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Scientific Revolution

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 02:51
Tell me more!
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 04:17
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Tell me more!

The brave Lemmewinks , a gerbil.

The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 05:43
I give up!  Confused
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2017 at 05:46
Quote

You say you want a revolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world
You tell me that it's evolution
Well, you know
We all want to change the world

But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know that you can count me out

Don't you know it's gonna be alright
Alright, alright

You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
You ask me for a contribution
Well, you know
We're all doing what we can

But if you want money for people with minds that hate
All I can tell you is brother you have to wait

Don't you know it's gonna be alright
Alright, alright, al...

You say you'll change the constitution
Well, you know
We all want to change your head
You tell me it's the institution
Well, you know
You'd better free your mind instead

But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow

Don't you know know it's gonna be alright
Alright, alright

Alright, alright
Alright, alright
Alright, alright
Alright, alright

Just about sums it up, I'd say.

It's not that I was born in Ireland,
It's the Ireland that was born in me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2017 at 22:23
You've been watching Southpark.

I may go to Southpark later today.

I think people only tell you it is going to be alright if it is not alright, right now.
chances are it will become alright, things will get better, or you'll get accustomed
to (habituated to) how crummy they are right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2017 at 23:54
Yes, people who are living in crummy become accustomed to it, and so don't know any better, and can't imagine better.

But what's all of that got to do with scientific revolution?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2017 at 00:26
What does the Beatles song, Revolution, have to do with the scientific Revolution?

Could it be that if you tell people they are progressing, especially scientific progress, they'll put up with mediocre conditions (especially if you tell them it is inevitable)?  In other words, its alright, and even if it isn't alright, there is nothing you can do about it anyway, or so we are told.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2017 at 02:03
The words to the Beatles song were intended as a bit of light relief, not as a response, really, to the post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2017 at 19:51
But it is a response, however, it is not a reply.  'All replies are responses, but not all responses are replies.'  Learned that from the alien ambassador G'Kar on Babylon 5.  The word "Revolution" in Copernicus' book, (something like) 'Revolutions of the Heavenly Orbs,' was considered, well, revolutionary, in an anti-monarchical, anti-status quo way.  Imagine Copernicus singing, "Were going to have a revolution! you know, we all want to change the world...."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 01:46
Let's just agree that a scientific revolution has taken place, and is still taking place around us. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 03:48
I don't know, this is an alternative history thread.  Maybe the scientific revolution was a dream, or a nightmare, depending on your perspective.  I mean, seriously, we could admit that the scientific revolution took place, and that it is still taking place.  Where does that get us?  

Seriously, what if everything we are told is a fiction?  Or let's call it a dream, for dreams can also come true.  Maybe the illuminati have been hiding the truth for ages, but they slipped, and let the cat out of the bag.  Or maybe the Catholic Church had things under control, and things slipped and now the Beast of technology is unleashed.  Or we can say "it took place," without clarifying and pretend that we know what we are talking about.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 05:32
Franciscosan

Oh boy!!!

Beware of men in white jackets and carring large nets, you really are way out there.LOL
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2017 at 22:11
Been there, done that!  It's way over rated.  Apparently, you think I am some kind of a moth.

The Moth was a sidekick of the superhero, the Tick.  The Tick is "neigh invulnerable" and his immense strength is only matched by his stupidity. me, I am no sidekick nor superhero.  It is the Tick, not the Moth that originally escaped from sedation.  But, back to our previously scheduled program.

This is just a hypothetical, what if modern science is not that modern but has been around for eons, a closely guarded secret of the priestly caste, and the magicians (Magi).  That secret happened to get out when the Printing Press was invented.  Maybe the antikythera device is really the tip of the ice berg, and ice berg of technological and scientific achievement that was hidden by the priesthood, but finally burst forth with the scientific revolution, and the accompanying printing press.

I am _not_ saying that is what happened.  This just an vision of what _might_ have been, a bit artificial and contrived, but I think that we might make a good story of it.  Fitting of a Jules Verne or an HG Wells.
Now in its over all scope, I consider it a work of fiction, but the truth can come out in fiction, the way it would never be found in factual-historical accounts.  Like Coppola's Movie, _Apocalypse_Now_ with the helicopters coming in to destroy the village, blaring _Flight_of_the_Valkyrie_.  It never happened, but it is an great and imaginatively depiction of getting swept up in the feeling of war.  It never happened, but perhaps it _should_ have happened.  Could we come up with an imaginative perspective regarding the scientific revolution, that while not entirely factical would reveal something essential about it?  Maybe that is what Vanuatu was tried to do, and maybe I was too harsh on her......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2017 at 01:50
Franciscosan

No, I don't think you're a moth, just more than a little looney.

