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Puerto Rican Statehood yes/no

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    Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 06:29
Puerto Rico Statehood?

what are your opinions on the possibly of Puerto Rico becoming the 51st state in the Union?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 08:58
I don't know. The last election results in PR were an impressive change. However, i don't think Congress should be so quick to act. I think the people on the island need to vote on this one more time for the sake of clarity before any sort of action is taken in our legislature.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 01:12
No. Rather, Puerto Rico should be granted independence, whether it wants it or not. Should 94% of all registered Puerto Rican voters petition the United States for admission to the Union, then the Congress should seriously consider that measure. Otherwise, on a given date, Puerto Rico should be declared independent. American citizens residing in Puerto Rico at the time will continue to be American citizens, with all rights and privileges thereof, but they will be doing so in an expatriate status, and their remaining in Puerto RIco will be subject to the laws of that Republic, just like Panama,Costa Rica, Uruguay, and many other Latin countries.

61% of the vote, after 95 years of U.S. citizenship, is hardly a resounding vote in favor of retaining that citizenship. And, the American people deserve to cast a vote as to whether they want to continue footing the billions of taxpayer dollars annually spent supporting the island. The only fair way to do that is to cut all funding and let the island try independence first. Once Puerto Ricans see the results, they will have a far better appreciation of the benefits of statehood versus independence.


Edited by lirelou - 10 Dec 2012 at 01:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 03:15
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

You make no sense... Then we need to give back the south to the confederates too.

Your posts make me smile day in and day out.

That would be funny, their flag is much cooler than currrent union flag Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lao Tse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 03:19
I think Puerto Rico should have one more vote, but afterwords, the result decides whether statehood or not, if they vote yes, it goes to congress, if not, then thay get independence. But, if they become independent, I think that they might go bankrupt without our assistance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 13:04
The situation is rather like that of Northern Ireland, though NI has the extra option of merger with the South. Isn't there any other similar option for PR?

Malta is a similar case since post-war independence was forced upon them. Certainly there's no reason why PR should simply choose for itself.    
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The US giving Puerto Rico independence will come after Cornwall becomes a republic. It will never happen.

 
The strategic position of Puerto Rico in addition to the fact that it is the largest US overseas holding should be enough to convince people in Puerto Rico to wake up from their pipe dreams and return to reality.
 
In my opinion the real reason for inaction is the fact that it everyone secretly knows Puerto Rico will never get the approval of 34 states. At best 20-25 states will side with Puerto Rico statehood and the rest will reject it mainly because of Hispanophobia and also because the new state will be solidly one colour and we all know which one.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 22:54
What's the point of having another vote?
Oh, didn't get the result we wanted that time, so we'd better try again?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 16:18
Es-Bih, Always happy to make someone smile. However, Puerto Rico in an unincorporated territory of the United States. Not an incorporated territory like previous territories that have been admitted to the Union.
 
It was granted citizenship under the Jones Act in 1917, with the United States heading into World War One. Being citizens made a better case for charging a Puerto Rican with treason, if in fact such acts had been committed there during the War. (none, to my knowledge, were)
 
There was a strong sentiment for independence during that period, as well as for statehood. Commonwealth status as an idea would develop in the 30s and 40s, culminating in 1952. The independence groups of the 1930s included Fascists (Albizu Campos), Communists, and Socialists with the Puerto Rican Nationalist Party, headed by Albizu Campos, appealing to all Independence believers to join his Party. Why that failed can be gleaned from Luis Angel Ferrao's excellent "Pedro Alibzu Campos y el nacionalismo puertorriqueno", if you are so inclined.
 
Post World War Two, the Puerto Rican Independence Party, not affiliated with Alibzu-Campos, was formed, along with a pro-American independence party (The Puerto Rican Union Party) which died a quick death. In the 1952 elections, the PIP polled 26% of the vote. However Munoz-Marin's Popular Democratic Party won those elections, and his Commonwealth approach bled off some of the PIP support under Operation Bootstrap.
 
