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RE: The truth nobody wants to know

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    Posted: 26 Jan 2013 at 19:19
Originally posted by <b>pinguin</b> pinguin wrote:

Please, don't compare the paradyse that is South America with the hell of Africa. Here we have plenty of water. But ours is not a region that appretiate or love Blacks.

They are going to move to Europe, the Middle East and China. Here, they will always be discriminated and seen as extraterrestrial alliens.
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"paradyse that is South America with the hell of Africa" - Looks like the imperialist won with that type of thinking. + its spelt "paradise"

"they will always be discriminated and seen as extraterrestrial alliens" - while living in Chile people were very welcoming. Brazil too, since black brazilians live there.

So I am an "African" but to be more accurate South African. Went to high school there and graduated in university along side many educated "extraterrestrial alliens". Travelled around the African continent visiting many countries that were pretty developed that no one ever talks about and since the discussion was "The truth nobody wants to know", I think the ironic truth about your purely racial "criticism" of Africa is the same as someone who simply watches the television and feels really good about how messed up the place is without asking themselves... why? why is it messed up? why does the media keep showing me these images? where are these images from? what is the context of the region?

I hope you have a good life without many black people in your life, since that is what you claim you and the rest of your people want. God forbid I, an african who supposedly has a very low IQ can hate on you for having that propposed good life.

--

There is a lot of history in Africa. Many countries in it are pretty wealthy and have good economies and culture that unfortunately was reformed to fit colonial made territories that weren't in line with the already existing tribe territories. This has led to conflicts that arise from peoples who began as, resisting giving away resources to the colonizers, to new generations eventually not melding well with other cultures or tribes they were forced create a country with, to new generations eventually losing touch of their history because of very little control of their own land.

There much more, but hey? i have a low IQ trying to make a change but not given a chance by people like you because you have already made up your mind about me. If you dont care and never intend to help why even make an effort to put down me and my fellow aliens?


Edited by Bhekuwenza - 26 Jan 2013 at 19:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2013 at 00:41
You quote me out of context. Now, the question is, do you prefer I lie?

I see Africa as a continent out of control, where people has a dozen children per couple, and then rush away to ask food to foreigners. I see it as a continent that hasn't do the homework as yet, and that will have a huge demographic problem in the near future. I see Africa as a continent with very little educated people, and even people that read. I don't expect this will change in the short term.

I hope I am wrong.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2013 at 12:38
There isn't much to take out of context - that kind of racism is always implicit in your posts, but you're entitled to your opinion.  It's just interesting how your tone changes when confronted by someone who is the subject of your abusive comments.

Oh, and welcome Bhekuwenza, hopefully you will stay beyond the stuff said in this thread and enjoy contributing here as part of our community.


Edited by Zagros - 29 Jan 2013 at 12:39
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bhekuwenza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2013 at 17:14
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You quote me out of context. Now, the question is, do you prefer I lie?

I see Africa as a continent out of control, where people has a dozen children per couple, and then rush away to ask food to foreigners. I see it as a continent that hasn't do the homework as yet, and that will have a huge demographic problem in the near future. I see Africa as a continent with very little educated people, and even people that read. I don't expect this will change in the short term.

I hope I am wrong.



Like Zagros stated, I didn't take your post out of context. I simply answered your comments with my own.

I haven't asked you to lie either. You actually have been telling the truth this whole time. Now I must stress this point I hope you understand. The truth is that you believe in your opinion. You have chosen to generalize a whole continent without any context because that is how you feel. Why should you lie about how your feel? It wont help other individuals such as my self to respond and hopefully make you understand, how your opinion AND what is actually going on are two different things.

Yes people in specific COUNTRIES within Africa are not educated. This is the same with individuals within countries of South America. Most of these individuals live in the country side and work just like individuals working off the land within China, etc. Now the context of this is that the growth of industry has forced people to adapt to western standards of living. What is happening in these places I mentioned happened in many now developed countries too.

Im not going to say everything is alright because it isn't. But not at the point you believe. I believe your type of thinking does not help anything at all. You can't understand. You probably don't even know that the wealthy African countries are actually investing in themselves and becoming huge opportunities for foreign investment. What they want is to keep control of their own land and not end up as cheap production hubs like unfortunate Caribbean and South American countries that produce fruits and various grains for some people in the west to live with great convenience.

Last thing I would like to get out of you is, what is education to you? what you have learn't in school? your expertise in economic growth or how you believe one should live their life? Now ask what type of values should they have, as opposed to the values of education you believe and have been taught in South America?

So if every African was educated to your understanding of education, will that change the position you put of an individual being put down because you clearly said we are aliens that deserve no respect in your country? is this then a concern for non educated africans or just plain hatred for blacks?

you are racist man.. just admit it. i have no problem with that, coz ill keep being black and meeting many like minded non blacks who believe in greater thing. Thats your lie.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bhekuwenza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2013 at 17:16
Thank you Zagros, I find this forum interesting as I didn't know it existed. This was a great way to start sharing my thoughts with other members. Negative or not... still a way.
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Almost all of post colonial governments are kleptocratic clients of the former masters. If not they were immensely incompetent due former masters chose them according to how favorably they viewed their former masters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arya19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2013 at 02:42
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

You quote me out of context. Now, the question is, do you prefer I lie?

