| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Shall we preserve wolves and other big predators?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Shall we preserve wolves and other big predators?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2010 at 11:43
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

the wolf population is not spread over a 450 000 square Km. only in few places well they can surely leave their habitat, but it is seldom so. in värmland where the wolf population is more concentrated . it has been plenty of damge to domestigue animals. we shoulden't forget that wolves are not the only predators in sweden thear are nearly 1500+ bears and many thousends foxes(a fox family usually need to  eat 7-10 roe deer's kid every year) and many hundred lynx and volvorine and badgers and all of them need fresh meat to eat Wink and many thousends hunters  like me loving venisonSmile


Well, of course the wolves are not spread around the whole surface, since they mostly are pack animals and not all land are suitable for them to live. So they will concentrate in suitable areas. I just pointed out that Sweden has still a rather low density of wolves, with some here and some there. Many other places in the world have higher densities and Sweden also one time had thousands of wolves, which still did not exterminate their natural prey. In those time we had many more bears and lynx too.

Foxes do eat a lot of other things than roe deer, they eat rodents, hares and different birds. Without foxes, birds of prey and other small predators our country would be totally overwhelmed by rodents (mice, voles and others).


Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2010 at 12:21
the natural ballance have been altered by human population long ago and now we need to ballance it by study of wildlife and trying to creat a kind of ballance which both predators and prey can survive. i beleive some limited predator hunting is needed to creat this ballance . svenskajagarforbundet and hunting community do all they can to keep this ballance.beleive me the hunters are not a bunch of bruts as they are presented in hollywood moviesCry. we love the wildlife and feel for preserving it.
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2010 at 13:37
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

the natural ballance have been altered by human population long ago and now we need to ballance it by study of wildlife and trying to creat a kind of ballance which both predators and prey can survive. i beleive some limited predator hunting is needed to creat this ballance . svenskajagarforbundet and hunting community do all they can to keep this ballance.beleive me the hunters are not a bunch of bruts as they are presented in hollywood moviesCry. we love the wildlife and feel for preserving it.


Well, I think too many of the representants for hunters organisations as the The Swedish Association for Hunting and Wildlife Management that speak in the media has a too restrictive view of predators. They seem rather biased and seem to be victims of the old fear for these animals.

The views forwarded by Svenska Naturskyddsforeningen (Swedish association for protection of Nature) and Svenska Rovdjursforeningen (Swedish organisation for predators) seem more balanced.
Back to Top
Reginmund View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 2659
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2010 at 13:42
Preserve? At least there's no point in trying our best to exterminate them through hunting. Sure, the wolves may pick off a few sheep here and there, but we have more than enough sheep and quite few wolves. Why do we need the wolves? I guess we don't really need them, but I find their presence to be an essential part of nature's identity around these parts.
Sing, goddess, of Achilles' ruinous anger
Which brought ten thousand pains to the Achaeans,
And cast the souls of many stalwart heroes
To Hades, and their bodies to the dogs
And birds of prey
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2010 at 15:58
Many times animals like deer and moose are more healthy in areas where there are predators like the wolf. When humans hunt these animals they have a tendency to shoot the most healthy individuals (many times for example they choose the  moose or deer with the largest antlers) and leaving the rest, while the natural predators often find the weakest animals most easy to catch, thus contributing to upholding a good status of health among the individuals in a population.
Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2010 at 17:07
Did you know how many persons have been killed recent years by bear in sweden?and if a pack of wolves can kill a moose !! how about your children waiting for a shoolbus ??? do you know how many dogs have been killed by wolf recent years?  of course it seems unhuman to kill a moose or roe deer . but a moose or deer have a much better life than  pigs or chicken that are born inside a farm and slaughtered very young and never being free or even being outside and feeling  the sunlight !! before reaching the slaughter house.if we try to not be very sensitive and see the truth eating game meat is much more ethical than buying meat  from a shop and wolf only eating sick and weak is only half of  the truth they kill much more new born and very young deers , because  simply they are easier to catch. it is nice to have a bears and wolves in the forest  not around your house if you have children playing around.

Edited by kalhor - 29 Jan 2010 at 17:15
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2010 at 17:35
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

Did you know how many persons have been killed recent years by bear in sweden?and if a pack of wolves can kill a moose !! how about your children waiting for a shoolbus ???


Well shall we go into people killed by animals then we can see that wasps are among the animals that kills most people. Still noone demands that they should be exterminated (well, someone perhaps does). Mosquitos and tics probably also kills more people than bears. Shall we proceed to mans own domestic animals than of course both bulls and dogs kills and injures more people than any bears. And talking about larger animals an angry moose is probably more of a threat than any bear. Recently one could read in the newspapers about a person killed by a moose.

When it comes to wolves no confirmed killings of humans by wolves in Sweden have occured since the Gysinge wolf went on a rampage in 1821. And that was a wolf bread in captivity that lost its natural fear of humans.

The children waiting for the schoolbus is much more likely to be run over by a car (or by the schoolbus) or be killed by some crazy madman than be killed by wolves.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

do you know how many dogs have been killed by wolf recent years? 


And how many wild animals have been killed by loose running dogs in the same time?

One can also notice that investigations suggest that more livestock, especially sheep and poultry, are killed by loose running dogs than by wild predators every year.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

....of course it seems unhuman to kill a moose or roe deer . but a moose or deer have a much better life than  pigs or chicken that are born inside a farm and slaughtered very young and never being free or even being outside and feeling  the sunlight !! before reaching the slaughter house.if we try to not be very sensitive and see the truth eating game meat is much more ethical than buying meat  from a shop and wolf only eating sick and weak is only half of  the truth they kill much more new born and very young deers , because  simply they are easier to catch. it is nice to have a bears and wolves in the forest  not around your house if you have children playing around.


