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Time, linear, or cyclical?

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Forum Name: Alternative History
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Topic: Time, linear, or cyclical?
Posted By: franciscosan
Subject: Time, linear, or cyclical?
Date Posted: 29 Apr 2019 at 14:24
Is time linear? or is it cyclical?  Or is it a bit of both (and how, and why?)

Mark Twain said something like history (time?) does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.

What does it mean to question whether time is linear or cyclical in a thread devoted
to alternate history????

Are there other alternatives???



Replies:
Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 01 May 2019 at 21:51
Time is not seperable from Space, qv Einstein. Although our perception is linear albeit at an increasing rate as you get older, it appears to me an illusion formed by change. because the universe exists in a quantum state in one instant, and changes a quantum state in the next iteration, there is no storage of data concerning quantum states, qv Heisenberg.
 
So time travel is impossible, because there is no past or future to travel to. All we have is now.


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 02 May 2019 at 17:58
Yes, and tomorrow we'll still have NOW!

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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 00:33
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Is time linear? or is it cyclical?  Or is it a bit of both (and how, and why?)

Mark Twain said something like history (time?) does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.

What does it mean to question whether time is linear or cyclical in a thread devoted
to alternate history????

Are there other alternatives???

We perceive and experience time as linear, is there any choice? 

We can conceive of existence as being a bit cagey about appearances. Mark Twain :) It does rhyme, to Caldrail's point the next iteration, or in the next 24 hours we will have undergone change as a result of changing states. Oscillation is the mechanism for changing states. The vibration of a string is a perfect measure of oscillation, just to and fro, minimum to maximum and repeated, but not forever carbon based life form.

The alternative might be something like the Borg. Intelligence that could create from a non physical source. Thoughts appear to come from a non physical source, brain or mind? I think a brain can exist without mind.
The unbounded intelligence of all that is, creates systems that develop their own intelligence. Unbounded intelligence would create a manifestation specialized for a purpose, a stem cell is a blank canvas until patterns guide its form and function. 

Humans build a raft. This can serve a purpose and humans can stop using their own energy. Every version of "raft" would be an improvement or an evolutionary dead end.
Looking at the trajectory of "raft" in human evolution is also looking back in time. 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 10:18
night follows day, follows night, circular after a fashion.  Nietzsche's eternal recurrence of the same, which I won't expound on right now.  It is a thought experiment.

Saying that space/time is the way Einstein or Heisenberg characterized it, does not necessarily clarify much.  I am not even sure that Einstein and Heisenberg agreed, at least not on quantum physics.

When the elephant and the tiger fight, the grass gets trampled.  Just an idle thought.

A police officer pulled over Werner Heisenberg, he asked him, "do you know how fast you were going?"  Heisenberg said, "no, but I know where I am."


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 03 May 2019 at 10:59
The Infinity sign doesn't go on forever, it repeats itself and the zero or world egg emphasizes the purpose in nature for the cycles. We've got cycles everywhere we look in nature and human/animal behavior. 
The quantum physics are kind of analogous to the "images" of a black hole that were in the news last week.
We were looking at a simulation of what the black hole would look like, IF we could visually interpret what was recorded. As for clarification, well that's going to be tricky. :)


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 08 May 2019 at 14:15
Nietzsche and the eternal recurrence of the same.

A thought-experiment

Assume that time in cyclical and will repeat itself, now picture yourself repeating your life over and over, endlessly, the same mistakes, the same embarrassments, everything.

So how do you escape this endless repetition?  You can't by squirming out of it, you cannot change anything in the past or future, repeating endlessly.  The only way you can get "out" of it, is by accepting it, accepting everything, your past/future/everything.  When you do that, accepting everything, a new possibility arises.

Now if you want to assume a physics of an oscillating universe, or an expanding one that defuses and starts again, you can, but I don't think it is necessary for the thought experiment.  I think that you can think of it as a traumatic experience in the past which cannot be let go.  What Nietzsche calls the "revenge of the 'it was'."


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 May 2019 at 00:28
"I think that you can think of it as a traumatic experience in the past which cannot be let go.  What Nietzsche calls the "revenge of the 'it was'."

Are you talking about the meaning of life being related to what we sense as time passing??


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 14 May 2019 at 11:58
We have some say over what is, and what will be (present and future) or so it seems, the problem with the past is that it is not "is" and therefore we cannot "do" anything about it, except obsess about it (the revenge of the 'it was') or accept it.  But, even accepting part of it is problematic, you gotta take the whole thing, the good and the bad.

A lot of these kids that shoot up schools don't have any particular traumatic experience, but they definitely have a sense of revenge (against) the 'it was'.  They are bored and nihilistic.  Perhaps, they
would actually have less rage if there was 'something' bad that had happened to them.  Or so it seems to me.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 11:25
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

We have some say over what is, and what will be (present and future) or so it seems, the problem with the past is that it is not "is" and therefore we cannot "do" anything about it, except obsess about it (the revenge of the 'it was') or accept it.  But, even accepting part of it is problematic, you gotta take the whole thing, the good and the bad.
Do you think the "bad" parts are more valuable to human greatness than the "happy" parts?

The future appears to materialize overnight but events require momentum. Everything that occurs is rehashed and analyzed to determine "what" precipitated and "when" an event began to unfold.
"IS" could  be viewed as "Becoming." Anyway the theme was used in the book/film Red Dragon to describe the killer's becoming the dragon in Blake's painting "Woman clothed by the Sun." "The Mental Traveler" the poem by Blake, is similar to M-brane theory and you described a repeating cycle where even details and identities are the same. It's a reenactment of the "great fall" with new scenery, except that one changes form in death and is the darkness in one existence and the light in the next.


Quote A lot of these kids that shoot up schools don't have any particular traumatic experience, but they definitely have a sense of revenge (against) the 'it was'.  They are bored and nihilistic.  Perhaps, they
would actually have less rage if there was 'something' bad that had happened to them.  Or so it seems to me.
Very sad again school shooting, this time a young man died to save others. You are right about the mass shooters on any scale. A Swami would say that the shooters do not love and strong energy builds up in them. Bitter resentment poisons the mind until a person is "adrift" from emotional connections. Drugs keep people from feeling emotional pain, including the pain that is meant to keep you from making the same mistakes, loss of empathy entirely.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 17 May 2019 at 10:59
No I don't think the bad are more important than the happy.  I think the happy helps get us through the bad, and the bad helps us appreciate the happy.

The traditional distinction is past tense (was), present tense (being, is), and future tense (will be), or future tense possible (may be, can be).  becoming is sort of between present tense (being) and future tense will be.  Becoming is that which is coming to be,  So at least from a traditional philosophy metaphysics, is is being, becoming is a little different.  Heraclitus is the philosopher of becoming.

Everybody dies, but not everybody dies heroically>  I think he did well, and we should rejoice in his life, while at the same time noting his death.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 May 2019 at 01:51
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

  Heraclitus is the philosopher of becoming.

Everybody dies, but not everybody dies heroically>  I think he did well, and we should rejoice in his life, while at the same time noting his death.
Heraclitus death, while gross doesn't on it's face seem heroic. I'm not saying it wasn't heroic but why do you say so?


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 07:28
two different topics,

school shooting, the kid at the STEM school that (with others) fought to disarm the attacker, got shot and died.  His death is tragic, but heroic.

other topic, being and becoming, Heraclitus as the philosopher of becoming.  I think that if one was more familiar with Heraclitus, one might see the appropriateness of his death, but no, it is not tragic or heroic.
Heraclitus said that bodies should be thrown out sooner than dung. and other sayings.

light-cone, I forget C, speed of light.  260,000 m/s??  Only things within the cone can have an effect
. . . . . . . . . .            on later events in the cone, and thus ultimately the "discrete" event at the center
 . . . . . . . . .             of the cone, in turn that event can only effect later events, dependent on whether
  . . . . . . . .              its effects have traveled far enough, as determined by time and the speed of light.
   . . . . . . .
    . . . . . .
     . . . . .
      . . . .
       . . .
        . .     T-1 one time unit before the event, forming a causal radius of one unit, 
                            everything within the causal radius of one light-unit has an effect on time of event.
         .                 T+/-0 Time of the event.
        : :
       : : :
      : : : : 
     : : : : :     T+4, 4 time units after the event

So if Alpha Centauri exploded, we would not see it immediately but would see it roughly 4.5 years later, the event for us would not happen until we saw it.


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 28 May 2019 at 20:15
Light cones are an elegant explanation and one modern physicists prefer. Personally I'm a little unconvinced by the concept despite the appearance that it works, all a little too convenient and has an underlying intent to create a situation which allows for time travel. There's one guy out there somewhere trying to create a time machine by manipulating light into travelling backward. Good luck, but I still say quantum mechanics prevents time travel - which after all, is merely a literary concept with no actual science behind it.

