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shootings and Herostratic Fame

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    Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 00:17
I think that most of the nihilistic shootings done in America today (predominantly in America, but some elsewhere with knife attacks) are similar to this:
(Grand Circle Small Ship Cruises presents,
Currents Newsletter vol 1 no 2)

"The Temple of Artemis was ultimately destroyed by the Goths in AD 262-  But they weren't the first to bring it down.  As the story goes a man named Herostratus, seeking fame at any cost, burned the temple to the ground in 356 BC in hope that his name would live on forever in association with his act-- giving us the concept of "Herostratic fame."  Though historians have since granted Herostratus' wish, Ephesian authorities attempted to thwart him by forbidding mention of his name under penalty of death.  The Temple was restored in 323 BC."

It seems like paying attention to these losers is exactly what they want, and therefore the best thing we could do is to not pay attention to them, forget about them, leave them for oblivion.  This wingeing or ringing of hands and gnashing of teeth, saying why, Lord, why? is exactly what they want.  Such behavior reward the media that pretends to serve the public good by promoting the disaster and the outcry of its response.

Am I wrong?  Are we making any progress on this issue, or are we at best only trying to cure the symptoms?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 00:35
franciscosan wrote
Quote Am I wrong?  Are we making any progress on this issue, or are we at best only trying to cure the symptoms?

1. No, I'd say that in some cases you're probably correct. But who would want to kill a large number of people knowing that they'd die either by the police or by the judiciary. A lunatic.

2. Psychiatrists would probably say that each case is different, and therefore symptomology and treatment are different. 

3. There's not much doubt in my mind that some of these killers see themselves as gaining almost immortality by their brutal actions, but again, are they really sane? I don't know. Would you say that Charles Manson is/was insane, or simply bad?

We've had a couple of mass shootings in Australia in the past sixty years or so, and I don't know if a reason has ever been attributed.




Edited by toyomotor - 16 Oct 2017 at 00:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 13:05
Have we seen this in human history? Herostratic's story tells us that the idea isn't new.

No progress that I can measure but isn't there always a tipping point?
The IRA were an aberrational evil when I was growing up. They were uncivilized and seemed to belong to a different age. Admittedly I am sort of surprised that they voluntarily laid down their arms. 

I know the IRA and mass shootings are not the same but I feel like I have viewed both as equally terrifying and impossible to understand.   

The tipping point may start when someone just drops one of these killers in a humiliating way before they get to hurt anyone. If tv has taught me anything it's that mass killers have huge egos. The image of themselves as 'gods' is irresistible to them.
One of these murdering bastards on tv, having failed might degrade that image and some of the fear.

The tv coverage won't stop. The families of victims in previous shootings might be able to change that if they voiced a serious objection publicly. If there could be an agreement regarding limiting the coverage it may take some incentive away for the killers. 

Did Herostratic have the same motivation as modern terrorists and mass killers? Is it all about their name and being infamous?
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Oct 2017 at 18:59
V

Quote The IRA were an aberrational evil when I was growing up. They were uncivilized and seemed to belong to a different age. Admittedly I am sort of surprised that they voluntarily laid down their arms. 

I know the IRA and mass shootings are not the same but I feel like I have viewed both as equally terrifying and impossible to understand.  

1. The Irish have been fighting for independence for nearly a thousand years. In this case, the saying that "One man's terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter" IMO, holds true. They were never uncivilised, the IRA, it's strategies and tactics were more often than not well thought out, but there came a time when wiser heads saw that Irish Freedom would be won by politics and diplomacy, rather than the force of arms.

The IRA never involved itself in mass shootings on the scale of those seen in the USA. It was at war with the UK, and mostly only targetted military personnel and members of opposing Protestant factions.

Erin Go Bragh!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 01:46
Terrorism is a strategy where a weaker force attacking a greater force, instead of attacking hard targets, like army barracks, or police stations, government buildings goes after soft targets because soft targets are vulnerable, whereas hard targets are (relatively speaking) not.  This also means that the attacks are more indirect, but for terrorists, there is no such thing as collateral damage.  The check-out girl is as "legitimate" a target as the army private, at least for hardened terrorists.

You know, the Aurora movie theatre shooter had a notebook with kind of a nihilistic manifesto in it, maybe that is not so far away from proclamations of the Red Army Faction, or the IRA, one is just more focused and a member of a (twisted) kind of community.  Some terrorist groups get kind of apocalyptic in their ideology.