My own experience in Puerto Rico convinces me that the great majority of Puerto Ricans will always remain Puerto Ricans first, and Americans second. That is not an attitude befitting any American citizen, but one can find paralels among some Southerners and Texans. But while these latter are ethnically identical to the American outside their States, Puerto Ricans are not. They enjoy a culture, language, history, and political existence independent of the United States. To become full American citizens, they need to accept the idea that English is the national language and adjust their educational system accordingly. That is not going to happen without a fight.
 
My own belief is that Puerto Rico will only truly be ready for American statehood once they had tried independence and seen it results. Only then will they ready to accept the changes that statehood would require. Recurring referendums are no validator for Puerto Rican committment to statehood., and 61% is an insult to all that the United States has done for the island. It should require 95% or better.
 
In fairness, I should mention that I was a member of the Puerto Rican Independence Party. I am not opposed to statehood if that is what the overhwelming numbers of Puertorrican want. But we don't need an electoral version of the Vieques issue; i.e. all emotion, no common sense.
 
 


Edited by lirelou - 13 Dec 2012 at 16:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 2012 at 21:28
I'm not sure 61% is such an insult. It's always hard to get a concensus with larger groups of people. That number would be deemed pretty good if it represented a pro-federal vote in Quebec, and I have an intutitive feeling that the figures wouldn't that much better in Alberta.
 
What may or may not happen in the future is an abstraction, and subject to, as you say, emotional whims. I think it is also the case that people tend to circle the wagons when they have a feeling of power imbalance. This is exactly the case in Quebec, where an ethnic minority is forever in fear of being swamped by a much larger group. Those that fear loosing what is important to them will take strong steps, even if this doesn't make a lot of sense in the larger scheme of things.
 
For Puerto Rico to become a state, the US would have to accept a greater degree of diversity than is now seen fit. That's a whole other ball of wax.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2012 at 14:44
Do you think we could achieve a consensus about spelling concensus?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 20:14
Does politican opinion around statehood for PR change much when economic woes are highlighted?
How does that compare with Greece and the European Union?  Is there any threat of anything happening
economically with the Puerto Rico situation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 20:32
As the economy gets worse, many will see statehood as a panacea. It is not. Many Puertorricans are already immigrating (yes, that is the word) to the U.S. in search of jobs or better welfare opportunities. The only thing that differentiates them from other Hispanic immigrants is that they are already U.S. citizens. Puerto Rico remains the homeland (Patria) of their hearts. Frankly, the Congress needs to take a hard look at why we keep Puerto Rico. They have the power to mandate independence by establishing a date. Under current conditions, a Statehood or Independence plebiscite vote just might pull in a 95% Vote for statehood. If not, then the U,S, should begin shutting down its operations on the island and turn them over to what will become the PR national government. Puertorricans who are already American citizens would retain their citizenship, and perhaps their children, but their grandchildren would be aliens. Whether or not they will continue to reside on the island, and what privileges they would have would depend upon the the Puertorrican government.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2015 at 04:17
Same topic raised in another thread franciscosan 

http://www.worldhistoria.com/the-greek-saga_topic129154_post97426.html?KW=#97426
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2015 at 05:32
lirelou, I don't see why they have to decide one way or the other, although the fact that Spanish is the predominant language complicates things.  I wonder if their education system teaches English or is bilingual or what?  Of course, in Denver, Puerto Ricans are scarce and the only one I've known here got his bachelor's in Classics (Antiquity).  He was in touch with his inner barbarian, making chainmail at the coffeehouse, reading Tolkien and Beowulf.  Now he's in Seattle doing running a Parkour park (look it up).  Great guy.  I am sure that Tampa is quite different.