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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 29 May 2019 at 08:50
If I understand correctly, in order to get time travel, you need slanted time/space, so that the light cones become vertical or near vertical.  Which is 'why' the Enterprise had to slingshot around the sun's gravity well in order to go back in time to get whales.  If the intense gravity well of a blackhole is necessary for time travel, well then, I am not sure the grandfather paradox is going to be a practical concern.

Of course, there is the possibility that time travel is really probability travel (Flight of the Horse, Larry Niven), that 'time travel' is possible, but any society that engages in it, will snuff out the possibility of their own timeline (a societal grandfather paradox).  So, it is both possible, and at the same time any society that engages in it will 'nip their society in the bud.'

In Larry Niven's flight of the horse collection there is a moronic time traveler sent back to fetch extinct animals (Star Trek wasn't original in this respect.)  He goes back for a horse, and gets a unicorn, which leads to the kingdom altering all its books on horses, to include a horn on the pictures.  I think on one trip, he brings back the Midgard Serpent (Norse mythos).

I don't know quantum mechanics well enough to say it excludes time travel (although from my vague understanding, on the level of particles there is something nicknamed 'spooky-action' which implies that maybe it does not (exclude).  But, look upon the whole 'matter' as a logical problem, a reduction ad absurdum.  If this is the case, then this and this and this is the case, and then you have to worry about killing your grandfather before you were ever born.

On another thread, I mentioned a black physicist who was an expert in time travel.  His story is neat and so I would suggest to anyone to look up "black physicist, time travel" to read it.  One does not have to believe in time travel to appreciate his story.

But, to get back to the linear/ cyclical question, I wonder if it could be both?  What is the difference between a straight line and the circumference of a circle with an infinite radius?  Well, maybe not totally straight, and maybe not completely infinite.  Or is this just another example of using a logical chain until we get to something absurd?


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 29 May 2019 at 23:24
Causality prevents the Grandfather Paradox. So the fact you exist in spite of your intentions means you never meet him or enact something that affects him. But that presupposes the past is co-existent with our current moment. I don't believe that it is (I've already mentioned this of course). The problem with allowing a past that co-exists with Now means that the Future must also, and if that's the case, then everything is pre-determined and we have no actual freedom of will. Do you believe that? I'm sure your grandfather will be relieved to hear his existence isn't unnecessarily threatened, but then, stepping in front of the number ten bus looking the other way is unavoidable. Fate?
 
Personally, I hold that Fate is the sum of all decisions and natural forces. Yes, you can direct your future - but so conceivably can anyone else. What matters is that the decision is yours rather than anyone else I guess - the Romans would have understood that point. To them, free will and self determination were the fundamental reasons why slaves and animals existed to be directed. They understood something intuitively which I arrive at from rational consideration. But then, their decisions and those of their rivals cost them their superiority.
 
Jupiter reneged on his promise it seems.


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 30 May 2019 at 03:32
I don't think that mathematicians agree, or even really understand, if a circle with an infinite radius is actually a line. If so, would an infinite line really be a circle ? Does the circumference retain some sort of curve, or does it become a line ? Who knows........ Or is it all something that exists, like Grover's Corners,  only in the Mind of God..........

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Dis Aliter Visum
"Beware of martyrs and those who would die for their beliefs; for they frequently make many others die with them, often before them, sometimes instead of them."


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 30 May 2019 at 12:10
Originally posted by Windemere Windemere wrote:

I don't think that mathematicians agree, or even really understand, if a circle with an infinite radius is actually a line. If so, would an infinite line really be a circle ? Does the circumference retain some sort of curve, or does it become a line ? Who knows........ Or is it all something that exists, like Grover's Corners,  only in the Mind of God..........
Infinity for the Greeks was more like "boundless" as I understand it, the snake eating its tail is regeneration -is that the never ending aspect of the symbol?

When do we experience an "edge effect"? Seems like sleeping and waking are the most transformative, recurring states that we experience and can see in nature. Opposing forces creating an edge effect in our little nest must be indicative of a broader system that we lose sight of entirely with Hubble!
 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: admin
Date Posted: 30 May 2019 at 13:25
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

night follows day, follows night, circular after a fashion.  Nietzsche's eternal recurrence of the same, which I won't expound on right now.  It is a thought experiment.

Saying that space/time is the way Einstein or Heisenberg characterized it, does not necessarily clarify much.  I am not even sure that Einstein and Heisenberg agreed, at least not on quantum physics.

When the elephant and the tiger fight, the grass gets trampled.  Just an idle thought.

A police officer pulled over Werner Heisenberg, he asked him, "do you know how fast you were going?"  Heisenberg said, "no, but I know where I am."

1. Is that necessarily correct? Should/could it not be day follows night? But that's not time is it, it's a human construct of a natural phenomena.
2. But what if the fight takes place where there is no grass?
3. He should have been tested for DUI Drugs.

What is true today, may not be true tomorrow. Science is turning old beliefs upside down-so time could in fact be circular, we'll have to wait and see.




Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 01 Jun 2019 at 22:37
Originally posted by admin admin wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

night follows day, follows night, circular after a fashion.  Nietzsche's eternal recurrence of the same, which I won't expound on right now.  It is a thought experiment.

Saying that space/time is the way Einstein or Heisenberg characterized it, does not necessarily clarify much.  I am not even sure that Einstein and Heisenberg agreed, at least not on quantum physics.

When the elephant and the tiger fight, the grass gets trampled.  Just an idle thought.

A police officer pulled over Werner Heisenberg, he asked him, "do you know how fast you were going?"  Heisenberg said, "no, but I know where I am."

1. Is that necessarily correct? Should/could it not be day follows night? But that's not time is it, it's a human construct of a natural phenomena.
2. But what if the fight takes place where there is no grass?
3. He should have been tested for DUI Drugs.

What is true today, may not be true tomorrow. Science is turning old beliefs upside down-so time could in fact be circular, we'll have to wait and see.



The Pentagon is no longer denying claims of UFO sightings. The Navy isn't calling them spacemen but they have officially stopped saying  that eyewitness reports are misleading and that recorded UFO sightings have been "equipment" related.
http://https://thehill.com/homenews/445688-us-navy-pilots-detail-sightings-of-unidentified-flying-objects" rel="nofollow - http://https://thehill.com/homenews/445688-us-navy-pilots-detail-sightings-of-unidentified-flying-objects


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 02 Jun 2019 at 04:25
About free will and determinism, personally, I 'believe' in free will, but we are not in an epistemic (knowledge) position to absolutely know whether it is free will or determinism.

It could be that we have free will to believe in free will.
It could be that we have free will to believe we're determined.

It could be that we are determined to believe in free will.
It could be that we are determined to believe that we're determined.

If things stayed the same, would we have a concept of time? isn't time most familiar to us through the passing of the days, the passing of the seasons?  Through our passing breath?
Light cones and time travel are food for thought, they are not particularly serious food for thought.

Of course, there is the stoic free-will of the dog tied to the cart, either the dog can go happily along the cart, or he can be dragged along.  Either way, he's going, but he can either freely go along, or reluctantly go along.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 03 Jun 2019 at 01:18
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

About free will and determinism, personally, I 'believe' in free will, but we are not in an epistemic (knowledge) position to absolutely know whether it is free will or determinism.

It could be that we have free will to believe in free will.
It could be that we have free will to believe we're determined.

It could be that we are determined to believe in free will.
It could be that we are determined to believe that we're determined.

If things stayed the same, would we have a concept of time? isn't time most familiar to us through the passing of the days, the passing of the seasons?  Through our passing breath?
Light cones and time travel are food for thought, they are not particularly serious food for thought.
Light cones won't get through a black hole's gravity it prevents light escaping. Metaphoric "light" traversing the edge into a reassembled Bang? Finding black holes are like finding exoplanets, they are detectable when they effect stars and bodies around them by stretching their orbital path. At the cosmic level anyway, free will isn't happening.  
The Rosicrucian's beliefs (of whom Francis Bacon can be counted) and some Native American tribes explained the history of the earth as changing states - air from water/ liquid to solid, a multitude of changing states, ether, clay, vegetable, finally to unconscious animal who would have lived forever were it not for changing lanes.
The Old Ones to Native Americans are the rocks, sometimes mountains in the stories. Death was discovered rather than feared and the dream and sleep state were reversed. Dreaming was the time to explore, eating was not required and death did not occur. When awake in the material world they rested and didn't interact. Their conscious minds were shut off in the material world.
At some point it Changed -wake-sleepers-the ether- stay awake and interact with the material world of food and and flesh, they forego paradise for knowledge, the tones of the earth and the beauty (what is it about art & beauty?)of the seasons are irresistible.
Another Great Fall story but with some science applied regarding what kind of change would make us mortal.  
Was it the beginning of time? Hard Wired in the collective unconscious of all people, all subject to fear and death is the unshakable memory or alternate reality of the dreams we have. 
Quote Of course, there is the stoic free-will of the dog tied to the cart, either the dog can go happily along the cart, or he can be dragged along. Either way, he's going, but he can either freely go along, or reluctantly go along.
You Are Here -the Enlightened Dog



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 04 Jun 2019 at 13:37
Sounds like you are saying that the event horizon prevents light-cones from "working" a-la time travel.  I am not sure that means that light-cones don't work otherwise.  

