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Shall we preserve wolves and other big predators?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 13:52
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:


carchardon
you mean all those dogs killed and eaten by wolves are dogs killed and eaten by other dogsTongue it is a new fenomena occuring only in swedenShocked and all those lambs kiled  and eaten by feral dogs?? why the wildlife experts visiting the place don't say that ???
you are not serious !! are you? and those horrible  blood thirsty hunters Big smile only shoot wolves and not feral dogs!! let them ruin their cattle!!!Wacko how many feral dogs have you seen in the forest???Shocked
come on for NATUR'S sake stop kiddingBig smile


I talked mostly about sheep and poultry. Loose running (not feral dogs, since the loose running dogs have owners, which unfortunately seem to be unable to control their dogs) actually is a greater danger for these livestock than wild predators.
I have myself experience of this and I know many others who have. For example I know one family that had chickens, ducks and geese for years. And at those occations some of these birds have been killed by animals it have mostly been by loose running dogs. These people did not have to involve any wildlife experts since it has been rather obvious how the birds died. And mostly they have settled it with the dogs owners directly without involving authorities or experts.

By the way here is an article from the province of Scania about the damage done to sheep by loose running dogs:

http://www.kristianstadsbladet.se/article/20091015/KRISTIANSTAD/710159815/1206/LASTWEEK

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 14:03
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  it is not about greed it is about feeling unsecure when your children are playing in the garden and a kilometer away your dog  is killed and eaten by wolves. don't tel me wolves have never eaten humans, because it is agreat rubbish .


Yes a wolf killed a couple of humans in the year 1821 here in Sweden. And that wolf was raised by people and had loosed its natural fear for humans. It was also a bad hunter who had difficulties to hunt its own food out in the wild.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  only few weeks ago a woman(she was a known singer) was killed by a pack of coyotes somewhere in america and news were on the international media and coyotes are much lesser than average wolves. if wolves can eat a moose  then they can kill humans too


Well, I was talking about Sweden here. I do not know the validity of the American case.

But if you shall go around and be afraid of animals that can kill you, then you have better to avoid wasps (they are the animals that kills most people every yar), avoid bulls (almost every year one can read about someone killed by a bull), avoid moose (recently a person got killed by a moose again here in Sweden), avoid ticks because they carry diseases that can kill you, and of course you must by all means avoid dogs, since every year a lot of people are injured by dogs. Now and then people are also killed by these our most beloved friends, as they are called.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  i would love to have wolves ,but i don't understand why can't we keep them inside national parks like the majority of civilised country in the world? may be it will not give an excuse to greens pretending defending wildlife to accuse the locals and hunters!!!
you said it costs to dart and bring back a wolf to a national park. well the governemnt pays a lot of damage  monety to the farmers loosing thier cattle . it isen't cheap either!!to pay hundreds of cases yearly !! and wildlife organisation beg a lot of money from people to save wild life. what happens to all the money collected from people for saving wild life???


The National parks are limited in their space, the wolves will not necessarily stay there and we have to preserve some natural balance and biodiversity also outside national parks. So also other places than national parks ought to have populations of predators.




Edited by Carcharodon - 02 Feb 2010 at 14:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 14:04
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


This is the decision of the NRV and supported by the people who live in the area. Exactly what right do you think YOU have to determine their lifestyle?


Well, it seems that hunters want to determine the lifestyle of most other peoples who live in rural areas, hindering them from enjoying the full diversity of Nature and making the forests unsafe with shooting and a lot of dogs running around everywhere. A few hunters destroy for many nature and wildlife lovers.


Enough with this bullcrap. The decision had widespread support among the majority, not only hunters - it is the citypeople who are whining and trying to teach those peasant rabble how they should run their neighbourhood. "Unsafe?" You've been watching Jaegarna too much.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 02 Feb 2010 at 14:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 14:09
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


Enough with this bullcrap. The decision had widespread support among the majority, not only hunters. "Unsafe?" You've been watching Jägarna too much.