Wolfhound, Same subject (sort of), different direction.
Your post definitely informed mine, but I felt the Americas threads were a little dead and so wanted to pick a topic to revive in it a little (maybe).  I was the last to post on it, and so I picked a topic to supersede the old one.  Just trying to encourage new postings.  There is not much under Americas, and so I picked PR statehood, because that is in the news.  I think that it is an interesting question, is support and opposition to statehood constant? or does it change dependent on good/bad economic news?  It is directly relevant to what is happening here and now in Puerto Rico, and if someone wants to find it, I think it would be better for them to look under the Americas threads, not current events, especially since this is an issue that has been going on since at least WWII, and probably since the Spanish-American War.
But don't let it bother you and, please, add your knowledge and insight to the subject here, in addition to the other threads you follow.  That way, information on the topic of PR statehood is listed under Americas and PR/statehood.  btw. I never have crossposted another thread, and so thank you for adding yours on the Greek situation and the current events thread, I didn't think of that.  And again, I think it is important to discuss PR more directly.


Edited by franciscosan - 16 Jul 2015 at 05:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2015 at 05:48
I carefully studied the statistics on Puerto Rico and found that public debt to GDP is lower than for the U.S. as a whole if you exclude unfunded mandates.  Puerto Rico like Greece has simply run out of ways to borrow money.  

A vote on Statehood should be mandated if for no other reason than for bookkeeping.  While looking at the statistic it became almost impossible to sort out how Puerto Rican economic issues were related to it's territorial status.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2015 at 05:51
I wonder (1) how Puerto Rico compares to other US overseas possessions (economically/politically)? 
(2) how the US, with its overseas possession, compares with Britain and France with the remnants of their empires?  Falkland Islands, so forth.  
I am interested in the (political) mindset that get PR, or say, Greece, into (economic) trouble.  I think Ireland and Iceland are doing better? as are P.I.G.S. except of course the G. which is Greece.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2015 at 06:15
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I wonder (1) how Puerto Rico compares to other US overseas possessions (economically/politically)? 
(2) how the US, with its overseas possession, compares with Britain and France with the remnants of their empires?  Falkland Islands, so forth.  
I am interested in the (political) mindset that get PR, or say, Greece, into (economic) trouble.  I think Ireland and Iceland are doing better? as are P.I.G.S. except of course the G. which is Greece.

One could be swayed to believe that the comparison made by the German economic minister reflects a type of colonial view.  Ethnic rivalries and exploitation have not been erased by the "global economy".  The idea of economic imperialism is much abused by the liberals but it would be absurd to believe it does not exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2015 at 03:37
Franciscosan,there was a time before commonwealth when schools in the island were taught in English. The result was under educated students who, on eht whole, had a basic knowledge of English but had missed much of the heart of the curricula. This was followed by the Commonwealth schools, which were taught in Spanish. The problem here was that outside the major metropolitan areas, English was being taught by people who barely spoke it themselves. Because of the colonial era, the teaching of English has always been a political football. 

I once wrote an article for An Cosantoir, the Irish Defence Journal, on the Puertorrican Military Forces, which is part of the U.S. National Guard. In the article, I mentioned that Spanish was the everyday language of the troops. By the time the article had been printed, the Statehood Party (PNP) had replaced the Commonwealth Party (PPD) (which harbored a Spanish only element), and a new General was in command of the 'Nacional'. When he saw the article he went through the roof, and dashed off a letter to the editorial board of An Cosantoir stating that the article was in error and that the Guardia Nacional was as American as any stateside National Guard and that all members of the force mastered English as a matter of course. The editorial board never contacted me for a rebuttal, after all, I was only a Captain. But the great irony is that one of my duties in my battalion was to train the radio operators in the most basic English radio-telephone procedure, and that was considered a major task. On one exercise we were supposed to fire mortars. But the mortar platoon wasn't able to get a single round off. The colonel sent me down to check, and I found two U.S. Army evaluators standing by, waiting for the mortars to fire. I immediately asked the mortar platoon sergeant (a neighbor back at home) what the problem was, and he told me the men were having trouble with the English commands. I asked the two 'Continental' Americans if it would be all right to conduct the firing using Spanish, and they, with more common sense than the fore-mentioned General, replied they didn't care what language the orders were given in, as long as the rounds hit the target. As soon as the Platoon Sergeant switched to Spanish, those rounds were going down range and hitting their targets.

