| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Scientific Revolution
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Scientific Revolution

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2017 at 02:47
I thought that was a problem for cannibalism, I would think that bodies got mutilated in warfare.  Dissection was a problem in antiquity for different reasons.
I think you have to understand what is there before you can project something new.  How could new possibilities have organically grown out of what is there, even though they didn't (or did they?).

Nietzsche talks about the eternal recurrence of the same.  As a thought experiment, imagine your life with all its good, and especially all it bad.  Now imagine that you will go through all this eternally, over and over and over.  The same old embarrassments, and pains, over and over and over.  You are condemned to repeat it until finally you accept it, and accept that you have done this countless times before.  When you accept it all, a new possibility opens up, and change can occur.  (and then you repeat the cycle over again).

So you can wage war on Catholicism if you want, but I see it as trapped in the old patterns, raging against what was in the past.  My question is, do you want to talk about change, or do you actually want to do it?

Orthodox Christianity did contemplative prayer, Western Catholicism developed technology (clock, printing press, plow, waterwheel) that eventually feed into the scientific revolution.  If the West had continued on in the same pathway of the East, they could not have done that, or at least, it is clear that the East did not do that, even though they were culturally more sophisticated than the West in many ways.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4997
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2017 at 05:27
Franciscosan

Sorry old mate, but you've lost me again. I'm not making arguments with philosophers, theorists.

What I'm saying is that, basically, has the Church not suppressed certain of the sciences as heresy, medicine, for example may well have advanced and lives could have been saved.

I know, supposition, but, reasonable I think.

Just think about the advances in sciences and medicine in particular since the beginning of the 20th Century. Who could have ever predicted it?

Perhaps you've misunderstood the thread?


It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2017 at 23:14
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I thought that was a problem for cannibalism, I would think that bodies got mutilated in warfare.  Dissection was a problem in antiquity for different reasons.
I think you have to understand what is there before you can project something new.  How could new possibilities have organically grown out of what is there, even though they didn't (or did they?).
The Egyptians knew all about anatomy, the knowledge was there and then suppressed. Very sad (hands wringing).

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Nietzsche talks about the eternal recurrence of the same.
Nietzsche was talking about reincarnation wasn't he? Just curious, why are you throwing Nietzsche around? He would have agreed with the heretics not the Catholics. I would have gone with Chesterton if I were arguing your point.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 As a thought experiment, imagine your life with all its good, and especially all it bad.  Now imagine that you will go through all this eternally, over and over and over.  The same old embarrassments, and pains, over and over and over.  You are condemned to repeat it until finally you accept it, and accept that you have done this countless times before.  When you accept it all, a new possibility opens up, and change can occur.  (and then you repeat the cycle over again).
M brane theory, done it. 

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So you can wage war on Catholicism if you want, but I see it as trapped in the old patterns, raging against what was in the past.  My question is, do you want to talk about change, or do you actually want to do it?
 
No I don't want to talk about change, I want to talk about the subject of this thread -For the Future!Wink
You are taking this personally. No one made you type. The Thread would have disappeared had you not dragged it up from the depths of forgotten things. Only to, what call me a Catholic basher? You were never engaged in the spirit of the Thread which was to imagine a different Dark Age when people who were highly spiritual were condemned by the Church. 

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Orthodox Christianity did contemplative prayer, Western Catholicism developed technology (clock, printing press, plow, waterwheel) that eventually feed into the scientific revolution.  If the West had continued on in the same pathway of the East, they could not have done that, or at least, it is clear that the East did not do that, even though they were culturally more sophisticated than the West in many ways.
The people who invented those very useful things were common working people not Fish -footed bishops. Agree the Eastern people were sophisticated especially spiritually and not sexually repressed. Thanks for your participation, here is your fake trophy "Lamp "
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 00:21
So, if you think we are off topic, where should we be?
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4997
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 03:15
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

So, if you think we are off topic, where should we be?

How about the last two hundred years, for example.

Human kind has witnessed the most breath taking advances in the sciences, beyond even the wildest imagination.

Who would have imagined 200 yrs ago that a man would have travelled to and walked on the moon. That people would communicate over very large distances by a small hand held device-to which they would become addicted. That mass communication and entertainment would become a visual reality-in real time.