There are actually many people in rural areas that are irritaded by the hunters shooting the animals that these peoples care for, letting dogs run loose everywhere and do alot of damage and trying to monopolise the debate about the managment of wildlife and natural resourses in these rural areas.
And much of the crazy decision about the wolf hunt is due to extrem lobbyism and twisting of facts by  the hunters organisations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 14:13
 i have not said that dogs can never kill domestical animals, but killing and eating another dogs is another matter. i have never heard about that. 
it happens even dogs attacking humans too and often they become killed by veternarians
.because no one want a dangerous dog with abnormal behavior and no one accuse the veterinary for greed or egoism for that.!! 
same  is true about predators too. normally they keep far from humans , but a few individue  are devloping abnormal behaviour , mostly because they are sick or unable to hunt wild games or find it much easier to hunt and  kill domestical animals or  even humans, like maneaters tigers in india or  lions in africa and they are very often dispatched by game wardens. and no cry of greens for that accusing locals or hunters for greed and egoism!!
.i don't know why when it happens the same thing in sweden and some locals kill a wolf attacking their sheeps . they become greedy and blood thirsty!!!


Edited by kalhor - 02 Feb 2010 at 14:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 14:41

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 i have not said that dogs can never kill domestical animals, but killing and eating another dogs is another matter. i have never heard about that. 

Well, I talked about other lifestock. When regarding dogs, if people did not let dogs run around everywhere they would not be any accidents with dogs being killed by predators, and not with dogs killing livestock and wild animals either. Maybe people could learn to put a leash on their dog.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 it happens even dogs attacking humans too and often they become killed by veternarians

.because no one want a dangerous dog with abnormal behavior and no one accuse the veterinary for greed or egoism for that.!! 


Hard to compare a veterinarion who do his job with hunters running around and killing endangered species out in the forests.

And if a wolf or bear should actually kill a person than that particular wolf or bear will of course also be killed. But one can not just shoot wolves because one is afraid that one of them perhaps will be dangerous sometime in the future. If one think so, one should also kill most big dogs since some of them can maybe one day kill or injure a human being.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 same  is true about predators too. normally they keep far from humans , but a few individue  are devloping abnormal behaviour , mostly because they are sick or unable to hunt wild games or find it much easier to hunt and  kill domestical animals or  even humans, like maneaters tigers in india or  lions in africa and they are very often dispatched by game wardens. and no cry of greens for that accusing locals or hunters for greed and egoism!!

.i don't know why when it happens the same thing in sweden and some locals kill a wolf attacking their sheeps . they become greedy and blood thirsty!!!


When concerns livestock killed by wolves one can get compensation for that, and these compensation could for sure also be improved. The state could also improve other measures to protect livestock from predtors (better fences and more). Its more a matter of the right political decisions.

And still, there are much higher risks in being killed or injured by bulls, moose, dogs, wasps, ticks, mosquitos and some other animals than by the big wild predators, at least in our country. But still one seldom hear hunters and wolf haters go on and on about that they do not dare to let their children go out because they can be killed by a moose.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 14:53
when if a wolf kill your children  are you going to take that money and thank for compensitation?  can you keep your children behind fences too?
hunting is highly regulated in sweden and there are hunting seasons and often it is very short period of time and hard regulations for that . 
nobody can run in the forest and shoot att evry thing  that moves. 
it happens only in your imagination and is purely bull-s---t. maybe seen in holywood movies.Angry
how many hunters have you seen runing in the forest and killing every thing moving in reality ?
in reality and not in movies made by anti - hunter non sens propaganda  often backed by greenies in great need of votes among ignorant young  people. which has nothing to do with reality!


Edited by kalhor - 02 Feb 2010 at 14:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 15:15

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

when if a wolf kill your children  are you going to take that money and thank for compensitation?  can you keep your children behind fences too?

hunting is highly regulated in sweden and there are hunting seasons and often it is very short period of time and hard regulations for that . 


Maybe next time a moose kill someone, the hunters organisationswho want a lot of moose in our woods will pay compensation? Maybe next time a dog kill a child,  hunters and dog friends and their organisations will pay?

And still there is a bigger risk that some of those animals will kill a child then a wolf will do it.

And by the way, if a roedeer in the mating season killed your child would you still feel like feeding these animals in the winter after that??