That captures Puerto Rico's dilemma. They are quite capable of success in either world, but are held back by a fear of failure or change. That, in essence, was the genius of Commonwealth, under which they could be both Puertorrican and American, with the Stateside mainland absorbing those dispossessed of jobs and social status by the results. Fron the 50s to the 70s it worked very well. But the problem with Commonwealth is that times have changed. Puerto Rico has no strategic value to the United States, and it absorbs an inordinate amount of federal funds, much of which funds local projects that are often make work. The Puertorrican government is an "abogateca", a shop full of lawyers. Their mission is to ferret out every federal law providing funding, and find a way to get Puerto Rico's share. Remember the Americans with disabilities act? Every sidewalk in every town in Puerto Rico was made "wheelchair accessible". The quotes are there because on a great many Puerto Rican streets, the sidewalks are barely wide enough for a single skinny male to negotiate, much less support anyone wider than a 12' ruler in a wheelchair. But, it created jobs.

If you want more of an education on Puertorrican politics, google "Luis Davila-Colon" and pull up his articles if you can read Spanish.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PeaceB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2015 at 11:58
Puerto Rico is bankrupt. Why would America keep a big pile of financial burden in the long run?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2015 at 16:17
PeaceB, therein lies the ugly truth of the matter. The U.S. is far better at funding programs than they are at defunding them. GEN Nelson Miles' mission in 1898 was to seize and hold Puerto Rico. It was always intended to be one of the two key naval bases controlling access to and from the Caribbean when we were already considering a Panama (or Nicaraguan) Canal. Plus, the Navy needed coaling stations for our ships. The aircraft carrier and diesel fuel, coupled with long range aircraft, made both Guantanamo and Roosevelt Roads obsolete. "Rosy Roads" became a Naval training area in relation to Culebra and Vieques islands. Once Castro took over Cuba, Puerto Rico was seen as an anti-Communist bastion in the Caribbean, but it was really a bit player. Back in the early 2000's a web site was set up to track how much money the U.S. was pouring into PR. One statistic I remember from that site was $22 billion a year. I've long lost interest in the subject, but the reality is that the U.S. simply keeps pouring money in. I presume under the theory: If it's not broke, don't fix it. Which, essentially, was the sentiment that kept the Popular Party in power in PR for so long. Only now the PR pillar of the relationship obviously is broke. Will Congress take note? We'll see.

Puerto Rico is now in the position to force the Congress to face up to its status and act. Their dilemma is that the action Congress takes may not be what the majority want it will be; either statehood or an improved commonwealth. Congress has the power to simply cut all ties and force Puerto Rico into independence, thereby greatly reducing federal expenditures there. American citizens on the island would simply have to remain their as expatriot US citizens, but major immigration to the mainland is ore likely. My bet is that Florida would pick up another million Puertorricans. Ironically, it was a dispute with the Santo Domingo Audiencia over the location Puerto Rico's seat of government in the 1500s that spurred Ponce de Leon's expedition to Florida. (His neighbors had petitioned to move it to San Juan, but Ponce de Leon wished to remain in Caparra. He lost his appeal.)  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2015 at 06:08
One could argue that they are American citizens, and just as we help Mississippi, or other poor areas, maybe we should still help PR.  Do we kick them and discard them when they're down, or do we try to pick them up, and then send them on their way?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2015 at 16:40
There's no argument; they are American citizens. That gives them the right to live where they please inside the U.S., or abroad (depending upon the resident countries laws for expats). Living in an American unincorporated territory, they have the same right to petition for statehood that other territories had before becoming states, but also the right to petition for other statuses. The U.S., for its part, has the right to decide otherwise through the Congress (and the States in the case of Statehood).  There were, in 1995-97, a million Americans living in Mexico. After Independence, Puerto Rico would be no different. 

