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"Refudiate"

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    Posted: 16 Nov 2010 at 02:46
Just when you thought her TV show was fun to watch, in the typical amusing reality show type of way, now the New American Oxford Dictionary gives credence to her coinage.

"'Refudiate,' 'misunderestimate,' 'wee-wee'd up.' English is a living language. Shakespeare liked to coin new words too. Got to celebrate it!'" --a Tweet sent by Sarah Palin, July 18, 2010


OK, I give up! Alaska is now king of all things good in life. The center of our literary world. I am *shamazed over all of this - a bewildered post of acknowledgment by Seko, November 15 2010

* shocked and amazedLOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2010 at 03:16
When is a prefix not a prefix?

Answer:  When it is Palinized
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2010 at 07:31
Some people are perfectly intelligent even though their rhetorical skills are a bit poor.

Not Palin, she's just plain dumb as mud.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 00:57
I don't get this liberal disgust for Sarah Palin & Company? Then again, i do roll my eyes when my fellow Conservatives criticize the perceived extravagance of our first lady Michelle Obama. Thankfully, the Obama children have been left virtually untouched by criticism from the right, as common decency dictates it should be. For how long though is determined by how low anybody is willing to go just in order to get one in on their political opposites? I'm just saying....

BTW... stop me if anyone has heard this joke, "What happens when you combine an eligible Wisconsin voter, alcohol, television, dancing with the stars program and a shot gun? You get... oh! It's no longer a joke you say? It's finally become reality?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-palinrage,0,5083049.story

I don't know about anyone else, but the ideological rage in this country is becoming freaking ridiculous and needlessly frightening!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 01:29
I watched her interview with Katie Couric. Enough said. Dumb as mud.

There is no bias here, the woman is simply of below average intelligence. Most of my relatives, being poor and not well educated, are better able to articulate a coherent vision of what their country should be doing in real terms than Sarah. Palin in that interview, despite lots of help and prepping, simply could not.

Fail.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 03:04
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

I watched her interview with Katie Couric. Enough said. Dumb as mud.

 
One interview? Wow, it took me at least a year of watching our current president to draw the same conclusion. Wink
 
I kid, I kid.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 03:14
Akolouthos, it was like watching Miss South Carolina all over again. Let's compare the two videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txfqWzGMgmY&feature=fvst

Just a heap of rambling buzz words with no thought or meaning or understanding to be found in any of them. The sloppy improvisations of two people not used to thinking very hard. One of them hasn't ruled out running for President.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 03:16
Dumb or just naive, whatever it is... she is just kidding herself in thinking the media is going to be fair to her. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 03:29
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Dumb or just naive, whatever it is... she is just kidding herself in thinking the media is going to be fair to her. 


What's unfair about calling a person unfit for large responsibilities for what they are: unprepared, intellectually stunted, vague and lacking in substance.

It's not a kind thing to do. But deciding who directs the world's biggest economy with the most military power isn't a charity drive: it ought to be a fiercely contested meritocratic competition in which the most capable candidate is chosen.

If she has as many glaring deficiencies as she does and she still insists on impressing on people the need to put her in power, then she had better be prepared to be critiqued!

The only reason the media jeer at her more is because she gives them more to jeer about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 03:48
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


What's unfair about calling a person unfit for large responsibilities for what they are: unprepared, intellectually stunted, vague and lacking in substance.


Sounds like what the media should have done with Obama but didn't.

Quote
It's not a kind thing to do. But deciding who directs the world's biggest economy with the most military power isn't a charity drive: it ought to be a fiercely contested meritocratic competition in which the most capable candidate is chosen.


I quite agree. However, i do not trust the legacy media to make the decision for me, which is what i felt they had erroneously done in our last Presidential election. As long the internet remains free of control, the best source of personal information will be at ones finger tips. Having said that, it does come at a price, the more you know about your candidate of choice the less enthusiastic you can become at election time. I don't know if this a problem only effecting the US or not, but our current crop of politicians leave a whole d@mn lot to be desired!

Quote
If she has as many glaring deficiencies as she does and she still insists on impressing on people the need to put her in power, then she had better be prepared to be critiqued!


