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Religion and clothes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2011 at 22:50
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

It looks like we have another thread that more properly belongs in the Minefield that as a topic worthy of serious discussion.


Indeed. Another agripop thread created by our friend: Carcha.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 02:31
It is amusing to see Polynesian natives, now wearing bathing suits, tut-tuting at the sight of topless (and/or bottemless) European tourists on the beach, who have now abandoned religion and its mandates. Nothing stays the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 02:53
This is an interesting thread cause their was a cult in japan called the aum cult with around 30000 members and like 5000 live in members. The 30000 figure was as a whole and mainly sent money or subscribed to pamphlets and the like from the group and the live in members wore uniforms. these uniforms were crazy all the same and they were encouraged to wear paper mache likenesses of the cult leaders face with these electronic helmets on to disrupt normal thinking. apparently the mind when exposed to long hours of small electronic disturbances has crazy effects. Like only 2 hours of sleep a night or maybe 1000 calories with no protein.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 02:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81uvbbsJC7M
This shows all the cult members wearing the uniforms and paper mache helmets you don't have to watch much to see it about 1 minute and 30 seconds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 03:26
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

It is amusing to see Polynesian natives, now wearing bathing suits, tut-tuting at the sight of topless (and/or bottemless) European tourists on the beach, who have now abandoned religion and its mandates. Nothing stays the same.


Indeed. European women has gone wild.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 03:28
Actually, the missionaries did the Amazonian tribes a favor by introducing more comfortable garments for the males than penis sheaths! Apparently, our dear Carch does not know that the greatest sense of shame is for a male to display the glans penis (also an act of insult). Apparently, he is under the false impression that it was the missionaries who endowed the Amazonians with a sense of shame over one's private parts. Hardly but then it doesn't fit well with his nonsense over the "health" of nudity and how horrible those Europeans were to present them with a more comfortable means of concealing those tightly wrapped tallywackers!

Edited by drgonzaga - 15 Feb 2011 at 03:29
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 03:55
Remember that infected cloths were a favorite way the typical criminal european mind used to exterminate natives. In the Amazons there were some cases as well.
By the way, why these pretty girls would need cloths? Star




Edited by pinguin - 15 Feb 2011 at 04:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 10:20
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why should they have fewer rights to meddle than you and your friends?  Are you claimiing some sort of superiority over Christians? They should only be second class citizens? Or what?
 
Because these religious fanatics have already done a tremendous damage on other cultures in different parts of the world. It is time that this kind of religious imperialism stops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 10:24
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Actually, the missionaries did the Amazonian tribes a favor by introducing more comfortable garments for the males than penis sheaths!
 
Actually there has been quite a variety of different garments in the Amazon, not only penis sheets. And to introduce clothes that are not suitable for the climatic conditions of the Amazon just for the sake of religious prudishness really is on the verge of insanity and just shows the fanaticism of certain missionaries.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 12:28
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Because these religious fanatics have already done a tremendous damage on other cultures in different parts of the world. It is time that this kind of religious imperialism stops.


Fanatics always do tremendous damage. Not only religious ones. Wink

Down with the Eco-Imperialism.

Why don't you convince your fellow Norwegians that stop hunting our whales, instead?

Preach with the example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 12:30
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Actually there has been quite a variety of different garments in the Amazon, not only penis sheets. And to introduce clothes that are not suitable for the climatic conditions of the Amazon just for the sake of religious prudishness really is on the verge of insanity and just shows the fanaticism of certain missionaries.
 


Actually, Xingu people loves the colors of the brazilian team, as you can see in this picture.




Edited by pinguin - 15 Feb 2011 at 12:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 12:36
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Actually there has been quite a variety of different garments in the Amazon, not only penis sheets. And to introduce clothes that are not suitable for the climatic conditions of the Amazon just for the sake of religious prudishness really is on the verge of insanity and just shows the fanaticism of certain missionaries.
 


Actually, Xingu people loves the colors of the brazilian team, as you can see in this picture.


