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    Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 15:41
I don't really understand why many of the Nations of Islam wish to retain archaic laws and cultural aspects which only serve to keep their countries poor, in almost every aspect.
 
Yes, I know that the oil rich countries of the world are mostly Muslim countries, but I'm not talking about those countries which are quite progressive.
 
Jihadists, by their own rantings condemn themselves. The Koran does not insist on Muslims killing non believers, it says the opposite.
 
Strict observance of the Koran denies women their rightful place in the 21st Century, by denying them education, permission to drive or to go out alone. The burka ridiculously insists that women cover themselves from head to foot in public. In a modern world that creates problems and breeds suspicion.
 
It musn't be forgotten that the Christian Bible also had some beauties in its time, but they've been watered down and modernised over time-in the main.
 
Instead of remaining insular, the countries of Islam, imo, need to step up to the 21st Century, eradicate the jihadists and become members of the modern world community.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 18:29
Where should I start... I believe your concerns are sincere but they are full of misconseptions. Obviously most people from outside living too far from the facts on the ground.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 18:35
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I don't really understand why many of the Nations of Islam wish to retain archaic laws and cultural aspects which only serve to keep their countries poor, in almost every aspect.
 
Yes, I know that the oil rich countries of the world are mostly Muslim countries, but I'm not talking about those countries which are quite progressive.
 
Jihadists, by their own rantings condemn themselves. The Koran does not insist on Muslims killing non believers, it says the opposite.
 
Strict observance of the Koran denies women their rightful place in the 21st Century, by denying them education, permission to drive or to go out alone. The burka ridiculously insists that women cover themselves from head to foot in public. In a modern world that creates problems and breeds suspicion.
 
It musn't be forgotten that the Christian Bible also had some beauties in its time, but they've been watered down and modernised over time-in the main.
 
Instead of remaining insular, the countries of Islam, imo, need to step up to the 21st Century, eradicate the jihadists and become members of the modern world community.
 
 
 


Fear is a great motivator in human affairs. Fear of change, or being different, the future, death, ultimate meanings. Those that can't- or don't want to- look squarely at the world often tend to escape into fantasy. We've all done it, and the worse things look, the more fantasy seems a nice escape. Getting lost in a Hollywood movie for a couple of hours is no big deal, but for some, stronger methods are needed.

For others, it is simply too much effort and risk to be different. Again, many have been in this same boat. How many in the west would have proclaimed atheism a hundred years ago?

Education is another issue. If one knows little or nothing of the workings of the universe, then anything may be possible. How many in western countries firmly believe in things like guardian angels, fairies, pyramid power, wrist magnets, etc ? It's not too many more steps from there to gods up in the clouds. The gods of course, are reflections of the societies that produced them. If they are troubled and conflicted, so too will be their deities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 19:12
Captain Vancouver's patterns of reasoning doesn't even match one coming from christian background but more like one from pagan background. This mindset is directly connected to rise of interest on Romans and ancient Greeks in 19th century in Europe, in search of a glorious predecessor. It couldn't be more convenient than choosing them, as both modern and ancient paganism are in one hand and christianity is in the other hand of dialectics. Only minor difference is ancient pagans had far fewer gods - although still many - than modern pagans, also known as atheists. Atheist position every particle as its own god and going as far as thinking particles formed everything we know on their own. Thus attributing them conciousness, planning, knowledge etc. Clearly, some people are supressing their reasoning for some reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2014 at 21:12
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Captain Vancouver's patterns of reasoning doesn't even match one coming from christian background but more like one from pagan background. This mindset is directly connected to rise of interest on Romans and ancient Greeks in 19th century in Europe, in search of a glorious predecessor. It couldn't be more convenient than choosing them, as both modern and ancient paganism are in one hand and christianity is in the other hand of dialectics. Only minor difference is ancient pagans had far fewer gods - although still many - than modern pagans, also known as atheists. Atheist position every particle as its own god and going as far as thinking particles formed everything we know on their own. Thus attributing them conciousness, planning, knowledge etc. Clearly, some people are supressing their reasoning for some reason.


You are correct P.o.H.- I am a pagan. I don't subscribe to any of the currently popular spiritual myths, but I am in awe of nature (or science as it is sometimes called). The prospect that we many only know a tiny portion of this entity only increases its cache for me.

As far as particles go, I don't think I would go so far as worship. For one thing, we would have to have very, very tiny shrines. And anyway, I believe the popular thought now is that particles are actually interchangaeble with energy, both of which have only loose definitions, and are open for further review. Did they form on their own? Which came first, the egg or the chicken? If we believe god made the particles, then who made god? If god is eternal, then why can't particles be also? Kind of goes around in a circle, doesn't it?