I do admit, i sympathize with her position the media imposes on her, however that does not equate into capturing my vote. With her current naive actions of aggressively pursuing a media strategy of exposure has not seemed to have translated into any better understanding of her, other than the negative.

Quote
The only reason the media jeer at her more is because she gives them more to jeer about.


Well, either that or the fact that most media outlets are overwhelmingly full of conservative hating liberals may have something to do with it. Not that i am saying that liberals themselves hate conservatives, just that those who choose the journalist profession seem to be the ones who let their spiteful hatred shine through for other well meaning conservatives too see! In effect, alienating half the viewership!


Edited by Panther - 19 Nov 2010 at 03:49
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Sounds like what the media should have done with Obama but didn't.


Fair point. I was never in favour of the guy. I always thought Hillary actually had more in the way of concrete plans on how to fix the mess.

Quote I quite agree. However, i do not trust the legacy media to make the decision for me, which is what i felt they had erroneously done in our last Presidential election. As long the internet remains free of control, the best source of personal information will be at ones finger tips. Having said that, it does come at a price, the more you know about your candidate of choice the less enthusiastic you can become at election time. I don't know if this a problem only effecting the US or not, but our current crop of politicians leave a whole d@mn lot to be desired!


Be careful, though. There are an awfully large number of blogs and op-ed pieces where the authors are less accountable than any journalist and can never be relied upon to be impartial or fair. The internet contains the very worst information around, but sometimes some quality can be found in there if one is careful.

Quote

I do admit, i sympathize with her position the media imposes on her, however that does not equate into capturing my vote. With her current naive actions of aggressively pursuing a media strategy of exposure has not seemed to have translated into any better understanding of her, other than the negative.


A not especially bright person decides she could be given lots of power and sets out to very clumsily convince people smarter than herself they should give her lots of power and money. She doesn't prepare, didn't try hard enough to educate herself on important issues and doesn't develop a vision of how to help society.

When put under critical pressure her lack of intellect and previous work causes her to crash.

You reap what you sow.

I just feel sorry for all the poor schmucks her went out and rewarded her laughable lack of preparation by enriching her through buying her book.

Quote Well, either that or the fact that most media outlets are overwhelmingly full of conservative hating liberals may have something to do with it.


I make fun of her and I'm not a part of a conspiracy full of conservative hating liberals. I just think she's a bit thick. The videos above kinda prove it.

Quote Not that i am saying that liberals themselves hate conservatives, just that those who choose the journalist profession seem to be the ones who let their spiteful hatred shine through for other well meaning conservatives too see! In effect, alienating half the viewership!


I don't know anything about that, because I have not lived in the US and do not see how their media behaves on a day to day basis.

I do get the US news service PBS where I live, and I have found it to be a fair and impartial news source.


Edited by Constantine XI - 19 Nov 2010 at 04:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 05:38
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Fair point. I was never in favour of the guy. I always thought Hillary actually had more in the way of concrete plans on how to fix the mess.


Unfortunately, without causing a ruckus with undue controversial speculation, which i have no interest in doing, i am left at scratching my head as to how we got ourselves into this.

Quote
Be careful, though. There are an awfully large number of blogs and op-ed pieces where the authors are less accountable than any journalist and can never be relied upon to be impartial or fair. The internet contains the very worst information around, but sometimes some quality can be found in there if one is careful.


Thank you for the warning. Considering with what we are stuck with here in the states, it is perhaps unfortunate that researching it yourself is a vast improvement over having it controlled by an organization that comes across as controlling and is no longer ideologically trusted by anyone to present a fair and balanced picture of what is going on in the nation or for that matter, the world.

Quote
A not especially bright person decides she could be given lots of power and sets out to very clumsily convince people smarter than herself they should give her lots of power and money. She doesn't prepare, didn't try hard enough to educate herself on important issues and doesn't develop a vision of how to help society.

When put under critical pressure her lack of intellect and previous work causes her to crash.


Just like President Obama, her lack of experience for national office shows. And just like the mistake i made in underestimating our current President"s chances back in 2008, i wouldn't encourage underestimating her's in 2012! However, resigning her governorship is not exactly reassuring to me, and not to say a sign of a lack of confidence in herself.

