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Problems with Spanish pronounciation?

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drgonzaga View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2009 at 22:42
PS:
 
 
La verda ye que seique l'asturianu del ocidente ye mas puru que'l restu y caltien delles menes y carauteristiques que les otres variedaes perdieran cuantaya pola influyencia del castellanu. Na zona central, amas, sacantes delles partes de les cuenques (que ya non toes) l'amestau ye lo mas asemeyau al asturianu que se siente.
 
Asturia, que guapa che
 
The above reads:
 
La verdad es que se que el Asturiano del ocidente es mas puro que el resto y tal tiene maneras y caracteristicas que las otras variedades perdieron a causa de la influencia del Castellano. En la zona central, en ademas, excluyendo a los valles (que no son todos) lo hablado es lo mas  semejante al Asturiano que se siente.
 
Asturias que bella eres.
 
If anyone tries to read Las Siete Partidas of King Alfonso in its original script you will realize that "Castillian" itself is a variant later conformed into a straight-jacket by 18th century Academicians--damned Bourbons!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2009 at 01:21
Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

... Understanding native speakers of both Spanish and Greek is also hard because they speak like machine guns but I am sure English is also the same to a non-native speaker.
...
 
 
Very true LOL
 
What called me the attention, after I mastered some english and could addapt to the rythm of speach, it was how SLOW English was spoken in comparison to Spanish.
I think the reason is the following. I believe people think at the same speed everywhere, but speech has the challenge to keep in tune with thinking. In English, there is a lot of ambiguity in sounds, so people has to make the effort to pronounce with more care, so the rest understand. In Spanish, redundacy is built in the language itself (you can chop words and melting together as you wish; you can chop the pronoun and still everything makes sense), so the problem becomes how to transmit it at the rythm of though. And that means speaking faster, and in a language with so many rolled "r", it sounds like machine guns LOL
 


Edited by pinguin - 17 Jul 2009 at 01:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2009 at 03:15
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

What called me the attention, after I mastered some english and could addapt to the rythm of speach, it was how SLOW English was spoken in comparison to Spanish.


This is something that has taken me a long time to overcome while trying to gain a more natural rhythm of speaking. I can imitate a Castillian speech pattern, speed included, but my grammar suffers a little bit When I take it down a step, my grammar gets closer to perfect, but it's not quite as fast. My guess is that my brain is used to processing language at a certain speed, and needs to learn how to work with a foreign language at a speed faster than my native language. I guess it's all the fun of learning a new language WinkLOL

In my ESL classes, I tell Spanish speakers to slow down a little when they try to speak English because they are rushing through their words and it severely hampers their ability to correctly enunciate. I had a student from the Dominican Republic that always tried to speak extremely fast in English. She told me that in her country, speaking slowly is equal to having a slow brain, or be stupid. After learning about the speed of English, she slowed down and many of her difficulties diminished.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2009 at 03:43
Interesting thing.
 
Yes, After suffering the pain myself,  I developed my own wild theories about how the brain addapts to a different language, that perhaps may help.
 
First, the slow rythm of undertanding of a foreigner is based in the nasty custom to translate. Translation consumes almost all the resources of the brain while the poor student tries to catch up with the discurse. Translating at the speed of the speech is a very hard task that only a few can master, and that's why professional translators are well paid. Nope, that is not the way to go.
 
Second, to avoid translation one should memorize patterns, ratter than grammar or single words. Students should learn how to say thinks in the foreign language in real time. That means, to learn the standard way to question and to answer in the most common tasks of daily life.
 
For instance. A student don't need to know the verbs and times of a phrase when all the thing it needs is to know "where is the bathroom" (Donde esta el bano) "what bus do I take to go to 7th street and 2nd avenue?" (que bus tomo para llegar a la calle dos con la segunda avenida), etc. Memorized patterns will make those brains tortured by grammar and conventions to rush. After all, that's the way kids learn languages, isn't?
 
Just a though.
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 17 Jul 2009 at 03:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2009 at 04:06
Well. To summarize your point a student of a foreign language should try to think in this language. That would b the best way to learn. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2009 at 04:20
Bus? Bus? In Mexico you await the camion in popular parlance, but in the Caribbean, it's la guagua! (sounds like wawa)...by the way "bus" is really autobus or omnibus and that shortened form touted by Pinguin is a colloquailism [there are accents involved but I did not put them in so as to avoid those tildes that pop up].
 