I like looking at the moon through the branches of a tree on a starry night.  Four different times in one vision.

We move backwards through time, familiar with the past, looking at the future only as if through a backwards mirror.  Science fiction is notorious for getting the future wrong.  Friedrich Hayek talked about how in order to anticipate the future we would have to have future knowledge, the knowledge that goes with that time.  But 'then' again that would mean that it would not be then but now.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2019 at 13:37
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Sounds like you are saying that the event horizon prevents light-cones from "working" a-la time travel.  I am not sure that means that light-cones don't work otherwise.  

You were talking about physics being reliable in a sense throughout the universe. You use the light cone as an example of distortion. How is light distorted by gravity? Gravity should not have an effect on light bc it supposedly has no mass. So how does it get pulled into the Event Horizon? 
The light never actually gets past the event horizon and nothing in the event horizon would be seen back where it came from, it's an edge effect on existence.
I'm simply saying that physics are an imperfect explanation for the universe and time /space. 

There are perfectly sound explanations for worshiping a WW2 GI if you are a native of Tanna, Vanuatu -John Frum bringer of Spam.
We have another explanation for John from America!



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2019 at 15:16
energy is mass, mass is energy, that is the point of Albert Einstein's equation.  A photon is a light particle and has mass.  But, yes physics is an imperfect explanation, and imo will never be conclusive.  Our view of the universe is limited, although knowledge wise, we tend to think we know everything but the final ("inconsequential") details.  For example, the brain is just a computing machine, and if we get a computing machine with enough power, it will achieve consciousness.  Really, it is just around the corner.Party

One way you can have time travel is if the universe repeats itself, and you go from universe1 at time T,
to universe2 at time T minus X.  It would be as if you went back in time X amount.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 05 Jun 2019 at 22:26
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

energy is mass, mass is energy, that is the point of Albert Einstein's equation.  
Only under some circumstances such as when light particles are weak , gravity creates the shortest path and light follows the path bc Newton never met Einstien :) 

The Multiverse Theory in a Galactic Body! Now that's sexy.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 15:33
imagine the "moment".  Are moments determined, or is there a bit of wiggle room for them?  Sometimes if (a particular) x happens, then (a particular) y happens.  Apparently necessarily.  But, it seems to me that a lot of moments are just ("indeterminate") noise, creating echoes of noise.  Maybe, when a living being is firing on all cylinders, something (in the mental realm) leads to a freedom called... excellence.


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2019 at 21:29
Quote How is light distorted by gravity? Gravity should not have an effect on light bc it supposedly has no mass
Light is affected by gravity. It's one of the phenomena used to detect distant bodies and so on. In theory, you could bend light around you and become invisible (a staple of sci-fi, it's how the Star Trek cloaking device works). Light is also affected by translucency and density, and also by wave interference.


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 11:50
If time and space are required to give us a "view" of our lives in an ordered way then without T/S does past, present,future exist all at once?
The past can be found in our memory we can think about the furure and all three can be in the same room together. In our own minds all three do exist simultaneously. When all three states are on the same page, it probably is a sign of high function thinking. What do we fret over after all? Only what has happened and what might happen. 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 18:58
I've noticed over the years that scientists, releasing supposedly new information/explanations very often use terms like "probably", "suggestive of" and so on.

Time is one thing that I don't know can be proven, unless you've been here before.

Personally, I'm a sceptic.(Not septic LOL)


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 11 Jun 2019 at 22:45
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I've noticed over the years that scientists, releasing supposedly new information/explanations very often use terms like "probably", "suggestive of" and so on.

Time is one thing that I don't know can be proven, unless you've been here before.

Personally, I'm a sceptic.(Not septic LOL)
Well, we don't want to sound like the American democrats do wee?Wink
We can dream in the Alternative section.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2019 at 07:59
I was disappointed that the show Madame Secretary seemed to kind of drizzle out.  Talk about alternate reality it seems like during Republican administration, television has to concoct a different political reality.  You had the successful show, West Wing, during the George W Bush administration.  Then you had Madame Secretary.

A noun is a person, place, thing or Idea.  So time, the present, past, future definitely exist, if only as an idea, or family of ideas.  Now one can ask whether time has any meaning outside of the structure of consciousness, perhaps not.  But if you look at Immanuel Kant, time is part of the structure of consciousness, and for Kant a necessary part of the structure of consciousness.



Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 14 Jun 2019 at 20:02
Vanuatu wrote
Quote “The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti

Especiallly when five countries have a power of veto.

Back to Time, regardless of whether it's linear, circular or cylindrical, how do you explain deja vu?


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 15 Jun 2019 at 01:28
How do you want to explain deja vu?

I think it is a momentary lapse in attention, that when you come back to attention, you feel like you have been there before, because you have, just a second ago you were staring out into space, [attention lapse], and now again you are staring out into space (so to speak).

But sometimes there is the feeling that I _dreamed_ this moment before, and that it was terrifying in the dream (anxiety-filled), but when I get to it, it is fine.  Like dreaming of a test, and being immensely unprepared for the test, but when you actually get to (a) moment like that, being reasonably prepared, not because of the dream, but because you are.  Public speaking could be the same thing, dreamt, and then when you get to an actual case, no big deal.  (or big deal, but no problem).

I do believe that dreams _can_be_ prophetic.  I think deja vu is an attention phenomena, not (necessarily) a time phenomena, but you (or others) can explain it as such if you want.

veto envy.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 01:51
Time is a structure that can't be escaped in material reality but it happens in dreams. I have vivid memories of three dreams that I had in childhood, they only happen in my recollection and I am not afraid of them anymore. 

Yet I can remember with clarity and detail as if they happened when I was awake.
Those memories seem as important as a Christmas morning that happens in 1975 in material reality.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 02:09
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu wrote
Quote “The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti

Especiallly when five countries have a power of veto.

Back to Time, regardless of whether it's linear, circular or cylindrical, how do you explain deja vu?
Right On!

Deja vu. 
IF past, present and future are simultaneous then an occasional "bleed through" could take the form of deja vu "didn't this already happen?" or of ESP "I think this will or won't happen" intuitively. 

Simultaneity is existence of God or (All That Is) without creation.  Changing states or oscillation provides a perception of linear progression. There is a theory that mostly agrees with relativity but is based on Absolute Simultaneity 
http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4275306/" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4275306/  

Plato in Timaeus "time and heaven [the world] came into being together that, having been created Simultaeneously [hama], if ever there was to be a dissolution to them, they may be dissolved Simultaneously [hama]. Hama being used here in the temporal sense, not in its etymological use "together."
http://https://books.google.com/books?id=ASMvhtdzEzAC&pg=PT10&lpg=PT10&dq=Simultaneity+in+creation&source=bl&ots=V_iDpYDs_D&sig=ACfU3U2q4I3mxWJy7NUr9SshFHCsKiUu1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiv4ufF4OviAhXGtlkKHc0HAgoQ6AEwCnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Simultaneity%20in%20creation&f=false" rel="nofollow - http://https://books.google.com/books?id=ASMvhtdzEzAC&pg=PT10&lpg=PT10&dq=Simultaneity+in+creation&source=bl&ots=V_iDpYDs_D&sig=ACfU3U2q4I3mxWJy7NUr9SshFHCsKiUu1w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiv4ufF4OviAhXGtlkKHc0HAgoQ6AEwCnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Simultaneity%20in%20creation&f=false


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 16 Jun 2019 at 06:32
The French Philosopher, Pierre Hadot, says that the _Timaeus_ is work in the Orphic spirit, versus modern science which is Promethean, interrogation of nature kind of thing.  Think of how Orpheus charmed people, animals, even the rocks and trees, whereas Prometheus stole fire from the gods and also stole the crafts, and gave them to man (and got punished for that, but eventually got out of punishment).  Someday, I will read the Timaeus (again) and maybe that time I could make heads and tails of it!

Timaeus is also said to be Pythagorean.  But, that is like saying, "one thing (we don't understand) is like another thing (we don't understand)".  I think understanding the _Timaeus_, or the _Parmenides_ or the Philebus_, are always in modernity, partial understandings.

One thing the Pythagoreans talked about was Kairios (or Kairos?), the notion of the right time, timeliness, seasonality.  For example, the ninja turtles, (Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael and Donatello) are torwards the beginning of the renaissance.  They had immense talents, but they were also in the right place and the right time, to become the household names they are today.  There are "lesser" renaissance artists who were later, and were elsewhere, where they couldn't get the full breeze in their sails so to speak.  They might of technically been artists as good as the giants, or even better, but they were planted in the shade and couldn't get as much sunshine as the others.