Quote
I make fun of her and I'm not a part of a conspiracy full of conservative hating liberals. I just think she's a bit thick. The videos above kinda prove it.


Fair enough.

Quote
I don't know anything about that, because I have not lived in the US and do not see how their media behaves on a day to day basis.


Unfortunately, they come across as unbearably snooty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 13:37
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

I don't get this liberal disgust for Sarah Palin & Company?


Really? For real? Funny how perspectives can amount to so much difference between us.

...and I don't get this conservative admiration of her! It really concerns me.

Now let's have some fun at her cost.

Positives - She looks good, has nice hair, can hunt and fish, make babies, and is as ignorant as a 13 year old drop out.

Negatives - ?


Just because she ain't playing with a full deck doesn't mean we have to adore her for her handicaps. Sure we may feel sorry for her but she is definitely not White House material unless we want to have moose heads adore the walls of the oval office.

Yet...she is the best thing the Republicans can offer and I love it.

ps - I'll go out on a limb here. What do psychologists call people who create their own words and have impaired speech?

What does misunderestimate mean? Does it mean to estimate (two negatives = a positive)? Maybe to estimate something less than a correct underestimation? Does it mean to overestimate? Or, did she procure her English from the Price is Right? - Sarah Palin come on down. Guess what the price of a can of Sunkist tuna costs? - "One dollar". Nope, $1 and 75 cents. Not only did you underestimate the cost but you totally misunderestimated it. Next contestant.



Edited by Seko - 19 Nov 2010 at 14:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 14:19
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Dumb or just naive, whatever it is... she is just kidding herself in thinking the media is going to be fair to her. 


Fair...since when is it important to be fair? We have Liberal and Conservative media. Those are the facts. What is so fair about the Republican backlash against NPR? I mean suggesting an investigation to cut funding because NPR took a stand against discrimination and now a few yahoos want to control our press even more so and punish NPR for having the sense to call religious intolerance for what it is. Do you mean that kind of fairness?

Or do you mean the kind of fairness where FOX news bought rights to have the Fox candidates speak on Fox channels. Of course the Fox candidates can never do no wrong. Never!!! Not on Fox! All the while every liberal gets blasted in contorted and asinine ways. Or MSNBC, where daisies grow out of Democrats rears. Is that what you mean by fair? None of it is fair. I thought you already knew that.


Edited by Seko - 19 Nov 2010 at 14:25
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YOU BETCHA!!!  Big smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 18:04
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

What does misunderestimate mean?
 
It's something that Navy Corpsemen are taught to avoid doing in basic training.
 
-Akolouthos
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 18:32
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


What's unfair about calling a person unfit for large responsibilities for what they are: unprepared, intellectually stunted, vague and lacking in substance.


Sounds like what the media should have done with Obama but didn't.
I'm no Obama supporter buit that any responsibly sensible human being could write that I find amazing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 18:36
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Quote
Sounds like what the media should have done with Obama but didn't.


Fair point. I was never in favour of the guy. I always thought Hillary actually had more in the way of concrete plans on how to fix the mess.
I can't believe you said that either.
 
I'd be happy to have the media criticise Obama for the failure he has been in the White House, but it hasn't been a failure of intelligence (even though I find most of his neocon, Chicago School, policies dumb)
 
Palin is simply an idiot. A puppet sometime maybe, but not someone one woould trust with toasting a slice of bread - without careful watching.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 18:41
Originally posted by Akolouthos Akolouthos wrote:

Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

What does misunderestimate mean?
 
It's something that Navy Corpsemen are taught to avoid doing in basic training.
 
-Akolouthos
 
Place too little value on a girl's capability. It should of course have two esses but since Palin spoke it and didn't write it (for understandable reasons) it's not really her fault it isn't spelt missunderestimate.
 
Basically, no-one values her capabilities as low as they should: she therefore is missunderestimated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 22:39
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

I don't get this liberal disgust for Sarah Palin & Company?


Really? For real? Funny how perspectives can amount to so much difference between us.


I don't see why there should be much difference between us?

Quote
...and I don't get this conservative admiration of her! It really concerns me.