In medicine transplantation of human organs would become an every day event, humans would be fitted, both internally and externally, with mechanical devices to enhance their mobility and health.

How about the fact that military forces would be able to bombard targets thousands of miles away, with pinpoint (well almost, and usually) accuracy. That unmanned devices would deliver ordnance to moving targets far distant from the operator, that earth orbiting satellites would deliver all sorts of intelligence data as well as communications capability both to the military and to the public.

I think that could be a start-do you want to add to that?


Edited by toyomotor - 04 May 2017 at 03:15
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 18:27
What do you mean by "advances in the sciences?"  I tend to think that there is a modern stunting of the imagination.  But, that is just my sunny optimism, seeing a cloud for every silver lining.Wink


Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4997
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2017 at 01:38
franciscosan
Now I think you're spamming!

The term is obvious and examples given are only a few of the thousands which have taken place over the past two hundred years.

And yes, you do seem to take a cloud for every silver lining, imo. It often seems that you set out to pick and argument when all that it asked is discussion or debate.

Of course, if you disagree that there have been miraculous advances in sciences, by all means debate the statement. If you don't understand that "advances in science" means, Google it!

It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2017 at 17:56
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

What do you mean by "advances in the sciences?"  I tend to think that there is a modern stunting of the imagination.  But, that is just my sunny optimism, seeing a cloud for every silver lining.Wink



He means knowing the difference between the liver and the kidney much like stone age man did, take off your stained _glass_glasses. It's like having a conversation with someone who denies the moon landing.
So confident in your beliefs that you have to destroy any discussion of the old Church. You simply piss yourself over the  tremendous evil perpetrated by Christians. 
You talk about moving on but no one is having a conversation with you on any subject that threatens your white knuckled, clutching beliefs. Geek
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2017 at 19:50
The moon hasn't landed!  If it landed, it would destroy the entire Earth!

Science "advances," but I am not sure humanity has, if people kill themselves because all the magic (or color) has been bleached out of the world by science saying everything is determined.  Or how about those who don't kill themselves, but kill others in some nihilistic sham of religion.  Or how about those that embrace some self-destructive hedonistic over-the-top practice of drugs or sex, or whatever.

I believe in science, but I believe that science has its place.  I don't worship it, and I don't believe that it is the end all and be all of everything.  Science can teach you a lot about how to live, it is not very good at teaching what one should live for.  And no, I am not particularly thinking about God, or the Church.  I think that one can also find meaning elsewhere.  
I do believe in free will, and I tend to believe that free will is necessary for moral responsibility.  Or maybe there is no free will, but in that case I will say that I am determined to believe in free will, and I will continue to believe that criminals made moral choices, and could have done otherwise.  Some people believe that if criminals have no moral choice, then we should take it easy on them.  They don't understand that if criminals have no moral choice, then we might not be able to choose mercy for them either.  Believing everything is determined makes the world uglier, not more beautiful.  Science can be beautiful, but only if one isn't choosing it as a new idol to worship.  At least the Abrahamic religions understand that people misguidedly like to set up idols to worship, I am not sure the scientism that is popular amongst some "enlightened" people today, understands that.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2017 at 21:03
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

The moon hasn't landed!  If it landed, it would destroy the entire Earth!

Science "advances," but I am not sure humanity has, if people kill themselves because all the magic (or color) has been bleached out of the world by science saying everything is determined.  Or how about those who don't kill themselves, but kill others in some nihilistic sham of religion.  Or how about those that embrace some self-destructive hedonistic over-the-top practice of drugs or sex, or whatever.
How about brilliant men like Alan Turing who were chemically castrated because they admitted to homosexual acts? Turing was persecuted in the 1950's because of the remnants of the Dark Age prohibition. Of course Popes and priests had homosexual relationships and lets not forget, little boys attracted more men to the service of "Christ"than Jesus has.  So humanity in the Church? You have convinced me that the humanity of the world religions has not, ironically advanced. It is the source of most of the world's suffering.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I believe in science, but I believe that science has its place.  I don't worship it, and I don't believe that it is the end all and be all of everything.  Science can teach you a lot about how to live, it is not very good at teaching what one should live for.  And no, I am not particularly thinking about God, or the Church.  I think that one can also find meaning elsewhere.  