Well, predators are oportunists and takes the animals they can catch. But statistically they take more weak and sick animals then they take healthy and strong ones, thus inproving the conditions of their prey. This also goes for the young animals, those who are well developed or quick have the greates chance to escape the predators. Also those who have the most vigilant and defending parents (mostly the mother) also stands the greatest chance of survival.

Hunting in itself is okey but we must limit it and we cannot just shoot off the predators because of fear, or because they happen to compete with us for some of the wild games of fields and forests.
And if they take livestock we for sure, as a society, can contribute to compensate those animal owners that are affected by wild predators. And the compensation shall be for wild predators, not for loose running dogs, such damage shall of course be paid by the dogs owners.



Edited by Carcharodon - 29 Jan 2010 at 17:38
Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2010 at 18:22
no one will exterminate neither wasps nor bears. hunting is not about exterminating animals. but they can exterminate each other and a very strong predator population can lead to exterminate each other. first they eat thier prey to extermination then they will die out. i had 11 roe deer which i have fed all the years like this year  with long cold winter with sacks of ceral . there is strong fox population and they are not living in my hunting  land and i can't hunt them. 10 years later only 3 roe deer have left. why.not because of  me hunting. i have only killed 2 bucks during that period. hunting is not just take a rifle and go to the forest and kill a deer each year. the most part of it is watching the nature and being concern about wildlife. i beleive in sweden we have a very nice and well informed hunting  community. no one is allowed going hunting without theoritical(many books about wildlife and echosystem) and shooting examination and deep knowledge about wildlife is needed to get hunting diplom.  lynx needs 50-60 roe deer to kill yearly and the lowest statistic about lynx is 1500 .= 50-60X1500=75000-90 000 deer and all of them are not sick and weak otherwise we have a very sick  deer population which suffering from epidemical diseaseDisapprove if the predators keep on being protected from hunting it would be a matter of time when there would be shortage of prey of cours there plenty of nice fat humans are lef for bears and wolvesBig smile

Edited by kalhor - 29 Jan 2010 at 18:28
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2010 at 06:45

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

no one will exterminate neither wasps nor bears. hunting is not about exterminating animals. but they can exterminate each other and a very strong predator population can lead to exterminate each other. first they eat thier prey to extermination then they will die out. i had 11 roe deer which i have fed all the years like this year  with long cold winter with sacks of ceral . there is strong fox population and they are not living in my hunting  land and i can't hunt them. 10 years later only 3 roe deer have left. why.not because of  me hunting. i have only killed 2 bucks during that period. hunting is not just take a rifle and go to the forest and kill a deer each year.

Wolves seldom exterminate its prey, as can be seen on Isle Royal, an island in the lake Superior  in the in US. There moose have lived since around 1900. In the 50s wolves came over to the island on the ice and established a population there. A balance was reached between wolves and moose which functions still today. The wolves do not exterminate the population of moose but keeps it healthy and sound and on its toes. Still this ecosystem is much simpler than the one we have here in Sweden where wolves have a much more varied range of prey to choose from, which put much less pressure on one specific kind of prey.

So mostly predators and prey can obtain a perfect balance left alone. It is only when humans come rampaging and disturbes the balance that we see big problems in nature with weakend populations, destroyed ecosystems and exterminations of species.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

...lynx needs 50-60 roe deer to kill yearly and the lowest statistic about lynx is 1500 .= 50-60X1500=75000-90 000 deer and all of them are not sick and weak otherwise we have a very sick  deer population which suffering from epidemical diseaseDisapprove if the predators keep on being protected from hunting it would be a matter of time when there would be shortage of prey of cours there plenty of nice fat humans are lef for bears and wolvesBig smile

Lynx have coexisted with roe and other animals for ages without exterminating them. And in many places where roe and other deer are not culled by predators they actually overgraze the nature, become weakend by starvation and affected by a lot of diseases. One can just see the diseases on moose in southern Sweden which is said to have these kind of  causes.

One can also see how the wapiti deer in Yellowstone, in the US, overgrazed its habitats and caused a lot of problems. Those problems dissapeared when one reintroduced the wolf into the park again.


Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2010 at 10:50
man has always hunted predators during the history they did it with trapps and bow and arrow before and now they hunt them with rifle which is a more human way (because it kill the animal without a lot of suffering)
.once the number of wolves was zero in sweden and moose and deer was in great number and thrived  too.
 in our modern society it is not easy to let predator population grow unlimited. 
many people are living in country side they have domestique animals and children too 
 for thier safty either we have to move the local population to big cities or give them right to defend their domestique animals and their own family .
 only past years 3 persons have been killed by bear in sweden. one was a man who was attacked in front of his cottage and two others were people wandring in forest.
 number of killed dogs in vermland is reaching 3 digit and more sheeps and rein deers have been killed too. when predators begin to attack humans it is sign of overpopulation or lack of food.
paying money for the sheeps or rein deer  even ok it is not enough , because no one can realy pay for your dog or family members.
i don't know why an newly introduced predator(wolves have been exterminated far ago in sweden) has more right  to live than the local population!!!
and it is a myth that predator can't exterminate their prey .
 it  has happened in many places and will happen again if the number of predators increase and they don't die of epidemical disease which they often do when they haven't enough to eat and get weak and sick themselves and epidemical disease floorish among them(the law of nature). 
a moose or roe deer can have only one or max 2 calf per year a wolf can have 6-7  cobs upp to twice per year and it is same for a lynx. with this ratio predator population increase much more rapidly than preys!!
we are not living in yellow stone sweden is a country with 9 million population .!!  if we want to see a sweden like yellow stone national park , then we should get rid of human populationBig smile
how many people are living in yellow stone???
we need to stabilish a ballance between human population and predators.
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2010 at 16:36

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  man has always hunted predators during the history they did it with trapps and bow and arrow before and now they hunt them with rifle which is a more human way (because it kill the animal without a lot of suffering)

.once the number of wolves was zero in sweden and moose and deer was in great number and thrived  too.