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 nobody can run in the forest and shoot att evry thing  that moves. 

it happens only in your imagination and is purely bull-s---t. maybe seen in holywood movies.Angry

how many hunters have you seen runing in the forest and killing every thing moving in reality ?

in reality and not in movies made by anti - hunter non sens propaganda  often backed by greenies in great need of votes among ignorant young  people. which has nothing to do with reality!


I have seen hunters kill a lot of different animals, moose, deer, fox, badger, grouse, phesants, hares, woodcocks, common snipe, pidgeons, ducks, geese, cormorants, capercaille, marten, weasel, lynx and many others. So indeed hunters kill many animals of many different kinds.

And still I can see the sad face of the woman who fed the hares that her hunting neighbours later shot as soon as any of these hares sat a paw on their land.



Edited by Carcharodon - 02 Feb 2010 at 15:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 15:18
By the way, here you can read about how the wolf hunt also effects tourism (which also supports people and contributes to the rural economy) in a negative way:

Wolf Hunt Devastating for Swedish Eco Tourism
http://www.swedishwire.com/business/2545-wold-hunt-devastating-for-eco-tourism-
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 15:41
EVERY HUNTER HAVE A QUETA OF HUNTING AND THEY CAN NOT HUNT MORE THAN THEIR OWN LICENS OR QUOTA  EACH YEAR.
 I HAVE HUNTED IN MORE THAN 50 YEARS AND NEVER SEEN SOME ONE RUNING IN THE FOREST AND KILLING EVERYTHING. it is absolutly lie and  non sens!!
abondance of deers with  a yearly quta of 100,000 moose and other fauna like bear which has grown from 600 to over 2000 individue in recent 20 years  is due to a vigilant and welleducated hunter community and result of excellent preservation their  respect for hunting laws and love and commitment to the wild life, not a  result of political oportunism of green party !!which only talks and do nothing rather than allegation and accusation of hunters.
yes indeed the propaganda made by  a bunch of people with  no responsability and extreme  political agenda has given result and  has damaged tourism too .
 it is not unusal that greenies are damaging  income sources  for the others  by a lot of cry and lies and  false  accusation and propaganda.
 they are against industry, because it is poluatingOuch. against farming,  against cattle rising  against  tourism .in their mind tourism is exploitation of nature and a bad thing tooLOL they have achieved their political goal by  making it worse for the tourism!
 they only thing they are not against is subisidise from the governement Wink and sitting and talking about saving nature and wild life , but darting a predator and sending them back to national parks is a dirty job Tongue and impossible!! susbidising cattle damegs from the pocket of tax payers is all rightWink



Edited by kalhor - 02 Feb 2010 at 16:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 15:47
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  EVERY HUNTER HAVE A QUETA OF HUNTING AND THEY CAN NOT HUNT MORE THAN THEIR OWN LICENS OR QUOTA  EACH YEAR.
 I HAVE HUNTED IN MORE THAN 50 YEARS AND NEVER SEEN SOME ONE RUNING IN THE FOREST AND KILLING EVERYTHING. it is absolutly lie and  non sens!!



Well, some of these quota is set by authorities and politicians that have been listening to much to the hunters organisations. Sometitimes there are more animals of certain species that is shot than most wild life researchers find good for upholding viable populations.

Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

yes indeed the propaganda made by  a bunch of people with  no responsability and extreme  political agenda has given result and  has damaged tourism too .
 it is not unusal that greenies are damaging  income sources  for the others  by a lot of cry and lies and  false  accusation and propaganda.
 they are against industry, because it is poluatingOuch. against farming,  against cattle rising  against  tourism .in their mind tourism is exploitation of nature and a bad thing tooLOL they have achieved their political goal by  making it worse for the tourism!