I see Africa as a continent out of control, where people has a dozen children per couple, and then rush away to ask food to foreigners. I see it as a continent that hasn't do the homework as yet, and that will have a huge demographic problem in the near future. I see Africa as a continent with very little educated people, and even people that read. I don't expect this will change in the short term.

I hope I am wrong.


I have a feeling this is Dr.Gonzaga pulling your leg!LOL I admit that you have some biased views specially against British and Americans, but your love of Chilean Amerindian is praiseworthy and gave us a lot of info thank to you.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 00:25
You can bet the doctor is behind it.... and I'm not talking about Dr. Who LOL. Thanks!

Now, I don't take away anything of what I said. Africa is a continent where people main activity is reproduction, and they have 10 or more children each, so population is booming without control at all. And yes, theirs second activity is asking foreign help. I hope these guys start to work at last, and learn how hard the rest of the world work to get the bread, rise and educate theirs children... without charity. Good luck for them... and for us if they don't Shocked. And if Africans were blue eyed, Asiatic looking, green, blue or grey with yellow spots, I would be worried the same.


Edited by pinguin - 07 Feb 2013 at 00:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2013 at 21:29
Quote and they have 10 or more children each


Hate to do this (it is after all pure pedant-ism), but having studied Human Geography at university, I insist it counts for something.
Highest fertility rate in Africa is Niger at 7.16 (world's highest), followed by Mali and Somalia at around 6.30.
Lowest Fertility rates in Africa, Tunisia and Morocco, are actually lower than Europe's highest and of curse, lower than many South/Central American countries.
The continent average is closer to 5.

Nowhere on earth is the average fertility rate for a nation above 10.

Considering that most African countries are still primarily rural, this is hardly surprising. Indeed there is a very strong positive correlation between high rates of urbanisation and low fertility (and more importantly, low infant mortality).
And of course, working a paid job in a city, even low pay menial ones, usually makes more money than being a subsistence farmer, when women have money, or even better, earn their own, fertility rates fall further.

'Africa' (if indeed it is possible to speak of a continent in such simple homogeneous terms) is lowering its fertility rates all by itself, exactly the same way the rest of the planet did.
In the scale of human history, it wasn't that long ago that Napoleon was handing out national medals to women who gave birth or 20 children or more, for back then France was the birth rate Niger of Europe, and by extension, the world.


Edited by Cywr - 07 Feb 2013 at 21:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2013 at 03:00
Do you believe 5 is a low fertility rate? Gimme a break. By the time Subsaharan Africa controls its fertility, in 200 years that's the time when Napoleon lived, they will be 16 billions or more! Another point, Tunisia and Morocco aren't Subsaharan. The problem is south to them.
Subsaharan Africa, the continent of the future... because 90% of the people of tomorrow will be bantu. The rest will disappear in a flood of black population, escaping Africa just to eat. That's what they want, isn't?




Edited by pinguin - 08 Feb 2013 at 03:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2013 at 03:22
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Do you believe 5 is a low fertility rate? Gimme a break. By the time Subsaharan Africa controls its fertility, in 200 years that's the time when Napoleon lived, they will be 16 billions or more! Another point, Tunisia and Morocco aren't Subsaharan. The problem is south to them.
Subsaharan Africa, the continent of the future... because 90% of the people of tomorrow will be bantu. The rest will disappear in a flood of black population, escaping Africa just to eat. That's what they want, isn't?


Let's face it Mr P- you're troubled by the idea of all those black faces, are you not? Your ancestors (and mine) reproduced at quite high rates. And why not? It was assumed (correctly) many would die early, and others would be necessary to provide for their elders in old age. Survival was (and is to the present day marginalists existing today in places like sub-Saharan Africa) not at all assured, and so a few more people in the world would probably be better rather than worse, from a personal perspective. Now that you have (metaphorically speaking) made the jump to a more stable situation (Chile), you are kicking dirt on those left behind. It's doubly surprising because, as a writer who imagines other socities and other times, you cannot grasp this rather modest sociological difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2013 at 03:28
50 years ego Turkey's fertility rate was >6.00, now it's 2.01, don't worry too much. Beside, I think black girls are cute LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2013 at 02:27
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

Let's face it Mr P- you're troubled by the idea of all those black faces, are you not? Your ancestors (and mine) reproduced at quite high rates. And why not? It was assumed (correctly) many would die early, and others would be necessary to provide for their elders in old age. Survival was (and is to the present day marginalists existing today in places like sub-Saharan Africa) not at all assured, and so a few more people in the world would probably be better rather than worse, from a personal perspective. Now that you have (metaphorically speaking) made the jump to a more stable situation (Chile), you are kicking dirt on those left behind. It's doubly surprising because, as a writer who imagines other socities and other times, you cannot grasp this rather modest sociological difference.