Your last sentence gets to the core of the matter. Suppression is wide spread, if not universal. Many of the aspects of our human existence are unpalatable, and so, as Freud first observed, we tend to create defense mechanisms to smooth out the flow, and make the unpleasant pleasant again. Religion is the granddaddy of all defense mechanisms, as it is audacious enough to answer the biggest questions going. Does life have meaning? Are we all going to die? What's it all about? We want answers, and if there are none, well, some are content to sit back with a test tube, and others will bang their head against the wall, without some relief. A market niche is created. It is filled. We have the Vatican, Allah, the Buddha, the Reverend Moon. We may be a fearful species, but we are certainly entrepreneurial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 02:38
I genuinely feel sorry for those people oppressed by their own beliefs, their own religion and culture.
 
I agree with the concept that, for some people, religion is a refuge, a source of comfort, but surely there is a line to be marked between solace and oppression?
 
Those Islamic countries considered by the west to be "moderates" seem to get along very well commercially and religiously. It's a pity, imo, that religious leaders in other Muslim countries can't follow suit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 03:07
I think progress and Islam is an oxymoron.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 03:20
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

I think progress and Islam is an oxymoron.
 
Possibly, but the point I'm trying to make, is that it ought not be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 11:26
I don't really understand why many of the Nations of Islam wish to retain archaic laws and cultural aspects which only serve to keep their countries poor, in almost every aspect.
Tradition. It provides a stable basis for social behaviour and creates a sense of communal belonging. It doesn't of itself keep people poor, but you find that the strength of religion is often aligned with the poverty of its people, thus the downtrodden medieval peasant was absolutely besotted with christianity, or the downtrodden russian peasant absolutely convinced that communism was the way forward. There is little functional difference between propoganda and sermon.
 
Jihadists, by their own rantings condemn themselves. The Koran does not insist on Muslims killing non believers, it says the opposite.
It doesn't matter. Jihadists are driven by hatred, bigotry, or appealling to primal instincts often prevalent in young males concerning violent competition. They also provide a means by which young men (or in fairness, young women too) gain self respect by becoming part of a movement that seeks active participation in a conflict against whatever they see as the evils in the world. Whereas the Quran has the same prohibitions on killing as the Bible, jihadists have already instituted their own excuse in the same way that the crusaders excused the crusades as a penance - a war to absolve wars by fighting for God, and that killing pagans was a lesser evil than killing christians (though the crusaders did indulge in some nasty anti-semitism too). It's about expedience. Human beings are good at that.
 
Strict observance of the Koran denies women their rightful place in the 21st Century, by denying them education, permission to drive or to go out alone. The burka ridiculously insists that women cover themselves from head to foot in public. In a modern world that creates problems and breeds suspicion.
From a modern western cultural basis perhaps, but then these countries do not adhere to our sensibilities nor regard them as intrinsically better.
 
It musn't be forgotten that the Christian Bible also had some beauties in its time, but they've been watered down and modernised over time-in the main.
The Bible isn't watered down particularly, but it has been revised and rewritten occaisionally, but then, it always a censored collection of accounts in the first place. Some of the gospels were excluded during the late Roman Empire because they didn't conform to the ideals that the christian unification movement wanted to see. Politics and profit came before strict observance of the actual texts. That's one reason why Islam has such a strong following - it is said to be based on "the last word of God" as revealed to the prophet Mohammed.
 
Instead of remaining insular, the countries of Islam, imo, need to step up to the 21st Century, eradicate the jihadists and become members of the modern world community.
Some have tried, but the problem is that leaders who do this tend to become unpopular with the lower classes who remain unimpressed with the lack of puritanism, and who quickly feel their beliefs and sensibilities are being betrayed in favour of personal gain, as is often the case. Also, since the the countries you refer to don't like the crass commercialism and elitism of modern western democracies, not to mention the suspicion of their politics and military power, nor the decadent behaviour they despise, they don't have a great motive to be part of something they detest in the first place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 14:33
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


And anyway, I believe the popular thought now is that particles are actually interchangaeble with energy, both of which have only loose definitions, and are open for further review.

They are not much different, energy too has a mass and as well as other properties associeted with matter. It's just a more volative form of existence. 