Most of the people you are talking about is not against a responsible management of natural resources. But they are opposing that greed shall govern the decisions and they are also opposing that small groups of very vocal hunters and farmers shall set the agenda for the life on the countryside.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 16:57
if the wildlife was saved by only talking and , then there had been no problem of extinction of animals on the earthLOL.
 talking is just air not an act, well everyone can say i am a wild life saver, if it was only talking needed for that
. most people i am talking against is people sitting in their armchair far from the reality and save the animals in cyber space and making  well paid political carriers by fals allegations against swedish hunter community..
sweden has one of  the most suceesful game management in the world .
 each year 100 000 mooses and twice that much other kinds of deer are hunted  here which is worth many 100s of  million dollars of income and thousends of tons of meat at the table.
  bear  population has  grown from only a few individue after the ww2 to over 2000s now.
 it was all done long before green party existed and they have nothing to do with this glory.
if the naturvardverket which has managed and regulate the hunting had done a wrong job , then we should have no deers left!!by now. naturally there are always some crimnal elements in every community and they are severly punished  by law.except politicians!!!like those of your party that telling some thing and doing something else. the gotland scandal is top is only the top of iceberg!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 17:24
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

if the wildlife was saved by only talking and , then there had been no problem of extinction of animals on the earthLOL.
 talking is just air not an act, well everyone can say i am a wild life saver, if it was only talking needed for that
. most people i am talking against is people sitting in their armchair far from the reality and save the animals in cyber space and making  well paid political carriers by fals allegations against swedish hunter community..


Well, many members in organisations like Svenska Naturskyddsforeningen, World Wildlife Found, Svenska Rovdjursforeningen, local protection groups for Nature and wildlife, and many many more, not to forget very many private persons that are maybe not members of any organisation, do a lot to help in preservation and management of the nature. People are feeding animals, they are building different nests (how man birdhouses have not been made and placed in trees by birdlovers), they are building different kind of shelters, dams and many more things in order to help animals survive and reproduce. And many of these people are also active in the debate about environmental issues. Others are working in silence but still contribute a lot.
Also others are contributing in form of gifts and money to environmental orgainisations.
So there are a lot of nature lovers and environmentalists who do not sit in their armchairs or get any money.

And I do not deny that there are also hunters who do a lot of good work, helping out in the preservation of nature and biodiversity. But unfortunately there are some very vocal ones that desroy their fellows reputation by acting rather paranoid when concerning certain animals, or craving that only they shall have the right to decide the fate of the animals in our woods.


Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

sweden has one of  the most suceesful game management in the world .
 each year 100 000 mooses and twice that much other kinds of deer are hunted  here which is worth many 100s of  million dollars of income and thousends of tons of meat at the table.
  bear  population has  grown from only a few individue after the ww2 to over 2000s now.
 it was all done long before green party existed and they have nothing to do with this glory.
if the naturvardverket which has managed and regulate the hunting had done a wrong job , then we should have no deers left!!by now. naturally there are always some crimnal elements in every community and they are severly punished  by law.except politicians!!!like those of your party that telling some thing and doing something else. the gotland scandal is top is only the top of iceberg!!


It is not only the hunters merit that we have many moose and deer, that we have reserves and viable populations of many birds and animals. It is also the merit of countless other interested and engaged citizens who love the wildlife and outdoors life and who have put up a tremendous effort to protect many species that once were threatened by overhunting. Sometimes this work of preservation has been against the will of many hunters, but some measurements have also had the support of hunters. But it is hard for the hunters and their organisations to take the credit for themselves when it concerns the management of Swedish wildlife. Many people have contributed to that and still do today.



Edited by Carcharodon - 02 Feb 2010 at 18:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 2010 at 20:32
 you are accusing  hundreds of thousednds of hunters to shoot at every thing moving in the forest ,if they have killed everything moving in the forest  like your hunters friend from green party do which you have seen  doing that, then we haden't left some deers after a short time
  we have a avery well disiplined and well informed hunters community which do the most of wild life preservation  work at place feeding deers in winter making it possible for both hunters and predators  like bears and wolves  thrive and increase in number
. killing a few  wolves which have  developed an abnormal behaviour of attacking domestical animal is all you need to  create great headlines  for political use and abuse. 
this manner is far from resposabilty and political honesty very typical to GREEN party and other populist political parties.
the verbal wild life preservation of people like you and   from your party has only lead to missunderstanding and spreading lies about  hunter communiy  and naturvardverket which have worked years to build a such a good wild game  population in sweden..
what you are saying is political replics without real substances only good to fish votes among city people which loves to verbaly preserv wild life and know very little about wildlife and preservation Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 09:30
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

 you are accusing  hundreds of thousednds of hunters to shoot at every thing moving in the forest ,if they have killed everything moving in the forest  like your hunters friend from green party do which you have seen  doing that, then we haden't left some deers after a short time
 