I'm really not quite sure either, then again i really don't watch enough television anymore or click on news links about her when i see her name in a news header.

Quote
Positives - She looks good, has nice hair, can hunt and fish, make babies, and is as ignorant as a 13 year old drop out.


Politics aside, on a few occasion that i have indeed paid attention regarding her and the media, i have heard her name being mentioned in association with that of a librarian and certain male fantasies.

Quote
 Sure we may feel sorry for her but she is definitely not White House material unless we want to have moose heads adore the walls of the oval office.


Like i said, i don't see why our differences should separate us so much. I certainly don't think she should run in 2012 or even 2016 or even 2020; But 2024... who knows, quite a lot will happen in between then, like i don't know... becoming more politically mature, confident and perhaps a college degree or two, instead of being just media savvy?

Quote
Yet...she is the best thing the Republicans can offer and I love it.


No, i don't think she is the best Republicans have to offer, just the prettiest.
 
Quote
What does misunderestimate mean? Does it mean to estimate (two negatives = a positive)? Maybe to estimate something less than a correct underestimation? Does it mean to overestimate? Or, did she procure her English from the Price is Right? - Sarah Palin come on down. Guess what the price of a can of Sunkist tuna costs? - "One dollar". Nope, $1 and 75 cents. Not only did you underestimate the cost but you totally misunderestimated it. Next contestant.


Oh what the hell, why question it? I'll play along. I will rephrase my original question so that it fits more into the spirit of the thread.

"I don't understand why Liberals always, uh - ummm.... misunderestimate... her and constantly, uhhh.. refudiate... her beliefs?" Ummm, yeah!

Better? Big smile


Edited by Panther - 19 Nov 2010 at 22:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Nov 2010 at 23:06
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


What's unfair about calling a person unfit for large responsibilities for what they are: unprepared, intellectually stunted, vague and lacking in substance.


Sounds like what the media should have done with Obama but didn't.
I'm no Obama supporter buit that any responsibly sensible human being could write that I find amazing.


What's so amazing?

The media didn't probe him enough too see if he really was prepared for the Presidency.

The media did not probe much into his policies, giving the US voters a false picture of the man and a vague sense of whom and what they were voting for. I am coming, more often than not, in hearing his name being associated with the worst of George W. Bush's excesses.

As for lacking in substance, the media didn't report or perhaps even pick up on it because of their seemingly apparent lovefest with him, but many are now concluding or dismissing that as just the machine politics he brought with him from Chicago.

Or will you continue to misunderestimate me by constantly refudiating my post? Wink  Sorry couldn't resist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 11:22
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


What's unfair about calling a person unfit for large responsibilities for what they are: unprepared, intellectually stunted, vague and lacking in substance.


Sounds like what the media should have done with Obama but didn't.
I'm no Obama supporter buit that any responsibly sensible human being could write that I find amazing.


What's so amazing?
It imples likening Obama, a wrong-headed (in my view) politician but nonetheless a competent adult capable of intelligent speech, to a numskull.
 
The media did with Obama just what they did with Palin - check whether he could put together a meaningful sentence. Obama passed. Palin failed.
 
The right-wing media threw insults (still do) at Obama and the left-wing throws them at Palin. Doesn't alter the fact that only one has any comprehension of what is going on around them,
Quote
The media didn't probe him enough too see if he really was prepared for the Presidency.
To determine she was not prepared to be a competent mother let alone President didn't need probing. It was immediately obvious. Its comparable to one person who fails high school, and another who graduates from college. Neither is prepared to be a Nobel prize winner, but guess which is more likely to become one?
Quote
The media did not probe much into his policies, giving the US voters a false picture of the man and a vague sense of whom and what they were voting for. I am coming, more often than not, in hearing his name being associated with the worst of George W. Bush's excesses.
That goes to whether he is sincere or not, not his competence: Palin was and is evidently incompetent and the media recorded that fact. Determiining sincerity isn't that easy.
Quote
As for lacking in substance, the media didn't report or perhaps even pick up on it because of their seemingly apparent lovefest with him, but many are now concluding or dismissing that as just the machine politics he brought with him from Chicago.
Again, I don't see how this has anything to do with the issue. Palin is an idiot. Depending on one''s politico-economic views, one might judge Obama right or wrong or misleading or duplicitous or whatever. I fully understand the way he is now rejected by so many Democrat and leftist activists, but I do find it interesting that you shoudl be so vitriolic against someone who, on the record, espouses the very same conservative views you normally do.
 