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Did they form on their own?
Ceartainly not LOL

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Which came first, the egg or the chicken? If we believe god made the particles, then who made god? If god is eternal, then why can't particles be also? Kind of goes around in a circle, doesn't it?
I don't understand why this simple misconceptions are so prevalent. As far as back in 7th century, muslim schoolars made that clear, Allah (Al Ilah - the God) created time and space as well. He (even these pronoun is used out of necessity, because the God cannot be associeted with a gender) is not an old man above clouds certainly nor he has a begining or an end. As muslim schoolars stated, these notions (time and space) are do not have an existence of their own, therefore they are classified as "emr-i itibari" (as we write in latinised version), which means their existance is nominal/titular/relative. The God is not made of particles, in fact if I have to continue on what is not the God, I have to mention every thing that exists except the God himself. A much better way is sticking to thousand year old definition:

1. Vücud: The God do exist (on his own).
2. Kıdem: The God did existed (always).
3. Beka: The God will exist (always).
4. Vahdaniyet: The God is the one (and only).
5. Muhalefetün lil Havadis: The God is not anything like He created. Anything comes in mind is not Him. Opposite of the created beings is He and cannot be comprehended as nothing about him is finite.
6. Kıyam binefsihi: The God's exist without in need of anything. On contrary, we need time, space, food, water, air etc. to exists.
[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Your last sentence gets to the core of the matter. Suppression is wide spread, if not universal. Many of the aspects of our human existence are unpalatable, and so, as Freud first observed, we tend to create defense mechanisms to smooth out the flow, and make the unpleasant pleasant again. Religion is the granddaddy of all defense mechanisms, as it is audacious enough to answer the biggest questions going. Does life have meaning? Are we all going to die? What's it all about? We want answers, and if there are none, well, some are content to sit back with a test tube, and others will bang their head against the wall, without some relief. A market niche is created. It is filled. We have the Vatican, Allah, the Buddha, the Reverend Moon. We may be a fearful species, but we are certainly entrepreneurial.
Our history of religions (although still incomplete as atheist one) makes a lot more sense than atheist version of history of religions. From our perspective, there wasn't any faith but one original true faith in one God. But they gradually became corrupt. They started to think of angels as gods as well. For example, Azrael - Archangel of death become the god of death in their respective languages. But to be guided to the right path, messengers (the prophets) chosen among them to warn. Even when a messenger succedeed (probably a rare occasion), it didn't took much to became corrupt again - few hundred years perhaps, sometimes more, sometimes less... 

This 18 minute part is considered the heart of the Quran's meaning. It is more enlightening than me indeed. Perhaps I produced my answers to your questions because I've access to modern knowledge? What this text is saying from 6th century.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 14:36
One day, the people will be free, Insh Allah!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 20:42
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

I don't understand why this simple misconceptions are so prevalent. As far as back in 7th century, muslim schoolars made that clear, Allah (Al Ilah - the God) created time and space as well. He (even these pronoun is used out of necessity, because the God cannot be associeted with a gender) is not an old man above clouds certainly nor he has a begining or an end. As muslim schoolars stated, these notions (time and space) are do not have an existence of their own, therefore they are classified as "emr-i itibari" (as we write in latinised version), which means their existance is nominal/titular/relative. The God is not made of particles, in fact if I have to continue on what is not the God, I have to mention every thing that exists except the God himself. A much better way is sticking to thousand year old definition:

1. Vücud: The God do exist (on his own).
2. Kıdem: The God did existed (always).
3. Beka: The God will exist (always).
4. Vahdaniyet: The God is the one (and only).
5. Muhalefetün lil Havadis: The God is not anything like He created. Anything comes in mind is not Him. Opposite of the created beings is He and cannot be comprehended as nothing about him is finite.
6. Kıyam binefsihi: The God's exist without in need of anything. On contrary, we need time, space, food, water, air etc. to exists.
[/QUOTE]

Interesting way to look at things, but I think a brief reflection here will indicate that you are still messing about with chickens and eggs. They may be rather profound chickens and eggs, but the concept is the same.

In essence, you are saying this: There is knowledge. There are some things outside of knowledge.  Some of these latter items have been written about, and in some cases the writings have been very popular, and indeed, taken up with fervor. You believe that you like those writings, and intend to use them to guide your life, to an extent.

Excellent. Nothing wrong with that, except that there is a dividing line between what can be reasonably examined and understood, and what is simply mythology. It can be fulfilling, even exciting, to indulge in myth and  magic. The only problem is that if there is actually no independent rationale behind it, then it is inevitable that human bias will creep in here and there, and any manner of distortions are then possible. This is pretty much what Toyomotor presented in the OP. Islam has been hijacked by untold millions for their own purposes in recent times. So too with Christianity, and other religions, although somewhat less so in recent years. When one sets out to say certain things need no proof, nor even evidence, then it opens up a can of worms, because your truth may be rather different than mine in such subjective areas. My law of gravity is actually the same as yours, something no mullah or priest with psychological issues can alter in any rational way.

Ejecting what is unknown into a catch-all either is a long standing human tradition. Originally it was things like lightening, floods, stars at night, etc, that were in the infinite province of god. These items have narrowed down in recent years. We can say things are outside our understanding, but then providing a comfortable story to explain them is again a human tendency, but one that is ultimately unsatisfying, because reality provides more awe than story telling, in the final analysis, IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2014 at 21:18
PoH, you are well articulated and a firm believer of your faith. 
You can probably answer a couple of hypothetical question better than anyone...
 - please humor me...