Do you really believe Subsaharan Africa can change? Fellow, I have live a long time and SS Africa has always been the same. People there don't care about controlling population. Every couple wants to be the founder of their own tribe Confused. They are growing exponentially, and in the following decades they will escape Africa because that continent can't sustain so many people. But they will keep reproducing anyways, and that situation won't change up to the time Earth can't sustain them anymore (200 years). They won't change like the rest because the mentality of that people and those societies aren't the same as the rest. As simple as that. So, there is a very dark future for mankind, and I am not talking about racism here, but simply about a people that won't understand up to the time it is too late.

But anytime somebody see that pattern and complains, it is attacked with the same excuse about racism. Black Africans shield themselves of any criticism claiming racism! So, they are a kind of "chosen" people that will do whatever they wishes, and won't care., So, there is no way that behavior will change? Why would it change, anyways? In Africa males are kings, and females are reproductive machines. There children are cheap, and no much effort is done to educate them. Nobody care. In Africa people still lives in magic and people still practice voodoo and kills albines ! The worst problem of that continent is ignorance, and that will never change when teachers die from HIV. Confused

Yes, I am not very optimistic about mankind future, having a continent like Africa that menaces all the rest.





Edited by pinguin - 09 Feb 2013 at 02:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2013 at 04:33
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Do you really believe Subsaharan Africa can change? Fellow, I have live a long time and SS Africa has always been the same. People there don't care about controlling population. Every couple wants to be the founder of their own tribe Confused.
 
Really? When your captain was a young lad, Africa had a population more or less in keeping with other similar regions. Africa was thought of as a rather wild, empty place, in fact.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

They are growing exponentially, and in the following decades they will escape Africa because that continent can't sustain so many people. But they will keep reproducing anyways, and that situation won't change up to the time Earth can't sustain them anymore (200 years). They won't change like the rest because the mentality of that people and those societies aren't the same as the rest. As simple as that. So, there is a very dark future for mankind, and I am not talking about racism here, but simply about a people that won't understand up to the time it is too late.
 
That "mentality" is pretty similar to other ethnic groups, in comparable historical situations.
The Catholics were exhorted to reproduce, and fill the world. And they did- and they still are, in some regions. Twelve, fifteen, sixteen kids per family, do you remember that? Not that long ago in Chile I bet. It wasn't that long ago in French speaking, Catholic Quebec, either.
 
And it is still going on, not only in Africa. Afghanistan and Pakistan have some of the highest birthrates on the planet, for example. Why? Because  many there see no future, and certainly no security for themselves, and so having offspring to provide for them in old age is at least a hope. The worry of overpopulating the planet is a far more distant menace than the myriod problems literaly at the door for these people. And for some with no education, it is merely an abstraction, with little meaning.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


But anytime somebody see that pattern and complains, it is attacked with the same excuse about racism. Black Africans shield themselves of any criticism claiming racism! So, they are a kind of "chosen" people that will do whatever they wishes, and won't care.,
 
It is racism if you condemn Africans without condemning all others, including your own anscestors, and many of those alive today, including the above mentioned places, and others.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 So, there is no way that behavior will change? Why would it change, anyways? In Africa males are kings, and females are reproductive machines. There children are cheap, and no much effort is done to educate them. Nobody care. In Africa people still lives in magic and people still practice voodoo and kills albines ! The worst problem of that continent is ignorance, and that will never change when teachers die from HIV. Confused

Yes, I am not very optimistic about mankind future, having a continent like Africa that menaces all the rest.



 
A male dominated society that still believes in magic, and where ignorance is widespread. Hmmm. That could apply to large swaths of Latin America, could it not? And also the USA for that matter. The Muslim world, well, we hardly need to mention.
 
You have separated out one of the most benighted portions of the world, but the charges you are making apply to many others. That leaves race. You're sure it's not those black faces you're worried about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2013 at 05:48
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

When your captain was a young lad, Africa had a population more or less in keeping with other similar regions.

I thought you were of my age or so... If I remember correctly Parnell, Dolphin, Al Jassas and me was roughly of same ages. I think my memory is merged there. So, I guess you served a term as an office boy back in those days Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2013 at 14:27
Quote Really? When your captain was a young lad, Africa had a population more or less in keeping with other similar regions. Africa was thought of as a rather wild, empty place, in fact.


This.
In relation to the size of their countries, many African countries are underpopulated by Eurasian standards.
And again, development and urbanisation brings birth rates down, the most economicly developed countries in non-Mediterranean Africa (which have been relatively highly urbanised and developed for some time) are in the south, and they have amongst the lowest fertility rates in Africa.

The other big factor, the elephant in the room that the demographicly illiterate can't, or just plain wont see, is age structures, countries can have high natural growth rates and competitively low fertility rates due to there being shed loads of young people, but this growth just isn't sustainable. As the current young 2.1 family age group grows older, they form a bulge in the population that moves upwards, resulting in a rapid fall in the growth rate. We can observe this with the so-called boomer generation in many societies that were already developed by WWII (including Japan).

More recently we can look at how in Thailand, Vietnam and Singapore, fertility and growth rates fell rapidly (within a generation) to their current level which is probably lower than the European average. This is currently happening in Malaysia and the Philippines, and probably has already happened in Indonesia (just a matter of statistics catching up). It wasn't that long ago that the 'oh noes too much breeding' whiners were pointing their fingers at south east Asia.