And don't believe you might actually get a response for that bath he's touting since it should be either "el cuarto de bano" or simply "el retrete" unless you are in a real funky town. In Mexico it is even called el cuarto de aseo. Wonder if P uses a traje de bano?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2009 at 04:36
All good points Pinguin, but I stopped translating years ago. Spanish pops into my head the same way English does. Speaking quickly I can still form a 90% coherent and fluid sentence, but the little details like el/la and por/para sometimes slip through the cracks, whereas if I were to speak at a more English language speed, I make almost no errors.

And Sarmat - that's advice I give to my students. I tell them to think about their daily routines in English rather than in their native language. That way the brain becomes used to thinking in English rather than having to translate. It's one of the things that I do; I narrate my life in Spanish when I get bored.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2009 at 04:58
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Bus? Bus? In Mexico you await the camion in popular parlance, but in the Caribbean, it's la guagua! (sounds like wawa)...by the way "bus" is really autobus or omnibus and that shortened form touted by Pinguin is a colloquailism [there are accents involved but I did not put them in so as to avoid those tildes that pop up].
 
And don't believe you might actually get a response for that bath he's touting since it should be either "el cuarto de bano" or simply "el retrete" unless you are in a real funky town. In Mexico it is even called el cuarto de aseo. Wonder if P uses a traje de bano?
 
Of course. I Speak coloquial Chilean, which has more in common with Argentina or Peru rather than with far away countries like Mexico or Cuba.
 
And, indeed, la guagua means in Chile "baby" (Quechua), rather than bus. And for an autobus we usually use the terms micro (short from microbus or small bus) and liebre (hare, that rushes LOL).
And, well, if Mexicans don't understand "bano" I have many ways to express the same idea, some more coloquial than others, and I bet they will end understanding LOLLOL
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 17 Jul 2009 at 05:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2009 at 11:20
On the speed issue, isn't it a pretty universal characteristic that city dwellers speak faster than rural ones? It's certainly true in English societies, and even shows at the micro level in distinguishing between the patterns of speech in, say, Southampton as against the New Forest, or Newcastle against Northumbria gnerally.
 
Following drgonzaga's point about the Americas picking up the western versions of Spanish, it's also true that American English accents are more similar to western English ones (overlooking the areas like Charleston, which picks up from Scots-Irish). Americans imitating English accents almost always end up sounding like Londoners.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2009 at 18:56
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by eaglecap eaglecap wrote:

... Understanding native speakers of both Spanish and Greek is also hard because they speak like machine guns but I am sure English is also the same to a non-native speaker.
...


 

 

Very true LOL

 

What called me the attention, after I mastered some english and could addapt to the rythm of speach, it was how SLOW English was spoken in comparison to Spanish.

I think the reason is the following. I believe people think at the same speed everywhere, but speech has the challenge to keep in tune with thinking. In English, there is a lot of ambiguity in sounds, so people has to make the effort to pronounce with more care, so the rest understand. In Spanish, redundacy is built in the language itself (you can chop words and melting together as you wish; you can chop the pronoun and still everything makes sense), so the problem becomes how to transmit it at the rythm of though. And that means speaking faster, and in a language with so many rolled "r", it sounds like machine guns LOL

 



That is an interesting and it and makes sense but how about the difficulty in translation:

A little English humor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6D1YI-41ao&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ejihadwatch%2Eorg%2F&feature=player_embedded   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2009 at 05:35
I had no trouble with Spanish trilled "r's", but my former home town (Cabo Rojo) pronounced both the initial and trilled "r" as a glottal sound, similar to the Dutch "g". This made "carro" sound like Kah-ghwo, and Cabo "Rrojo" sound like "Cabo Ghwojo". The Portuguese "l" and "ll"still give me trouble. THe Portuguese "l" sound requires you to wrap your tongue around the sound. That Spanish speakers have troubles with other Portuguese sounds, such as "j" (softer, but close to an English "j") and "x", a "sh" sound which doesn't exist in Spanish. Other than basic vocabulary (segunda, terca with soft C, for Lunes, martes, etc., frango for "pollo", peru for "pavo", janela fpr "ventana"), Portuguese has more vowels, and "O" comes out sounding like a "u". Puertorrican and Dominican Spanish speakers eat their verb endings, making past tense participles sound close to Portuguese. (Estao, tumbao, echao, etc). Learning each language's sounds is probably the most important step in language learning, but one that is widely ignored when the alphabet is latin based, because the familiar letters trick our subconscious into thinking that it knows the sound. False cognates (v.g., embarazar) abound in all latin based languages. Oriental languages have their own traps, often because various competing romanization systems exist for the same languages. Vietnam adopted the quoc ngu, a latin alphabet, which makes that language somewhat easier to study, but the tones and certain letters give all westerners trouble. "ng" and "nh" are examples. Ironic that we can "sing" but we can't easily "gnis".