If you by chance was born 1000 km to the north in a communist environment - do you think you would have converted to Islam by now of your own free will?
or...
If you by chance was born 1500 km to the west in a Christian environment - do you think you would have converted to Islam by now of your own free will? 

- or do you think that we will stay true to the faith our parents brainwashed into our heads when we were children - no matter which religion or place of birth??  

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Edited by Northman - 08 Apr 2014 at 21:21
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2014 at 13:44
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

PoH, you are well articulated and a firm believer of your faith. 
You can probably answer a couple of hypothetical question better than anyone...
 - please humor me...

If you by chance was born 1000 km to the north in a communist environment - do you think you would have converted to Islam by now of your own free will?
or...
If you by chance was born 1500 km to the west in a Christian environment - do you think you would have converted to Islam by now of your own free will? 

- or do you think that we will stay true to the faith our parents brainwashed into our heads when we were children - no matter which religion or place of birth??  

~ North
These are fundamental questions and dealt by schoolars a number of reasonable ways. According to Maturidî school, reasoning alone is enough to find the God. Therefore people who hadn't encountered with a revelation are responsible only with the belief in one God. But according to Ashary school, reasoning is not enough to find the God, revelations are necessary and those who didn't recieved are not responsible of it in anyway.

Back to the your question, we do not call it free will. We divide it into two parts. "Partial will" is the will of mankind and "absolute will" is the will of the God and it encompasses everything, including our partial wills. We cannot will if the God also didn't willed it. Man do not posses a free will, because nothing is free of the God, if it was, you would be the God. That's logically impossible. And of course we are not stripped out of capability of choice. Think of a military command chain or a serial electrical circuit. It's a simple function, lesser you are in the hierarchy or latter you are in a serial circuit -both are same thing- more your will depends on formers. To able to will, their will is a pre requirement as will of God is so for us.

There is no way we could know, what would my religion/ideology would be if I was born somewhere else. But I know that in many occasions we muslims give thanks for being muslims - being guided. Still there is no guarantee for that you won't deviate from the path. Average practicing muslim recites first chapter of Qur'an fifthy times a day at least:

1.1 In name of Allah, the Enterily Merciful, the Especialy Merciful. 
1.2 [All] praise [due] to Allah, Lord of the worlds-
1.3 The Enterily Merciful, 
the Especialy Merciful.
1.4 Sovereign of the Day of Recompense.
1.5 It is You we worship and It is You we ask for help.
1.6 Guide us to the straight path-
1.7 The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.


According to many schoolars, "
those who have evoked [Your] anger" implies jews, because how much they transgressed despite knowledge of what they had been doing and "those who are astray" implies christians because how far they wandered astray from original faith.


Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 10 Apr 2014 at 16:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2014 at 14:49
Well, that didn't answer the questions you were asked.
 
In the following phrase, you state, "those who are astray" implies Christians because how far they wandered astray from original faith."
 
Again, you don't address the questions, but on what basis do you claim that Christians are implicated because they wandered from the original faith. When talking about Islam and Christianity, the latter was being practised first, and surely Islam is the faith that wandered from the original.
 
But I would be interested in your answers to the questions that were put to you by Northman.
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Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Interesting way to look at things, but I think a brief reflection here will indicate that you are still messing about with chickens and eggs. They may be rather profound chickens and eggs, but the concept is the same.
I don't think so, even when we say "the God always existed" it is not the exact truth but this sentence makes it easier to understand. The God is not in need of time to exist. If you search the God in the universe, you won't find Him. I won't find you if I search you in the Moon for a billion year, because you are not in there. But as universe is a creation of the God as a whole. It shouldn't be so hard to determine that all these patterns are His signs.

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


In essence, you are saying this: There is knowledge. There are some things outside of knowledge.  Some of these latter items have been written about, and in some cases the writings have been very popular, and indeed, taken up with fervor. You believe that you like those writings, and intend to use them to guide your life, to an extent. 
Every important and massive thing will be seen dwarved if man is at a certain distance to it. My hope is that it is not the man who has distanced itself to it.

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


This is pretty much what Toyomotor presented in the OP. Islam has been hijacked by untold millions for their own purposes in recent times. So too with Christianity, and other religions, although somewhat less so in recent years.
If you hijack a ship or a plane, you are still in it. Whether so called hijackers are on up to something good or bad that's still a journey.