Is the renaissance a linear time phenomenon, or a circular time phenomenon?  Or little bit of A, little bit of 2?  


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 17 Jun 2019 at 04:21
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The French Philosopher, Pierre Hadot, says that the _Timaeus_ is work in the Orphic spirit, versus modern science which is Promethean, interrogation of nature kind of thing.  Think of how Orpheus charmed people, animals, even the rocks and trees, whereas Prometheus stole fire from the gods and also stole the crafts, and gave them to man (and got punished for that, but eventually got out of punishment).  Someday, I will read the Timaeus (again) and maybe that time I could make heads and tails of it!

Timaeus is also said to be Pythagorean.  But, that is like saying, "one thing (we don't understand) is like another thing (we don't understand)".  I think understanding the _Timaeus_, or the _Parmenides_ or the Philebus_, are always in modernity, partial understandings.

One thing the Pythagoreans talked about was Kairios (or Kairos?), the notion of the right time, timeliness, seasonality.  For example, the ninja turtles, (Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael and Donatello) are torwards the beginning of the renaissance.  They had immense talents, but they were also in the right place and the right time, to become the household names they are today.  There are "lesser" renaissance artists who were later, and were elsewhere, where they couldn't get the full breeze in their sails so to speak.  They might of technically been artists as good as the giants, or even better, but they were planted in the shade and couldn't get as much sunshine as the others.

Is the renaissance a linear time phenomenon, or a circular time phenomenon?  Or little bit of A, little bit of 2?  
Looking at the masterworks and the culmination of hundreds of years of fine tuning technique, paints and balance artists in Europe find the gestalt they believe would please God. The artists needs his own recognition but it comes only by way of glory to God in the Highest. 

Always the artists are going back to Creation, the Great Fall and epic scenes from the Bible. Even portraits of everyday people, especially self portraits imbue a Godliness in many instances, even in Hieronymus Bosch! (Brilliant Lunatic). 

So the past is being pulled out of the text and made immortal first for God then for beauty. If the Church did not dominant the lives of wealthy people during the Renaissance, suppose oil production was an actuality- then the art would have glorified the black gold. IMHO. 
Little bit of A, little bit of 2.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 18 Jun 2019 at 07:13
Yes, but Botticelli painted Venus on a half shell, the (Italian) Renaissance was a time of re-discovery of the Greek tradition, from Constantinople, although I think there also was a search started in the monasteries for Latin (pagan) manuscripts.  What is old becomes new again.

I think that the beautiful was done for patronage, not (necessarily) for God.  While a lot of people look at the Middle Ages and think that the Church ruled, I think that it was control of the aristocracy both inside and outside of the Church.  Holy men don't have mistresses, but ah, yes, Popes are aristocrats, and as aristocrats they do.  
Whether one's model of time is linear or cyclical, it is important to understand on a fundamental level, how another time is different, and how it is the same to our era.
For example, Calvin Coolidge's son did not wear socks when playing tennis, the shoes rubbed his feet and he got a sore, that sore became infected, and he died.  No matter how rich or powerful a family was in that era, if you got an infection, there was little they could do for you in those pre-antibiotic days.  That is one way how it was different than today.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 11:03
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Yes, but Botticelli painted Venus on a half shell, the (Italian) Renaissance was a time of re-discovery of the Greek tradition, from Constantinople, although I think there also was a search started in the monasteries for Latin (pagan) manuscripts.  What is old becomes new again.

I think that the beautiful was done for patronage, not (necessarily) for God.  While a lot of people look at the Middle Ages and think that the Church ruled, I think that it was control of the aristocracy both inside and outside of the Church.  Holy men don't have mistresses, but ah, yes, Popes are aristocrats, and as aristocrats they do.  
Whether one's model of time is linear or cyclical, it is important to understand on a fundamental level, how another time is different, and how it is the same to our era.
For example, Calvin Coolidge's son did not wear socks when playing tennis, the shoes rubbed his feet and he got a sore, that sore became infected, and he died.  No matter how rich or powerful a family was in that era, if you got an infection, there was little they could do for you in those pre-antibiotic days.  That is one way how it was different than today.
The version of marriage among the aristocracy, keeping money in the great family dynasties of Europe blatantly ignores beauty. Beauty was desired in Courtly love centuries before the houses of Hapsburg and Burgundy.  Beauty was more important to the artist but then who thinks of Venus as anything but beautiful and sexually attractive? 
Every representation of beauty in oil paint reflects the artist's mind. That he is evolved a bit beyond the subject and uses inspiration the blacksmith probably lacks, lets him take leaps into the future. He is less like his peers than most, so is the scientist, mathematician, shaman...


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 20 Jun 2019 at 12:58
Quote Deja vu. 
IF past, present and future are simultaneous then an occasional "bleed through" could take the form of deja vu "didn't this already happen?" or of ESP "I think this will or won't happen" intuitively.

Or how about my driving along a street, instinctively knowing where to turn, although I'd never been in the town before? Deja Vu? Inner hidden knowledge? I don't know.

My knowledge of a few words in many languages, deja vu? I've never really studied languages but I seem to instinctively know what some mean when I come across them.

I think we must accept that, to the best of our knowledge and that of science, time must be linear, but that doesn't explain some of the incredible technology known to our ancient ancestors, and then seemingly lost for millenia.


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 21 Jun 2019 at 10:20
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Quote Deja vu. 
IF past, present and future are simultaneous then an occasional "bleed through" could take the form of deja vu "didn't this already happen?" or of ESP "I think this will or won't happen" intuitively.

Or how about my driving along a street, instinctively knowing where to turn, although I'd never been in the town before? Deja Vu? Inner hidden knowledge? I don't know.

My knowledge of a few words in many languages, deja vu? I've never really studied languages but I seem to instinctively know what some mean when I come across them.

I think we must accept that, to the best of our knowledge and that of science, time must be linear, but that doesn't explain some of the incredible technology known to our ancient ancestors, and then seemingly lost for millenia.
Dozens of stories on coma or injury resulting is unbelievable neurological changes. I think what you describe is intuition, memory and something like a digital download. You must have an Operating System tweaked for language and logistics, skills you needed in your work. Memory and premonition, it seems very much like a digital system that runs our "function" programs and reboots us from a saved recovery point. 
The loss of knowledge may be directly proportionate to the limits of state control. Keeping everything hidden puts everything at risk. 
 
http://https://www.bbc.com/news/disability-45804613" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.bbc.com/news/disability-45804613

Hannah Jenkins speaks English in the morning and German in the afternoon. It's not a routine she chose to adopt - but something her brain requires her to do. It all started with a cycling accident.

Her partner Andrew Wilde was halfway up a mountain in the US state of Montana when he received a baffling text from Hannah.

He understood only two words - "dog" and "hospital" - but knew instinctively something was wrong.

The text was in German, a language Hannah had grown up with, but Andrew didn't really understand. They only ever communicated in English.



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 22 Jun 2019 at 01:54
Quote ...but that doesn't explain some of the incredible technology known to our ancient ancestors, and then seemingly lost for millennia.
Our ancestors were just as intelligent as we are, albeit less educated and often in a society that does not support learning. However, the idea of 'ancient technology' is hugely exaggerated. Certainly they evolved methods and tools for getting them through their lives, and yes, much of that has been forgotten due to progress, but it was in the context of their time. Building a pyramid requires planning and clever use of labour. Not the advice of some speculative alien race, who seem to be strangely keen on low technology monuments if you believe the conspiracists.


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 25 Jun 2019 at 14:43
Look up electrotype, it is a process (or the result of the process) used to copy objects on the atomic level, kind of the opposite of electrolysis, but it was used in the 19th and 20th century to copy museum objects, but it is basically lost now.  There are explanations in books, but the process is labor intensive, and nobody has taken the time to work out the kinks. 
When they were restoring the Parthenon, they analyzed the chisel marks on a cylinder and came up with the design of a 'new' more efficient chisel than what we have.  We could copy their artistic coins(?), but we don't have the craftsmen that can work on that level.  but, no, no tractor beams.


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 29 Jun 2019 at 21:44
Never came across electrotyping before but then the technology has been abandoned in favour of better methods during the 20th century (it was only invented in 1838). Better chisels? Really? Chisels come in all shapes and sizes today and given superior metallurgy and processes, I seriously doubt any significant advantage to those manufactured in antiquity - I imagine the skills of the users might be hard to replicate. As for coins, I see adverts every week from some obscure mint trying to sell gold coins struck in limited quantities to celebrate something or other. These days we can even colour them chemically - our ancestors couldn't. I've yet to see an ancient coin of superior creation to modern coins, whatever materials they might be made of.
 
Praising ancient skills is one thing but we should not get carried away with urban myths of superior technology from the past (why do we associate such mysteries to the past? It's not a modern phenomenon - the Roman Empire was lauded as golden age of mankind almost as soon as it faded from view).