Well, in some parts of Sweden the moose got ill because they became too many, they overgrazed and many of them got weak out of lack of food.

If one take away predators their prey will of course increase their population to a certain limit, until the animals become to many and the populations finally crasches (or the animals emigrate if they can). This can of course be avoided by human hunting, but still you will not get as healthy populations as when wild predators do the culling.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  in our modern society it is not easy to let predator population grow unlimited. 

many people are living in country side they have domestique animals and children too 

 for thier safty either we have to move the local population to big cities or give them right to defend their domestique animals and their own family .


As I said there are other things that pose much worse threats to the children than predators. Every time they go out in the traffic they actually risk their lives. So the risk of being attacked by predators are rather small compared with all other dangers (including being attacked by loose running dogs).

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  only past years 3 persons have been killed by bear in sweden. one was a man who was attacked in front of his cottage and two others were people wandring in forest.

 number of killed dogs in vermland is reaching 3 digit and more sheeps and rein deers have been killed too. when predators begin to attack humans it is sign of overpopulation or lack of food.


The people that were attacked by bears were hunters with dogs. The bears were provoked, thats why they attacked.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 paying money for the sheeps or rein deer  even ok it is not enough , because no one can realy pay for your dog or family members.

If people watched their dogs and did not let them roam freely these dogs would not be killed by predators. Loose running dogs is a nuicanse since they actually kill many wild animals, and they also kill more livestock then wild predators, as I stated before.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  i don't know why an newly introduced predator(wolves have been exterminated far ago in sweden) has more right  to live than the local population!!!

Both have the right to live here. Wolves are a natural part of our fauna and they have lived here for more than 10 000 years. Its not a recently introduced species.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  and it is a myth that predator can't exterminate their prey .

 it  has happened in many places and will happen again if the number of predators increase and they don't die of epidemical disease which they often do when they haven't enough to eat and get weak and sick themselves and epidemical disease floorish among them(the law of nature). 


Actually predators do not exterminate their prey. They can reduce its numbers, which will balance itself because then the predators numbers are also reduced or the predators start to eat other animals. If  the predators had exterminated all its prey than neither they or the prey would have been able to live side by side for thousands of years.

That predators should exterminate their prey is a myth upheld by greedy hunters who will keep their prey for themselves.

In fact the only predator that regularely exterminates other species is man.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  a moose or roe deer can have only one or max 2 calf per year a wolf can have 6-7  cobs upp to twice per year and it is same for a lynx. with this ratio predator population increase much more rapidly than preys!!

On Isle Royale the populations of moose and wolf balances each other very good and have done so for many years, still they live on a limited space, surrounded by water. And the wolves have not many other animals of prey (just some occasional beaver or hares) to eat so most of their diet consists of moose. Still the moose are not exterminated. And in other places where there are more different species for the predators to choose from the risk that predators exterminate their prey is of course much smaller.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  we need to stabilish a ballance between human population and predators.


Yes, we need, but Sweden can harbour much more of the big predators (especially wolves, lynx and wolverine) than now.



Edited by Carcharodon - 30 Jan 2010 at 16:46
Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2010 at 20:21
if walking in the forest or living in country side is provaction to predators, then we should keep overseleves in big cities and around the hot stove all our life to not provoc bears or wolves.
yes in  some african countries the lion population can be very useful when millions of antilopes exist,but even there the governements arrange culling of predators in order to make a ballance.
comparing sweden with isl royal is not quit the same. in isl royal the people of  mostly scandinavian originShocked were  removed from the island to build a national park.
do you want to remove scandinavian people of sweden Cry from sweden  for making the whole country  to a national parkBig smile there predator and prey can live in harmony??
in my humble opinion it is better that we find an acceptable  soloution for predator problem in sweden instead of being sentimental . there are many national parks in sweden there hunting is forbiden and it is absolutely right and nice , but having  hungry bears or a wolf pack at your next door on country side is another matter.
after all deers are fortunated herbivores living in freedom and have  much better life condition unlike domestical pigs and chickens living a miserable life for being food to us all. hunting a deer for food is more ethical than buying meat from shop.
the actual wolf population is not original from sweden from the bigining some individues have been brought in and due to  the narrow breeding they are doomed ,because of inbreeding and nothing is natural with that.for that matter the governement shall import 20 wolves from russia to save them from extintion caused by inbreeding!!
hunting is a tradition from beginig of our humanity which is very unfair attacked by people with very limited knowledge about wildlife and very little interest for outdoor.
the organisaion for protect of nature the naturvaardverket(composed of many wildlife experts) had studied this problem and found that some predator hunting is needed then according to them we don't need a larger number predators in sweden.


Edited by kalhor - 30 Jan 2010 at 20:42
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 00:38
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

if walking in the forest or living in country side is provaction to predators, then we should keep overseleves in big cities and around the hot stove all our life to not provoc bears or wolves.


In many countries people have coexisted with bears and wolves without any big problems for millennia.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

yes in  some african countries the lion population can be very useful when millions of antilopes exist,but even there the governements arrange culling of predators in order to make a ballance.

Humans do not have to interfer in the relations between predators and their prey, that can nature itself handle and have done so for millions of years. The culling of predators is mostly due to problems between humans and those predators, or when humans have narrowed down the life space for the animals in an abnormal way.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

comparing sweden with isl royal is not quit the same. in isl royal the people of  mostly scandinavian originShocked were  removed from the island to build a national park.

do you want to remove scandinavian people of sweden Cry from sweden  for making the whole country  to a national parkBig smile there predator and prey can live in harmony??