"When they commit some abominable act, they say: 'We found our fore fathers doing this, and God has commanded us to do it.' Tell them, O Prophet, 'God never commands men to commit foul deeds, but you attribute to God every sinful and erroneous act you commit in your ignorance.'(7:28)

 
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

When one sets out to say certain things need no proof, nor even evidence, then it opens up a can of worms, because your truth may be rather different than mine in such subjective areas. My law of gravity is actually the same as yours, something no mullah or priest with psychological issues can alter in any rational way.
Wouldn't it be stupid if we didn't notice that for hundreds of years LOL Of course we know laws of physics always behave in same manner. We call these causality as "sunnetullah" or "adetullah" (the God's preffered way of things). But funny part is, it don't have to... Properties of matter (including energy) - which are called laws of physics - gained their qualities from the God's will. If the God wills otherwise - which happens very occasionally as miracles demonstrated by prophets - it happens otherwise. In fact the Maturidî school holds that laws of logic as well subjected to the God's will, which means even they can change! But Mutezile school says laws of logic are the God's inherent part and cannot change. A change in laws of physics are theorically possible and they can be calculated. But a change in laws of logic is truly incomprehensible to us. 

 
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Ejecting what is unknown into a catch-all either is a long standing human tradition. Originally it was things like lightening, floods, stars at night, etc, that were in the infinite province of god. These items have narrowed down in recent years. We can say things are outside our understanding, but then providing a comfortable story to explain them is again a human tendency, but one that is ultimately unsatisfying, because reality provides more awe than story telling, in the final analysis, IMO.
The causality is a veil, the God doesn't need them to command anything. But in the end that veil is beneficial to our understanding of the God. Without causality, we cannot reason or understand. How you able to think that two nominally seperate realms - pyhsics and its meta - can conflict with each other? In truth, their aren't separate as much but it's what you claim. A simple example:

"And have you seen the water that you drink? Is it you who brought it down from the clouds, or is it We who bring it down? If We willed we could make it bitter, so why are you not grateful?"(56:68-70)

Isn't it obvious, Qur'an's issue is not how it occurs but why it occurs?

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Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Well, that didn't answer the questions you were asked.
 
In the following phrase, you state, "those who are astray" implies Christians because how far they wandered astray from original faith."
 
Again, you don't address the questions, but on what basis do you claim that Christians are implicated because they wandered from the original faith. When talking about Islam and Christianity, the latter was being practised first, and surely Islam is the faith that wandered from the original.
 
But I would be interested in your answers to the questions that were put to you by Northman.
Chronologically Jews are first of the three, Christians are the second and Muslims are the last. When we inspect the three, Christians are by far most metamorphed despite Jews are being around much earlier and Muslims are the least changed (if any) from their own known origins.

"And among them are unlettered ones who do not know the Scripture except in wishful thinking, but they are only assuming. So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."  (2:78-79)

I believe I answered the question very clearly. Still, I may expand my answer. According to Qur'an, prophet Abraham's father was a disbeliever/denier (and a polyteist) but it didn't made him so. And son of prophet Noah was also a disbeliver/denier and it didn't made him faithful. These are exceptional inviduals of course. I thank the God for being guided, because I know I may not be among faithful without it. Because I'm inclined to Ashary school in this issue; reason is not enough, revelation is necessary. 

There are many topics dealing with these issue coming to my mind actually. I cannot write them all. But I assure you, it's extensively handled.


Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 10 Apr 2014 at 16:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 2014 at 23:35
 
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

PoH, you are well articulated and a firm believer of your faith. 
You can probably answer a couple of hypothetical question better than anyone...
 - please humor me...

If you by chance was born 1000 km to the north in a communist environment - do you think you would have converted to Islam by now of your own free will?
or...
If you by chance was born 1500 km to the west in a Christian environment - do you think you would have converted to Islam by now of your own free will? 

- or do you think that we will stay true to the faith our parents brainwashed into our heads when we were children - no matter which religion or place of birth??  

~ North
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

There is no way we could know, what would my religion/ideology would be if I was born somewhere else. But I know that in many occasions we muslims give thanks for being muslims - being guided. Still there is no guarantee for that you won't deviate from the path.

I think what I have quoted here is the closest I can find an answer in your post to me.
My questions were all meant to be answered by you directly - to have you personal opinion.
Quoting what everyone else had said during history is not what I was asking for - but an interesting read none the less...

In the above answer you line two thing up.

1. You state that you could have had any other ideology depending on the circumstances in which you were born.

I find that very true and agree totally. 
But that immediately raises another question: How do you then know that Islam is the true religion - it has only become your faith because of random circumstances?

2. You give thanks for being Muslim - being guided.

I once was guided too. 
Due to my mothers sickness, I spent a great deal of my childhood with my mothers family - aunts and granny mostly. They were Jehova Witness and naturally I participated in the religious activities they had - evenings of bible study etc. and at some point, I was starting to believe that was the right faith/denomination. (they were good at the mission work)
One day in the garden - I was 10 or 11 yo, my granddad ask me very seriously about my thoughts in respect to religion, and I started telling him what I had learned in the evenings....
"No- no he said - that is what they tell you to think - what do you really think or believe". 
I didn't know what to say - and he continued...  
"Don't ever let anyone tell you what to think or believe... Study for yourself when you get older and when you are old and wise enough to make a qualified choice - then do so if you need it".