 
I remeber that we recently saw that picture in another thread. Today there are indeed a lot of mixing of clothe styles in many places. But still some of the old clothings and adornment have managed to survive, especially at ceremonies and special occasions
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 15 Feb 2011 at 12:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 18:29
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

It is amusing to see Polynesian natives, now wearing bathing suits, tut-tuting at the sight of topless (and/or bottemless) European tourists on the beach, who have now abandoned religion and its mandates. Nothing stays the same.


Indeed. European women has gone wild.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2011 at 23:32
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
I remeber that we recently saw that picture in another thread. Today there are indeed a lot of mixing of clothe styles in many places. But still some of the old clothings and adornment have managed to survive, especially at ceremonies and special occasions
 
 


Indeed, ceremonies and traditions should be preserved. But please, we must take this people out of theirs deep poverty!

This is the Xingu people you also must accept:






Some women also want new cloths!



Xingu people wants to learn, read and weat T-shirts, too. Look how many wear glases or have cameras, as well.



They also need housing. in the Xingu, people lives in these conditions!







Edited by pinguin - 16 Feb 2011 at 00:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 00:10
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


Latin Americans should all clear out and leave the place for the llamas and jeopards. No more any Asians to America! Never again!


In South Americas there aren't jeopards! What exist are jaguars in the Amazon and mountain lions all along the Andes.Confused

And sorry, this place was founded by Asians, and those are our deepest roots.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 12:24
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Indeed, ceremonies and traditions should be preserved. This is the Xingu people you also must accept:  
 
Do not be so patronizing, I actually know members of Xingu peoples personally so I do not need your lesson. I am very well aware that they also have varying and changing ways of dressing themselves and also that housing and living conditions can look different along the Xingu river.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

But please, we must take this people out of theirs deep poverty!


They will not be less poor if they are deprived of their land and livelihood. Unfortuantely we can see in many other areas in Latin America that powerty has increased manifold when people have been displaced and lost their land and livelihood.





Edited by Carcharodon - 16 Feb 2011 at 12:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 12:43
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Do not be so patronizing, I actually know members of Xingu peoples personally so I do not need your lesson. I am very well aware that they also have varying and changing ways of dressing themselves and also that housing and living conditions can look different along the Xingu river.


Then, don't contradict yourself.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


They will not be less poor if they are deprived of their land and livelihood. Unfortuantely we can see in many other areas in Latin America that powerty has increased manifold when people have been displaced and lost their land and livelihood.


That can be prevented. In Chile, when the Alto Bio-Bio dam was build in Chile, on Pehuenche lands, after so many protests (and also gringos monkeying around), natives reached agreements with the company on trading for new lands, state support in new business, and extra bonus of about US$ 300.000 for each affected family Confused
Indigenous people must get a deal, true. That's simply a matter of justice. They should be part of the touristic booming that Xingu lake will produce as well. But stopping the dam is not the best alternative at all.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 13:36
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

That can be prevented.
 
We have not seen that yet. The indigenous peoples that so vividly protest against the Belo Monte dam do not see that they have any real guarantees of being really compensated. Also they feel that they have not been properly consulted about if they wanted a dam in the area in the first place. Its typical colonialism, the politicians trying to solve the problems caused by their own inability to handle resources in a sustainable way by invading and stealing other peoples land.
 
Who knows what conflicts this can lead to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 13:39
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
We have not seen that yet. The indigenous peoples that so vividly protest against the Belo Monte dam do not see that they have any real guarantees of being really compensated. Also they feel that they have not been properly consulted about if they wanted a dam in the area in the first place. Its typical colonialism, the politicians trying to solve the problems caused by their own inability to handle resources in a sustainable way by invading and stealing other peoples land.
 
Who knows what conflicts this can lead to?


Do you know the project? You have avoided my question over and over again.