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 30 Jun 2019 at 04:59
After a certain point in the evolution of Apple computers, they adopted dialogue boxes with rounded edges.  This is harder than one would think it would be, because the dialogue boxes are made to fit the length and height of the messages.  But Steve Jobs thought it would look cool and that nobody besides Apple would do it, and he was/is right.  PCs use rectangular dialogue boxes.  Let's say 200 years from now, and Apple, inc. is long gone, the programming for rounded corners is forgotten, is anybody going to work to do the programming?  No, it is not a matter of efficient, cost effective design.  And IMac will probably still be a desirable creation, but now because of its iconic design both outward and inward.
Marshall McLuhan said something like, 'art is obsolete technology."  Is a modern Honda civic, a superior creation to a DeLorean with its gullwing doors, or '50s American car with its fins and chrome?  Well, yes if all your going to use the car is for basic transportation.  The safety features alone make a Honda more worthwhile.

You are probably not familiar with ancient Greek coins of the Archaic and Classical eras, artistically they are superior, not all of them, but one must realize that that with all the little podunk poleis (city-states) sitting around the Mediterranean like frogs on lily-pads on a lake.  And the fact that it was the new hip technology at the time, just in sheer quantity meant there was artistic excellence.  So no, technologically or as far as efficiency was concerned, but as far as art and aesthetics is concern, well think of the Venus de Milo, but with the arms.

The chisel thing was mentioned in a special about the renovation of the Parthenon (Nova??).  They didn't go into it in depth, but I think that it was a matter of being developed for a certain job.

As far as copies are concerned, you can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all the time. electrotypes are extremely deceptive, but if you know what to look for (the edge and the weight for coins) they are not a problem.

There are electrotypes listed on vcoins.com, I don't think much of the modern medals (Enlightenment) made by the procedure posted there.


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 02:09
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Is time linear? or is it cyclical?  Or is it a bit of both (and how, and why?)

Mark Twain said something like history (time?) does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.

What does it mean to question whether time is linear or cyclical in a thread devoted
to alternate history????

Are there other alternatives???

How exciting to ponder your question!  Big smile

I will argue time can not be linear because that would be a two dimensional reality and our reality is at least three dimensional.  But if I am the dot from which all geometry begins, and I look around me, the line can begin and reach out from me in all directions.  It is like a ball of radiating energy and if each of us is such a dot radiating in all directions the lines of our radiation will cross and become two dimensional and multidimensional as all our lives cross.  Wacko

Oh my goodness how terrible exciting if history were written with that perspective and it might speak even better or our reality.  Not all of use go down in history but those that do stand for thoughts and their thoughts are carried and can become more complex concepts, or changed in such away to be the opposite of what they were.  If we trace history through this origin and movement and mixing of concepts, it would not be linear.  Cool


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 15:00
I think of the linear/cyclical question as more of a metaphor.  Time is like a river, but you can only go down stream.  Or is it?  Perhaps if you are water droplet, you could evaporate at the sea, and be carried to the source of the river, but you couldn't do it as you.  Does a droplet of rain remember the ocean, or the river, or the swamp?



Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 15:13
Quote Does a droplet of rain remember the ocean, or the river, or the swamp?

Wow, you're getting into deep water there.LOL

So, if a tree fell in the forest yesterday, did it really fall?

And, shouldn't it be the ocean remembering the drop of rain?

As I've said before, I believe that time is a human construct, and it must be linear as otherwise how could progress, of any kind, be measured? There must be chronology, musn't there?


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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 06 Jul 2019 at 21:12
Quote I will argue time can not be linear because that would be a two dimensional reality and our reality is at least three dimensional.
Interesting that you bring this up - someone was bound to - because Time is often considered a dimension of its own, something reinforced by popular culture and literature over the last hundred and fifty years in particular.
 
Time is not a dimension. It is a quality that is part of the structure of the existing universe, although some disagree exactly what comprises it. Increasingly there is evidence of a 'granular' quality to Time (sorry, I don't know the argument). According to Einstein, Time and Space are two aspects of the same thing.
 
Linear Time merely means that we experience one event after another, compliant with causality and other such scientific observations. I've already discussed my own views on Time and won't repeat them here (Feel free to read the earlier posts if you're interested). Cyclical Time is another form of Linear Time which includes a property to repeat the sequence of 'event space' (though not necessarily the same events - that's more philosophy than physics)
 
But considering philosophy - Does a droplet of rain remember the ocean, or the river, or the swamp?
 
I don't know. I seriously doubt it, because there is nothing I know of that records events or the impressions of them in mundane matter. I am reminded however of a theory from the eighties in which stone was supposed to record impressions of sound in their vicinity. Since no archeological recordings have come to light, perhaps this theory remains unproven. However, what can be said is that at quantum levels particles are not predictable. The Heisenberg uncertainty Principle states that you can never be certain of all qualities of a particle. Let's be honest. You can never be certain that you remember anything exactly. There was something else I wanted to say but.... err... Nope. Lost it.


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 01:24
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I think of the linear/cyclical question as more of a metaphor.  Time is like a river, but you can only go down stream.  Or is it?  Perhaps if you are water droplet, you could evaporate at the sea, and be carried to the source of the river, but you couldn't do it as you.  Does a droplet of rain remember the ocean, or the river, or the swamp?


Or may it remember the dinosaur that drank it and becoming part of the dinosaur before returning to the river?  

Great wisdom from Yellow River by I. P. Daily.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 02:04
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Time is a structure that can't be escaped in material reality but it happens in dreams. I have vivid memories of three dreams that I had in childhood, they only happen in my recollection and I am not afraid of them anymore. 

Yet I can remember with clarity and detail as if they happened when I was awake.
Those memories seem as important as a Christmas morning that happens in 1975 in material reality.

Oh, oh- time is an abstract that should not be confused with tangible reality.   It has no structure of its own.  Time is a concept created by man.  Mankind did not always have a sense of history.  Mankind in Europe did not always have a sense of progression, improving on manifested reality something better then the God manifest reality we are born into.  That progression, is an idea coming out of Greek and Roman classics that shifted the notion of who is manifesting reality, a god or man, during the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment.    

Clock time is really an abstract concept that no one could have before there were clocks and then what time is it when you travel into the east or west?  It was not until trains that time zones were invented.  Figuring out calendar time was very problematic and Galileo and the Pope played a big role in giving us a calendar that works.  

However, a constant is the changing of the seasons and the changes of the stars above and this is cyclical.  Clock time is cyclical too, using Babylon's (Sumerian)  base 60. Base 60 can also be used for figuring angles.  But how about native American consciousness that was seasonal and had nothing to do with our measurements of the calendar or clock time?  Can you image not knowing our sense of time and having a very different consciousness?  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 02:39
Caldwell,  How blooming exciting can a discussion get?

"Linear Time merely means that we experience one event after another, compliant with causality and other such scientific observations."

"The Heisenberg uncertainty Principle states that you can never be certain of all qualities of a particle. Let's be honest. You can never be certain that you remember anything exactly. There was something else I wanted to say but.... err... Nope. Lost it."

The first statement refers to how our brains work, not reality.  Big smile   Our brains are restricted much as a computer, but no where near as restricted as computers.  Our brains are aware of much more than we are conscious of.  Through our senses our brains pick up a lot of information and sort through it faster than a computer can, LOL you may have noticed our mouths can speak before our brains get control of our thoughts.  Tragically, we can also kill our own child before recognizing our child if we are carrying a gun and acting in fear of an unknown intruder.  Or we can be focused on our job and forget our baby  is the back seat of the car.  And our sense of time is totally different if we are the one sitting on the toilet or the one waiting to use it.  

Our brains can hold information without us having any awareness of that information.  A woman's attraction to a man, may have more to do her hormonal cycle than anything else.  When she is in heat, she will be more attracted to aggressive men and this can lead to affairs, because the plain Joe she is married to makes a better mate for daily living.  The mate we chose is also effected by smell, but we are not aware of smelling the person and judging if we share the same DNA of not.   

And like "The Heisenberg uncertainty Principle states that you can never be certain of all qualities of a particle".   I never know what how my right brain is going to mix ideas and reproduce them in written statement.  LOL


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 02:57
“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
 I don't know what that statement has to do with time, but I have a knee jerk reaction to it.

Cicero, thought we could come to agreement through the process of reasoning.   The problem is we lack the skills for being logical and tend to be mentally lazy.   It is my hope, as we learn more about the world and how our brains work, we will over come the ignorance that manifests so much trouble.  


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 07 Jul 2019 at 13:47
We do not see because we have eyes,
we have eyes because we see.
(Martin Heidegger)

The brain is a part of reality, not apart from reality.  
 There is some artifice involved with it too, though.

The droplet story is actually a Sufi story, the droplet
is very reluctant to leave the ocean (remembering only
the river and wanting to go back to it).  Eventually,
the droplet evaporates, and remembers at that point
that he has done this all before.  One would think
it is a reincarnation allegory, but I don't think the
sufis got into reincarnation.  The story is from an
Idries Shah collection, which admittedly doesn't narrow
it down much.