I have thanked him many times over the years - even now...
You think Islam is the right thing - my mothers family thought their way of Christianity was the right thing. 

This is the reason why I used the phrase "brainwashed" children. You never got a chance to chose for yourself - and I only got to chose because of my grandfather.

~ North



Edited by Northman - 11 Apr 2014 at 23:40
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2014 at 00:23
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

 
I don't think so, even when we say "the God always existed" it is not the exact truth but this sentence makes it easier to understand. The God is not in need of time to exist. If you search the God in the universe, you won't find Him. I won't find you if I search you in the Moon for a billion year, because you are not in there. But as universe is a creation of the God as a whole. It shouldn't be so hard to determine that all these patterns are His signs.


Every important and massive thing will be seen dwarved if man is at a certain distance to it. My hope is that it is not the man who has distanced itself to it.

If we presume god is outside of time and space, we can presume other items are also. Why not? Without a rationale, or evidence presented, we are going on faith. You have faith in god, I have faith in Einstein. There is a body of work behind the latter, a body of writings behind the former, most of which was done in pre-science, pre-modern times, when the relatively exacting standards of today were unheard of. Saying it is so because it is written projects human need and desire to an extreme degree, and this leaves us in a vulnerable position. How to separate need from reality, when we have already signed an armistice with need, and are bound by its provisions? 



Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Wouldn't it be stupid if we didn't notice that for hundreds of years LOL Of course we know laws of physics always behave in same manner. We call these causality as "sunnetullah" or "adetullah" (the God's preffered way of things). But funny part is, it don't have to... Properties of matter (including energy) - which are called laws of physics - gained their qualities from the God's will. If the God wills otherwise - which happens very occasionally as miracles demonstrated by prophets - it happens otherwise. In fact the Maturidî school holds that laws of logic as well subjected to the God's will, which means even they can change! But Mutezile school says laws of logic are the God's inherent part and cannot change. A change in laws of physics are theorically possible and they can be calculated. But a change in laws of logic is truly incomprehensible to us. 

The causality is a veil, the God doesn't need them to command anything. But in the end that veil is beneficial to our understanding of the God. Without causality, we cannot reason or understand. How you able to think that two nominally seperate realms - pyhsics and its meta - can conflict with each other? In truth, their aren't separate as much but it's what you claim. A simple example:

"And have you seen the water that you drink? Is it you who brought it down from the clouds, or is it We who bring it down? If We willed we could make it bitter, so why are you not grateful?"(56:68-70)

Isn't it obvious, Qur'an's issue is not how it occurs but why it occurs?


What's obvious to me is the wholesale projection of human values into religious scripture. Being grateful is a human attribute. Why would a supreme being, far beyond our understanding, ask for gratefulness? Why would they insist on humans worshiping them in exclusion of all others? Why would they get mad (another human behavior) if they do not receive the appropriate attention? This is all about people, PoH, not ultimate beings.

What is unknown can make us uncomfortable, and so humans have always tended to rationalize or explain away the unexplained. Religion, astrology, numerology, mythology, etc are all ways of making a more comfortable situation than simply saying it is unknown at the present time. Saying that god is simply outside of everything is the thinnest of arguments, as we can make the same claim about anything. Sea monsters? Yes, they exist, but they are just outside of everything we know. Leprechauns? Yep, there're around, just outside of all laws of physics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 2014 at 12:23
It has been said that a man worships either the absurd or the mysterious.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 03:27
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

It has been said that a man worships either the absurd or the mysterious.
 
 
And then some!
 
But neither of those apply to Islam, the religion. It seems that the mullahs want to remain in the 15th Century, not allowing the people to take advantage of western cultures in any respect. This tends to isolate those radicalised countries to the extent that they become so inward looking that they can't/won't/don't develop as much and as fast as their neighbours.
 
Surely there are some progressive religious leaders throughout Islam who can see the need to blend Islam into the 21st Century.
 
 
 
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It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 13:15
Provided you assume that western culture is superior. The mullahs, or more accurately the fundamentalist mullahs, don't like it. They see it as godless and decadent. Don't forget that there are aspects of moslem society that might be considered superior to our ow.