I do not say that all hunters shoot on everything, but some hunters I think are somewhat too trigger happy. And we are very lucky that many animal and nature lovers, environmentalists and similar through the years has fought for the preservation of threatened animals otherwise maybe the most triggerhappy among the hunters had shot those animals too. One shall not forget that it was undiscriminated hunting that made several species endangered in the first place.
And still today it is environmentalists and nature lovers that stand between some animals (like wolves) and the shotguns of the hunters.
 
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

  we have a avery well disiplined and well informed hunters community which do the most of wild life preservation  work at place feeding deers in winter making it possible for both hunters and predators  like bears and wolves  thrive and increase in number
. killing a few  wolves which have  developed an abnormal behaviour of attacking domestical animal is all you need to  create great headlines  for political use and abuse. 
 
To hunt an animal species that in our country are as vulnerable as the wolf is hardly well informed, disciplined or responsible. Those 12 000 who filed for a license to kill 27 wolves instead showed a very uninformed and unresponsible behaviour.
 
By the way, here you can read about several prominent wildlife researchers who also do not think that the licence hunt for wolves were handled in any responsible way:
 
 


Edited by Carcharodon - 03 Feb 2010 at 11:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 12:20
all the hunters are not god's best child , but it is a huge difference between hunters and poachers and criminals killing  a lot of games without licens and a few extremists. 
i myself as a hunter wish to have wolves in sweden and even in greater number, but placed in the places where they can not harm local population like inside national parks.
 if a great number of hunter  has seeked for licens shows there are a great resistance  against wolves among people who rise cattle or hunters their hunting dog or pet dog have been killed by wolf  it happens hundreds of caese  per year and  many years!!and they haven't even been able to defend thier pet dogs or cattle , because wolf were protected by law  and  they have respected the law and diden't kill the wolves!!
if the hunters seek licens it means they respect the law and they don't kill the wolves without permission of  naturvardverket  (wildlife protection organisation) and this year the expert has said it is time to cull some wolves in area where they make damage to cattle and dogs and given permission for hunting a few  wolves.
 the problem of inbreeding can not be solved by not hunting these wolves which ha as already a  very narrow  breeding back ground are in need of new blood and why it is talk to hunt 20 and  import 20 wolves from russia  for giving a new chance to the wolf population.but anti hunter lobby had made a great head line of that without even knowing the option of import of 20 new wolves..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 12:39
Originally posted by kalhor kalhor wrote:

all the hunters are not god's best child , but it is a huge difference between hunters and poachers and criminals killing  a lot of games without licens and a few extremists. 
i myself as a hunter wish to have wolves in sweden and even in greater number, but placed in the places where they can not harm local population like inside national parks.
 if a great number of hunter  has seeked for licens shows there are a great resistance  against wolves among people who rise cattle or hunters their hunting dog or pet dog have been killed by wolf  it happens hundreds of caese  per year and  many years!!and they haven't even been able to defend thier pet dogs or cattle , because wolf were protected by law  and  they have respected the law and diden't kill the wolves!!
if the hunters seek licens it means they respect the law and they don't kill the wolves without permission of  naturvardverket  (wildlife protection organisation) and this year the expert has said it is time to cull some wolves in area where they make damage to cattle and dogs and given permission for hunting a few  wolves.
 the problem of inbreeding can not be solved by not hunting these wolves which ha as already a  very narrow  breeding back ground are in need of new blood and why it is talk to hunt 20 and  import 20 wolves from russia  for giving a new chance to the wolf population.but anti hunter lobby had made a great head line of that without even knowing the option of import of 20 new wolves..