Regarding Rosetta Stone materials. I have used both Vietnamese and Chinese, and consider them over-rated. They are an excellent vocabulary builder, but I prefer a more formal system for teaching grammar. I prefer the U.S. State Department's Foreign Language Institute's materials for language teaching, and there is a site on line that includes some of the older materials. The text can be downloaded, but the tapes can only be listened to on line.  Try:  http://www.fsi-language-courses.org/Content.php

Finally, regarding Spanish, my understanding is that in Bolivia and Peru, "llama" is pronounced with the Catalan "ll" rather than "yama", which is how I pronounced it for years. I assume that it is the same in Chile?
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2009 at 19:27
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

I had no trouble with Spanish trilled "r's", but my former home town (Cabo Rojo) pronounced both the initial and trilled "r" as a glottal sound, similar to the Dutch "g". This made "carro" sound like Kah-ghwo, and Cabo "Rrojo" sound like "Cabo Ghwojo". The Portuguese "l" and "ll"still give me trouble. THe Portuguese "l" sound requires you to wrap your tongue around the sound. That Spanish speakers have troubles with other Portuguese sounds, such as "j" (softer, but close to an English "j") and "x", a "sh" sound which doesn't exist in Spanish. Other than basic vocabulary (segunda, terca with soft C, for Lunes, martes, etc., frango for "pollo", peru for "pavo", janela fpr "ventana"), Portuguese has more vowels, and "O" comes out sounding like a "u". Puertorrican and Dominican Spanish speakers eat their verb endings, making past tense participles sound close to Portuguese. (Estao, tumbao, echao, etc). Learning each language's sounds is probably the most important step in language learning, but one that is widely ignored when the alphabet is latin based, because the familiar letters trick our subconscious into thinking that it knows the sound. False cognates (v.g., embarazar) abound in all latin based languages. Oriental languages have their own traps, often because various competing romanization systems exist for the same languages. Vietnam adopted the quoc ngu, a latin alphabet, which makes that language somewhat easier to study, but the tones and certain letters give all westerners trouble. "ng" and "nh" are examples. Ironic that we can "sing" but we can't easily "gnis".Regarding Rosetta Stone materials. I have used both Vietnamese and Chinese, and consider them over-rated. They are an excellent vocabulary builder, but I prefer a more formal system for teaching grammar. I prefer the U.S. State Department's Foreign Language Institute's materials for language teaching, and there is a site on line that includes some of the older materials. The text can be downloaded, but the tapes can only be listened to on line.  Try:  http://www.fsi-language-courses.org/Content.phpFinally, regarding Spanish, my understanding is that in Bolivia and Peru, "llama" is pronounced with the Catalan "ll" rather than "yama", which is how I pronounced it for years. I assume that it is the same in Chile?


thanks for the site although the link did not work but I yahooed it and found it.

http://fsi-language-courses.com/Turkish.aspx

I have the feeling I will be back in Turkiye and for some reason I love thier language. Maybe in a past life I was a Turk!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2009 at 07:16
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

On the speed issue, isn't it a pretty universal characteristic that city dwellers speak faster than rural ones? It's certainly true in English societies, and even shows at the micro level in distinguishing between the patterns of speech in, say, Southampton as against the New Forest, or Newcastle against Northumbria gnerally.
 
Such differencies one can also hear in Sweden between city and rural area but also between northern and southern Sweden. Also sometimes it seems that some of the people in northern Sweden uses fewer words in a daily conversation (at least one can get the impression by hearing some of them speaking). This is often parodied and made fun of in different comedy shows and similar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gruvawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2010 at 07:09
in american english we have a vanilla vowel. schwa, the up-side down e that you see in dictionary pronunciation. we throw it in just about any and everywhere. thus...
World sounds like werld, and Thousand sounds like thouzend, or just thouzen, mirror like mirer.
whirrled also sounds like werld Wacko
i still have trouble with rr, but i've noticed when i get it right, i'm pushing a lot of air like the french uvular trill.
b's and 'v's i pronounce about the same for spanish. i make a v sound without teeth using only my lips , and just plosive it a little for b.
i've said bano in mexico many times and was always understood.
don't believe everything you think. : )
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