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Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...Often the divide between those who consider themselves Amerindian and those who do not are more cultural than biological. But of course there are still some groups that are not, or at least very little, mixed, some of them are to be found in the Amazon.
 
Absolutely. The cultural difference is language. In this region, at least, Indigenous are those people that at least speak a native language, that live in the ancestral lands and that are recognized as part of an Amerindian community. Otherwise, they aren't indigenous but common folks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2009 at 23:16
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

It always interesting with words. The word Sambo can mean a lot of things, it can mean a mix between blacks and amerindians (also spelled Zambo and in portuguese called Cafuzo) but it can also mean a black person (at least in English). 
One can also think about the book Little Black Sambo that actually was a narrative about people from India.
 
The word Sambo means a mixture of African and Native American. It is too bad that many words when go into english change completely its meaning. The word Negro for instance just means a person with black skin. It may be an African, an Australian Aborigine or an East Indian. If the skin is dark, would be called Negro, just as a physical description, no more important than calling a person curly, blond or tall.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2009 at 23:36
Some sources claims that the word in its indian context (as in the book Little Black Sambo) could come from Shambhoo or Shambhu, the name for the deity Shiva.

But otherwise the word comes from the Spanish Sambo or Zambo. Some, though, think that it originally can have come from some African language.

And the meanings of words and expressions often change when they enter another language. Also within the same language words often change meaning over time.



Edited by Carcharodon - 31 Dec 2009 at 23:41
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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Ignorance once again ShockedShocked. Mestizos are part Amerindians, Mulattos aren't. Don't confusse Mulattos with Sambos. Sambos are part Amerindian and part Blacks, but Mulattos are as allien to the Americas as an European descendent.
 
And if you believe there is not difference, here what a Cabloco has to say about Blacks (Negros).
 
 
 
Don't play at erudition with me, Pinguin. When I employ a term, I have a historical base upon which to propound. Notice the absence of the double "tt"? Mulato, from the Arabic muwallad, which distinguishes one as not "a genuine Arab", is the correct term for anyone whose claimed ancestry is denied by actual parentage. In the instance of North American history--and with the Shinnicock during the 19th century--Blacks did discover a measure of autonomy by integrating within Amerind society. It was hardly an unusual phenomenon in 18th century Florida. Would you have preferred the more avuncular "half-breeds" seing that the exchange is being conducted in English?
 

mulato, ta.

(De mulo, en el sentido de hibrido, aplicado primero a cualquier mestizo).

1. adj. Dicho de una persona: Que ha nacido de negra y blanco, o al contrario. U. t. c. s.

2. adj. De color moreno.

3. adj. Que es moreno en su linea.



Edited by drgonzaga - 01 Jan 2010 at 20:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2010 at 21:22
Mulatoes aren't Mestizos. Mestizos aren't Mulatoes.
 
You Americans confuse everything.
 
By the way, I give a damn for an erudiction that is not based in the way Latin American think about its own region. OK?
 
So, the definitions comming from Spain aren't worth a penny. Got it?
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 01 Jan 2010 at 21:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2010 at 23:14
What's the matter Pinguin, a tick has gotten under those feathers? Give us an example of a "way Latin Americans think" specially if those thoughts are being expressed in an European language!?!
Enough of this faux regionalism and ridiculous Chilean amour propre.
 
Jose Diez Canseco. Estampas mulatas. Lima, 1931.
 
 
So kindly cease all these pompous diddlings and actually study something for a change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2010 at 16:43


[QUOTE= Americans confuse everything.



What is this thing with you against Americans almost every other time you write you have something to say about "Americans." Its been obvious since I joined that you are anti-American but not everyone wants to hear your slander its really getting old Penguin and you need to lay off.


Edited by SPQR - 03 Jan 2010 at 16:43
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Originally posted by SPQR SPQR wrote:


What is this thing with you against Americans almost every other time you write you have something to say about "Americans." Its been obvious since I joined that you are anti-American but not everyone wants to hear your slander its really getting old Penguin and you need to lay off.
 