I'm really surprised that yo don't welcome him as a convert to your side.
Quote
Or will you continue to misunderestimate me by constantly refudiating my post? Wink  Sorry couldn't resist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2010 at 20:43
Are the 15 minutes up? One would think that the "write-in" victory by Senator Lisa  Murkowski in Alaska would have put paid to the supposed impact of Palin as power pundit! There is nothing scary about former governor Palin, the scary--no I would say terrifying--part of all this nonsense is the "serious" tone the MSM takes in discussing this hausfrau from the boonies as a 2012 factor!
 
Now do not be mistaken on just how useful Palin can be at rallying the unsophisticated, but all I can say is that Susan B. Anthony must be "amoldin'n her grave!


Edited by drgonzaga - 20 Nov 2010 at 20:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 01:15
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


The right-wing media threw insults (still do) at Obama and the left-wing throws them at Palin. Doesn't alter the fact that only one has any comprehension of what is going on around them,


I guess i find all  this to be childishly ridiculous. If they are going to set the tone for discussion then they should speak as adults and not like the little school yard bullies they come across as by hurling insults at one another.


Quote
To determine she was not prepared to be a competent mother let alone President didn't need probing. It was immediately obvious. Its comparable to one person who fails high school, and another who graduates from college. Neither is prepared to be a Nobel prize winner, but guess which is more likely to become one?


Neither was she ready for it (Office of the VP) or President Obama in not being prepared for the office, the point is moot now. I was just stating an opinion that seemed obvious to me.


Quote
That goes to whether he is sincere or not, not his competence: Palin was and is evidently incompetent and the media recorded that fact. Determiining sincerity isn't that easy.


Sorry, but i beg to differ. President Obama has been caught in one too many gaffes that the media couldn't cover up it fast enough for me not to have noticed. Like the "57 states" comment or his over reliance on teleprompters everywhere he goes in giving the impression that he greatly lacks sincerity.


Quote
Again, I don't see how this has anything to do with the issue. Palin is an idiot. Depending on one''s politico-economic views, one might judge Obama right or wrong or misleading or duplicitous or whatever. I fully understand the way he is now rejected by so many Democrat and leftist activists, but I do find it interesting that you shoudl be so vitriolic against someone who, on the record, espouses the very same conservative views you normally do.
 


Once he was elected, i did really hope for the best for him and for the obvious reasons, but i was afraid that at the end of the day the junior politician in him would shine through. So far i think this to have been true. But, that does not have to be true of what is left of his first term. In fact, his chance to shine may yet be before him since the mid term elections and perhaps a chance at a second term.

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I'm really surprised that yo don't welcome him as a convert to your side.


You may find this surprising, but i view this "My side versus their side" for the damaging nonsense it all really is. I may oppose Obamacare and his lack of public service experience, but not the entirety of Obama's views and certainly not the man himself. Heck, if MCcain had won the 2008 election and tried to reform health care along the same lines as Obama, then i would have opposed MCcare just as vociferously.


Edited by Panther - 21 Nov 2010 at 01:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 09:01
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

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Sounds like what the media should have done with Obama but didn't.


Fair point. I was never in favour of the guy. I always thought Hillary actually had more in the way of concrete plans on how to fix the mess.
I can't believe you said that either.
 
I'd be happy to have the media criticise Obama for the failure he has been in the White House, but it hasn't been a failure of intelligence (even though I find most of his neocon, Chicago School, policies dumb)
 
Palin is simply an idiot. A puppet sometime maybe, but not someone one woould trust with toasting a slice of bread - without careful watching.



Let me clarify. I think the media should have spent more time soberly assessing the man's credentials and what he had in the way of concrete plans, not lambasting him as an ignoramus (he certainly is not one). He and Palin are worlds apart.