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 08 Jul 2019 at 22:11
Quote The first statement refers to how our brains work, not reality.
Correct. Earlier I outlined how I consider Time to be an illusion formed by the macro experience of quantum change around us. However, Reality is difficult to pin down, because it's always based on perception and interpretation. Since we experience the world through our senses, we have no other frame of reference. Yet fundamentally there are differences between what we accept as real and what science can describe. Light for instance. Light has no colour. The effects we attribute to colour are those of wavelengths. Colour is a trick played by our brain, painting in details of visual information in order to improve our perception of the outside world. It is now thought by some naturalists that bats 'see' with their ears, using their sonar data to add in details otherwise invisible. Some animals see magnetic field, infrared, electric fields, and so on. Their ideas of reality would vary from ours
Quote And like "The Heisenberg uncertainty Principle states that you can never be certain of all qualities of a particle".   I never know what how my right brain is going to mix ideas and reproduce them in written statement
Pen and paper are involved I understand :D


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http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 10 Jul 2019 at 14:08
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Time is a structure that can't be escaped in material reality but it happens in dreams. I have vivid memories of three dreams that I had in childhood, they only happen in my recollection and I am not afraid of them anymore. 

Yet I can remember with clarity and detail as if they happened when I was awake.
Those memories seem as important as a Christmas morning that happens in 1975 in material reality.
  
[quote]Oh, oh- time is an abstract that should not be confused with tangible reality.   It has no structure of its own.  Time is a concept created by man.  Mankind did not always have a sense of history.  Mankind in Europe did not always have a sense of progression, improving on manifested reality something better then the God manifest reality we are born into.  That progression, is an idea coming out of Greek and Roman classics that shifted the notion of who is manifesting reality, a god or man, during the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment.
   No confusion here we are spit balling.Wink
Mankind should include 20,000 year old culture in say Lascaux caves, yes? You have pregnant animals, someone was keeping track of time. Humans left different size hand prints, a signature to reflect on or find again in the future.

What did the Greeks/Romans say about who manifests reality?

What did the genius of the Renaissance reveal about who manifests reality?




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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2019 at 07:21
Aristotle, if I am correct, believed that time was dependent on change.  For Descartes who was during the scientific enlightenment, time was like a ticking clock with God preserving us during the seconds in-between.  Of course, this depends on the invention of and spreading of the mechanical clock in the Middle Ages.  According to Boorstin (The Discoverers?) a Chinese actually invented the clock, but it didn't go anywhere, because in Chinese society, why would you want one?

I think that on some level, God manifests reality for the ancients and moderns.  There might be some philosophers who are more atheistic about it, also some that say reality was(is) always there.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 00:22
Originally posted by Athena Athena wrote:

“The United Nations is the biggest joke of this century. If each one is trying to assert his own rights there, how can there be a United Nations?” UG Krishnamurti
 I don't know what that statement has to do with time, but I have a knee jerk reaction to it.

Cicero, thought we could come to agreement through the process of reasoning.   The problem is we lack the skills for being logical and tend to be mentally lazy.   It is my hope, as we learn more about the world and how our brains work, we will over come the ignorance that manifests so much trouble.  

LOL
Krishnamurti is my signature quote. Everyone can add this from the Member Control Panel Page. It will be on all my posts. The others have them too. Find a good quote for yourself!


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 20 Jul 2019 at 03:09
Watched the movie 'Groundhog day' with Bill Murray and Andie McDowell.  It is the supreme movie for depicting and discussing Nietzsche's eternal recurrence of the same.  Murray is caught in a 'time loop,' doomed to relive groundhog day (February 2nd) at Paxutany over and over.


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 22 Jul 2019 at 21:20
Quote What did the Greeks/Romans say about who manifests reality?
 
Time by itself does not exist... It must not be claimed that anyone can sense time apart from the movement of things.
Lucretius
(Roman poet quoted in New Scientist article "The Time Delusion" 6th July 2019)


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Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 02:09
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote What did the Greeks/Romans say about who manifests reality?
 
Time by itself does not exist... It must not be claimed that anyone can sense time apart from the movement of things.
Lucretius
(Roman poet quoted in New Scientist article "The Time Delusion" 6th July 2019)
Thanks for the link it's good article, the last piece relates to Simultaneity IMO.
I'm not sure it perfectly illustrates a lack of free will but it tells us that the body has an independent intelligence of which we are unaware.

"Neuroscience has also chipped in. Around 30 years ago psychologist Benjamin Libet discovered that if you ask people to make voluntary movements, their brains initiate the movement before they become consciously aware of any intention to move. Other experiments have since been performed along similar lines, leading many neuroscientists to conclude that free will is an illusion."

Read more:  https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028122-500-the-grand-delusion-whos-in-control/#ixzz5uQ2JCkj5 - The grand delusion: Who's in control? | New Scientist  
The grand delusion: Blind to bias
LOL



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 23 Jul 2019 at 21:07
Free will is an illusion eh? So who exactly gives me instructions at work? A figment of my imagination I can safely ignore? Or perhaps a superior form of life known collectively as 'managers' who quite obviously hail from a different planet? I shall investigate further....

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Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 00:22
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Free will is an illusion eh? So who exactly gives me instructions at work? A figment of my imagination I can safely ignore? Or perhaps a superior form of life known collectively as 'managers' who quite obviously hail from a different planet? I shall investigate further....
Maybe you are the employee and the manager ?  
Maybe the only thing separating you from the manager is a stream of consciousness unique to yourself, not a soul but the very newest part, of all that you have ever been. 

I feel like I have the other complex from the article, lol. I feel like I'm controlling everything.
These particular findings are interesting and encouraging, science finally crawling out of the dogma, but not exactly tracking with my own ideas about consciousness.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 24 Jul 2019 at 21:41

Employee and manager? There's plenty of colleagues who'll nod knowingly at that one :D



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Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 25 Jul 2019 at 16:32
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Employee and manager? There's plenty of colleagues who'll nod knowingly at that one :D

yes, an international phenomenon. :)


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 14 Aug 2019 at 13:39
Ever heard of Edgar Cayce? He was a farmer in the Kentucky born 1887 and to many he was a psychic medium. In the 1970's Jane Roberts did something like Cayce and what she came up with is part of modern occultism or new age religion. Robert's books describe a Simultaneity that allows present beliefs to create existence in the future, as though what you saw acted out on a stage, your beliefs about reality  are destined to become a reality.

Utopia has been a part of the story of humans, so have ideas about freedom from suffering. The loss of the pristine earth makes us sad, naturally the optimist wants to believe the world is good and that Atlantis is like legacy memory in a pc game. You can play Pong, or Donkey Kong on a supremely advanced system. Humans have memory systems just like game characters. If you don't get uploads you can't fully interact with the environment in a game system.

Can anyone indulge the idea of this life as a virtual existence? 
A material world viewed by a Non Physical Being that is a composite of many material experiences, higher levels of evolution or bad software, needed lots of patches and upgrades. Atlantis or UFO's could have the elemental human legacy to project that virtual universe. Or not.



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 01:36
Quote Robert's books describe a Simultaneity that allows present beliefs to create existence in the future, as though what you saw acted out on a stage, your beliefs about reality  are destined to become a reality.
I think therefore it shall be? I'm in serious danger of injury right now, probably caused either by uncontrolled laughter or an irate librarian. Thinking makes no difference. It's an internal mechanism of brain, not some spiritually-connected powerhouse of quantum realities. Unless Roberts gets out of her chair and starts work on her imagined future, it remains fantasy. Unless of course she communicates her desires by means of publishing and hence inspires someone else to get up and do something real, but then, that person gets the credit. She doesn't.
 
It's like when I was young. I dreamt of becoming a rock star... Yes I know, but I did. It was not going to happen because the music business did not know I existed. later I left work, eventually found something close to a stable band, and went on the road with the hard workin' rock band, lived the Spinal Tap dream, and eventually got nowhere. But, in that period of actually doing something, there were always those close calls and ever so slightly missed opportunities. Now? Well, I don't dream of rock stardom anymore - learned my lesson there - but neither is the music business likely to discover my talent for making loud noises. Things only happen if you make them happen.
 
Quote The loss of the pristine earth makes us sad
Oh no, more risk of injury :D Human beings are far too self interested to worry about pristine Earth. In Brazil, there are areas of amazonian jungle reserved for the native inhabitants, who claim the areas are too small. Outsiders have a different view. Illegal logging and farming still goes on, and I saw an interview with one Brazilian farmer who was quite adamant that the natives had no right to deprive her of fresh arable pasture.
 
But then this sort of attitude is nothing new or limited to Brazil. The Wild West was more or less a monumental land grab at the expense of anyone who happened to be already there.
 