I took the example of Isle Royal as an example that even on a very limited area can predators and their prey coexist without the predators exterminating their prey. On much larger areas and with a much larger variety of prey to choose from the risk that the predators will exterminate their prey is of course much smaller.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

in my humble opinion it is better that we find an acceptable  soloution for predator problem in sweden instead of being sentimental . there are many national parks in sweden there hunting is forbiden and it is absolutely right and nice , but having  hungry bears or a wolf pack at your next door on country side is another matter.

Sweden is a big and rich country and it can surely handle more predators than we have today. Especially the populations of wolf and wolverine have to be larger if one shall uphold liable populations of these animals and preserve some balance.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

the actual wolf population is not original from sweden from the bigining some individues have been brought in and due to  the narrow breeding they are doomed ,because of inbreeding and nothing is natural with that.for that matter the governement shall import 20 wolves from russia to save them from extintion caused by inbreeding!!

Its just a myth that wolves have been brought here. The wolves we have today is a result of immigration from the Finland Russian population that entered Sweden from North and also from West after they also had entered Norway. The Scandinavian wolves we had before were a part of a larger Russian/Fennoscandinavian population, ie it was the same wolves. But due to different circumstances the recent population descend from rather few individuals, thus the problems with inbreeding. Some more wolves from the larger population in the east should solve that problem, which is something that the government now contemplate.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

hunting is a tradition from beginig of our humanity which is very unfair attacked by people with very limited knowledge about wildlife and very little interest for outdoor. 

the organisaion for protect of nature the naturvaardverket(composed of many wildlife experts) had studied this problem and found that some predator hunting is needed then according to them we don't need a larger number predators in sweden.


Well, hunting is an old tradtion but unfortunately hunting have contributed to the demise and extermination of a lot of animal species around the world. So hunting should be very restricted so it do not lead to destruction of animal populations.

And several researchers actually say that especially wolves and wolverines are threatened in our country and that their numbers have to increase so their populations will be less vulnerable.


Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 09:57

1-Well, hunting is an old tradtion but unfortunately hunting have contributed to the demise and extermination of a lot of animal species around the world. So hunting should be very restricted so it do not lead to destruction of animal populations.

And several researchers actually say that especially wolves and wolverines are threatened in our country and that their numbers have to increase so their populations .........................


in sweden hunting is very well regulated and have been done in many years and result is abondance of all kind of deers  moose, roe,and red deer.then there is no risk to exterminate them by well  studied and well regulated  hunting.
 indeed the deer population have increased all the time and it is not to be compared to bush meat hunting in poor countries which may result the extinction of some animals.
having some wolve and wolverine is not a problem, but letting the the predator population to increase without a limitation is surely a problem.
 indeed SAAMI people in northern sweden  are already  realy angry about damage done to their caribous by wolverines.
well     being a rich country dosen't mean to spend the meat resources by bringing in more predators!!to eat the deers.
in northern sweden many people relay on meat from traditional moose hunting and creating job is a big problem due to lack of roads or large distances between settlements.
 that means take the (food) deers from them and giving to imported wolverines and wolvesSmile.
sorry to say you sound like  miljo-partist . they are  usually more concerned about animals than humansUnhappy.
 i curs WALT DISNEY that created BAMBI such a nice and wise and eloquent deer  more wiser than average humansBig smile. surely BAMBI is more lovely than average peopleApprove
dear friend Bambi dosen't exist but there are both humans and beasts are existing  here and we need a well studied  regulation for this coexistance not  only feelings.
 we can't transform Sweden to ISL- ROYAL national park there every humans are been forced to move out for giving place to animals.


Edited by kalhor - 31 Jan 2010 at 10:03
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 11:04

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:


in sweden hunting is very well regulated and have been done in many years and result is abondance of all kind of deers  moose, roe,and red deer.then there is no risk to exterminate them by well  studied and well regulated  hunting.


Yes Sweden  has today a fairly well regulated hunting, in opposite of old times when we nearly exterminated all roedeer, red deer, moose and some others. The beaver we totally exterminated and had to reintroduce again. Many of the regulations we have today is due to work of researchers, politicians and members of different environmental organisations. If it were up to some hunters there would still be a lot more shooting going on in our woods. Still today hunting of some species like woodcocks are very much discussed, where researchers and environmentalists think that they are overhunted.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 indeed the deer population have increased all the time and it is not to be compared to bush meat hunting in poor countries which may result the extinction of some animals.

having some wolve and wolverine is not a problem, but letting the the predator population to increase without a limitation is surely a problem.

 indeed SAAMI people in northern sweden  are already  realy angry about damage done to their caribous by wolverines.


Noone talks about totally unlimited numbers of predators. But many researchers agree that both wolves and wolverines ought to have higher numbers to make their populations enough viable and strong.

The problems with reindeer and other livestock could be solved by increased levels of compensation.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

well     being a rich country dosen't mean to spend the meat resources by bringing in more predators!!to eat the deers.

in northern sweden many people relay on meat from traditional moose hunting and creating job is a big problem due to lack of roads or large distances between settlements.

 that means take the (food) deers from them and giving to imported wolverines and wolvesSmile.

sorry to say you sound like  miljo-partist . they are  usually more concerned about animals than humansUnhappy.


Well, there is plenty of moose in todays Sweden so some culling by predators would not mean that people should starve. The moose and roe deer populations are large enough to support both predators and humans. And if one will have healthy populations of these animals then one should be grateful that the predators helps in culling out the weak and sick animals, something they are much better in than human hunters (for example if some moose and deer have some infection, like jaw necrosis, or other disease wolves can actually feel the scent of that and home in on that particular animal, knowing that such an animal is weakened and thus easier to catch). Healthy populations of prey animals actually favors both humans and predators.

And once again wolves and wolverines are NOT imported, they are a natural part of the fauna that lived here since the last ice age!! The wolves we have today have immigrated in a natural way from the fennoscandinavian/russian motherpopulation to which Swedish wolves always belonged.