Righto- the Church never had any business controlling matters other than spiritual but because we are talking about Overlords, not Father Dowling, the Church of Rome ruled all aspects of life. It's documented in the writings of the Papacy. The eveil contiues as in this century perverts are given access to helpless children. Helpless being the operative word, since the church saw rape of a child as a lesser sin than masturbation, which meant Millennialarianism and hell fire for eternity for Abusing the Wicked Stick.  Thank you Pope Innocent, haha. And thanks for destroying the beauty and wisdom of ascent and the understanding of the body as a means to achieve greater states of understand. Einstein used the thought experiment, an altered state and so did Crick, Tesla, Planck, Shrodinger and let's not forget Galileo's balls. 

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I do believe in free will, and I tend to believe that free will is necessary for moral responsibility.  Or maybe there is no free will, but in that case I will say that I am determined to believe in free will, and I will continue to believe that criminals made moral choices, and could have done otherwise.  Some people believe that if criminals have no moral choice, then we should take it easy on them.  They don't understand that if criminals have no moral choice, then we might not be able to choose mercy for them either.  Believing everything is determined makes the world uglier, not more beautiful.  Science can be beautiful, but only if one isn't choosing it as a new idol to worship.  At least the Abrahamic religions understand that people misguidedly like to set up idols to worship, I am not sure the scientism that is popular amongst some "enlightened" people today, understands that.

This last bit has nothing to do with the discussion. Your belief or not , in Science is not our subject. Your flaccid condemnation of Science is as convincing as the moon landing deniers.

The Church of the 11th century despised the Cathars because they has radical views about sex. Among other things they said that sex without procreation was fine, homosexual sex was none of YOUR business. Cathars also studied the Natural Word and attempted understanding of natural processes.

The Christians who lived among the Cathars called them the "Good Men" because they lived by a code much like the Pythagorean's and many chose to die with them rather than suffer the maniacal Church. Indeed the Church documents exist detailing the Pope pissing himself over the popularity of the Cathars. Ultimately wiped them out to force all of France to submit to the Papacy. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4997
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2017 at 02:33
Vanuatu

I agree with what you've written. I grow tired of hearing and reading peoples extolling of the virtues of Holy Mother Church, in whatever robes she is wearing. Christianity has been the source of much pain and suffering over the millenia, and has caused pain and suffering to continue by, imho, stifling the progress of science because it did not fit some religeous dickheads view of the world.

I believe that a scientific rervolution has taken place, and that religeon has been relegated to it's rightful place. We now have priests who are scientists themselves.
 E Nomini Patri


Edited by toyomotor - 31 May 2017 at 02:14
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2017 at 03:07
Es Spirito Sancti.

Some of us grew up in the church and they did, in the 1970's and later condemn science. They illustrated these "Truths" through children who claimed visionary experiences in Fatima Portugal and Garabandal, Spain.
Those ideas were drilled into us children and nuns were easily stumped by questions like "If Henry Ford used the scientific method to build cars, shouldn't we stop using them?" Evil Smile Since science is evil?
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2017 at 04:07
I am not a catholic, but I think that if you want to condemn Catholicism, you got to condemn the whole thing, no Notre Dame, Sistine Chapel, Lindesfarne Gospels, Book of Kells, Mozart, Johan Sebastian Bach, Aquinas, Augustine (two of your favorite guys, Vanuatu), Francis of Assisi, etc, etc.  Can't just take the good and reject the bad, and you also shouldn't take the bad and reject the good either.

