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Semitic Dagon vs Dagon (Yangon) of Myanmar

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    Posted: 14 Jan 2021 at 03:41
Does Semitic god Dagon patronizing fishermen in Eastern Mediterranean have any relation to the etymology of the name of the former fishing village of Yangon (formerly called Dagon) in today's Myanmar? 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 02:56
If there is a connection, it is deeply, deeply, deeply hidden, if the Illuminati show up at your door one evening, you might ask them.  I would consider it akin to the God-dog hypothesis, which only works in English.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 2021 at 18:02
Well, I don't want to seem paranoid. I ain't an adherent of conspiracy theories either. But that's not the only linguistic question I have here to ask.

For instance, the money currency of such Turkic speaking countries as Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan is called "Manat". Manat is also the name of Arab pagan goddess that had some relation to measurement (this was before Arab embraced monotheism). The online etymological dictionaries seem to somehow disregard the obvious similarity in phonology and semantics.  

The thing about Turkish language is that the concentration of Arab loan-words in it is particularly high for the words which have "M"as their first letter. Historically Arab culture had a tremendeous impact on Turkic-speaking people. So...


Edited by Novosedoff - 23 Feb 2021 at 18:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2021 at 03:28
Looking it up on wiki, manat was goddess of destiny and fate, not mensuration??  But, of course, that dealing with an English interpretation, so maybe there is more to the story.  I am inclined to think it is a coincidence, and if it is not a coincidence, then so what?  Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan adoption of Manat seems like it would be post-Islamic, not something held over from pre-Islamic times, from thousands of miles away.  It would seem like to me that manat would stem from 'money' or 'monetary,' but I would be skeptical of those also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 2021 at 18:53
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Looking it up on wiki, manat was goddess of destiny and fate, not mensuration??  But, of course, that dealing with an English interpretation, so maybe there is more to the story.  I am inclined to think it is a coincidence, and if it is not a coincidence, then so what?  Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan adoption of Manat seems like it would be post-Islamic, not something held over from pre-Islamic times, from thousands of miles away.  It would seem like to me that manat would stem from 'money' or 'monetary,' but I would be skeptical of those also.

Well, I agree, it could be because of Russian influence. In Russian language a coin means "moneta" (although the funny thing is that the Russian word for "money"  - den'gi - originally was borrowed from Tatar-Turkic word "tenge" - which is also the name of the currency of modern day Kazakhstan).

Some online sources claim that the word "moneta" for coin is likely to have been borrowed by Russians from Polish. This could be true because Poland used to be the main supplier of silver to Russia back in 17th century. Polish silver was used to mint Russian coins. However because of frequent wars with Poland such economic dependency  eventually led to Copper riot in Moscow in 1662, when Russian government secretly reduced the amount of silver in Russian coins due to shortage of silver:

Azerbaijan was conquered by Russian empire from Persian empire in the first half of the 19th century, whereas Turkmenistan was conquered by the very end of 19th century during so-called the Great game. I ain't sure about Azeri people, but Turkmeni people lived pretty much by wild tribal life in 19th century, which gave very little space for mining metals and minting their own coins (although some local Turkmeni warheads could have prompted the circulation of their own coins nearby their home bases, unlikely to be wide-scale though).   
   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2021 at 20:12
In addition to above 2 meanings of Dagon, there is also the Dogon tribe in Africa:

Quote Dogon religious life is heightened every 60 years by a ceremony called the sigui, which occurs when the star Sirius appears between two mountain peaks. Before the ceremony, young men go into seclusion for three months, during which they talk in a secret language. The general ceremony rests on the belief that some 3,000 years ago amphibious beings from Sirius visited the Dogon.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Dogon




Edited by Novosedoff - 30 May 2021 at 20:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2021 at 04:15
Sounds like something from H.P. Lovecraft and the dread Elder gods (amphibious beings from Sirius).  Why can't you just believe in something normal like the virgin birth?  Secret languages?  I wonder if it would show anything linguistically interesting, or if it was like the tribal equivalent of pig latin.
Sirius is the dog star in ancient Greece, present in the hottest days (the dog days of) Summer.  If you look up Burnham's (Celestial guide??) it gives you a good summary of the astronomical and cultural facts around Sirius or any major and some minor astronomical phenomena.  I want to say it was published in the '60s, or '70s.  Still available in three volumes from Dover Press.  Just for interstellar phenomena, not intra-solar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2021 at 13:15
Sirius is the brightest and one of the nearest stars in the sky, which is not to be disregarded as far as the travel time is concerned. But more important is the nature of the story the tribe has come up with. You can't make up a story like that because it is so different. It is the abnormality of their story that makes me wonder if there is anything real behind it. Should it be the virgin birth etc, I would have been immediately bored, probably given up reading any further instantly because that would be so obscure, enigmatic and impractical.