So, do you mean that only members of the pro-American party have the right to express its oppinion here?
 
Obviously, you don't like to hear anything but good things about your country. I am not interested in interfiere in yours internal affairs, but don't ask me to be quite and pro-"American" in international affairs. Come on, the rest of the world is not made of U.S. citizen, and we don't have the power to chose what American will plot the next attack uppon us.. Angry
 
I just will tell you one thing. Your country is the most powerful of the world, and govern the planet not because it is a democracy, but with the barrel of the gun... never heared about the gunboat policy of the naughy Teddy Rossvelt. Confused You have a virtual worldwide dictatorship in place. And you ask the rest be "pro-American". Give me a break.
 
Yes, your country may be democratic back home, but abroad it is worst than any dictatorship, because it has the power to do what it wishes. Never heared about the orange agent? Never heared that U.S. military have immunity to commit crimes abroad in "friendly" countries? Have you seen the list of the U.S. interventions abroad? From Chiquita to the hunging of Sadam?
 
I bet you haven't.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 04 Jan 2010 at 00:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2010 at 00:45
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

What's the matter Pinguin, a tick has gotten under those feathers? Give us an example of a "way Latin Americans think" specially if those thoughts are being expressed in an European language!?!
Enough of this faux regionalism and ridiculous Chilean amour propre.
 ...
 
What Latin Americans think? Haven't you figure it out already? Only a mad man like Chavez was couragious enough to say it loud and clear..
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2010 at 05:10
An appeal to "el presidente"...you've outdone yourself in the realm of spurious authority.  But, I am close to concluding that even he makes more sense than a certain avian!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2010 at 15:23
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

An appeal to "el presidente"...you've outdone yourself in the realm of spurious authority.  But, I am close to concluding that even he makes more sense than a certain avian!


Well, the only way to answer you crazy question is to make a scientific poll on a significant sample of Latin Americans. The only thing I did is to express my personal guessings, based on how much I observe here.
But I can tell you from the beginning that, no matter they aren't consider our enemies at all, Americans aren't considered our "amigos" either.

This is the pop image of the U.S. that still exist here.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2010 at 20:19
Unfortunately, Pinguin, that cartoon is part of the political theatre of the United States and has no ties to Latin America! It was part of American politics and its distaste for "foreign adventures". It's appearance is little more than domestic objection to the "Roosevelt Corollary".  Here's another example (sans Roosevelt) but in advocacy:
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2010 at 20:25

 

So, do you mean that only members of the pro-American party have the right to express its oppinion here?

 

Obviously, you don't like to hear anything but good things about your country. I am not interested in interfiere in yours internal affairs, but don't ask me to be quite and pro-"American" in international affairs. Come on, the rest of the world is not made of U.S. citizen, and we don't have the power to chose what American will plot the next attack uppon us.. Angry

 

I just will tell you one thing. Your country is the most powerful of the world, and govern the planet not because it is a democracy, but with the barrel of the gun... never heared about the gunboat policy of the naughy Teddy Rossvelt. Confused You have a virtual worldwide dictatorship in place. And you ask the rest be "pro-American". Give me a break.

 

Yes, your country may be democratic back home, but abroad it is worst than any dictatorship, because it has the power to do what it wishes. Never heared about the orange agent? Never heared that U.S. military have immunity to commit crimes abroad in "friendly" countries? Have you seen the list of the U.S. interventions abroad? From Chiquita to the hunging of Sadam?

 

I bet you haven't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
[/QUOTE]

Where did I ever say Pro-American? you need to read things before you make yourself look more like an idiot than you already are.

try reading what people post instead of trying to turn it around and put words in what I say, or at least try to comprehend and listen so we can have a civilized discussion.