Throw in more educated women (= delayed motherhood), and really, its just a matter of placing bets on which African country's fertility rate will fall the fastest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 00:07
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
A male dominated society that still believes in magic, and where ignorance is widespread. Hmmm. That could apply to large swaths of Latin America, could it not? And also the USA for that matter. The Muslim world, well, we hardly need to mention.


Don't be ridiculous. You can't compare a region like Latin America, where 90% of people read and write, at least, with Subsaharan Africa that is an analphabet population.
You still have the master mentality of protecting "poor back people". Give me a break. Think about the ecological impact that ever growing mass of people will produce in the planet as a whole.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 09:01
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
A male dominated society that still believes in magic, and where ignorance is widespread. Hmmm. That could apply to large swaths of Latin America, could it not? And also the USA for that matter. The Muslim world, well, we hardly need to mention.


Don't be ridiculous. You can't compare a region like Latin America, where 90% of people read and write, at least, with Subsaharan Africa that is an analphabet population.
You still have the master mentality of protecting "poor back people". Give me a break. Think about the ecological impact that ever growing mass of people will produce in the planet as a whole.

You are crowing about the fact that some indicators place Latin American countries ahead (slightly in some cases) of African ones. Yet Latin America has at least a 120 year head start in development, if we look at independence as a baseline- not much of  a record. And they are frail indicators indeed. Latin America has seen some of the worst exhibits of crime, violence, and civil disorder anywhere, from high murder rates generally, to an ongoing drug war in Mexico, to extreme poverty and virtual urban warfare in Brazil, to crazed, brutal generals in Argentina and Chile. And those are just some of the main acts.
 
And from an environmental perspective, Africa's footprint is quite small, due to the tiny size of economies there. How it will play out in the future we don't know, but we do know how other countries are respecting the environment right now. Brazil has been busy burning up the Amazon, China is burning coal like there is no tomorrow, Americans want three cars in every driveway, and we could go on. We also know that birthrates tend to fall rapidly with increases in development, wealth, and education. 
 
It's tricky throwing stones if one lives in a glass house, Mr P.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 10:51
Originally posted by Bhekuwenza Bhekuwenza wrote:

 
Yes people in specific COUNTRIES within Africa are not educated. This is the same with individuals within countries of South America. Most of these individuals live in the country side and work just like individuals working off the land within China, etc. Now the context of this is that the growth of industry has forced people to adapt to western standards of living. What is happening in these places I mentioned happened in many now developed countries too.


Bhekuwenza. In specific countries? Why you try to cover the sun with the finger? Subsaharan Africa is the poorest continent worldwide. The exception is, perhaps, South Africa, which receive wave after wave of immigrants, and where xenophobia is generalized among the black people of that country, who don't want more people to come!

Originally posted by Bhekuwenza Bhekuwenza wrote:


 I believe your type of thinking does not help anything at all. You can't understand. You probably don't even know that the wealthy African countries are actually investing in themselves and becoming huge opportunities for foreign investment.
What they want is to keep control of their own land and not end up as cheap production hubs like unfortunate Caribbean and South American countries that produce fruits and various grains for some people in the west to live with great convenience.


Caribbean and South American countries have a standard of living ten times that of Africa. There are countries left behind, for sure, like Guatemala, Bolivia and Haiti, that had the same mentality of those Africans that don't want foreigners.
I also know the only hope for Africa seems to be the Chinese, who are the only people really taking Subsaharan Africa seriously. But they have to import theirs own skilled workers and engineers Confused

Originally posted by Bhekuwenza Bhekuwenza wrote:

Last thing I would like to get out of you is, what is education to you? what you have learn't in school? your expertise in economic growth or how you believe one should live their life? Now ask what type of values should they have, as opposed to the values of education you believe and have been taught in South America?


The only "values" that are worth for development are the Free Market Economy and investing in human resources. The hard true is that SS Africans lack the education necessary to become modern societies.

Originally posted by Bhekuwenza Bhekuwenza wrote:


So if every African was educated to your understanding of education, will that change the position you put of an individual being put down because you clearly said we are aliens that deserve no respect in your country? is this then a concern for non educated africans or just plain hatred for blacks?


Let me put in this way. Would a country like the U.S. be a intellectual, economical and military powerhouse, if theirs population were mainly hilly billies? Or if the intellectual elite were composed of the countryside "rednecks" or make of the cities' "white trash"?
All countries have uneducated and rustic people, all have criminals and alienated people. The difference is that in the developed world most people is college educated, in a second cathegory countries, like in developing Asia and Latin America, most people at least are high school graduates! In Africa most people haven't finish preparatory school and at least half the population is analphabet. The difference is huge.

Originally posted by Bhekuwenza Bhekuwenza wrote:

you are racist man.. just admit it. i have no problem with that, coz ill keep being black and meeting many like minded non blacks who believe in greater thing. Thats your lie.


Crying racism once again? So, SS Africa has the right to grow exponentially and receive all the humanitarian help, to keep reproducing without control, just because they are blacks?
 