 
Well, in this case one maybe cannot blame only the hunters. The ones really to blame is of course the politicians (including Anders Carlgren) who in the first place allowed this license hunting of wolves. It seems that these politicians had not listened enough to the concerns of the scientists and researchers but instead listened to much to vocal lobbyists.
But at the same time it is also up to hunters to try to keep up with the research about those animals they want to shoot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kalhor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 17:29
i agree about politicians they are good for not muchTongue and anders carlgren should  protected indangered speciesWink not dooming  them to deathLOL,. politician often do not  do what they are telling us to do. all the hunters are not wildlife expert or politician . we(hunters) do what the politicians and  wild life experts  let us  or tell us to do.despite that it is always we are to blame not them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2010 at 20:29
In the History of Conservation and the Conservation Movement, it was none other than the hunter and the sportsman that shaped the creation not only of national nature parks but also the proper management and conservation of species, particularly predators. Hence, these constant tirades over "hunting" are both tiresome and ill-informed.
 
Here is a chronology with respect to U.S. History:
 
 
The book to read:
 
John F. Reiger. American Sportsmen and the Origins of Conservation. New York: Winchester Press, 1975; reissued in 1986 by University of Oklahoma Press [Norman], and with a 3rd revised and expanded edition: Corvalis: Oregon State University Press, 2001.
 
So all of these wolf-calls, yapping, and howling over Scandinavian canids only illustrates just how backward Sweden is with regard not only to the ecology of its parks but in the formation of cohesive and correct policies. All of this nittering over hunters and wolves indicate little other than a realization that criticism must be levelled internally and actually has little to do with the mischaracterization of hunters as gun-happy snarks preying on ecological predators. The simple fact here is that most Swedish parks have little to do with natural ecology and conservation but instead are little more than scenic adventures for photographers and tourist brochures!


Edited by drgonzaga - 04 Feb 2010 at 01:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 00:31
Train the wolves to attack the Greenies, problem solved. The world will be a better place for everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 10:29
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

[QUOTE=drgonzaga]In the History of Conservation and the Conservation Movement, it was none other than the hunter and the sportsman that shaped the creation not only of national nature parks but also the proper management and conservation of species, particularly predators. Hence, these constant tirades over "hunting" are both tiresome and ill-informed.
 
Here is a chronology with respect to U.S. History:
 
 
The book to read:
 
John F. Reiger. American Sportsmen and the Origins of Conservation. New York: Winchester Press, 1975; reissued in 1986 by University of Oklahoma Press [Norman], and with a 3rd revised and expanded edition: Corvalis: Oregon State University Press, 2001.
 
So all of these wolf-calls, yapping, and howling over Scandinavian canids only illustrates just how backward Sweden is with regard not only to the ecology of its parks but in the formation of cohesive and correct policies. All of this nittering over hunters and wolves indicate little other than a realization that criticism must be levelled internally and actually has little to do with the mischaracterization of hunters as gun-happy snarks preying on ecological predators. The simple fact here is that most Swedish parks have little to do with natural ecology and conservation but instead are little more than scenic adventures for photographers and tourist brochures!


Well, at least here in Sweden there were different hunters, some that had some responsibility and too many that had not. If all hunters would act really responsible and welll informed there would hardly be any need for a lot of protective laws and rules.

And  it was sure lucky for the US fauna that some hunters and others had some sense of responsibility and realized that conservation and regulation was needed. Otherwise the last buffalos and several other species would have gone the same way as the passenger pidgeon.

And the hysterical wolf hate among a part of the rural population of Sweden do indeed have deep and sometimes semisuperstitious roots, emanating from a time when the well being of livestock  many times were a matter of survival, and these animals were considered worth their weight in gold. This was eminent not only in Sweden but also in other parts of Europe.
This notion of livestock was something that Europeans brought to America, Australia and other places and it also there led to indiscriminate hunting of predators.

And even worse, it (combined with sheer greed) even led to the extermination of people who was thought of as being a threat to the farmers livestock (Tasmania and Patagonia are a couple of well known examples), besides occupying land that the Europeans thought they needed for themselves.




Edited by Carcharodon - 04 Feb 2010 at 11:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 10:40
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Train the wolves to attack the Greenies, problem solved. The world will be a better place for everything.


Better they eat those greedy capitalists that are destroying our earth and annihilating both nature and people.