I don't much know the story of how Great Britain pulled out of Ireland in general.  I am sure that it wasn't because they were nice guys, and I suspect that if they hadn't wanted to leave it would have been quite hard to uproot them.  But I guess, maybe that is part of the point, they were not rooted, except in Northern Ireland.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 03:53
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't much know the story of how Great Britain pulled out of Ireland in general.  I am sure that it wasn't because they were nice guys, and I suspect that if they hadn't wanted to leave it would have been quite hard to uproot them.  But I guess, maybe that is part of the point, they were not rooted, except in Northern Ireland.

England hasn't pulled out of Northern Ireland. The six counties are still part of the UK.

Militarily, the need for English troops has diminished since the Good Friday Agreement was signed. 

What has happened is that there is a greater element of self rule in Northern Ireland.

As for the Republic, the Easter Rising of 1916 was the beginning of the end of British rule. Through the Civil War, Declaration of the irish Free State in 1922 and eventually the Republic of Ireland Consitution was passed on December 28th 1937 .

Sooner or later, IMO, the six counties will be re-united with the Republic of Ireland, as they should be.

But, of course, this is all way off topic.Smile


Edited by toyomotor - 19 Oct 2017 at 01:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 21:32
But, the difference between Herostratic fame and what is happening now, is that in antiquity is was the Temple of Artemis that was destroyed, an affront to Artemis, the gods, and to Ephesus.  Whereas, today it is people that are killed, probably something that was less important in antiquity, and easier to do.

Maybe a modern equivalent would be the World Trade Center, dedicated to the great god Mammon??

The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.  The only one still standing is the Great Pyramid.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 01:35
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

But, the difference between Herostratic fame and what is happening now, is that in antiquity is was the Temple of Artemis that was destroyed, an affront to Artemis, the gods, and to Ephesus.  Whereas, today it is people that are killed, probably something that was less important in antiquity, and easier to do.

Maybe a modern equivalent would be the World Trade Center, dedicated to the great god Mammon??

The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.  The only one still standing is the Great Pyramid.


How about group herostratic fame, or more accurately, infamy?

ISIS will go down in history as the group responsible for the destruction of buildings and statues which were thousands of years old.

These should be War Crimes, but they won't be forgotten.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 02:44
I think the fact that they put a Jordanian pilot in a cage and burned him alive is worse.
One should write off the property damage and get on with life, emphasizing it as horrific,
is not only inaccurate, but feeds into future potential behavior.  Don't let it get under your skin.
There is actually a bonus to the destruction, archaeologist now can dig down deeper to find
out what was there before the previous ruins.

Of course of all religions, Islam is probably the most associated with a particular place.  If there is a war between cultures, (which there is not), it would seem that Islam is more vulnerable for destruction of places, than Christianity, or even Judaism is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Oct 2017 at 03:29
Quote One should write off the property damage and get on with life, emphasizing it as horrific,
is not only inaccurate, but feeds into future potential behavior.

To ignore the destruction and looting of antiquities is to simply erase them from future memory.

This should not happen.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2017 at 14:07
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

But, the difference between Herostratic fame and what is happening now, is that in antiquity is was the Temple of Artemis that was destroyed, an affront to Artemis, the gods, and to Ephesus.  Whereas, today it is people that are killed, probably something that was less important in antiquity, and easier to do.

Maybe a modern equivalent would be the World Trade Center, dedicated to the great god Mammon??

The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus was one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.  The only one still standing is the Great Pyramid.


How about group herostratic fame, or more accurately, infamy?

ISIS will go down in history as the group responsible for the destruction of buildings and statues which were thousands of years old.

These should be War Crimes, but they won't be forgotten.


Taliban, Mujaheddin and Allied bombers WW2.  Regrettable but the heinous murders cheapen life and that impacts future quality of life going forward. Consider the lack of concern from BLM. Do Jordanian Pilots and American Journalists matter?
The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 00:21
Vanuatu

The WW2 bombers didn't set out to deliberately bomb churches and other architectural monuments.

ISIS has deliberately destroyed buildings which were a part of world history.

ISIS TV footage of hacking off peoples heads with a knife, and then handing the head to a ten year old is simply beyond the pale.

How about consideration of ALM and the US Gun Laws?