By the way, many hunters shoot animals and keeps the meat to themselves and many non hunters never see that meat. Still also non hunters pay tax to uphold natural conservation and viable populations of moose, deer and others. The hunters just pay a license and a small fee for a moose and then they can feast on meat that actualy is a common resource for all of us and that we also pay for. So we cannot leave the decisions to those hunters that taps a natural resource that we all own.



Edited by Carcharodon - 31 Jan 2010 at 11:22
Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 12:00
as i said before i have nothing against predators . they have right to exist, but unlimited growth of predator population is the problem.
it is a myth that the predators only take the weaks and sicks . they take what is easier to take and nothing is easier than new  born deers and it is not healthy at all for regeneration of deer population.
for the tax payers well  we all pay taxes from our wages and then a variety of different taxes too . hunters have to pay a fee for hunting licens which cover the research and wildlife preservation activities, beside that  a hunter have to buy a  good rifle at least in our days 10,000 krowns investment + a box of  20 round ammo from Norma costs around 600 krowns(it is a wage of a worker in poor countries) and have to go hunting many days each year in order to get a deer or two. sorry you get no free  meat from usBig smile.
you are welcome if you want venison then you have first get your theoritical wildlife examination(and study how the predators choose their prey in reality) + shooting examination to show you are able to kill a deer with a well placed shot in standing and runing targets and you don't wound a dozen in order to kill oneWink then you need to pay for hunting land 
. it is cheaper in governement owned forest , but can be horribly expensive in private owned lands. after that you are welcome to join hunting community and eat nice and clean venison from animals with right to be free in the forest unlike domestical poor animals full of chemical rests of both antibiotics and  herbicid in their cultivated food which suffer of being in jail all their life to become meat for consumers.
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 12:59

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  as i said before i have nothing against predators . they have right to exist, but unlimited growth of predator population is the problem.

it is a myth that the predators only take the weaks and sicks . they take what is easier to take and nothing is easier than new  born deers and it is not healthy at all for regeneration of deer population.


Not a myth at all. Most scientific studies show that a high percentage of the prey that are taken by the big predators are weakened in some way. It is actually quite understandable, the weak and the sick are those animals that are most easy to catch. For example wolves chase after around 10 to 15 (and sometimes more) moose for every moose they seriously attack. And those they really attack are those who show signs of weakness when chased. So its not a myth, it is a well known fact among us who follow this kind of research.

Even with new born deer, its easier to take those whos mother are weakened and can not defend them. Also those who are sick in any way (which predators can easily smell, in contrast to healthy deer calves which are more or less without scent the first time after they are born) or who are not camouflaged enough are easier to take.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  for the tax payers well  we all pay taxes from our wages and then a variety of different taxes too . hunters have to pay a fee for hunting licens which cover the research and wildlife preservation activities, beside that  a hunter have to buy a  good rifle at least in our days 10,000 krowns investment + a box of  20 round ammo from Norma costs around 600 krowns(it is a wage of a worker in poor countries) and have to go hunting many days each year in order to get a deer or two. sorry you get no free  meat from usBig smile.

Noone forces anyone to buy expensive rifles and other equipment, it is an expense they choose themselves.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 you are welcome if you want venison then you have first get your theoritical wildlife examination(and study how the predators choose their prey in reality) + shooting examination to show you are able to kill a deer with a well placed shot in standing and runing targets and you don't wound a dozen in order to kill oneWink then you need to pay for hunting land 

. it is cheaper in governement owned forest , but can be horribly expensive in private owned lands. after that you are welcome to join hunting community and eat nice and clean venison from animals with right to be free in the forest unlike domestical poor animals full of chemical rests of both antibiotics and  herbicid in their cultivated food which suffer of being in jail all their life to become meat for consumers.


Many hunters are also landowners with their own land. And if people want to pay high fees just to kill some animals its their own fault, noone forces them. An alternative would be that the state hired hunters that culled the populations of moose, deer and others. Then the meat could be sold and the revenues would go to conservation and preservation of nature.

Most people are actually paying tax for roe deer, moose and others whos meat they never get the oportunity to taste. And too large populations of these animals also cost millions in destroyed trees and forests, not to talk about all accidents where these animals are involved, something that hunters do not pay for (at least not more than most other tax payers).




Edited by Carcharodon - 31 Jan 2010 at 13:11
Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 13:24
until now in those country there hunting has been regulated by governemnts the game situation has been a real catastrophe and  many species have been extinct too. 
.it would not be better if hunting is done by governement hired cullers instead of hunters which care for nature.
 a nearly 500 000  hunter community in sweden  which  cares and  pays for wildlife studies and  preservation activities  have shown an excellent result here in sweden we have a very rich nature compared to many other countries.
buying a  good rifle is needed for a sure and human kill better rifle you own better chance you have to make a sure kill.
 i am not landowner and i hunt many of  my friends are not landowner and they hunt too
.hunting is a kind of sport which promote wildlife if it is done by  responsible hunters with good hunting ethic and good hunting education.
a pair of good jogging shoes can cost a couple of 1000 krowns too and riding horse or playing golf is far more expenive than hunting and they don't give you a good venisonBig smile
if you like a sport then you need to make some spending.
do you want the fishers going to see with boats  and catching fish gave their fish free to you . because you are paying taxes!!!
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 13:39

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  until now in those country there hunting has been regulated by governemnts the game situation has been a real catastrophe and  many species have been extinct too. 

.it would not be better if hunting is done by governement hired cullers instead of hunters which care for nature.


That can be disputed. For example when the Soviet collapsed many reserves and parks were invaded by people who shot many of the wild animals there.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  a nearly 500 000  hunter community in sweden  which  cares and  pays for wildlife studies and  preservation activities  have shown an excellent result here in sweden we have a very rich nature compared to many other countries.