Africa is the same as Haiti, countries dominated by the African superstitious mentality. There are black countries which are not such poor at all, like Bahamas or Trinidad and Tobago, but the difference lies in the fact they could be blacks but they aren't Africans in culture. The difference is social and cultural. It is the SS African traditions, customs, superstitions and mentality which are stopping them to make the change.





Edited by pinguin - 10 Feb 2013 at 10:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 11:07
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


You are crowing about the fact that some indicators place Latin American countries ahead (slightly in some cases) of African ones. Yet Latin America has at least a 120 year head start in development, if we look at independence as a baseline- not much of  a record. And they are frail indicators indeed. Latin America has seen some of the worst exhibits of crime, violence, and civil disorder anywhere, from high murder rates generally, to an ongoing drug war in Mexico, to extreme poverty and virtual urban warfare in Brazil, to crazed, brutal generals in Argentina and Chile. And those are just some of the main acts.


The most brutal region worldwide has been Europe, with 50 million dead during WW II alone.
Now, the economical differences between Latin America and Africa aren't slight as you say, but huge. In 1960 Africa, most Asia and Latin America were at the same level, but in that time the economical development and the education have diverged. Half a century after, Asia and Latin America have educated theirs populations and have developed manufacturing and infrastructure. Today, Africa is at the level of the least developed countries of Asia and Latin America.
With respect to brutal criminals, only in places like El Salvador and Guatemala there has been civil wars with half a million deaths, at the level of a Spanish civil war. In Africa there have been worst violence, like the Rwanda killings. Have you forgotten?

Some Latin American countries, particularly Mexico, have an important problem with thugs and control of criminality, that's true. But still, they keep developing. Compare, for instance, Brazil with Canada. In the 80s Brazil just has the GDP of Canada, today has a GDP higher than BritainConfused. And that country has become the SECOND more industrialized country of the Americas, leaving behind Canada. Not bad for a "third" world country, isn't?
 
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


And from an environmental perspective, Africa's footprint is quite small, due to the tiny size of economies there. How it will play out in the future we don't know, but we do know how other countries are respecting the environment right now. Brazil has been busy burning up the Amazon, China is burning coal like there is no tomorrow, Americans want three cars in every driveway, and we could go on. We also know that birthrates tend to fall rapidly with increases in development, wealth, and education. 


Have you calculated how much land it is required to feed 1 billion people? And 2 billions in a generation more, and 4 in two generations? And 8 in tree generations?

Sure, all the foreign food Africa receive don't impact SS Africa, but other continents. The simple truth is that Africa import most its food! Do you know that most of the Amazon dies, not to feed Brazilians, who has its needs covered, but Africans? Get informed. The ecological impact is huge.

SS Africa birthrate won't decline. Haiti has the same problems that SS Africa, and will never change, and that's the real future of that continent.




Edited by pinguin - 10 Feb 2013 at 11:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 11:35
Originally posted by Cywr Cywr wrote:


This.
In relation to the size of their countries, many African countries are underpopulated by Eurasian standards.


If Africa had the density of Europe... They will have a population of 30 billion people, isn't? Will Africa be the next India, at a very large scale? That's what the world need? Even today, Africa is overpopulated by the standards of the Americas, Australia, Canada or the Arctic regions. And from where will come all that food? Even today Africa imports half of what it eat!

Originally posted by Cywr Cywr wrote:


And again, development and urbanisation brings birth rates down, the most economicly developed countries in non-Mediterranean Africa (which have been relatively highly urbanised and developed for some time) are in the south, and they have amongst the lowest fertility rates in Africa.

The other big factor, the elephant in the room that the demographicly illiterate can't, or just plain wont see, is age structures, countries can have high natural growth rates and competitively low fertility rates due to there being shed loads of young people, but this growth just isn't sustainable. As the current young 2.1 family age group grows older, they form a bulge in the population that moves upwards, resulting in a rapid fall in the growth rate. We can observe this with the so-called boomer generation in many societies that were already developed by WWII (including Japan).

More recently we can look at how in Thailand, Vietnam and Singapore, fertility and growth rates fell rapidly (within a generation) to their current level which is probably lower than the European average. This is currently happening in Malaysia and the Philippines, and probably has already happened in Indonesia (just a matter of statistics catching up). It wasn't that long ago that the 'oh noes too much breeding' whiners were pointing their fingers at south east Asia.

Throw in more educated women (= delayed motherhood), and really, its just a matter of placing bets on which African country's fertility rate will fall the fastest.


Yes, but that is simply theory. Is there any indicator that Africa is changing? After 50 years of trying, Africa is still at fertility rates of 5%, and its population continue to be mostly analphabet. Is there any hope on it?

Just show me a SINGLE indicator things are changing in Africa. A single indicator.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 19:18
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The most brutal region worldwide has been Europe, with 50 million dead during WW II alone.
 
Doesn't work Mr P. If Iran gets its hands on nuclear weapons, and launches a war, then they, by these standards, it will be the most brutal region in history. It is not of course, cetainly not when considering the average Iranian, or Iranian history in general. Extremist regimes with their hands on dangerous technology do not necessarily indicate a murderous population.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Now, the economical differences between Latin America and Africa aren't slight as you say, but huge. In 1960 Africa, most Asia and Latin America were at the same level, but in that time the economical development and the education have diverged. Half a century after, Asia and Latin America have educated theirs populations and have developed manufacturing and infrastructure. Today, Africa is at the level of the least developed countries of Asia and Latin America.
 