His healthcare bill is a case in point, where he merely had an idea he liked and didn't come to the negotiating table with a detailed plan worked out. It's that sort of thing I would like the media to focus on more.

Instead what we have are people yelling about him being a secret Muslim who isn't an American etc etc. Of course, the people who believe that are themselves morons and they serve to embarrass their compatriots in the eyes of the world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 11:38
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

 
Originally posted by gcle gcle wrote:

That goes to whether he is sincere or not, not his competence: Palin was and is evidently incompetent and the media recorded that fact. Determiining sincerity isn't that easy.


Sorry, but i beg to differ. President Obama has been caught in one too many gaffes that the media couldn't cover up it fast enough for me not to have noticed. Like the "57 states" comment or his over reliance on teleprompters everywhere he goes in giving the impression that he greatly lacks sincerity.
My point was that sincerity isn't the issue here. Palin may be sincere for all I know. The issue was mental competence, not sincerity, or political viewpoint for that matter.
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Again, I don't see how this has anything to do with the issue. Palin is an idiot. Depending on one''s politico-economic views, one might judge Obama right or wrong or misleading or duplicitous or whatever. I fully understand the way he is now rejected by so many Democrat and leftist activists, but I do find it interesting that you shoudl be so vitriolic against someone who, on the record, espouses the very same conservative views you normally do.
 


Once he was elected, i did really hope for the best for him and for the obvious reasons, but i was afraid that at the end of the day the junior politician in him would shine through. So far i think this to have been true. But, that does not have to be true of what is left of his first term. In fact, his chance to shine may yet be before him since the mid term elections and perhaps a chance at a second term.

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I'm really surprised that yo don't welcome him as a convert to your side.


You may find this surprising, but i view this "My side versus their side" for the damaging nonsense it all really is. I may oppose Obamacare and his lack of public service experience, but not the entirety of Obama's views and certainly not the man himself. Heck, if MCcain had won the 2008 election and tried to reform health care along the same lines as Obama, then i would have opposed MCcare just as vociferously.
So  you mean you're in favour of a public option, control over premiums, heavier regulation of the insurance industry and generally introducing a system like in Western Europe, all of which Obama is opposed to and made sure didn't happen? You surprise me but I always welcome converts.
 
Cutting out the slogans and the soundbites, what actually do you object to in what Obama has done? Bolstering the banks, continuing the occupation of Iraq, strengthening the authoritarian power of the Presidency, using torture to extract information, extending tax cuts for the rich...all of these Obama policies were followed by Bush, Jr. Which do you actually object to?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 13:59
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

So  you mean you're in favour of a public option, control over premiums, heavier regulation of the insurance industry and generally introducing a system like in Western Europe, all of which Obama is opposed to and made sure didn't happen? You surprise me but I always welcome converts.
 


Ah, a wry wit. No thanks i'll most definitely pass.

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Cutting out the slogans and the soundbites, what actually do you object to in what Obama has done? Bolstering the banks, continuing the occupation of Iraq, strengthening the authoritarian power of the Presidency, using torture to extract information, extending tax cuts for the rich...all of these Obama policies were followed by Bush, Jr. Which do you actually object to?


You see, other than his campaign promises being just that, promises; Besides health care, i do think you realize why i didn't think he really had much of a plan to start with, other than carrying on the previous administrations policies and even expanding them? As you pointed out, George W Bush was a conservative with a little 'c'. His detractors were easily found on either side, especially overlooked on the right and with vitriol to boot, some of whom viewed him as a complete sell out. Ah well, anyways...

Like his predecessor, what did i still oppose oppose? Too much state intervention. Easily bolstering the banks and yet still failing in not pushing hard enough before the bubble burst on curbing the worst excesses from fannie and freddie. I don't think we really learned from that one, though i would love to be wrong about that? What about the government bailouts? Case in point, "General Motors" newest sarcastic moniker is "Government Motors".

The occupation of Iraq is truly not his fault, and withdrawing any troops from Iraq is completely out of his hands. Even if he wanted to, he can't do it due to treaty obligations as arranged by his predecessor's administration. 