Also playing the victim card is getting very old

I don't care if someone wants to say bad things about the U.S. There are many things I don't even like about how the country is run internally as well as externally. I'm talking about YOU Penguinno-one else talks as much crap as you do about everywhere and anything else except your perfect little country. Your insane views that twist everything about history and world affairs

Everyone in this forum knows you are anti-American and European but you have nothing to say about your country, like its a perfect place. If you believe this then you are obviously living in La-La Land! Get real or GTFO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2010 at 20:59
Penguin = You Americans confuse everything.

Everything I posted above is against what you said earlier I am not defending America the country hell no what I was applying it to was AMERICANS (people not the nation as a whole) like me Kevin, Barbarossa, Panther, other Americans on this forum as well as all Americans.

All what you have posted here and in the past is Nationalistic banter! which is sad ( and a worldwide problem) coming from a member of a forum where. I thought everyone in here had a sound head attached to their shoulders with a clear conscience and freedom of though and not a bunch of Nationalist childish rabble.

Edited by SPQR - 04 Jan 2010 at 21:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2010 at 15:14

SPQR... I don't speak in English with Romans as yourself, and less will answer histerical posts in that language ... well, how is your Latin?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2010 at 17:18
Why does it matter if I speak Latin???? That's not even what we are talking about; this really isn't worth my time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2010 at 23:31
Well, I better confusse you that answer your offensive post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SPQR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 2010 at 18:13
??? what are you talking about? Offensive I'm taking offense because your post about Americans confusing everything was offensive, try to comprehend please.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2010 at 15:10
The Brazilian government are stepping up the conflict by granting an environmental license for the construction of the Belo Monte dam:

Quote The dam, planned for the Xingu River in the northern state of Para, will be the third largest in the world and is estimated to cost 17 billion dollars.

It will flood 500 square kilometers of land, causing huge devastation to the rainforest, and have a major impact on fish stocks.

The livelihoods of thousands of tribal people who depend on the forest and river for food and water will be destroyed. Some face removal from their ancestral land.

http://www.survivalinternational.org/news/5510



Edited by Carcharodon - 05 Feb 2010 at 15:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 2010 at 16:37
As usual, hyperbole and downright lying become the hallmark of SI's propaganda. Here is a more balanced presentation even with a pro-activist tint:
 
 
 
 
As for the blurb notice the misinformation:
 
Claim: "causing huge devastation to the rainforest"
Fact: The area lies in the alluvial plain of the Xingu (no rainforest), which floods and dries naturally during the climate cycle.
 
Claim: it will "flood" 500 sq. km. of land.
Fact: The construction of the reservoir is essential so as to control the drastic variations in water flow typical of the Amazonian riverine environment. As to the actual area, well the estimates vary depending upon just how militant the advocacy crowd wants to get.
 
Claim: major impact on fish stocks
Fact: The natural flow of the Xingu already has a major impact on fish stock as a consequence of drastic differences in seasonal volume. If anything, the reservoir would promote a stable water environment for fish. As anyone who has visited the Amazon region during the "dry" periods would note the rank smell of rotting fish is a major characteristic.
 
Claim: "some face removal from their ancestral land".
Fact: The reservoir does not abut nor flood any FUNAI reserve or park.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010 at 15:18
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Claim: "causing huge devastation to the rainforest"
Fact: The area lies in the alluvial plain of the Xingu (no rainforest), which floods and dries naturally during the climate cycle.  
 
The area is actually a mozaic of different ecological zones transitional between the equatorial Amazon lowland forest and the tropical central Brazilian forest. And the flooding and drying up is a part of natural, seasonal changes that the environment are well adapted to. Permanent flooding as in reservoirs will have serious negative changes for the environment.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

  Claim: it will "flood" 500 sq. km. of land.
Fact: The construction of the reservoir is essential so as to control the drastic variations in water flow typical of the Amazonian riverine environment. As to the actual area, well the estimates vary depending upon just how militant the advocacy crowd wants to get.  
 