It depends on your starting point, and other criteria. After nearly 200 years of independent development, Latin America is just now nearing first world status, in some regions, although with considerable sociological problems remaining. That's a slow process, to be sure. Africa is 2 generations in, and you are alleging racial inferiority because they have not moved faster. Let's take a look at some of those huge figures. Literacy rates in, for example: Brazil 88%, Mexico 90%, Chile 95%. Not bad, but still not quite first world standards (after all that time). Some examples from Africa: South Africa 87%, DR Congo (a region torn apart by war and chaos) about 67%, Tanzania (impovershed and desperate for money) 70%. Not bad, I'd say, given the challenges.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


With respect to brutal criminals, only in places like El Salvador and Guatemala there has been civil wars with half a million deaths, at the level of a Spanish civil war. In Africa there have been worst violence, like the Rwanda killings. Have you forgotten?
 
I haven't forgotten. I also remember the brutal 30 year civil war in Columbia, the Shinning Path in Peru, the war against organized crime in Mexico, the sky high murder rates in most of Central America, the "disapeared" in Argentina, the Falklands War, the miliary dictatorship in Chile, and others. This is a classic case of the kettle calling the pot "black", if you will excuse the pun.

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Some Latin American countries, particularly Mexico, have an important problem with thugs and control of criminality, that's true. But still, they keep developing. Compare, for instance, Brazil with Canada. In the 80s Brazil just has the GDP of Canada, today has a GDP higher than BritainConfused. And that country has become the SECOND more industrialized country of the Americas, leaving behind Canada. Not bad for a "third" world country, isn't?
 
Better late than never, I say. They stumbled for two centuries, but are now doing better, so good on 'em. Now if Brazil could do something about one of the  most polarized distributions of wealth in the world, one that now compels some of the  richest to commute by helicopter, as armoured cars are too dangerous for them in the violent and crime ridden streets, they would be doing even better.
 
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
Have you calculated how much land it is required to feed 1 billion people? And 2 billions in a generation more, and 4 in two generations? And 8 in tree generations?

Sure, all the foreign food Africa receive don't impact SS Africa, but other continents. The simple truth is that Africa import most its food! Do you know that most of the Amazon dies, not to feed Brazilians, who has its needs covered, but Africans? Get informed. The ecological impact is huge.

SS Africa birthrate won't decline. Haiti has the same problems that SS Africa, and will never change, and that's the real future of that continent.


 
Do you remember the Club of Rome? They made dire predictions about overpopulation back in the '60s. We were all to be dead from starvation by now, they thought. In fact we have seen fertility rates plummet as economic conditions improved, and societies became more stable and egalitarian. You are freaking out because you are looking at a line on a graph that is going sharply up, but you are not considering the historical trend of lines that seem to go only in one direction.
 
As for Brazil, I highly doubt that they are trashing their own environment, and going against world opinion, in order to provide noble aid to Africa. My guess is that a lot of that cleared land goes to producing beef for the McJunkFood establishments around the world. But if you have some figures, let's see them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2013 at 21:08
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

...Africa is 2 generations in, and you are alleging racial inferiority because they have not moved faster.


I am not alleging racial inferiority. I am alleging CULTURAL inferiority. I am alleging ignorance and widespread analphabetism, no matter you could tricks yours figure all what you like. They aren't going to move faster; they won't move, but still they will keep reproducing like crazy. They don't care, because the more children they have the less they work. As simple as that. Is theirs "ancestral" culture.

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Let's take a look at some of those huge figures.
Better late than never, I say. They stumbled for two centuries, but are now doing better, so good on 'em. Now if Brazil could do something about one of the  most polarized distributions of wealth in the world, one that now compels some of the  richest to commute by helicopter, as armoured cars are too dangerous for them in the violent and crime ridden streets, they would be doing even better.


Could be. But still Brazil manufactures more than Canada and it has as much resources as Britain.
And Brazil has an European based elite as well informed about the world like anyone in the States and Europe.
 
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 Do you remember the Club of Rome? They made dire predictions about overpopulation back in the '60s. We were all to be dead from starvation by now, they thought.


Sure those guys did theirs jobs. But they didn't take into account that most of the Third World would develop but SS Africa. However, if it weren't for western charity, and good people like yourself that feed the poor of the world (which means "give food to Africans"), well, Africans would be starving to death right now. Africa imports an ever increasing amount of the food that consumes, and the money to buy that food comes from abroad.

The Rome club just forgot to consider that when Africans eat all its resources, somebody will feed them for free.

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


As for Brazil, I highly doubt that they are trashing their own environment, and going against world opinion, in order to provide noble aid to Africa.


So it is "noble" to burn the Amazon to feed Africa? That's what happening right now. Calculate how much land and water is needed to feed a billion Africans. And take into account Africa is not a very fertile land at all, lacks water and everything. Have you seen how food imports grow in Africa? The U.N., the World Bank, the agricultural subsidies, the religious sects and Charity Inc. (feed the "world") pay the bills.