It could be better, and if not authorities and environmentalists had guarded those hunters many of them would indeed have shot more animals of all sorts, especially predators, big and small, but also many other animals that today are fully or partly protected.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  buying a  good rifle is needed for a sure and human kill better rifle you own better chance you have to make a sure kill.

 i am not landowner and i hunt many of  my friends are not landowner and they hunt too

.hunting is a kind of sport which promote wildlife if it is done by  responsible hunters with good hunting ethic and good hunting education.

a pair of good jogging shoes can cost a couple of 1000 krowns too and riding horse or playing golf is far more expenive than hunting and they don't give you a good venisonBig smile

if you like a sport then you need to make some spending.

do you want the fishers going to see with boats  and catching fish gave their fish free to you . because you are paying taxes!!


Well, much of the revenues of the buying of equipment for hunting goes to businessmen and not to preservation of nature. And as said its maybe better to give more responsibility to the state to guard and manage those resources that are to the benefit of all of us and not only to a privileged group of landowners, and some others. Noone owns the wild animals, it is a resource that belongs to us all, and ought to be managed by people who acts in the interest of all of us.    

And do not foget that there are actually many landowners and other hunters who sell moose and deer meat on the black market, which also is a way to widheld resources from us other.

The wildlife in our country is not the property of the hunters, it is something that belongs to us all, and we have all right to be involved in making the decisions about how to handle this resource and to decide what animals have the right to live in our fauna. Environmentalists and others that want to preserve a rich biodiversity in our country have the same right to decide what animals we shall have or not have in our fauna as farmers and hunters. Maybe more, since hunters and farmers are actually a minority.




Edited by Carcharodon - 31 Jan 2010 at 13:50
Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 17:29
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  until now in those country there hunting has been regulated by governemnts the game situation has been a real catastrophe and  many species have been extinct too. 

.it would not be better if hunting is done by governement hired cullers instead of hunters which care for nature.


That can be disputed. For example when the Soviet collapsed many reserves and parks were invaded by people who shot many of the wild animals there.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  a nearly 500 000  hunter community in sweden  which  cares and  pays for wildlife studies and  preservation activities  have shown an excellent result here in sweden we have a very rich nature compared to many other countries.

It could be better, and if not authorities and environmentalists had guarded those hunters many of them would indeed have shot more animals of all sorts, especially predators, big and small, but also many other animals that today are fully or partly protected.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  buying a  good rifle is needed for a sure and human kill better rifle you own better chance you have to make a sure kill.

 i am not landowner and i hunt many of  my friends are not landowner and they hunt too

.hunting is a kind of sport which promote wildlife if it is done by  responsible hunters with good hunting ethic and good hunting education.

a pair of good jogging shoes can cost a couple of 1000 krowns too and riding horse or playing golf is far more expenive than hunting and they don't give you a good venisonBig smile

if you like a sport then you need to make some spending.

do you want the fishers going to see with boats  and catching fish gave their fish free to you . because you are paying taxes!!


Well, much of the revenues of the buying of equipment for hunting goes to businessmen and not to preservation of nature. And as said its maybe better to give more responsibility to the state to guard and manage those resources that are to the benefit of all of us and not only to a privileged group of landowners, and some others. Noone owns the wild animals, it is a resource that belongs to us all, and ought to be managed by people who acts in the interest of all of us.    

And do not foget that there are actually many landowners and other hunters who sell moose and deer meat on the black market, which also is a way to widheld resources from us other.

The wildlife in our country is not the property of the hunters, it is something that belongs to us all, and we have all right to be involved in making the decisions about how to handle this resource and to decide what animals have the right to live in our fauna. Environmentalists and others that want to preserve a rich biodiversity in our country have the same right to decide what animals we shall have or not have in our fauna as farmers and hunters. Maybe more, since hunters and farmers are actually a minority.


son of Bavand
Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 18:13
brazil is a country with hugest rain forest in the world and still many species are indangered  despite hunting restrictions and forbidings not only soviet union to be blamed  anyway if the socialist system was good why russian reject it?on the old socialist system hunting where most exclusive to the PUMPS(political) not average workers or inhabitants of country side.
no wonder what happened when they got freedom and ordinary poor people could hunt for have food on the table for their familyErmm.the  soviet governement diden't do a lot for giving a decent life to their citizens.
what is wrong with the buisenessmen .
 well there are not only  few businessmen  benefiting of that all. there are  thousends of workers who make guns and ammo too they get their wage and make their living from that.
fish in the lakes are propretty of people too and for that matter fish is not free of charge!! you have to pay for buying it.
there are some deer meat on market which is expensive , but it is not black market in sweden.
 the price is high mainly because it takes more time and skill to hunt and skin a deer and meat is more expensive than mass produced meat from the farms.
(The wildlife in our country is not the property of the hunters, it is something that belongs to us all, and we have all right to be involved in making the decisions about how to handle this resource and to decide what animals have the right to live in our fauna. Environmentalists and others that want to preserve a rich biodiversity in our country have the same right to decide what animals we shall have or not have in our fauna as farmers and hunters. Maybe more, since hunters and farmers are actually a minority.)
of cours everybody have right to decide in a democratic way and it is why we are arguing about that.
 being properity of all the people dosen't mean to let the natural resources being eaten by imported predators. 
by the way  this winter i had to feed a few roe deer left  from foxes  around my house for many hundreds of  krowns of ceral  until now and winter is not over yet,otherwise they shall die of starvation, because everything is coverd by a very deep frosen snow. 
i don't beleive a city living guys  which do nothing for the deers have  the same right unless they come out with a 5 kilo sacks of ceral every day and feed the deers under the harsh cold winter time.if you don't feed your propereties they will die  of starvation unlike you do as  i do and thousends of other hunters do !!!
of cours defending the wildlife by words in the city is more easier than carrying a 5  kilo ceral  sack in minus 15-20 degree coldWink every day some time a couple of mounth per yearUnhappy BAMBI needs a lot of food  to survive the  harsh winter when it is cold out side !!!not a bunch of hungry imported predators!! and of cours they belong to all of us !
we see the things from different angle my friend.