I've often wondered about some of the ancient marvels, such as the Antikythera Machine, and workable batteries, and so on that have been found, technoilogies that were around thousands of years ago, and then disappeared until the second millenia.

I don't know where the ideas came from, I don't know why they weren't developed and used through the centuries, I've often asked those questions on this forum, and we haven't reached an answer. Aliens? I just don't know, but the magi or priestly sects, I don't think so.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 00:27
Well, atomic theory comes from Democritus of Abdera 5th-4th c. BC
elemental theory comes from Empedocles of Akragas, 5th c. BC
many world's hypothesis comes from Pythagoreans and the Atomists, might say that becomes the multi-verse.  And also the recognition of each star is a sun.
Both the geocentric and heliocentric universe (solar system) come from ancient Greece, if you know about the concept of parallax, as the ancient Greeks did, then the geocentric model seems to work better.
The four humors model of health, is also from the ancient Greeks.
They had theories of vision and perception, bone growth, evolutionary ideas (but not as we have them), observation of fossils.  In general, they did not have the instrumentation that we have, which was developed in the Middle Ages and was part of the base that the scientific revolution was built on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 01:36
And your point is?
It's not that I was born in Ireland,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 01:56
You said that you didn't know where the ideas came from.  Well, for a lot of them, they have been 'appropriated' from the ancient Greeks.  Where do you think knowledge was stored in ancient Mesopotamia? the priestly caste for one kind of knowledge, the craftsmen for another, but the craftsmen catered to the priesthood and the god-king.  One way to look at the rise of Greek philosophy (and history, etc.) is as a freeing up from the priesthood.  Another way is realize that the phonetic alphabet made literacy a skill not just for the scribes, but for a general public, which if they weren't all literate could more easily find someone who was. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2017 at 10:48
Quote Well, atomic theory comes from Democritus of Abdera 5th-4th c. BC
No it doesn't. Whilst he postulated certain ideas of that kind, it was more recent theory and research that led to atomic science. There was no continuation between the two.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jun 2017 at 01:02
Actually atomic theory comes from Leucippus, the teacher of Democritus, but we don't know that much about Leucippus of Abdera.  He may have been associated with the Eleatics.

Atom is a Greek word meaning, basically, uncuttable.  Of course, modern atomism recognizes parts of the atom.  I believe Einstein's analysis of Brownian motion helped confirm there were smaller entities, atoms, that were jostling tiny water droplets and making them move.

Elemental theory has also gone through a modern transformation.  What originally were called elements were states of matter, air, earth, fire, water, and the fifth element, aether/soul or if you watch the Fifth Element, love.  There are five states of matter known, solid, liquid, gaseous, plasma, and when you get near O degrees Kelvin, there is a weird fifth state of matter.

Of course, modern atomic theory, or elemental theory (as in periodic table) are different from ancient theory, but the fact that there were 'models' which could be adopted and adapted from antiquity, helped the imagination conceptualize the modern results.  I am not sure what exactly you mean by continuation, I think the fact that we use the word "atom" or "element" or "matter," means that there is some kind of connection.  If nothing else, that ideas were appropriated to make something new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2017 at 13:45
This is great, the discussion I'd hoped for in some regard.

Today Islamo-terrorists are the religious fanatics, in the time of the Cathars it was the Papacy. 
Putting aside personal religious beliefs and considering the advance of science with out Bacon's Scientific Method or Descartes dog killing vivisection was the alternative history conception.

So much has been learned and lost usually because of war or the powers that be; the un-tethered discovery of nature's secrets in the ancient world is a spiritually vertical experience. It does not come from a panoramic data field but from our own connections to the earth through spiritual practices.  
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2017 at 22:19
I don't know what science would look like without Bacon or Descartes.  Descartes rewrote the equation,
from
man<-> nature <-> God  (In other words, man learned about God through observing the world/nature.)
to
nature/world<->man<->the soul/God (In other words, nature and science became divorced from theology, God and the soul.)  

Theologians look upon the world as a gift, whereas scientists tend to look upon the world as a given.
I think we would have more gift if we hadn't gone down the science as interrogation of nature (Bacon).
I think we might have not gotten so mechanical/mechanistic (like La Mettrie, 'Man the Machine'), instead may have courted more with naturalism and so we may have avoided the Socio-Darwinism and professionalization of natural science such as advocated by Darwin's bulldog, T. Huxley.