First, Africa versus the world in food production per capita



How productive is Africa in cereal production




From FAO. Africa Net Food Importer

http://www.fao.org/docrep/015/i2497e/i2497e00.pdf

Just an important clue, in 2007 Africa imported 40 billions US$ in food!





Edited by pinguin - 10 Feb 2013 at 21:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2013 at 01:00
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

...Africa is 2 generations in, and you are alleging racial inferiority because they have not moved faster.


I am not alleging racial inferiority. I am alleging CULTURAL inferiority. I am alleging ignorance and widespread analphabetism, no matter you could tricks yours figure all what you like. They aren't going to move faster; they won't move, but still they will keep reproducing like crazy. They don't care, because the more children they have the less they work. As simple as that. Is theirs "ancestral" culture.
 
Prejudice is implicit whenever one uses phrases like " They are all like this" or "They are all like that". No population is all like anything, certainly not one this large. There is always a wide spectrum of human behavior based on fundamentals, with culture only a thin top coating of notions that goes in and out of vogue, and which not all subscribe to.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


Let's take a look at some of those huge figures.
Better late than never, I say. They stumbled for two centuries, but are now doing better, so good on 'em. Now if Brazil could do something about one of the  most polarized distributions of wealth in the world, one that now compels some of the  richest to commute by helicopter, as armoured cars are too dangerous for them in the violent and crime ridden streets, they would be doing even better.


Could be. But still Brazil manufactures more than Canada and it has as much resources as Britain.
And Brazil has an European based elite as well informed about the world like anyone in the States and Europe.
 
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 Do you remember the Club of Rome? They made dire predictions about overpopulation back in the '60s. We were all to be dead from starvation by now, they thought.


Sure those guys did theirs jobs. But they didn't take into account that most of the Third World would develop but SS Africa. However, if it weren't for western charity, and good people like yourself that feed the poor of the world (which means "give food to Africans"), well, Africans would be starving to death right now. Africa imports an ever increasing amount of the food that consumes, and the money to buy that food comes from abroad.

The Rome club just forgot to consider that when Africans eat all its resources, somebody will feed them for free.

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:


As for Brazil, I highly doubt that they are trashing their own environment, and going against world opinion, in order to provide noble aid to Africa.


So it is "noble" to burn the Amazon to feed Africa? That's what happening right now. Calculate how much land and water is needed to feed a billion Africans. And take into account Africa is not a very fertile land at all, lacks water and everything. Have you seen how food imports grow in Africa? The U.N., the World Bank, the agricultural subsidies, the religious sects and Charity Inc. (feed the "world") pay the bills.

First, Africa versus the world in food production per capita



How productive is Africa in cereal production




From FAO. Africa Net Food Importer

http://www.fao.org/docrep/015/i2497e/i2497e00.pdf

Just an important clue, in 2007 Africa imported 40 billions US$ in food!



Poverty can be a downward spiral of debt, lack of infrastructue spending, lack of ability to attract private investors, and a lack of political power, leading often to exploitation by others. High fertility rates tend to prevail when people see no hope, and a strong family is the only security available. But this can change, as we have seen in a number of countries.
 
Overpopulation is an issue in several parts of the world, not just Africa. Cities in east Asia are often shrouded in smog, rivers a chemical soup, and landscapes stripped away to use every available space. The Indian subcontinent faces massive problems with population, perhaps unsolveable.
 
Food is not the essential problem in the world today; there is enough to go around. The problem is bringing everyone into a world system where meangingful work is available, incomes reasonably spread around, and to do this without recking the environment. I don't care if African imports $40 billion worth of food. China imports $75 billion. Even here in my (admittedly affluent) corner of the globe, we are not self-sufficient in food, producing only about half consumption, and it's not a problem. Here in North America, we probably waste enough food to feed large parts of Africa.
 
The trick is to have something of value to sell. Africa needs to get rid of its corrupt leadership, and have real investment, not just aid and exploitation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2013 at 02:00
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

... 
The trick is to have something of value to sell. Africa needs to get rid of its corrupt leadership, and have real investment, not just aid and exploitation.


No Captain. The trick is stopping irresponsible breeding. Asia and Latin America (in varying degrees, depending on the country) have the same problems that Africa has today, just 50 years ago. In both regions fertility declined sharply, and development started to work.

While Africans don't understand this simple fact, they will continue to be poor, and they will threaten the survival of everybody else. 1 billion is not a small population. If they keep breeding at this rate (as they have been doing since the early 20th century), not only the will be as ignorant and poor in need like today, but they will even be worst. In just one century they could be 16 billion, in a world of perhaps 26 billion. Just imagine a world with more than 4 times today's population! Confused  In the verge of global collapse. And just because every African couple wants to found its own tribe, to dance Watusi!! Just imagine the kind of world it would be with that number of people.

Sure, since the beginning of civilization, the developed world had problems with the barbarians. The Chinese build the China wall, and the Roman the Adrian wall for the same reason. Today, in a global world without barriers, the primitive patterns of certain groups menaces the survival of everyone else.

