his followers?  Nothing he does or says bothers his supporters while almost everything he does and says bother his opponents.  There may be a point that there is too much evidence to ignore and not impeaching him becomes ridiculous.  But, if we can, I think we should wait it out until the 2020 election and hope he gets voted out then.  But, again the Democrats seem to be in a race to demonstrate who can be more radical.  If that is the case, then a (corrupt) Donald Trump might be the lesser of evils.

Like Jordan B. Peterson said, "you gotta live with these people." meaning the Republicans for the democrats, and the democrats for the Republicans.

Republicans (conservatives) have traditionally thought the democrats a little stupid, but well intentioned, the liberals (not classical liberals) on the other hand, believe that conservatives are evil.  They cannot imagine anyone disagreeing with them.  Now, that animosity of the left, is being repaid on the right.  The liberals and the media are stupid in not understanding where this rage is coming from, they assume it is some kind of white supremacist plot, but the fact is, white supremacists are rare, having been purged from conservativism by William F. Buckley.  You're much more likely to find Black separatists [supremacists] and Hispanic followers of Atzetlan, especially on campus, then you are to find white supremacists.

Condorcet and Godwin thought that Malthus was evil, Malthus on the other hand though Condorcet and Godwin a little misguided, but generally good intentioned.  It probably sticks in Godwin and Condorcet's craw that the general public knows of Malthus, whereas they are largely forgotten.

Thomas Sowell has (at least) two books dealing with difference between the current left and right, _Conflict of Visions_, and _the Anointed Vision_. 


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 22:15
Of course, it would be better for the Republicans if Trump was impeached, the sooner the better, so that they could get someone else in there that does not have his baggage.  Likewise, it might be better for the democrats to run against Trump, not against an unknown Republican candidate but of course that is the case if they don't destroy themselves (which it looks like they are doing).


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2019 at 23:31
A rod for his own back = brought it all on himself.

I don't rail against Trump's policies in general, just his public persona, his lies and exaggerations.


-------------
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.



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