Edited by kalhor - 31 Jan 2010 at 18:50
son of Bavand
Back to Top
drgonzaga View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Plus Ultra

Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 6262
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 18:14
Shades of Mowgli and adventure in the world of the esoteric!
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 20:35

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

brazil is a country with hugest rain forest in the world and still many species are indangered  despite hunting restrictions and forbidings not only soviet union to be blamed  anyway if the socialist system was good why russian reject it?on the old socialist system hunting where most exclusive to the PUMPS(political) not average workers or inhabitants of country side.

no wonder what happened when they got freedom and ordinary poor people could hunt for have food on the table for their familyErmm.the  soviet governement diden't do a lot for giving a decent life to their citizens.


Illegal hunting and deploration of natural resources is a problem in several different kind of political systems. Its about what laws one have, what means one have to secure that the laws are followed and the social and economic situation in a certain country at a certain time. There are many causes why the Russians rejected their communist system (which, by the way shall not be mistaken for the democratic socialism that for example the Swedish Social democrats and left wing parties proposes). But when it concerns illegal hunting (and many other forms of illegal activity) it actually increased after the fall of the Soviet union.

And when it concerns Brazil, we se there a capitalist system that  contribute to the  destruction of the forests, that have difficulties to stop wild exploitation of natural resourses, that see illegal logging on a grand scale, that see poaching and illegal fishing, and that see different kind of destruction of natural habitats that destroys the rainforest, threatens the biodiversity and also threatens to exterminate the cultures and the subsistence of the aboriginal peoples living in that forest (see for example the thread about the threat against the Xingu peoples:

http://www.allempires.net/forum/save-xingu-peoples-from-destruction_topic124000.html )

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

what is wrong with the buisenessmen .

 well there are not only  few businessmen  benefiting of that all. there are  thousends of workers who make guns and ammo too they get their wage and make their living from that.

fish in the lakes are propretty of people too and for that matter fish is not free of charge!! you have to pay for buying it.


Businessmen can be okey but they do not neccecarily contribute so much to increased biodiversity and a sustainable way to manage natural resources.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  being properity of all the people dosen't mean to let the natural resources being eaten by imported predators.

Once again wolves, lynx, wolverine, bear, golden eagle and others are not imported, they are a natural part of Swedish fauna. I do not know how the myth about imported predators arised, but it is surely not based on some truth.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

by the way  this winter i had to feed a few roe deer left  from foxes  around my house for many hundreds of  krowns of ceral  until now and winter is not over yet,otherwise they shall die of starvation, because everything is coverd by a very deep frosen snow. 

i don't beleive a city living guys  which do nothing for the deers have  the same right unless they come out with a 5 kilo sacks of ceral every day and feed the deers under the harsh cold winter time.if you don't feed your propereties they will die  of starvation unlike you do as  i do and thousends of other hunters do !!!

of cours defending the wildlife by words in the city is more easier than carrying a 5  kilo ceral  sack in minus 15-20 degree coldWink every day some time a couple of mounth per yearUnhappy BAMBI needs a lot of food  to survive the  harsh winter when it is cold out side !!!not a bunch of hungry imported predators!! and of cours they belong to all of us !

we see the things from different angle my friend.


Well, starvation is not nice and it is nice that some people feed the animals. But the city guy still have payed taxes for the management and preservation of nature, that can be done in many ways, among others to instigate laws that protects some species against overhunting, laws that institute reserves and parks where animals can breed (which of course will benefit hunters outside the reserve who shoot animals that migrate from these places) and a lot of other measurements that creates a rich biodiversity. So in that way this guy can have done precisely as much, or more,  to help the wildlife as you when you give some roedeer food. And is the guy in the town also politically active or active in some environmental association that helps out in managing our nature then he actually have the same right to an animal as you or anyone else.

By the way, all people who want to keep up a great biodiversity in our country (including strong, viable populations of predators) do not live in the city. For example the Swedish association for the protection of Nature (Svenska Naturskyddsforeningen) or the Swedish accosiation for predators (Svenska rovdjursforeningen) have many members also in smaller places and rural areas.

Many, many small places have local offices or chapters of these organisations, people that are doing a lot to help the wildlife to survive (yes, also laying out food for many kinds of animals, in all kind of weathers).

And please stop trying to forward the preposterous myth about imported predators.




Edited by Carcharodon - 31 Jan 2010 at 20:40
Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 21:11
i have been member of naturskyddsforening myself for many years and i believe to have a biodiversity too, but only laws and corrupted politicians will not keep thousends of deers alive not in sweden nor anywhere else but a 500 000 strong  commited  and welinformed hunting community  will do and it is why we have a such a nice deer population and biodiversity in sweden.
 well if we disregard the origin of wolves in sweden surely the 20 new wolves from russia are imported predators, but as i said before have no objection to that as far the local population at country side are not affected badly from them. as i said a good and limited predator population is nice to have.


Edited by kalhor - 31 Jan 2010 at 21:11
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2010 at 21:31
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

i have been member of naturskyddsforening myself for many years and i believe to have a biodiversity too, but only laws and corrupted politicians will not keep thousends of deers alive not in sweden nor anywhere else but a 500 000 strong  commited  and welinformed hunting community  will do and it is why we have a such a nice deer population and biodiversity in sweden.
 well if we disregard the origin of wolves in sweden surely the 20 new wolves from russia are imported predators, but as i said before have no objection to that as far the local population at country side are not affected badly from them. as i said a good and limited predator population is nice to have.