Quote Can anyone indulge the idea of this life as a virtual existence? 
Okay, serious now. There already is some thinking in this direction because at least one theory tells us that the universe is a sort of virtual existence described by information at its periphery. No, I don't understand that either. But then, quantum theory includes the peculiar idea that existence is only real because we observe it. Nope, don't understand that either. But thirdly, we are of course trapped within our own internal perceptions. We do not 'see' the world as it is. Our vision is an image rendered within the brain from information received, coloured and interpreted internally. Since the universe has no actual appearance as such - visible light is merely a subset of radiated energy like any other - then strictly speaking we are as individuals existing in a virtual world, or perhaps more correctly, a virtual conception of something beyond ourselves. Hmmm... I think I understand that... AHA! Therefore according to Roberts the world is as real as I want it to be! Success!


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Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 02:02
LOL
Just don't call me Fredo.
Clearly you have already thought about this. This conversation is not over!


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 04:06
MIT Neuroscience research created models based on the theoretical connections between Psychology- Information Theory, and thermodynamics. 

Why wouldn't the neurological system be subject to universal laws? 

The overall entropy of the universe increases during photosynthesis as the sunlight dissipates, even as the plant prevents itself from decaying by maintaining an orderly internal structure. ... As entropy production increases, so does this ratio: A system's behavior becomes more and more “irreversible.”Jan 22, 2014
https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-of-the-origin-of-life-20140122/ -



Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 17 Aug 2019 at 21:10
So the researchers at MIT came to a conclusion after much experiment, calculation, and rational thinking that nothing lasts forever? I suppose someone had to prove it sooner or later. Whilst I am in the region of considering that life is an extension of our universe's physical existence and behaviour - we are after all composed of exactly the same stuff as everything else - linking this to thermodynamic causality seems a little odd. It's like describing a steam engine existing because it functions rather than having been designed and built at a factory.

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Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 18 Aug 2019 at 01:39
It does seem odd. Psychological entropy fits better in the second thread. Here open systems and time fit better.
Yes, MIT guy is saying that entropy is the decay and death of eventually everything. Time starts and ends with increasing velocity in an open system. The dissipation rates of energy among all things living and non living differ and forces shape structure. 
Systems with certain particles driven by electromagnetic waves have an ability to reverse dissipation of energy. That would be in Wave form, Momentum and Light.
The need for biological reproduction and other pressures lead to evolutionary changes. The more novel a situation the greater dissipation of energy in a closed system. Forcing more creative, imaginative strategy and tools in closed systems. 
The big deal about MIT guy's research is that he sees in his formula that a mechanism must exist to reduce the entropy in open systems like solar system and driven adaptation to, I dunno maybe replicate earth? 
With an Atlantis, one continent- all theme park. 

http://https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-of-the-origin-of-life-20140122/ - http://https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-of-the-origin-of-life-20140122/
http://whatislife.stanford.edu/LoCo_files/What-is-Life.pdf - “What Is Life?”  the eminent quantum physicist Erwin Schrödinger argued that this is what living things must do. A plant, for example, absorbs extremely energetic sunlight, uses it to build sugars, and ejects infrared light, a much less concentrated form of energy. The overall entropy of the universe increases during photosynthesis as the sunlight dissipates, even as the plant prevents itself from decaying by maintaining an orderly internal structure.


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: caldrail
Date Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 23:14
Quote Systems with certain particles driven by electromagnetic waves have an ability to reverse dissipation of energy. That would be in Wave form, Momentum and Light.
Not possible. The Second Law of Thermodynamics interferes with that idea. Momentum is a fixed value derived from mass and velocity. That's in absolute terms, not relative. Waves and particles are manifestations of energy, momentum is not, since it covers kinetic and potential energy of a mass moving with a known velocity.
 
Quote Time starts and ends with increasing velocity in an open system.
That does not comply with known physical laws. Since the nature of Time is not properly understood (Scientific American devoted an entire issue to articles about it) I don't see how you can assert such things.


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Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 02:44
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote Systems with certain particles driven by electromagnetic waves have an ability to reverse dissipation of energy. That would be in Wave form, Momentum and Light.
Not possible. The Second Law of Thermodynamics interferes with that idea. Momentum is a fixed value derived from mass and velocity. That's in absolute terms, not relative. Waves and particles are manifestations of energy, momentum is not, since it covers kinetic and potential energy of a mass moving with a known velocity.
It is possible and that it is exactly what occurs. Momentum attaches to photons-
"photon interacts as a unit in collisions or when absorbed, rather than as an extensive wave. Massive quanta, like electrons, also act like macroscopic particles—something we expect, because they are the smallest units of matter. Particles carry momentum as well as energy. Despite photons having no mass, there has long been evidence that EM radiation carries momentum. (Maxwell and others who studied EM waves predicted that they would carry momentum.) It is now a well-established fact that photons do have momentum. In fact, photon momentum is suggested by the photoelectric effect, where photons knock electrons out of a substance. Figure 1 shows macroscopic evidence of photon momentum."
  http://https://courses.lumenlearning.com/physics/chapter/29-4-photon-momentum/ - http://https://courses.lumenlearning.com/physics/chapter/29-4-photon-momentum/
Quote Time starts and ends with increasing velocity in an open system.
That does not comply with known physical laws. Since the nature of Time is not properly understood (Scientific American devoted an entire issue to articles about it) I don't see how you can assert such things.

Flow rate and it's relation to velocity is used in medical fields, closed systems. Without friction velocity increases in open systems. Momentum is not a fixed value. Open systems, nature of time is not properly understood, this is Alternative thread.

MAKING CONNECTIONS: CONSERVATION OF MOMENTUM

Not only is momentum conserved in all realms of physics, but all types of particles are found to have momentum. We expect particles with mass to have momentum, but now we see that massless particles including photons also carry momentum.

 



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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 14:03
F=mv, mass unless acted upon by other forces, has momentum, however, I think it is fair to say that force "is not" momentum.  Although I admit that someone who actually knows about physics might correct me.  I am fairly ignorant of physics, which of course gives me as much right to pontificate about it as anyone else has.Wink

That raises an interesting question, what do actuality and potentiality have to do with time??


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 20 Aug 2019 at 23:23
Might we discuss in the Alternative section, new theories about the Universal Laws of Physics?
These ideas are changing all the time and dogmatic ideas are being cast aside. I cannot technically appreciate the equations but I can certainly listen to experts and accept their guidance about possibilities.

Quote what do actuality and potentiality have to do with time?
 
Um, aliens? or Aquaman? I've read lots of comics, I'm qualified.
Wink 


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 21 Aug 2019 at 01:12
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 I am fairly ignorant of physics, which of course gives me as much right to pontificate about it as anyone else has.Wink
You trusted us with physics and our limited skill set in "time lineal or cyclical?". Now you will have to make another dogmatic admission.(there's room for a small one, said the actress to the bishop.)

Humans violate the second law of thermodynamics ,right?
Therefore, evolutionary theory claims that organisms get better ordered over time. The second law of thermodynamics holds that entropy increases; that is, systems over time become more disordered. Therefore, both evolutionary theory and thesecond law of thermodynamics cannot both be correct.Jan 9, 2010
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12052-009-0195-3 -



Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 05:29
Seems like there is an equivocation about the word "system." and that there is a belief that one can conflate biology to physics, which is at least not yet true.  Biology deals with living systems, and physics deals with nonliving systems.  It may be possible to address life and mind through quantum physics (Roger Penrose does), but not on a mechanistic model.

F=MA, not F=MV, A=(v squared), my mistake.

Physics is a subset of philosophy, Newton was the chair for natural philosophy.  Not all philosophies that discuss time are the natural philosophy.  Therefore, one can talk about time without having to recourse to physics.  Since Galileo, "scientific" natural philosophy has been written "in mathematics."  But, that is not the only way to understand time and reality.

It is entertaining to watch a public television special on Einstein or Heisenberg or whomever, but personally I wouldn't mistake that entertainment for knowledge.  To me, physics gets grounded out in doing things, physically, or in a rigorous (mathematical) conceptual way.  Einstein had his thought experiments, I can pretend to follow his thought experiments, but not really, and I can't develop new ones, or even old ones other people have developed.  To me, it is like Miyagi sensei (Pat Morita, Karate Kid), says, "walk on this side of the road, okay, walk on that side of the road, okay, walk in the middle, squish."  I have a lot of respect for people on the other side of the street, but I worry about the kids playing in the middle of the street.

But, of course most kids play in the street and nothing ever happens to them, or at least nothing serious.

about actual, and potential.  Actual is a way of saying something "is," but not only that it is, but that it is now, and has a quality of persisting.  It implication that it existed indefinitely before, and will exist indefinitely after.  It also implies that what "happened," what manifested, was not a phantasm, it was caused, and has causal effects.

The ancient pre-Socratic philosopher Parmenides, said, to paraphrase him, is is, is not, is not.  How do you go from something that exists, to something that doesn't exist, or from something that does not exist, to something that does?  How can you think of something coming to be, and something passing away?  Well for Aristotle (who also talks about actuality), you can talk about something _potentially_ there _before_ its existence, or one can talk about something that is actual passing away, decaying, loosing its potential.