By the way, I know what kind of conflicts these can lead, and that's why I am afraid foreign agitators are going to be guilty of killings of native peoples. As usual, European dreamers can't keep theirs mouth shut.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 13:50
[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Do you know the project? You have avoided my question over and over again.
 
Well, I have started a thread about it. I have seen the project and it indeed have its deficiencies. Thats also (beside that it representing colonialist land grab) why the peoples protest against it, both locals, NGO:s, scientists, jurists, artists (also Brazilian), foreigners and Brazilians alike.

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

By the
By the way, I know what kind of conflicts these can lead, and that's why I am afraid foreign agitators are going to be guilty of killings of native peoples. As usual, European dreamers can't keep theirs mouth shut.
 
The root of conflict is the colonial invasion of native land. So it has been in the Americas for 500 years now. It is really time that native peoples shall be allowed to keep what they still have and not be deprived of more of their land and resources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 13:59
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
The root of conflict is the colonial invasion of native land. So it has been in the Americas for 500 years now. It is really time that native peoples shall be allowed to keep what they still have and not be deprived of more of their land and resources.


The root of many conflicts in the region has been European agitators. Remember the British agitators that push the Criollos agains the Crown during Independence wars. Remember the Nazi agitators that produced the massacre of the Seguro Obrero in Chile. Remember the communist agitators, particularly Soviets, that ended in millions of deaths in the region during the Cold War, and the killing of lots of native people as well.

And now, ecofascists and eco-lunatics, like yourself, are preparing the ground for new killings.

Why don't you just stay in Europe, smoking marihuana in Holland or seen Swedish porn on TV?

Just keep the New World, alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 14:06
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

The root of many conflicts in the region has been European agitators.
 
If invaders had not enchrached on native lands then we would not have this problem. The root of it is invasion, land grab and displacement of indigenous peoples.
 
Actually native peoples started to fight against the invasion of colonial aggressors long before any agitators came from other countries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 14:18
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...
If invaders had not enchrached on native lands then we would not have this problem. The root of it is invasion, land grab and displacement of indigenous peoples.
 
Actually native peoples started to fight against the invasion of colonial aggressors long before any agitators came from other countries.


Brazilians are not invaders of Brazil. The Xingu is Brazilian territory, and in that region, indigenous people living in a tribal lifestyle are a minority! Confused You talk as if the Xingu were an independent state. Nowhere in the Americas indigenous territories are politically independent, and I bet the Sami in Sweden or the Inuits in Greenland aren't soberein states either.

And you keep thinking the Xingu is in the 19th century! You should check the statistics of Altamira, the municipality of the state of Para, where the project will be build.
Altamira has 85.000 people, and the Xingu peoples are 3.000! The whole state of Para has 7 million people, and of them only 0.5 are Amerindians following a tribal lifestyle (35.000 people).

In short, most people affected aren't tribal Amerindians!








Edited by pinguin - 16 Feb 2011 at 14:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 14:34
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Brazilians are not invaders of Brazil.
----
The Xingu is Brazilian territory, and in that region, indigenous people living in a tribal lifestyle are a minority! Confused You talk as if the Xingu were an independent state. Nowhere in the Americas indigenous territories are politically independent, and I bet the Sami in Sweden or the Inuits in Greenland aren't soberein states either.
 
The majority society is actually still expanding into native peoples land, and has done so for a long time. Some of the last regues of indigenous territory are today threatened by shortsighted economic exploitation and alnd robbery. It is time to guarantee the native Americans right to the last portions of land where they can live in a way that they themselves choose. When will the colonial expansion stop? When will the majority society stop to dump their problems with bad resource management and wasteful energy use into the lap of the indigenous peoples? When will the politicians and exploiters stop to let the natives pay for their social and economic problems??


Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

And you keep thinking the Xingu is in the 19th century! You should check the statistics of Altamira, the municipality of the state of Para, where the project will be build.
Altamira has 85.000 people, and the Xingu peoples are 3.000! The whole state of Para has 7 million people, and of them only 0.5 are Amerindians following a tribal lifestyle (35.000 people).