Many people in this country contributes to lending a helping hand to roedeer, moose, birds and other animals. Many engaged members of Naturskyddsforeningen and several other environmental organisations do a lot of job to forward biodiversity and also do a lot of practical job to help creating better circumstances for the wildlife (also including predators).
So the community of hunters can not take all the credit for managing our heritage of biodiversity, many other people are helping out with it too.
And about corrupt politicians. Several of them showed a corrupt behaviour when they let themselves be misguided by representants for the hunters to allow the hunt for the wolves. Several members of the parliament went to courses and shooting lessons arranged by the hunters organisation. Yes, even in the basement of our parliament there is a shooting range where some members of the parliament are training their ability to kill animals.
Also the hunters organisation said they wanted to support the idea of bringing in new wolves from Finland or Russia if the politicians allowed the killing of 27 wolves. After the wolves were killed the hunters organisations seem to have made a pudel (ie changed their minds) and are now not any more supporting the idea of 20 new wolves.
We may just see if we really will see the 20 more wolves or if the politicians maybe back down and let the interest of the hunters prevail.


Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2010 at 06:27
for the sure there are many honest and commited politicians and evironment activsts too, but still without coperation and understanding with local peoples and hunters nothing good could be done alone.
 i wish we have a good predator population to ensure the biodiversity, but hunters are not does bad guys  going around and shooting at every thing in the forest like it is shown on the movie and hate propaganda done by antihunting lobby.
they do a lot of job to preserv nature and to be able to hunt and enjoy the outdoor which is their bigest pasion.
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2010 at 09:33

 

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

for the sure there are many honest and commited politicians and evironment activsts too, but still without coperation and understanding with local peoples and hunters nothing good could be done alone.

 i wish we have a good predator population to ensure the biodiversity, but hunters are not does bad guys  going around and shooting at every thing in the forest like it is shown on the movie and hate propaganda done by antihunting lobby.

they do a lot of job to preserv nature and to be able to hunt and enjoy the outdoor which is their bigest pasion.

 

I think there are probably fanatics and unreasonable people on both sides in the debate about predators, and there are also good reasonable peoples. But it seems that this issue has an ability to stir up peoples minds.

 

By the way, about the green party (miljopartiet), here is a quote from spokesperson Maria Wetterstrand concerning the license hunt for wolves:

 


Quote   Green Party spokesperson Maria Wetterstrand writes today:

 I want a red-green predator policy abolishing license hunting of wolves. As long as the wolf population is less than what is considered long-term viability the hunt must be strictly regulated.

Now the last wolves were shot in the governments predatory policy experiments. I think the hunting of wolves that has been going since 2 January is the most dubious aspect of the Swedish predator management for decades. The decision to open up for the hunting of wolves is based on an intensive lobbying by hunters and a number of vocal wolf haters.
 

 

She also compares the wolf situation in Sweden with the situation in a couple of other countreis:

 

Quote As a comparison on can notice, that in Spain there are 2000 wolves and in Poland  around 1000. These countries are much more densely populated than Sweden.

 

http://www.sourze.se/Avskaffa_licensjakt_p%C3%A5_varg_10701493.asp

 
Maybe this issue also will be much discussed in the debates before the election.
 
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2010 at 09:46

Some people are also afraid that the issue with the wolf hunt will destroy Swedens reputation as a country where environmental issues are taken seriously:

Quote The Wolf Hunt Destroys Swedens reputation as an environmental country 

It is particularly noteworthy that Sweden has decided to initiate a hunt for endangered animals at 2010, the year the United Nations designated the International Year of Biodiversity.
 
Quote from Klaes Hjelm, Svenska Naturskyddsforeningen (Swedish Association for protection of the Nature).
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 01 Feb 2010 at 09:46
Back to Top
kalhor View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 06 Jan 2010
Location: sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2010 at 09:55
talking about extremists oh yes there are many extremist in both sides and mariaTongue is one of them. not a lot of hunters will discuss the hunting issue with people like her. 
 she would like to exterminate hunters and extinct the hunter community LOL for gaining her political ambitions and like her nice collegue in Gotland allow the cheifs of great company and friends to  build houses in forbiden protected areas to build a house at the places protected from building  just for protecting natureStern Smile there it is forbiden for the others to build houseWink. they do not qualify as  honest politicians too much nepostism and a lot of empty exagerated talks . 
just forget about miljöpartiet(SWEDISH GREEN PARTY) they have a great hunger for power and talk a lot of rubbish and false statistics only to come to power!!!like all of other green party in the world they bilieve in
( KILL AN INDIAN( HUNTER) SAVE A DEER)LOL


Edited by kalhor - 01 Feb 2010 at 10:47
son of Bavand
Back to Top
Carcharodon View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 04 May 2007
Location: Northern Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 4959
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2010 at 11:05
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

talking about extremists oh yes there are many extremist in both sides and mariaTongue is one of them. not a lot of hunters will discuss the hunting issue with people like her. 
 she would like to exterminate hunters and extinct the hunter community LOL for gaining her political ambitions and like her nice collegue in Gotland allow the cheifs of great company and friends to  build houses in forbiden protected areas to build a house at the places protected from building  just for protecting natureStern Smile there it is forbiden for the others to build houseWink. they do not qualify as  honest politicians too much nepostism and a lot of empty exagerated talks . 
just forget about miljöpartiet(SWEDISH GREEN PARTY) they have a great hunger for power and talk a lot of rubbish and false statistics only to come to power!!!like all of other green party in the world they bilieve in
( KILL AN INDIAN( HUNTER) SAVE A DEER)LOL
 
Of course your descrition of Maria Wetterstrand and the Green Party is extremely negative and exaggerated. The Green party do not want to exterminate any hunters or rural poulation. Instead they want a living countryside where all people can live and enjoy a rich biodiversity. They just do not want the countryside to be a reserve only for hunters.
 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.187 seconds.