Edited by Carcharodon - 04 Feb 2010 at 10:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 12:23
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


And the hysterical wolf hate among a part of the rural population of Sweden do indeed have deep and sometimes semisuperstitious roots...



What hate and superstition? I've never in my whole life met anyone who really hates wolves, let alone one who thinks they are incarnates of the devil or somesuch. You're really living in a bubble.

Quote
Better they eat those greedy capitalists that are destroying our earth and annihilating both nature and people.


Overpopulation is the one thing pushing the animals back, and that's hardly the fault of "capitalists". The only way to preserve nature is to encourage people to make less babies.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 04 Feb 2010 at 12:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 13:26
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


What hate and superstition? I've never in my whole life met anyone who really hates wolves, let alone one who thinks they are incarnates of the devil or somesuch. You're really living in a bubble.


Have you not followed the debate?? All those people who are so afraid of the wolf that if so one single wolf enter their parish or municipality they start screaming that they do not dare to let out their children and that the wolf will eat all their sheep. I have met several of these people myself, and even been present at a so called information meetings, arranged by hunters and farmers, where the hate against these animals were quite obvious.

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

  Overpopulation is the one thing pushing the animals back, and that's hardly the fault of "capitalists". The only way to preserve nature is to encourage people to make less babies.


Capitalists in many corners of our earth are exploiting natural resourses for profit, which many times destroys the living conditions for both animals and people.

Just take the extraction of oil in many places as an example, it feeds some greedy capitalists at the same time as it destroys valuable land and water resources. And that is just one example.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 13:47
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:



Have you not followed the debate?? All those people who are so afraid of the wolf that if so one single wolf enter their parish or municipality they start screaming that they do not dare to let out their children and that the wolf will eat all their sheep. I have met several of these people myself, and even been present at a so called information meetings, arranged by hunters and farmers, where the hate against these animals were quite obvious.


I wouldn't let my children or dogs out playing if there were wolves in the neighbourhood either, but that has nothing to do with hate or superstition. If there are wolves, or bears for that matter, around, you're a bloody fool if you let your children out to run around.


Quote

Capitalists in many corners of our earth are exploiting natural resourses for profit, which many times destroys the living conditions for both animals and people.

Just take the extraction of oil in many places as an example, it feeds some greedy capitalists at the same time as it destroys valuable land and water resources. And that is just one example.


"Greedy capitalists" again? Are you able to argue without parroting communist jargon? When it comes to destruction of natural environment greedy capitalists have a long way to go in order to catch up with the communists. And who do you think is buying the oil? Greedy capitalists too? As long as the populations are ever increasing we need more resources. It's very simple: more people -> less (wild) animals.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 04 Feb 2010 at 13:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 15:23
Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:


I wouldn't let my children or dogs out playing if there were wolves in the neighbourhood either, but that has nothing to do with hate or superstition. If there are wolves, or bears for that matter, around, you're a bloody fool if you let your children out to run around.


Still people let their children ride cars, let them go too school, let them walk along roads, let them play with dogs and do many, many other things that are proved to be much more dangerous then going out if there happen to be some wolf in the neighbourhood. The fear for wolves are really on the verge of sheer superstition, especially if compared with the real dangers that our children are exposed to in our society.

Originally posted by Styrbiorn Styrbiorn wrote:

  When it comes to destruction of natural environment greedy capitalists have a long way to go in order to catch up with the communists. And who do you think is buying the oil? Greedy capitalists too? As long as the populations are ever increasing we need more resources. It's very simple: more people -> less (wild) animals.


Greedy capitalists destroyed both nature and people even before there were any communist countries in the world. And capitalists are also good at creating artificial needs so people will go on buying their products at the expense of natural resourses and peoples health.



Edited by Carcharodon - 04 Feb 2010 at 15:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 17:00
What is this satire? The cant from Carcharadon borders on the absurd. The topic is wildlife, effective conservation, and realistic environmental management of parks and reserves. In all three respects Sweden has failed abominably and can not even come up with effective policy as did the neighboring Finns. Fear of wolves has nothing to do with superstition, they are pack animals and when you espy one others are not far behind so to equate their presence as a lesser danger than automobiles or the crossing of an intersection is patently absurd! Playing with "dogs" as a danger would make one think of the over-protective moms forever on hand with anti-bacterial wipes! Then there is the caricature of the "greedy" capitalist as a modern day Snidely Whiplash forever in cartoon villainy. He's obviously not witnessed what subsistance agriculturalists, of for that matter a herd of elephants can do to a stand of trees!
 