These variations have been going on for millennia and the environment, plants and animals are adapted to these changes. Also traditional modes of subsistence are adapted to the variations of the surrounding nature.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 Claim: major impact on fish stocks
Fact: The natural flow of the Xingu already has a major impact on fish stock as a consequence of drastic differences in seasonal volume. If anything, the reservoir would promote a stable water environment for fish. As anyone who has visited the Amazon region during the "dry" periods would note the rank smell of rotting fish is a major characteristic. 
 
As with other animals, many fishes are well adapted to variations in water levels. Some species are even dependant on these variations for spawning.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 Claim: "some face removal from their ancestral land".
Fact: The reservoir does not abut nor flood any FUNAI reserve or park.
 
 
The dam will affect the subsistence of the indigenous peoples in the area in many ways.
 
The Belo monte dam is just the first in a series of reservoirs that, if they are built, will for sure do a lot of impact on native land.
 
On top of that there will most probably be several others, mostly unforseen, negative consequenses of the dam, something that the history of mega dams in other parts of the world has already showed.
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 10 Feb 2010 at 16:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010 at 18:44
Why is this thread not called "Condemn Xingu peoples to perpetual deprivation!"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2010 at 20:04
Stop being both facile and facetious Carch. You have all the species "adapting" to climatic foibles and then foist as a given that the human can not do so to a coming change because it presupposes a more controlled environment!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2010 at 11:01
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why is this thread not called "Condemn Xingu peoples to perpetual deprivation!"?


So if these peoples will be able to keep their own land without having it destroyd by dams, pollution, deforestation and other kinds of destruction then they are condemned to eternal deprivation? Such a statement is really an echo of the usual old colonial ways of rationalizing the stealing of others land.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Stop being both facile and facetious Carch. You have all the species "adapting" to climatic foibles and then foist as a given that the human can not do so to a coming change because it presupposes a more controlled environment!


Well, to destroy an environment is not to controll it, it actually means that you loose control over it and the consequences of the destruction.

One can notice that the intrusion on, and destruction of, the Xingu peoples environment is just a part of an ongoing colonial process of land stealing, exploitation of natural resources and the displacement of indigenous people.

If one study images of the area around for example the Xingu Indigenous park one can see that it lies as kind of island refuge surrounded by a more and more degraded environment. One can hope the indigenous peoples will survive the onslaught of the so called developers that greedily reaches for their land.

Here a couple of pictures that show the encroachment of modern agriculture, exploitation of resources and so called development. As more and more land nearby comes under cultivation, the integrity of the park is increasingly threatened. This surrounding destruction already causes pollution that threatens the water in the river. And if the river will be destroyed by dams then the situation for the indigenous peoples will be further aggravated:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/3000/3693/landsat_xingunp.jpg

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2010 at 16:32
Isn't it a marvel what poor focus can do to a presentation?
 
GPS mapped earthworks over Landsat  by PRIs The World. Y.E.onDOMReady(show_notes_initially);
 
The premise of those pristine aborigenes in harmony with Nature is so much poppycock:
 
For centuries Amazonia has held the Western scientific and popular imagination as a primordial forest, only minimally impacted by small, simple and dispersed groups that inhabit the region. Studies in historical ecology refute this view. Rather than pristine tropical forest, some areas are better viewed as constructed or "domesticated" landscapes, dramatically altered by indigenous groups in the past.
 
The Legacy of Cultural Landscapes in the Brazilian Amazon...


Edited by drgonzaga - 12 Feb 2010 at 16:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2010 at 20:53
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Isn't it a marvel what poor focus can do to a presentation?
 ---- 
The premise of those pristine aborigenes in harmony with Nature is so much poppycock:
 
For centuries Amazonia has held the Western scientific and popular imagination as a primordial forest, only minimally impacted by small, simple and dispersed groups that inhabit the region. Studies in historical ecology refute this view. Rather than pristine tropical forest, some areas are better viewed as constructed or "domesticated" landscapes, dramatically altered by indigenous groups in the past.
 
The Legacy of Cultural Landscapes in the Brazilian Amazon...