Science is a method, modern science is the interrogation of nature, for the purpose of discovery, and those discoveries are used in technology.  People are enchanted by the novelty of cell phones, but it also means that people pay attention more to their cell phone than driving, life is a little more impersonal, people don't "live" where they are, and people are increasingly shallow.  There may be benefits (I don't really know since I don't have a cell phone), but in the enthusiasm (a religious word) of being 'plugged in' any down side is ignored, until it finally it disappears.  Of course, we can deny there is any downside, but the buffoon yelling on his phone in the restaurant proves us wrong.
The interrogation of nature places things in unusual, abnormal circumstances to see how they react.  It could be as mild as putting salt in water to watch it dissolve until saturation point, or it could be putting concentration camp victims in freezing water to see how quickly they die.  Science doesn't care which, and so hopefully people do care and will care.  Right now, however, we are putting the entire world in unusual conditions, and climate and more particularly animals and plants are feeling the stress and increasingly going extinct.  Now science and technology is creating this scenario, and it will take science and technology to get us out.  But blindly bowing down to the great god of science will not get us out of this alteration of our world, which is becoming increasingly more drastic for other lifeforms that can't alter their world, via science and technology, like we can.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2017 at 14:34
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I am not a catholic, but I think that if you want to condemn Catholicism, you got to condemn the whole thing, no Notre Dame, Sistine Chapel, Lindesfarne Gospels, Book of Kells, Mozart, Johan Sebastian Bach, Aquinas, Augustine (two of your favorite guys, Vanuatu), Francis of Assisi, etc, etc.  Can't just take the good and reject the bad, and you also shouldn't take the bad and reject the good either.

Good grief fransicosan, of course you can appreciate the good and reject the bad. Please provide some supporting evidence of your POV.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Science is a method, modern science is the interrogation of nature, for the purpose of discovery, and those discoveries are used in technology.  People are enchanted by the novelty of cell phones, but it also means that people pay attention more to their cell phone than driving, life is a little more impersonal, people don't "live" where they are, and people are increasingly shallow.  There may be benefits (I don't really know since I don't have a cell phone), but in the enthusiasm (a religious word) of being 'plugged in' any down side is ignored, until it finally it disappears.  Of course, we can deny there is any downside, but the buffoon yelling on his phone in the restaurant proves us wrong.
The interrogation of nature places things in unusual, abnormal circumstances to see how they react.  It could be as mild as putting salt in water to watch it dissolve until saturation point, or it could be putting concentration camp victims in freezing water to see how quickly they die.  Science doesn't care which, and so hopefully people do care and will care.  Right now, however, we are putting the entire world in unusual conditions, and climate and more particularly animals and plants are feeling the stress and increasingly going extinct.  Now science and technology is creating this scenario, and it will take science and technology to get us out.  But blindly bowing down to the great god of science will not get us out of this alteration of our world, which is becoming increasingly more drastic for other lifeforms that can't alter their world, via science and technology, like we can.

What does this have to do with the Papacy controlling the sex lives of individuals? Are you saying that the Pope I. IV was just so ahead of his time that he saw the evil of cell phones in advance and was just trying to protect the flock? 

Science doesn't act on its own it's a tool. Do you make a distinction between the development of Sarin gas and Dialysis ?

No one is advocating the worship of science and you know that. I thought you had some imagination. I didn't mind debating Bacon's motives and I notice you were not really making a point, just trying to show me how much I don't know. Right, I'm not an academic, I understand my limits but you seem to argue just to show off and cloud the discussion.

Are you saying that the sexual repression of human beings was a good thing? I will ask you to be direct in your response but I'm not holding my breath.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2017 at 19:53
Ummmm, is this a thread on the scientific revolution?  I am talking about science and religion, religion being out of what modern science came from (whether that is a good thing or not).  I don't know why you are hung up on sex and the pope?

But to answer your question, I don't think it is necessary to be active sexually in order to be human.  Animals go into heat, and don't really have a choice about it, people have a choice.  That is not to deny there are pressures to have sex (and pressures not to have sex), which can pull us back and forth on the issue.  Some of those pressures are psychological, some are sociological, I don't think that means they are bad.  You talk as if "repression" was a bad thing, but it is a Freudian term, and it shows that you have already bought into a Freudian psychology of everything being sexual. You probably have bought into it, without ever having read it (not that I have either).  The difference between us is not that I'm an academic and you're not, the difference is that Freudian psychology explains some things, but at some point becomes psychobabble.  Do you realize that???  So ask yourself, a young girl wants "give herself" to her boyfriend, her parents want to stop her from doing so, are they repressing her? or do they just think he is a good for nothing that wants to get into her pants?  Or could it be a little bit of A, and a little bit of B?  Sex is very powerful, and to think that it is nobody's business but the immediate "involved" parties, is incorrect.  It involves the individual, the family, the tribe, the church, the nation, whether people want it to or not.
So I don't know why you are getting upset about the pope and sex in a thread on the scientific revolution, but then I guess everything is related to everything else in the end....
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2017 at 23:10
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Ummmm, is this a thread on the scientific revolution?
Did you read the opening post, ever? Talk about herding cats!