In English, we have the subjunctive tense, "if I were to go to the store, I would buy a candy bar."  It is a counterfactual condition.  'I didn't go to the store, but if I had go to the store, O would have bought a candy bar."  This makes no sense the speakers of languages that don't have subjunctive cases, like Vietnamese.  A subjunctive-less speaker would be confused by the statement, saying "what do you mean?  You did not go to the store..."  There is an advantage to this way of thinking, the subjuncitive-less speaker doesn't spend his time worrying about the way it could have been (wasted time or potential), they are busy making it happen now, building a new way of life, like, say some Vietnamese had to do as refugees from Vietnam.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 12:32
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

It is entertaining to watch a public television special on Einstein or Heisenberg or whomever, but personally I wouldn't mistake that entertainment for knowledge.
Entertainment is knowledge, it obviously is for us here. Beer

 
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

To me, physics gets grounded out in doing things, physically, or in a rigorous (mathematical) conceptual way.
Who has time for that? A grain of understanding in expanding existence is an increment of evolution. What else is there to do with a brain that keeps asking questions?

Quote
In English, we have the subjunctive tense, "if I were to go to the store, I would buy a candy bar."  It is a counterfactual condition.  'I didn't go to the store, but if I had go to the store, O would have bought a candy bar."  This makes no sense the speakers of languages that don't have subjunctive cases, like Vietnamese.  A subjunctive-less speaker would be confused by the statement, saying "what do you mean?  You did not go to the store..."  There is an advantage to this way of thinking, the subjuncitive-less speaker doesn't spend his time worrying about the way it could have been (wasted time or potential), they are busy making it happen now, building a new way of life, like, say some Vietnamese had to do as refugees from Vietnam.
The grammar is necessary for the hypothetical thought? 

Can a subjunctive less speaker tell me about a period in time years earlier when they didn't get the job they wanted?


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2019 at 03:43
 Think of grammar as a tool, if you don't have a specific tool, you can usually find something to improvise.  But, there is always a first time, when the 'job' is only vaguely conceived and a new tool has to be developed to address the issue.  Say, Newton's _Principia Mathematica_.  Newton or Einstein write something that it takes the cutting edge experts of the day a lot of effort and attention to get a clue of what exactly is going on with the new theory.  But, it is hard enough to get there in the first place, you can translate, say, Western philosophy (Plato, Descartes, Heidegger) into Japanese, but as far as writing it in the first place, that probably required the language it was originally written in.  Although someone like Descartes or Leibniz wrote in more than one language, depending on the audience.

"Can a subjunctive less speaker tell me about a period in time years earlier when they didn't get the job they wanted?"

Yes, but they probably won't winge on it forever like a woke college graduate.  They will move on, and try something new.  


Posted By: toyomotor
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2019 at 12:48
Confused And all of this has what to do with time?

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“The biggest surprise in a man’s life is old age.”


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2019 at 13:11
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Confused And all of this has what to do with time?
It is a new quantum world, in 1948 Claude Shannon wrote about the "bit" and the binary language that underpinned the computer age. If the physics are refined in one area such as in the second Law of Thermodynamics that changes the way 'Time' is understood. New ideas about closed and open systems, entropy in living and non-living things perhaps changes the conception of time, dividing Time into micro states rather than moments. 

Good article about Shannon and the co development of computer language and message encryption during WW2. Seems like a good example of shifting perspective making the path of inquiry direct and revolutionary.

http://https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/claude-e-shannon-founder/ - http://https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/claude-e-shannon-founder/


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2019 at 13:54
I don't know, what _does_ all of this have to do with time?  Heidegger's most famous work was Being and Time, and at the end of his career, he wrote a short work called, On Time and Being.  Kinda circular....  Descartes wrote Meditations on First Philosophy, "First Philosophy" is Metaphysics, Metaphysics deals with, being and, with time.  Newton deals with time, so does Einstein, Leibniz and Plato.

How you think of time (or anything else), determines what can be thought about time.  And there is no more basic "level" of thinking than at the level of language.  

Heidegger talks about unconcealment and concealment, every revealing is also a concealing.  If you go down one path, you cannot go down another (at least not at the same time).  I think, say, DaVinci's science benefitted because he did not have a (scholastic) education, every advantage can be a disadvantage, and every disadvantage is an advantage.  Students of Ancient Greek language have an advantage these days, because it used to be assumed that you had to take Latin before Greek, that meant that students of Greek used to have Latin filters that predetermined what they thought.  Now,
without that filter they are exposed to a stranger, more bizarre and more wondrous form of Greek, and they are learning stuff that we never knew before, including stuff about time, for philosophy and science starts with Greece.  So, V, you talk about the path of inquiry being "direct and revolutionary," but  a "good" example of direct and revolutionary was China's Cultural Revolution which was a tremendous destruction of traditional Chinese culture, and with that traditional ways of looking at very basic concepts, including for time. 

Interesting article about Claude Shannon.  I don't 'like' the popular usage of the term "information," how he uses it though is in a technical fashion.  What I mean by that, is that one could broadcast a drone of sound, and that would be "information," but of no aesthetic or knowledge character.  The way people use "information" is as if it was a neutral term, unlike wisdom or knowledge, or even beauty.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 25 Aug 2019 at 23:13
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't know, what _does_ all of this have to do with time?  Heidegger's most famous work was Being and Time, and at the end of his career, he wrote a short work called, On Time and Being.  Kinda circular....  Descartes wrote Meditations on First Philosophy, "First Philosophy" is Metaphysics, Metaphysics deals with, being and, with time.  Newton deals with time, so does Einstein, Leibniz and Plato.
Biology makes it possible to date events in human/animal/earth history. Thinking of time in micro stages rather than moments.

Quote Interesting article about Claude Shannon.  I don't 'like' the popular usage of the term "information," how he uses it though is in a technical fashion.  What I mean by that, is that one could broadcast a drone of sound, and that would be "information," but of no aesthetic or knowledge character.  The way people use "information" is as if it was a neutral term, unlike wisdom or knowledge, or even beauty.
Quote How you think of time (or anything else), determines what can be thought about time.  And there is no more basic "level" of thinking than at the level of language.
Infants communicate without language so do animals. Unless everything is language?

There is a separation between spoken words and gestures. Or words and intuition, or words and eye contact, or words and your close relative having a heart attack miles away from where you are. 
People have been know to "know" things and impart information without language. This 'Information' would be of the droning sound variety, which_ is_ information- sound, pitch, tone and duration. Not much more exciting than 01.






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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: franciscosan
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 12:20
I guess I would probably answer that thinking is about concepts and ideas and consciousness.  There is, however, the whole world of the subconscious/unconscious, of which we are vaguely aware of, time and place function on that level as well.  The South American that stands too close (or you from their perspective who are cold and stand too far away).  People who are early to parties (or late, or right on them).  The joke about Mañana, someone says Mañana, but it will never be mañana because tomorrow never comes.

I mean a wink is communication, but it is not conceptual.  So yes communications can be of a more basic level than communications, but I am talking about thought.  Of course it is quite possible to misunderstand, say, a wink.


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 12:44
It's possible to misunderstand the nature of even less than a wink. Someone can enter a room and change the entire sense of being there, for better or worse.

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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)


Posted By: Vanuatu
Date Posted: 27 Aug 2019 at 01:05
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Quote
Quote The loss of the pristine earth makes us sad
Oh no, more risk of injury :D Human beings are far too self interested to worry about pristine Earth. In Brazil, there are areas of amazonian jungle reserved for the native inhabitants, who claim the areas are too small. Outsiders have a different view. Illegal logging and farming still goes on, and I saw an interview with one Brazilian farmer who was quite adamant that the natives had no right to deprive her of fresh arable pasture.
 
But then this sort of attitude is nothing new or limited to Brazil. The Wild West was more or less a monumental land grab at the expense of anyone who happened to be already there.
The Wild West Brazilian land-grab? WTF?
 
Quote Can anyone indulge the idea of this life as a virtual existence? 
Okay, serious now. There already is some thinking in this direction because at least one theory tells us that the universe is a sort of virtual existence described by information at its periphery. No, I don't understand that either. But then, quantum theory includes the peculiar idea that existence is only real because we observe it. Nope, don't understand that either. But thirdly, we are of course trapped within our own internal perceptions. We do not 'see' the world as it is. Our vision is an image rendered within the brain from information received, coloured and interpreted internally. Since the universe has no actual appearance as such - visible light is merely a subset of radiated energy like any other - then strictly speaking we are as individuals existing in a virtual world, or perhaps more correctly, a virtual conception of something beyond ourselves. Hmmm... I think I understand that... AHA! Therefore according to Roberts the world is as real as I want it to be! Success!
:D
:D Your idea of what your images are based on take place in an existence that is non existent upon close inspection! :D :D :D


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Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)



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