Well, the notions of urban or semi urban settlements, advanced agricultural management, aquaculture, Terra preta soils as signs of relatively high population density and advanced methods of soil enrichment are rather well known and we have, if you remember, discussed it in the thread Precolumbian Amazon: towns, gardens, aquaculture, where you sounded rather sceptic to the whole notion.

But one shall not confuse the relatively gentle and non destructive methods of agriculture and management from Precolumbian times with todays heavy deforestation, industrial scale agriculture, exploitation of natural resources and pollution.

 

Precolumbian Amazon: towns, gardens, aquaculture

http://www.allempires.net/forum/precolumbian-amazon-towns-gardens-aquaculture_topic124264.htmlwhere





Edited by Carcharodon - 12 Feb 2010 at 22:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 02:17
If you do recall the earlier thread where you were up to your standards (so to speak), my position was a simple one: your precious aborigenes do impact the environment negatively, while you as to be expected, were in some Fantasyland edenic mode experiencing rapture. By now you must be exhausted from all these hoists on your own petards, Carch. Want to bet that in another 50 years, it will be the Cayapo making noise over the individual division of their tribal lands now under FUNAI patronage?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 09:50
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

If you do recall the earlier thread where you were up to your standards (so to speak), my position was a simple one: your precious aborigenes do impact the environment negatively, while you as to be expected, were in some Fantasyland edenic mode experiencing rapture. By now you must be exhausted from all these hoists on your own petards, Carch. Want to bet that in another 50 years, it will be the Cayapo making noise over the individual division of their tribal lands now under FUNAI patronage?

All peoples impact their environment in some way. The difference is how and on what scale. The scale of deforestation and destruction of land in the Amazon of today, caused by the mainstream society, is of course much larger and have a lot more negative impact than the doings of any precolombian or later indigenous society. The scale of deforestation and destruction of today is unprecedented.

And the building of the mega dams will further worsen the situation.





Edited by Carcharodon - 13 Feb 2010 at 09:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 10:29
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Why is this thread not called "Condemn Xingu peoples to perpetual deprivation!"?


So if these peoples will be able to keep their own land without having it destroyd by dams, pollution, deforestation and other kinds of destruction then they are condemned to eternal deprivation? Such a statement is really an echo of the usual old colonial ways of rationalizing the stealing of others land.
 
A major part of your problem is your inability to see, metaphorically, the trees for the wood. A 'people' is a collection of individuals, each with their own right to advancement and self-expression and all the other Maslowian goals.
 
But all you see is the wood: the 'people' with its structure and its customs - essentially an artificial construct designed and inrtended to serve its individual members, the trees.
 
You want to preserve the wood in aspic. But in so doing you condemn the trees to deprivation.
 
But it is the trees that are important, not the wood.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 10:43
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
A major part of your problem is your inability to see, metaphorically, the trees for the wood. A 'people' is a collection of individuals, each with their own right to advancement and self-expression and all the other Maslowian goals.
 
But all you see is the wood: the 'people' with its structure and its customs - essentially an artificial construct designed and inrtended to serve its individual members, the trees.
 
You want to preserve the wood in aspic. But in so doing you condemn the trees to deprivation.
 
But it is the trees that are important, not the wood.


Well, one can hardly say that the best way to fulfil the needs and rights of the individuals among the Xingu peoples is to destroy their land, destroy their base of subsistence, take away their opportunities to support themselves and in the end displace them totally and force them into the lowest ranks of the mainstream society (which has mostly been the result of other displacements in the Amazon region, and in many other places too). The individuals will for sure not benefit from environmental degradation and pollution (which will threaten their health) or enchroachment and intrusion from outsiders.

Otherwise one could maybe say that the individuals of Luxembourg would gain a lot in their right to advancement and self expression if they were invaded by some foreign state, their environment were destroyed, their property was stolen and they had to leave as refugees.



Edited by Carcharodon - 13 Feb 2010 at 10:44
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