In fact, one must grasp that caricature does little to further either discussion or consideration of serious topics. Until the Swedish government actually embarks on practical policies for the shaping of habitat for its own wildlife and institutes domestic conservation policies, all of this wailing is little more than a procession of lemmings "gone wild". if the Poles can do it, why not those vaunted and enlightened Swedes:
 

Wolves in Poland

Wolf tracking in Poland

Eastern Poland is a great destination for seeing one of Europe's largest and rarest predators, the fabled wolf. But where do you head to and how do you get to see them? The wolves in Poland are located as mentioned in the east which is more sparsely populated and more specifically in the Polish national parks. The best chances for wolves in Poland are in Bialowieza, Biebrza and Bieszczady National Parks the former two in the north-east of the country some 3 hours from Warsaw. However, the true nature enthusiast should head down to Bieszczady Mountains, another national park which has the highest concentration of wolves in Europe with around 80 animals present in various packs in a relatively small area. Here the researchers often know of wolf pack locations and the woodlands and mountain top meadows are ideal for tracking this carnivore. We arrange an expert guide for you who will pick up on local news and help you with tracking wolves, the best times for wolf watching being late winter in February or March when the snows are diminishing but still present to show you their spoor and that other wildlife such as European bison, otters, beavers and bears.

The Bieszczady Mountains are around 3 hours from Krakow and accommodation is in comfortable pensions in isolated villages. For further information on wolves in Poland follow this link.



Edited by drgonzaga - 04 Feb 2010 at 17:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2010 at 17:32
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

What is this satire? The cant from Carcharadon borders on the absurd. The topic is wildlife, effective conservation, and realistic environmental management of parks and reserves. In all three respects Sweden has failed abominably and can not even come up with effective policy as did the neighboring Finns.


Can agree that the Swedish society has not succeeded especially well in the management of its wolves (and other big predators). And unfortunately many times the efforts to manage these animals in a responsible way are sabotaged by hunters, farmers and also their organisations.


Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Fear of wolves has nothing to do with superstition, they are pack animals and when you espy one others are not far behind so to equate their presence as a lesser danger than automobiles or the crossing of an intersection is patently absurd! Playing with "dogs" as a danger would make one think of the over-protective moms forever on hand with anti-bacterial wipes!


Of course the overexaggerated fear of wolves is on the verge of superstition when compared with the thousand and one more serious dangers that children are exposed to, without their parents are even thinking of it.

And also in comparison with the many cases of death and injury that children and adults suffer each year because of other animals (as wasps, moose, bulls, cows, dogs, and even mating bucks of deer) the danger of being eaten or even injured by wolves are minuscule

One can maybe just hope that Sweden will embrace some of learnings from Poland and learn to handle wolves and other big predators, and other wildlife, in a responible and sustainable way.

By the way, the Bialowieza forest that is mentioned in the article about Poland is also one of the few locations where one can see the European Bison, or Wisent, roaming around freely.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gruvawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 16:27
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Train the wolves to attack the Greenies, problem solved. The world will be a better place for everything.


Better they eat those greedy capitalists that are destroying our earth and annihilating both nature and people.


The greenies are easier prey nowadays, while they're outside shoveling the global warming off their driveways. Capitalists pay someone to shovel for them.


Edited by gruvawn - 13 Feb 2010 at 16:28
don't believe everything you think. : )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 17:19
Originally posted by gruvawn gruvawn wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Train the wolves to attack the Greenies, problem solved. The world will be a better place for everything.


Better they eat those greedy capitalists that are destroying our earth and annihilating both nature and people.


The greenies are easier prey nowadays, while they're outside shoveling the global warming off their driveways. Capitalists pay someone to shovel for them.


Well, maybe the greenies will change that.
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