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 I am talking about science and religion, religion being out of what modern science came from (whether that is a good thing or not).  I don't know why you are hung up on sex and the pope?
Apparently not.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

But to answer your question, I don't think it is necessary to be active sexually in order to be human.
 
I never asked that question. 

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 Animals go into heat, and don't really have a choice about it, people have a choice.  That is not to deny there are pressures to have sex (and pressures not to have sex), which can pull us back and forth on the issue.  Some of those pressures are psychological, some are sociological, I don't think that means they are bad.
Who is pressuring you to have sex Frankie?

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 You talk as if "repression" was a bad thing, but it is a Freudian term, and it shows that you have already bought into a Freudian psychology of everything being sexual. You probably have bought into it, without ever having read it (not that I have either).
You could not be more off base. I think Freud was a FRAUD. Sex is the greatest human drive. Repression of sexuality is devastating for human beings and animals.

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

  The difference between us is not that I'm an academic and you're not, the difference is that Freudian psychology explains some things, but at some point becomes psychobabble.  Do you realize that???  So ask yourself, a young girl wants "give herself" to her boyfriend, her parents want to stop her from doing so, are they repressing her? or do they just think he is a good for nothing that wants to get into her pants?  Or could it be a little bit of A, and a little bit of B?  Sex is very powerful, and to think that it is nobody's business but the immediate "involved" parties, is incorrect.  It involves the individual, the family, the tribe, the church, the nation, whether people want it to or not.
So I don't know why you are getting upset about the pope and sex in a thread on the scientific revolution, but then I guess everything is related to everything else in the end....
It has nothing to do with Freud. You just won't acknowledge what I'm sure you know about the history of the church. The most devoted monastics engaged in long hours of contemplative prayer also known as meditation. You acknowledge that the Eastern religions had advanced spiritual understanding.  The link between sexual energy and contemplative prayer or meditation is well established. Spiritual energy becomes sexual during advanced practice. It's just your body, don't be afraid.

Simply by being a good monk and adhering to the Papal principles meant that self abuse was called for to 'chase away the demons' (Celibacy wasn't forced on people until the 11th century). All the while popes were getting it on with men, women and children. 
If these devoted monastics understood that they were not evil bc they got woody they might have achieved great, inspired states like the allegorical gold that the alchemist was searching for. If they could reach inspired states of mind they may have advanced technology or other forms of understanding about the natural world like Boehme. If you read the opening post you will see that I laid it all out, you have taken us on this road to nowhere.

I patiently entertained all of your misgivings about Bacon as the anti-spiritualist; he was all ambition driven by a need to out-do his contemporaries especially Newton. You didn't address the alternative history theme at all. So, I wonder why you ever brought the thread back?

For your reading pleasure Hug

Self-flagellation



Guilt, Depression & The Dobby Effect (LaRae LaBouff)



  NOTE: This article is taken from the PsychCentral Blog. The 2007 study referenced is included at the end of the article.
In a 2007 study, researchers found that often people who feel guilty will self-punish by depriving themselves of pleasure or inflicting harm on themselves. They call this The Dobby Effect. For those who have never read the Harry Potter series, Dobby is a magical creature, a house-elf, that is bound by magic to obey his master’s every command. If a house-elf does not obey, they are forced to punish themselves. For example, at various points through the books, Dobby is known to do everything from hit himself in the face to ironing his hands or shutting his ears in the oven door [NOTE: In Geronda Ephraim’s monasteries, if the house-elves (i.e. monastic disciples) disobey a command, they are forced to punish themselves with various forms of hardship. Once, a nun would not stop talking and Geronda Ephraim told her to go sew her mouth shut. She went to her cell, took her sewing kit and sewed her mouth shut. It is unknown if she sterilized the needle first. She came back, showed Geronda Ephraim her mouth sewn shut and he marveled at her precision in obedience. Interestingly, sewing one’s mouth shut is popular among the BDSM community, much like Fr. George Passias’ foot and cake crush fetish].