But the other thing about the story is that the same word (Dagon) in connection with water is repeated across multiple locations on the earth. The African tribe resides far from the Mediterranean region where the semitic civilization flourished. The fishermen village in Myanmar is far from both previous either. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jun 2021 at 07:23
Originally posted by Novosedoff Novosedoff wrote:

Sirius is the brightest and one of the nearest stars in the sky, which is not to be disregarded as far as the travel time is concerned. But more important is the nature of the story the tribe has come up with. You can't make up a story like that because it is so different. It is the abnormality of their story that makes me wonder if there is anything real behind it. Should it be the virgin birth etc, I would have been immediately bored, probably given up reading any further instantly because that would be so obscure, enigmatic and impractical.

But the other thing about the story is that the same word (Dagon) in connection with water is repeated across multiple locations on the earth. The African tribe resides far from the Mediterranean region where the semitic civilization flourished. The fishermen village in Myanmar is far from both previous either. 
The masks hit too close to home.
The Dogons did have tidy slaving system during US colonial period, it may have been the way to keep themselves off the market. It always goes back to dragons and creation :) 

Why are twins more common in Africa?
Africa's lead is thus mainly due to the high incidence of fraternal twins, since 52% are born on that continent. Nearly 1 in every 100 deliveries is a twin birth.Apr 1, 2020


Edited by Vanuatu - 10 Jun 2021 at 07:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 04:34
Twins run in certain families, if your culture esteem twins that would mean that it would be more likely for twins to have children (which have a higher chance of being twins).  Also, nazis did experiments on twins, which would mean that certain lineages of twins would be depressed.  I also assume that inbreeding would increase the likelihood of twins, but I don't know that.

Actually, I think virgin birth is interesting from a social perspective.  How are you going to explain it to your boy friend, who has been waiting for you to "give it up"?  I think that how a 'society' decides that it must have been a 'virgin birth' is very interesting.  For some reason, the community decides that for this unwed pregnancy, the conditions are 'special,' and the girl shouldn't merely be shamed.  Maybe part of the shaming process is to get they guy to come forward, and take responsibility.

I am not sure I would consider Sirius to be close, for that matter, Proxima Centauri is not really close either.  Relatively close, yes.  But of a distance that to us would seem prohibitive.  But, Burnham talks about Sirius being described as a different color in antiquity.  Red, I believe.  Not in all descriptions, but in many.  Why it would be red is a puzzlement.  Not explainable by the main sequence evolution.  I think now it is blueish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jun 2021 at 06:57
Red stars and blue stars are on the opposite sides of the Hertzsprung-Russell diagram, which is a long path for a star to evolve Smile

As for Sirius worshipped by Dogon people, I quite liked the explanation proposed in the below wiki-article, which seems to debunk the whole theory behind the myth
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon_people#Astronomical_beliefs

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 05:00
I tend to think that there is a kernel of truth in most myths.  Now, I also think that usually we cannot figure out the significance, and so it is best to leave it (the myth) alone.  That does not mean that one should not wrestle with it, but rather it is to recognize that most analysis is reductionistic, and in the process of dissection, usually kills the 'patient.'  If Burnham had known about the Sirius worship by the Dogon people, he would have undoubtedly included it in his cultural description of the star in his Celestial Guide (Reader, whatever he called it), like he did for the Lord of the Rings reference, and the H.P. Lovecraft reference (Hyades).  But, maybe I will look up the article you mention.

Okay, it looks like the water is muddy, and it is not very clear what exactly is being asserted.  It would make rich territory for science fiction/fantasy.  But, it seems to be on the level of imagination, not of scientifically rigorous knowledge.  Reminds me of the Indian and Aliens stories on the 'first peoples channel.'


Edited by franciscosan - 13 Jun 2021 at 05:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jun 2021 at 10:45
The change of color could be true. Neil Tyson and Michael Strauss discussed this phenomenon in chapter 12 of their "Welcome to the Universe".

My initial assertion was that the linguistic similarities didn't seem coincidental in their relation to fishing and amphibious creatures in places that stood apart from each other Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 2021 at 13:52
Do you think you are going to be able to elaborate on such (a supposed) connection?  They do not seem coincidental compared to what?  One can read into there, their, and they're, but grounding out the 'theres' in some kind of commonality is nebulous at best.  Do you have some kind of criteria under which they (your sites) are similar, or perhaps you are intuiting a similarity which may or may not be there? Now I don't see it absolutely totally as a coincidence, there are linguistic limitations for the creation of words, and both Myanmar, Africa and the Middle East are going to be familiar with some kinds of amphibians.  If you had some idea of an orangutan in some culture in the new world, or a tapir in the old world that would be interesting.  So would cotton or tobacco in the Egyptian pyramids.
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