Edited by franciscosan - 23 Jun 2017 at 22:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 14:10
I would add that we as an earth culture would look more like Japan without Bacon or Descartes. Building into the hills and using the natural landscape rather than building up. My guess is that Japan came closest to using science to enhance rather than rebuild existing principles of life force. 

Science does appear to be taking us to man the machine. It seems more likely to me, that man would have to be part machine in order to manage extended space travel. Less likely that our technology will advance enough for travel to other solar systems until man is merged with machine.

Couldn't entire swaths of ancient people have lived and died with no record of their existence left behind? 
Entire continents of highly civilized humans could have been wiped out by natural disasters along with scientific methods. I read somewhere that in parts of Africa they do not use wheels of any kind. I don't know if that's true but it illustrates the point that until there is some grasping for a change in gestalt from the minds of humans, life maintains itself well without interference.

  
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 15:31
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Entire continents of highly civilized humans could have been wiped out by natural disasters along with scientific methods. I read somewhere that in parts of Africa they do not use wheels of any kind. I don't know if that's true but it illustrates the point that until there is some grasping for a change in gestalt from the minds of humans, life maintains itself well without interference.

I agree, in the highlands of New Guinea and the remote outback of Australia, for example, people live pretty closely in the manner in which their Stone Age ancestors did, and, in some cases, despite attempts by whites to change their way of life.

The same can be seen in the deep Amazon, where all the people want is to be left alone.

As for extended space travel, I read recently that NASA is looking into how the effect of space travel would impact on sexual relations and procreation, (I offered my services buy I haven't heard back yet) bearing mind that the generation which reached the far distant planets will not be the one which left earth.

I personally don't believe in space travel, rather that the money should be spent improving the lot of the millions of starving on our planet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 16:02
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:


As for extended space travel, I read recently that NASA is looking into how the effect of space travel would impact on sexual relations and procreation, (I offered my services buy I haven't heard back yet) bearing mind that the generation which reached the far distant planets will not be the one which left earth.

I personally don't believe in space travel, rather that the money should be spent improving the lot of the millions of starving on our planet.


I'll tell ya, at zero gravity that would be SOME MAN.  

It seems absurd that we can't do both there is/was plenty to go around. It all goes back to the bankers.

The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2017 at 16:07
As I said, I offered. And where there's a will, there's a way.

Quite frankly, I think space travel is a load of crap, we need to fix our own planet before we ruin someone elses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2017 at 04:20
The first and only scientist on the moon was a geologist in the last Apollo mission.  Other planets offer us a way to understand Earth, for one thing, they are a lot more simple than Earth geological (I am not talking about the gas giants.)  But being full of hot air, I would expect you to have sympathies with the gas giants, toyomotor.Wink

NASA does experiments with populations in Antarctica, diet and just understanding the stress of limited populations in hostile environments.  maybe you could volunteer your services down there, toyomotor<grin>.  Freeze your tuckus off!

But I do think we are living in a time of scientific revolution, but I wonder if we will lose our humanity:(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2017 at 11:00
Franciscosan

I won't lower myself to petty insults.

I adhere to my last post, the billions of dollars spent world wide on the so called space race could just about eradicate the starvation that exists inmany countries, and the medical problems.

That to me is far more important than star gazing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 2017 at 15:33
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Franciscosan

I won't lower myself to petty insults.

I adhere to my last post, the billions of dollars spent world wide on the so called space race could just about eradicate the starvation that exists inmany countries, and the medical problems.

That to me is far more important than star gazing.

The money spent to keep Las Vegas cool could support a third world country. The money spent on air conditioning in the US could probably level off starvation around the world. It's not just money right? 
There is no world wide cooperative to effort to solve problems. 
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 2017 at 16:31
You are so serious.  I am just trying to tease you a little, toyomotor,  But I imagine that if you include weather satellites and communications satellites and GPS, space activities would pay for themselves.  I also think that it is important to have a frontier, at least conceptually.  A pressure valve so to speak.

I am also not convinced that people won't always be pushing the carrying capacity of the planet, and bumping up against wildlife, causing more extinction.  Famine is usually more to food distribution problems, not so much food production problems.  We are producing enough food, it just isn't getting to some places, but a big part of that are the governments, effectively preventing it.  So ideas that we will eradicate starvation are optimistic, imo.  more food means more population, means more hunger.

But, it is interesting that you don't like star gazing, because it was astronomy that started off the scientific revolution.  It is our ability to imagine something else, that allows us to make it happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2017 at 02:01
No, I don't actually mean Astronomy, and I don't criticise the presence of satellites for weather, communication or military purposes, what I'm talking about is the push for inter-planetary travel.

As I said earlier, let's fix this planet before we stuff another one up.
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