We are approaching the 1917 centennial of Puerto Rican U.S. citizenship. If after a century an overwhelming majority of Puertorricans can't vote for statehood, then they need to be shown the door.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2015 at 04:47
I guess I don't see any necessity in resolving the issue.  An ultimatum might be very emotionally satisfying, but I am not sure it would really help anything in either PR or the continental US.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2015 at 17:34
I do see a necessity to resolve the issue. I fail to see, however, how it could be emotionally satisfying to anyone but the hard line independentistas and ultra-nationalist Americans. Making hard life choices is never easy. IT would be like forcing a comfortable but contentious married coupled into a divorce. Something they need to do for their emotional well-being, but fraught with stress for one's financial stability. It would relieve the U.S. of the finalcial burden of maintaining Puerto Rico as a welfare state.

Could Puerto Rico survive as an independent country? Yes it could. But that would require some serious changes in the island's 'Ay Bendito' culture. Uruguay, Panama, and Costa Rica have survived with similarly small populations and territory.  And Singapore is far smaller with over one and a half times Puerto Rico's population, and it has a far better economy. Puerto Rico became a commonwealth in 1952, when South Korea, Singapore, and Taiwan (ROC) were far more underdeveloped. Yet fifty years later all three of those had really pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. Forcing Puerto Rico into independence could be the best thing that the U.S. ever did for that country, and itself. Or, it could provoke a nasty period of political strife on the island.  Either way, it would accrue economic benefits for the U.S. in the form of money not spent.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2015 at 06:21
Puerto Rico is definitely more real to you than it is to me, so I will concede to your greater knowledge.  I think it could be emotionally satisfying for people who really don't have an involvement, declaring it decided one way or another.  For example, I am not a fan of President Obama, and I kind of wonder if anything for the long term has been settled for health care, or has he just declared victory and created a whole new realm of problems.  I hear there is going to be a whole series of insurance companies consolidation into mega-corporations, and I can't imagine that will be good for 'the consumers'.  Same thing (in a different way) with Iran and the agreement there.  Does it solve anything, or are we going to figure out how bad it was when Tel Aviv starts to glow (followed soon after by Tehran)?  Maybe it was time to open up to Cuba, but President Obama didn't even try to bargain with Cuba about human rights dissidents.  
How do porcupines mate?  Very carefully, and that is how one should probably proceed for deciding on Puerto Rico.  There are better ways of handling it, and worse ways, let us try to figure out the former instead of rushing into the later.  Or maybe even it should be like a bandaid coming off, quickly and without much hand wringing before hand, again, I am largely on the outside, but I would worry about what is best for Puerto Rico, U.S. as a whole, not so much.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2015 at 06:22
lirelou, what does the quote at the bottom of your post say? Vietnamese?  or something else?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fintan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2015 at 16:26
Hello

(to lirelou)

As Puerto Rico is not a colony in UN list, you are right, or give them the independence or have to assume the colony status  or have to finish their actual status and get to the union some way. Cause this hispano-american* first spanish nation and after spanish colony, was winned by the arms force to Spain and reclaim by the Treaty of París.
But Puerto Rico is not a State, it is a Nation, and there is a confusion since the beggining. I think the best would be to declare independance from USA by the USA nation, and begin again like in 1898. Maybe you have to resurrect Citizen Cane to ask his opinion Smile.

*Words are important: Latinoamericano. The french invent this term "para dar por el culo" (sorry but this is the real reason) to Spain as a secondary latin nation (they are the first latin nation, according to then, of course).
Then  the term have this story (as the Spanish flu, other gift from our kind neighbourgs or the Borbones, history of a treason to Spain), the correct name is hispano-americano. That talk about their soul much better than latin that are the countries that have a language that comes from Latin, just.

Regards


Edited by Fintan - 25 Aug 2015 at 16:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fintan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2015 at 16:34
Hello franciscosan. It is not a question of opinion, that you can give, of course. It is a question of history and policy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fintan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2015 at 16:54
Can be compaired in the way they don't know what to do, the fair to failure is the key to his way of act.
I think somebody has name this reason. Anyway, the same that the greeks are not europeans, the puertorriquueños have not USA soul. This is a big problem, in my opinion, too.


Edited by Fintan - 25 Aug 2015 at 16:55
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