The strengthening and weakening for the authority of the Presidency seems to have been going on for some time. I really don't know to be honest, a nutty theory, but perhaps it ebbs and flows over time? From the Jackson and Lincoln era with a stretch of relatively weak Presidencies from the early 1870's until it picks up again with Teddy Roosevelt's at the start of the twentieth. Being quickly followed by Wilson and then a little over a decade later FDR and Truman's and then takes a slow weakening slide culminating with the Carter administration and rebounding again around the time of Regan's administration. Perhaps we are due for a string of very weak Presidencies in the near future? I really don't know? This is just something that seems to stick out whenever i really think about it. However, to answer your question, no! The office of the Presidency does not scare me as of yet and should not be a main focus of immediate concern for anyone else. But there is always room for that to improve sometime in the future? Like turning the legislature into a rubber stamp and buying off or nixing the judiciary. But never fear, there is our free press. Our ever vigilant watchdogs. Constantly on guard against the worst of government excesse.... oh, never mind that one!

As for torture, it is obvious that i am totally against it. And thought that Obama was naively foolish in proclaiming that he would shut down Guantanamo within his first year. 

And yes, i keep hearing about the tax cuts favoring only the rich. I guess the new definition of rich ought to include the middle class because they were also included in it as well, to the best of my recollection and i do believe (Correct me if i am wrong) that Obama is in favor of keeping the cuts in place for the middle class, but not so for the rich. There should be room for compromise on most everything.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 15:10
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Cutting out the slogans and the soundbites, what actually do you object to in what Obama has done? Bolstering the banks, continuing the occupation of Iraq, strengthening the authoritarian power of the Presidency, using torture to extract information, extending tax cuts for the rich...all of these Obama policies were followed by Bush, Jr. Which do you actually object to?


You see, other than his campaign promises being just that, promises;
If you didn't like what he promised, and he has broken his promises, then you should welcome it, no? If you did like what he promised, and he has broken his promises, then you'd be agreeing with me, and I can see why you would object. But neither makes him stupid.
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Besides health care, i do think you realize why i didn't think he really had much of a plan to start with, other than carrying on the previous administrations policies and even expanding them?
That could well be true. It could also be true he planned to do exactly what he has done, starting with appointing Rahm Emanuel as chief of staff before he even took office. Not having a plan is not the same as being dumb.
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As you pointed out, George W Bush was a conservative with a little 'c'. His detractors were easily found on either side, especially overlooked on the right and with vitriol to boot, some of whom viewed him as a complete sell out. Ah well, anyways...

Like his predecessor, what did i still oppose oppose? Too much state intervention. Easily bolstering the banks and yet still failing in not pushing hard enough before the bubble burst on curbing the worst excesses from fannie and freddie. I don't think we really learned from that one, though i would love to be wrong about that? What about the government bailouts? Case in point, "General Motors" newest sarcastic moniker is "Government Motors".
A rather stupid one. Have you seen the GM IPO price? Not only was it at the maximum of the racnge expected, the government has sold off about half its share of the company at that price already. It has every sign of being a successful relaunch, at least in the short run, which it was never going to be without the forced bankruptcy. The shareholders of course lost a bundle, but then they deserved to.  If you gamble on the stock market and you lose, then you lose. Nothing socialist about that.
 
In fact there's a pretty good chance that GM's relaunch will be as successful as the forced nationalisation and then resale of Fortis Bank here in 2008, which got that group of depositors and employees out of trouble.
[/QUOTE]
The occupation of Iraq is truly not his fault, and withdrawing any troops from Iraq is completely out of his hands. Even if he wanted to, he can't do it due to treaty obligations as arranged by his predecessor's administration. 
[/QUOTE]
Cop-outs.
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The strengthening and weakening for the authority of the Presidency seems to have been going on for some time. I really don't know to be honest, a nutty theory, but perhaps it ebbs and flows over time?
It has done that somewhat, yes. But never before 2000 has it reached the heights it has now. In fact for thewhole history of the US the underlying trend has been of centralising authority at the Federal level and concentrating it in the President's hands.
Quote
From the Jackson and Lincoln era with a stretch of relatively weak Presidencies from the early 1870's until it picks up again with Teddy Roosevelt's at the start of the twentieth. Being quickly followed by Wilson and then a little over a decade later FDR and Truman's and then takes a slow weakening slide culminating with the Carter administration and rebounding again around the time of Regan's administration. Perhaps we are due for a string of very weak Presidencies in the near future? I really don't know? This is just something that seems to stick out whenever i really think about it. However, to answer your question, no! The office of the Presidency does not scare me as of yet and should not be a main focus of immediate concern for anyone else. But there is always room for that to improve sometime in the future? Like turning the legislature into a rubber stamp and buying off or nixing the judiciary. But never fear, there is our free press. Our ever vigilant watchdogs. Constantly on guard against the worst of government excesse.... oh, never mind that one!