Edited by Vanuatu - 30 May 2017 at 23:18
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4997
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2017 at 02:19
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Es Spirito Sancti.

Some of us grew up in the church and they did, in the 1970's and later condemn science. They illustrated these "Truths" through children who claimed visionary experiences in Fatima Portugal and Garabandal, Spain.
Those ideas were drilled into us children and nuns were easily stumped by questions like "If Henry Ford used the scientific method to build cars, shouldn't we stop using them?" Evil Smile Since science is evil?

Hee hee. I used to use the old chestnut,"God created Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain and Able. Cain slew Able, and went into the land of Nod where he took for himself a wife." Ay?

But, back on post, despite our religeous upbringing, we, thankfully recognised the holes in the story being peddled, as did many others. Science had become the new God, and in one way or another, we all serve it. Mamon, I don't think so.




Edited by toyomotor - 01 Jun 2017 at 01:37
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 01:08
I think, Vanuatu, what you mean by alternate history is very different from what I mean by alternate history.  An alternate history for the scientific revolution is what if Galileo had read Johannes Kepler's book, which described the orbit of Mars as an ellipse.  We know that Galileo had Kepler's book, but he had a falling out with Kepler because Kepler had supported Tycho Brahe's model of the solar system, so he did not read it.  If he had, being a mathematician, he might have come up with calculus himself, on the other hand, maybe not.  
Galileo was busy defending what was called the Pythagorean view (Copernicus) against not the Church, but the Aristotelian science (and Ptolemaic system) that was prevalent both inside and outside the Church at the same time.  In defending it, he insulted the Pope who would have been an ally if he hadn't been insulted.
How about this, what if Kepler had not supported his mentor's system, maybe Galileo would have read Kepler's book, on the other hand, maybe Kepler would not have inherited Brahe's data which is what made him realize that orbits are ellipses in the first place.  The trial of Galileo meant that the scientific center shifted away from Italy and away from the Catholic Church, so maybe if you didn't have the trial, you wouldn't have Descartes, or Newton, or Leibniz, or Leewenhouck (sp? microscopes).  The Renaissance was over, but science shifted and diffused.  If the Renaissance had continued, and Italy had remained the center, modern science probably would have remained a parochial interest.

So if Francis Bacon had not advocated the interrogation of nature, well Machiavelli advocated the same thing, I don't know if one was dependent on the other or not.  But I do know that Francis Bacon wouldn't be Francis Bacon, for it was not just one decision that got him advocate the interrogation (torture) of nature.  Maybe there is a pivotal event in his life, but I don't know what it was.  Maybe there was an event in his life that could have killed him but it didn't, or maybe if he had lived longer, I wonder what Jesus would have become if he had lived longer, would he have mellowed out in his old age?  I don't know.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4997
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 01:44
Vanuatu

Perhaps it's just me, but I do believe that Franky just gone off on one of his tangents again. I could be mistaken, but I though this thread was about Scientific Revolution, which did take place, and is still taking place as we speak.

I don't feel the need to list all of the scientific breaks through in the past ten years, let alone the past century.

My Mther in Law (beautiful old lady) is 92 years of age. Now, she's seen a real scientific revolution in her time, virtual miracles.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 02:10
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

Perhaps it's just me, but I do believe that Franky just gone off on one of his tangents again. I could be mistaken, but I though this thread was about Scientific Revolution, which did take place, and is still taking place as we speak.

I don't feel the need to list all of the scientific breaks through in the past ten years, let alone the past century.

My Mther in Law (beautiful old lady) is 92 years of age. Now, she's seen a real scientific revolution in her time, virtual miracles.

That is a lovely thought toyomotor and these are things that we can be proud of as a species. 

I knew all along that it was just my idea of alternative history that was the problem and now that I've been found out I shall retire back into the darkest depths of Mordor. Party And do google the cake video mentioned at the end the article it's hysterical.


Edited by Vanuatu - 01 Jun 2017 at 02:14
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 02:56
Don't give up Vanuatu, unless you want toCry  Please, I'll try to play nice.

toyomotor, I thought I was bringing it back to the original topic, which starts with Francis Bacon and alternate history.  I find it amazing what happened, with Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Brahe, Descartes, Newton, etc.  It is amazing _that_ it happened.  There is a lot of, "what if this happened?" or "what if that?" with the scientific revolution.