Now the question of political power is a bit different. Religion is one thing. Enforcing ideas upoin a people is another, and it isn't an attrmpt to create a medieval world opposed to the west per se, but a manifestation of a number of moslem clerics who want to create a political climate in which they have greater influence. Where Islam differs from christianity is that it has not, as yet, found a strong host culture to unite the sects in the way that the Romans did for christianity, thus we have moslem activists and people parading around shouting for sharia law to be installed.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 15:27
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I think what I have quoted here is the closest I can find an answer in your post to me.
My questions were all meant to be answered by you directly - to have you personal opinion.
Quoting what everyone else had said during history is not what I was asking for - but an interesting read none the less...
There is no "yes and no" answers for most things in philosophy and religion.


Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

In the above answer you line two thing up.
1. You state that you could have had any other ideology depending on the circumstances in which you were born.

I find that very true and agree totally. 
But that immediately raises another question: How do you then know that Islam is the true religion - it has only become your faith because of random circumstances?

2. You give thanks for being Muslim - being guided.

I once was guided too. 
Due to my mothers sickness, I spent a great deal of my childhood with my mothers family - aunts and granny mostly. They were Jehova Witness and naturally I participated in the religious activities they had - evenings of bible study etc. and at some point, I was starting to believe that was the right faith/denomination. (they were good at the mission work)
One day in the garden - I was 10 or 11 yo, my granddad ask me very seriously about my thoughts in respect to religion, and I started telling him what I had learned in the evenings....
"No- no he said - that is what they tell you to think - what do you really think or believe". 
I didn't know what to say - and he continued...  
"Don't ever let anyone tell you what to think or believe... Study for yourself when you get older and when you are old and wise enough to make a qualified choice - then do so if you need it".

I have thanked him many times over the years - even now...
You think Islam is the right thing - my mothers family thought their way of Christianity was the right thing. 

This is the reason why I used the phrase "brainwashed" children. You never got a chance to chose for yourself - and I only got to chose because of my grandfather.

~ North

Because that's the most comphrehensive explanation of existance. Muslims, naturally defy nature worshiping religions and see other Abrahamic religions as decayed and corrupted. This is the dominant point of view for most Muslims.

There is no randomness of course, it's also a nominal perception. Percieved outcomes decays into one when the event about subjected randomness occurs. Which is called destiny by mankind. The absolute will of the God. In the end, everything is the God's will. It's the extend of of my will we are discussing. Which is also nominal.


Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 14 Apr 2014 at 16:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 16:04
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

If we presume god is outside of time and space, we can presume other items are also. Why not? Without a rationale, or evidence presented, we are going on faith. You have faith in god, I have faith in Einstein. There is a body of work behind the latter, a body of writings behind the former, most of which was done in pre-science, pre-modern times, when the relatively exacting standards of today were unheard of. Saying it is so because it is written projects human need and desire to an extreme degree, and this leaves us in a vulnerable position. How to separate need from reality, when we have already signed an armistice with need, and are bound by its provisions? 

No, a pen cannot exist outside time and space. Any object we can assume to do so must be completely selfsufficient, omnipotent, omniscient etc. Which are the God's attributes. Only thing it could be imagined so will be the God, among many names we use for the God there is also "Vacib-ül Vücud" (the Necessary Entity). The God have to exist, there is no other possibility. Not that the God created everything and they exist on their own. Everything need the God in every moment to be in state of existance.

Being needy and dependent is an essential attribute of everything created. Because they are finite in every aspect we can imagine. Qualities and quantities in this finity described as their self. Everything needs and depends on the God, because of that we use the name "Ar-Razzak" (the Provisioner) for the God.

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

How to separate need from reality, when we have already signed an armistice with need, and are bound by its provisions? 
Oh thank God, finally Smile I want to answer that soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 17:08
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

çWhat's obvious to me is the wholesale projection of human values into religious scripture. Being grateful is a human attribute. Why would a supreme being, far beyond our understanding, ask for gratefulness? Why would they insist on humans worshiping them in exclusion of all others? Why would they get mad (another human behavior) if they do not receive the appropriate attention? This is all about people, PoH, not ultimate beings.

How a parent explains a complicated matter to his/her child? Religious scriptures use allegory for this reason. Our comprehension is finite but even more curiously, it's varies greatly to one invidual to another. Because of this, message of religion must be both simple and universal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 17:24
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 What is unknown can make us uncomfortable, and so humans have always tended to rationalize or explain away the unexplained. Religion, astrology, numerology, mythology, etc are all ways of making a more comfortable situation than simply saying it is unknown at the present time. Saying that god is simply outside of everything is the thinnest of arguments, as we can make the same claim about anything. Sea monsters? Yes, they exist, but they are just outside of everything we know. Leprechauns? Yep, there're around, just outside of all laws of physics.

Everything inside laws of physics must be coherent with laws of physics. Anything outside of physics must be self coherent, which only the God can be Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 17:28
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

It has been said that a man worships either the absurd or the mysterious.
That's a very late 19th century sentence Tongue We know people worship power above all else. There are endless numerious historical examples of kings declaring themselves gods...