In short, most people affected aren't tribal Amerindians!
 
Actually there are indeed also a lot of other people that think that the dam will destroy their lives and destroy important environmental values.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 14:41
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
The majority society is actually still expanding into native peoples land, and has done so for a long time. Some of the last regues of indigenous territory are today threatened by shortsighted economic exploitation and alnd robbery. It is time to guarantee the native Americans right to the last portions of land where they can live in a way that they themselves choose. When will the colonial expansion stop? When will the majority society stop to dump their problems with bad resource management and wasteful energy use into the lap of the indigenous peoples? When will the politicians and exploiters stop to let the natives pay for their social and economic problems??


When it is going to stop? Never. Actually what you see in other countries of the Americas is the opposite of Brazil. In several places, native lands growth instead of shrinking.
In Brazil, the natives need better organization, but that is only possible to do when natives get empowered with money, education and resources. To do so, they must abandon the tribal lifestyle.

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


 Actually there are indeed also a lot of other people that think that the dam will destroy their lives and destroy important environmental values.


Indigenous tribal peoples are a small minority in Para and also in Altamira. They are going to lose some lands but are going to receive others in return. So, why to worry.

By the way, the same eco-lunatics like yourself are pushing for stopping dam construction in Chilean territory, like Aysen, where there aren't indigenous peoples.

Why don't you say they truth, that you eco-guys work worldwide to prevent the poor countries to get richer? That you guys want Latin America and other regions to be poor forever, so we don't treat yours standard of living?
Be sincere, at last.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 14:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 14:46
Indeed. That was the reality. What Carcha doesn't understand is that TODAY's indigenous people don't live like theirs ancestors in the jungle anymore. They are vaccinated at childhood. They are tough to not kill rival tribes. They are tough to protect theirs lands. They WATCH TV.
Before contact, native peoples really live in a tragic world. That's something Latin Americans know, but this guy from Sweden keeps ignoring.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 14:56
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

You may find the book linked below to be of interest. Among other things, the author challenges the idea of peaceful hunter/gatherer societies living in harmony with each other. He presents evidence that the more prevailant situation was a continuous state of war, with a high rate of casualties.
 
 
http://www.amazon.com/Before-Dawn-Recovering-History-Ancestors/dp/014303832X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1297866997&sr=8-1
 
Actually, many of the precolumbian cultures in the Amazon was agriculturalists, some with a rahter high degree of intensity in their agricultural practises. Others were more small scale often seminomadic, horticulturalists, who ofcourse also used resources like wild animals, wild plants and fish. Then there were some who were mostly hunter and gatherers.
 
Actually it seems that after the contact with Europeans and demographic collapses in the wake of that contact, several peoples left their more permanent settled lifestyle and took up semi nomadic or even nomadic life. Some of the tribes that are considered very primitive seem to be refugees who have changed their life style as an adaptation to changed circumstances.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 14:58
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Actually, many of the precolumbian cultures in the Amazon was agriculturalists, some with a rahter high degree of intensity in their agricultural practises.


Now, you are the expert, eh? LOLLOL

That's true, but not in the Amazon. Most of the peoples from Mexico to the Andes were agriculturalists, but the Amazonians weren't.

 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


Actually it seems that after the contact with Europeans and demographic collapses in the wake of that contact, several peoples left their more permanent settled lifestyle and took up semi nomadic or even nomadic life. Some of the tribes that are considered very primitive seem to be refugees who have changed their life style as an adaptation to changed circumstances.
 


Keep repeating you mantra.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2011 at 14:58
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

[
When it is going to stop? Never. Actually what you see in other countries of the Americas is the opposite of Brazil. In several places, native lands growth instead of shrinking.
In Brazil, the natives need better organization, but that is only possible to do when natives get empowered with money, education and resources. To do so, they must abandon the tribal lifestyle.
 
Most important is that they are to keep their lands, otherwise many of them will totally disappear without having a chance to self determine their lifestyle.

 
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