As for torture, it is obvious that i am totally against it. And thought that Obama was naively foolish in proclaiming that he would shut down Guantanamo within his first year. 
Deceptive rather. He could shut down Guantanamo at any time. The reasons for not doing so are just a string of shabby excuses.
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And yes, i keep hearing about the tax cuts favoring only the rich.
Bush's tax cuts favoured you more the richer you were. Saving the rich money does nothing to benefit the economy: saving the poor money does, because they go out and spend it, whereas the rich tend to save it.
 
The benefits to anyone not rich were trivial. All the administration has to do to stop them and do something to stimulate demand is to stop the Republicans passing a bill to extend them. Which they can easily do, even in the new Congress. Forty-one senators can do it.
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I guess the new definition of rich ought to include the middle class because they were also included in it as well, to the best of my recollection and i do believe (Correct me if i am wrong) that Obama is in favor of keeping the cuts in place for the middle class, but not so for the rich. There should be room for compromise on most everything.
Obama has said he will let the tax cuts be extended irrespective of wealth or income. You're right there should be compromises here. The US has been undertaxed for decades because of fudamentalist theories and nothing much is going to happen to improve things until the balance has been restored by compromising between the low rates of the last 30 years and the high ones of the prosperous years of the '50s and early '60s.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2010 at 15:45
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:



The media didn't probe him enough too see if he really was prepared for the Presidency.




Well if I remember correct Bush was deemed weak and a complete failure (until 911) but still made president.  I mean he oversaw the whole economic collapse in its entirety and he's off scot-free.


Edited by Zagros - 21 Nov 2010 at 15:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2010 at 01:14
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

If you didn't like what he promised, and he has broken his promises, then you should welcome it, no? If you did like what he promised, and he has broken his promises, then you'd be agreeing with me, and I can see why you would object. But neither makes him stupid.


I see. No, some of the broken promises i tried to point out weren't specifically aimed at beliefs like mine. I'm just saying the democrat base and potential voters weren't, uh... well served by a fawning media which didn't refudiate his political positions and over estimated his capabilities by misunderestimating where he actually stood with the end result being that most people are now underwhelmed by his lack of overwhelming awesomeness! wth...Confused Never mind.

Anyways, i didn't originally see what your point was, but i do now. So yes, i do agree with you, he is not stupid.

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A rather stupid one. Have you seen the GM IPO price? Not only was it at the maximum of the racnge expected, the government has sold off about half its share of the company at that price already. It has every sign of being a successful relaunch, at least in the short run, which it was never going to be without the forced bankruptcy. The shareholders of course lost a bundle, but then they deserved to.  If you gamble on the stock market and you lose, then you lose. Nothing socialist about that.
 


Used too, a company worth it's salt, if it survived a downturn in the economy, would be thoroughly embarrassed and disgraced. No longer publicly trusted if it relied on the government to bail it's chestnuts out of a roaring fire of their own creation. Our auto industries had been in free fall for quite a while now. My father in law is a big car fanatic who only bought American manufactured automobiles prior to the mid 90's. He thinks or thought they sacrificed quality while ignoring consumer opinion, when they kept pumping out SUV's from their plants instead of concentrating on products that were cleaner, economically reasonable and more importantly fuel efficient.

So he is kind of torn on the subject. He wanted to see the automakers pay dearly for their willful irresponsible blindness or unbelievable stupidity, but then hated to think about what that meant to the regular workers at the bottom and what would become of an industry he loved. Sad. Sad. Sad.



Edited by Panther - 22 Nov 2010 at 01:14
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