Of course journalists and Jordanian pilots lives matter, but at least the latter has some appreciation of the fact that he/she's involved in a high speed technological battle with deadly consequences.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 14:31
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

The WW2 bombers didn't set out to deliberately bomb churches and other architectural monuments.

ISIS has deliberately destroyed buildings which were a part of world history.

ISIS TV footage of hacking off peoples heads with a knife, and then handing the head to a ten year old is simply beyond the pale.

How about consideration of ALM and the US Gun Laws?

Of course journalists and Jordanian pilots lives matter, but at least the latter has some appreciation of the fact that he/she's involved in a high speed technological battle with deadly consequences.



toyomotor, I'm no fan of ISIS but US military destroyed numerous ancient historical sites, not on purpose of course. WW2, Vietnam, Korea and on... some bombings were carried out regardless of a seventh century monastery in Italy. You know, if it had to be done it was done. Agree?

Yes Taliban, Al Qaeda purposely destroyed Buddhist artifacts. 

BLM does not care about world events unless they smear United States. The Jordanian pilot burned alive and James Foley the American reporter beheaded by ISIS bothers me much more. The lives that the public can watch go up in flames on youtube, are not important to urban anarchists. 

What does BLM do for starving people in US or in Africa? They want the end of the world scenario where they team up with jihadists to crush the white world, not to follow MLK's "Dream."

The people ISIS killed for the purpose of demonstrating to OBAMA that they are not the "JV" (junior varsity) team as OBAMA described them Yet we constantly hear about Trump provoking these psychos. 


Jan, 2014: It was in that context that Remnick asked about a possible resurgence of al-Qaeda. Here is what the transcript shows:

   Q:  You know where this is going, though. Even in the period that you’ve been on vacation in the last couple of weeks, in Iraq, in Syria, of course, in Africa, al-Qaeda is resurgent.

THE PRESIDENT:  Yes, but, David, I think the analogy we use around here sometimes, and I think is accurate, is if a JV team puts on Lakers uniforms, that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant. I think there is a distinction between the capacity and reach of a bin Laden and a network that is actively planning major terrorist plots against the homeland versus jihadists who are engaged in various local power struggles and disputes, often sectarian.

Q: But that JV team jus[t] took over Fallujah.


 


Edited by Vanuatu - 22 Oct 2017 at 14:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2017 at 22:38
When you bomb entire cities, which is what one could easily hit in WWII, your bound to get a few Churches and other institutions.  It is not that they intended to hit churches or schools or whatnot, it is that they didn't really care if they did or not.  That is different from "accidental" hits.

Monte Cassino?  I think that is the monastery in Italy.  I believe a German SS unit was dug in there, and it was that that the bombing was not very effectual in attacking them, but I am not sure it was all for nothing like some people think.

Countries get all self-righteous about archaeological sites, but when push comes to shove and one gets in the way of a dam (like Zeugma or Three Forks), kiss that archaeological site goodbye, even if the dam is a bad idea (like Zeugma in Turkey), because it is going to silt up and salt up the land.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2017 at 00:16
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:


toyomotor, I'm no fan of ISIS but US military destroyed numerous ancient historical sites, not on purpose of course. WW2, Vietnam, Korea and on... some bombings were carried out regardless of a seventh century monastery in Italy. You know, if it had to be done it was done. Agree?

Yes Taliban, Al Qaeda purposely destroyed Buddhist artifacts. 

BLM does not care about world events unless they smear United States. The Jordanian pilot burned alive and James Foley the American reporter beheaded by ISIS bothers me much more. The lives that the public can watch go up in flames on youtube, are not important to urban anarchists. 

What does BLM do for starving people in US or in Africa? They want the end of the world scenario where they team up with jihadists to crush the white world, not to follow MLK's "Dream."

The people ISIS killed for the purpose of demonstrating to OBAMA that they are not the "JV" (junior varsity) team as OBAMA described them Yet we constantly hear about Trump provoking these psychos. 


1. Yes, I agree. A good example would be the Benedictine Monastry of Monte Casino.

2. But many of the buildings, statues etc were Islamic.

3. Can't disagree. Their crimes are horrendous.

4. OK, but the reality is that the "white" world isn't doing enough either.

5. No, I don't agree that Trump has anything to do with it. In the eyes of the jihadists, their enemy is, basically, The Great Shaitan and it's allies.

But, for all of its egregious acts, ISIS is hardly attracting fame, rather vilification.


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