Alchemy has its place in the imagination, something with which we need to get more in touch.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 03:12
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Don't give up Vanuatu, unless you want toCry  Please, I'll try to play nice.

toyomotor, I thought I was bringing it back to the original topic, which starts with Francis Bacon and alternate history.  I find it amazing what happened, with Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Brahe, Descartes, Newton, etc.  It is amazing _that_ it happened.  There is a lot of, "what if this happened?" or "what if that?" with the scientific revolution.

Alchemy has its place in the imagination, something with which we need to get more in touch.

Maybe you can keep playing with yourself Clap
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4997
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 03:51
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

Perhaps it's just me, but I do believe that Franky just gone off on one of his tangents again. I could be mistaken, but I though this thread was about Scientific Revolution, which did take place, and is still taking place as we speak.

I don't feel the need to list all of the scientific breaks through in the past ten years, let alone the past century.

My Mother in Law (beautiful old lady) is 92 years of age. Now, she's seen a real scientific revolution in her time, virtual miracles.

That is a lovely thought toyomotor and these are things that we can be proud of as a species. 

I knew all along that it was just my idea of alternative history that was the problem and now that I've been found out I shall retire back into the darkest depths of Mordor. Party And do google the cake video mentioned at the end the article it's hysterical.

I'll never eat cake again! But worst of all, I couldn't hear the weather report from the TV in the background-very erotic. Perhaps I shouldn't watch TV weather reports either.LOL
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4997
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 03:53
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Don't give up Vanuatu, unless you want toCry  Please, I'll try to play nice.

toyomotor, I thought I was bringing it back to the original topic, which starts with Francis Bacon and alternate history.  I find it amazing what happened, with Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Brahe, Descartes, Newton, etc.  It is amazing _that_ it happened.  There is a lot of, "what if this happened?" or "what if that?" with the scientific revolution.

Alchemy has its place in the imagination, something with which we need to get more in touch.

Frank, mate, sometimes you tend to go off track, and at my age, I get confused easily. I would appreciate it if you made it all more simple, like words of one or two sylables for example.Wink
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 2017 at 04:20
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Don't give up Vanuatu, unless you want toCry  Please, I'll try to play nice.

toyomotor, I thought I was bringing it back to the original topic, which starts with Francis Bacon and alternate history.  I find it amazing what happened, with Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Brahe, Descartes, Newton, etc.  It is amazing _that_ it happened.  There is a lot of, "what if this happened?" or "what if that?" with the scientific revolution.

Alchemy has its place in the imagination, something with which we need to get more in touch.

Frank, mate, sometimes you tend to go off track, and at my age, I get confused easily. I would appreciate it if you made it all more simple, like words of one or two sylables for example.Wink

Chinese President, Xi Jinping raved about the chocolate cake when he visited US last month, but it was the weather report in the backround that caught FIRE.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 3306
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2017 at 01:53
Background weather report caught fire?  What does that mean?  
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4997
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2017 at 01:59
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Background weather report caught fire?  What does that mean?  

You need to have seen the video coverage.
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2017 at 00:35
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Background weather report caught fire?  What does that mean?  

You need to have seen the video coverage.

The back round weather report was about a storm and more bad weather to come. To catch fire means to catch hell or to be admonished.

The story is not shocking we are used to priests being caught in strange sexual situations and identify them as perverts in film, books, tv and other media.

So I was joking that watching the video, people would be seeing the bad weather as the upsetting part.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4997
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2017 at 02:46
Vanuatu

But you know that Frank doesn't recognise humour. As he's said many times, he's an academic, we're not, so his mind works on a different plane to ours.

He also has difficulty with inference and inuendo (the latter being a procedure where a camera is inserted into one's rectum to examine the rectal tract).LOL


Edited by toyomotor - 03 Jun 2017 at 02:48
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 1711
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 02:45
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

But you know that Frank doesn't recognise humour. As he's said many times, he's an academic, we're not, so his mind works on a different plane to ours.

He also has difficulty with inference and inuendo (the latter being a procedure where a camera is inserted into one's rectum to examine the rectal tract).LOL

The Italian master Uppauassa, developed a scientific method to dislodge Marie Antoinette's cake: this day in history.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.