Today, that power lies on knowledge thus it's the knowledge/science which worshipped. That was the subconsciousness of your sentence.

But internet will change current paradigm of power. Now, knowledge is spreading everywhere at increasingly higher pace. As much as having tons of skyscrappers are not a sign of being developed today, knowledge itself will lose it's hegemony. That's my prediction for rest of 21th century Smile


Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 14 Apr 2014 at 17:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 18:31
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

I think what I have quoted here is the closest I can find an answer in your post to me.
My questions were all meant to be answered by you directly - to have you personal opinion.
Quoting what everyone else had said during history is not what I was asking for - but an interesting read none the less...
There is no "yes and no" answers for most things in philosophy and religion.
I didn't ask for a load of verbiage or a "yes or no" - I asked for your personal opinion... 
If you prefer not to answer - just say so.

Originally posted by PoH PoH wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

In the above answer you line two thing up.
1. You state that you could have had any other ideology depending on the circumstances in which you were born.

I find that very true and agree totally. 
But that immediately raises another question: How do you then know that Islam is the true religion - it has only become your faith because of random circumstances?

2. You give thanks for being Muslim - being guided.

I once was guided too. 
Due to my mothers sickness, I spent a great deal of my childhood with my mothers family - aunts and granny mostly. They were Jehova Witness and naturally I participated in the religious activities they had - evenings of bible study etc. and at some point, I was starting to believe that was the right faith/denomination. (they were good at the mission work)
One day in the garden - I was 10 or 11 yo, my granddad ask me very seriously about my thoughts in respect to religion, and I started telling him what I had learned in the evenings....
"No- no he said - that is what they tell you to think - what do you really think or believe". 
I didn't know what to say - and he continued...  
"Don't ever let anyone tell you what to think or believe... Study for yourself when you get older and when you are old and wise enough to make a qualified choice - then do so if you need it".

I have thanked him many times over the years - even now...
You think Islam is the right thing - my mothers family thought their way of Christianity was the right thing. 

This is the reason why I used the phrase "brainwashed" children. You never got a chance to chose for yourself - and I only got to chose because of my grandfather.

~ North

Because that's the most comphrehensive explanation of existance. Muslims, naturally defy nature worshiping religions and see other Abrahamic religions as decayed and corrupted. This is the dominant point of view for most Muslims.
What question are you answering here? - is it "How do you know Islam is the only true religion"?
If so - see next comment...
Originally posted by PoH PoH wrote:

There is no randomness of course, it's also a nominal perception. Percieved outcomes decays into one when the event about subjected randomness occurs. Which is called destiny by mankind. The absolute will of the God. In the end, everything is the God's will. It's the extend of of my will we are discussing. Which is also nominal.
Of course there is randomness... if everything was the will of God and Islam is the only true religion - wouldn't he make sure we all became Muslims?
Read your own words:
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

There is no way we could know, what would my religion/ideology would be if I was born somewhere else.

Right - rather random - right?
And if you were born in Denmark in 1947, you probably wouldn't even have heard about Islam for plus 20 years - so what are the chances that you still would find it to be the only true religion?

Pure random by birth - then some guidance - and in some cases, brainwash.
But that is not limited to Muslims...

~ North


   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 19:14
The idea of being descendants of Abraham is as far as I know no part of Christian Creed regardless of particular branch (Roman Catholic, Ortodox, Lutheran). Then it is questionable wether Christians are "Abrahamitic", since Abraham seems to be not that dominant biblical figure.
And the larger parts of mankind may not so easily see the "blessings" of contemporary islamic practices, or why it should be any improvement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 2014 at 19:16
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

 
No, a pen cannot exist outside time and space. Any object we can assume to do so must be completely selfsufficient, omnipotent, omniscient etc. Which are the God's attributes. Only thing it could be imagined so will be the God, among many names we use for the God there is also "Vacib-ül Vücud" (the Necessary Entity). The God have to exist, there is no other possibility. Not that the God created everything and they exist on their own. Everything need the God in every moment to be in state of existance.

Being needy and dependent is an essential attribute of everything created. Because they are finite in every aspect we can imagine. Qualities and quantities in this finity described as their self. Everything needs and depends on the God, because of that we use the name "Ar-Razzak" (the Provisioner) for the God.

You are nothing if not precise PoH. What you have described here is a perfect circle. But you have omitted at least three things in your presentation of geometry here: any philosophical, rational, or logical argument. What is unknown is god, and god incorporates all that is unknown. If there is no current explanation, we know where to dump the question. It's all god, except for what is rationally known, which ominously for religion, seems to be growing all the time, slowly edging out the need for god. Round and round we go.

Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Oh thank God, finally Smile I want to answer that soon.

Good luck.
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