And you are wrong. Today, only Africa has this problem. Asia is not exploding anymore, and Latin America neither.




Edited by pinguin - 12 Feb 2013 at 02:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2013 at 19:30
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

... 
The trick is to have something of value to sell. Africa needs to get rid of its corrupt leadership, and have real investment, not just aid and exploitation.


No Captain. The trick is stopping irresponsible breeding. Asia and Latin America (in varying degrees, depending on the country) have the same problems that Africa has today, just 50 years ago. In both regions fertility declined sharply, and development started to work.
 
This is a circular arguement. Fertility rates dropped because development occured, and people saw a better life with smaller families, and economic development was easier with smaller growth rates.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


While Africans don't understand this simple fact, they will continue to be poor, and they will threaten the survival of everybody else. 1 billion is not a small population. If they keep breeding at this rate (as they have been doing since the early 20th century), not only the will be as ignorant and poor in need like today, but they will even be worst. In just one century they could be 16 billion, in a world of perhaps 26 billion. Just imagine a world with more than 4 times today's population! Confused  In the verge of global collapse. And just because every African couple wants to found its own tribe, to dance Watusi!! Just imagine the kind of world it would be with that number of people.
 
The UN estimates world population will level off at somewhere around 10 billion by mid-century. And we have seen fertility rates drop as education and development improves in country after country. If you think this cannot happen in Africa due to "African culture" or the black races, then this is a manifestation of your prejudice, not an estimate based on historical precedent.
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Sure, since the beginning of civilization, the developed world had problems with the barbarians. The Chinese build the China wall, and the Roman the Adrian wall for the same reason. Today, in a global world without barriers, the primitive patterns of certain groups menaces the survival of everyone else.

And you are wrong. Today, only Africa has this problem. Asia is not exploding anymore, and Latin America neither.


 
Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, and others are all "exploding" to the same, or in some cases, more extent than Africa, as were your own ancestors, more than likely. This does not mean they will in the future; our experience to date tells us it will not be the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2013 at 01:22
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

 
This is a circular arguement. Fertility rates dropped because development occured, and people saw a better life with smaller families, and economic development was easier with smaller growth rates.
 
The UN estimates world population will level off at somewhere around 10 billion by mid-century. And we have seen fertility rates drop as education and development improves in country after country. If you think this cannot happen in Africa due to "African culture" or the black races, then this is a manifestation of your prejudice, not an estimate based on historical precedent.
 
Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, and others are all "exploding" to the same, or in some cases, more extent than Africa, as were your own ancestors, more than likely. This does not mean they will in the future; our experience to date tells us it will not be the case.


Well, Aghanistan, Saudi Arabia and Palestine have quite small populations. Pakistan could be the exception, but most of the problem today is in Africa. Let's hope that continent develop, and fast! Otherwise, everybody is doomed. For the good of Africans and mankind as a whole, let's hope SS Africans get educated and abandon theirs traditional superstitions and stubborn ignorance.




Edited by pinguin - 13 Feb 2013 at 01:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2013 at 18:12
Europe and America have already had eir population explosions, Africa has not because of the relative delay in its urbanisation - it like many other areas of the world is experiencing the turbulence of modernisation.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2013 at 22:06
Quote If Africa had the density of Europe... They will have a population of 30 billion people, isn't? Will Africa be the next India, at a very large scale? That's what the world need? Even today, Africa is overpopulated by the standards of the Americas, Australia, Canada or the Arctic regions. And from where will come all that food? Even today Africa imports half of what it eat


Africa is roughly half the population density of Europe. Asia (whole thing) is most densely populated, but contains the least densely populated nation (Mongolia).

Quote Just show me a SINGLE indicator things are changing in Africa. A single indicator.


Population of Africa grew slower 2000-2010 than during 1990-2000. % of the population that is urban also increased.

Quote No Captain. The trick is stopping irresponsible breeding. Asia and Latin America (in varying degrees, depending on the country) have the same problems that Africa has today, just 50 years ago. In both regions fertility declined sharply, and development started to work.


General trend is for development to occur with a resulting fall in fertility, not the other way around.

Quote And you are wrong. Today, only Africa has this problem. Asia is not exploding anymore, and Latin America neither.


And yet there are Latin American and Asian countries that are growing faster than some sub-Saharan African countries. Or do they automaticly get the benefit of the doubt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2013 at 00:15
Originally posted by Cywr Cywr wrote:


And yet there are Latin American and Asian countries that are growing faster than some sub-Saharan African countries. Or do they automaticly get the benefit of the doubt.


Asian? Perhaps the small countries of Palestine and Afghanistan. But in Latin America? Show your sources, please. Look the stats. Sub Saharan Africa has almost the monopoly of population growth. I wonder why everybody is happy that Subsaharan African people breed like rabbits and nobody complains, while in the 70s everybody or Mexico. It is population growth of China or Mexico. It is perhaps a sort of reverse racism? Only subsaharan Africans have the blessing of everybody for reproducing as fast as they can because they are blacks?, and nobody should say anything, to avoid been called "racist"? Confused




Edited by pinguin - 16 Feb 2013 at 00:20
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