| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Should Germany bail out Greece?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


Should Germany bail out Greece?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
 Rating: Topic Rating: 1 Votes, Average 5.00  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2011
Location: Konstantiniyye
Status: Offline
Points: 919
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 2011 at 22:46
About gold standart... Sure, it will crush all debtors at once, almost all countries, most companies and people who had credit payments... That's why nobody wants it back. But every dream has an end. Debt & consumption economy has too.


Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 08 Nov 2011 at 22:47
the single postmodern virtue of obsessive egalitarianism
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2011 at 05:19
Originally posted by Harburs Harburs wrote:

No, let the Greeks taste what will happen when all cheat on their taxes. Ireland, Portugal and Spain should learn how to deal with the problem as well.
It's not particularly their problem.It's a problem for the institutions that will lose money (see their assets crumble) if Greece defaults. And it arose from their stupidity in assuming that Greek (and German, French, Italian, Irish....) debt was soveriegn debt, and rated as such. Much the same problem as rating securitised mortgages as triple A when they weren't.
 
Prudent banks would have built up reserves against a Greek default in the first place, through charging much higher interest rates than they did.
 
But Parnell is also right. The banks discarded prudence in favour of quick returns at low interest rates.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2011 at 05:26
Originally posted by Harburs Harburs wrote:

Al you are right about not letting Greece in first place, but what will happen if this bail out doesn't help the euro just like the other ones? The money will be funneled to a hole named Greece, and social unrest sparkles over Germany! Euro has to cut the infected organ otherwise the whole Europe will be in crisis very soon. (Greece should be let out of EU as an example)
The ECB has to create the euros necessary to settle the debts, thus making the debts in effect sovereign as they were assumed to be in the first place.
 
That of course means inflation of the euro, something that the European economy is crying out for, though not as much as the US economy isscreaming for inflation of the dollar.
 
Changes then need to be made to the system to prevent the same happening again, and it should take the form of overnments requiring ECB approval before being allowed to issue euro-denominated debt, and also requiring the ECB to guarantee any such approved debt.
 
The shame is that no-one thought through the consequences of allowing governments to borrow without limit in a currency they did not control.
 
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2011 at 05:32
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:


Oh, dear I always think of the Lydians and what they would think/do if they knew what their creation (money) would do to the world. Funny though, gamble seems also to have been invented in Lydia, at the same period. LOL It is also interesting that the first story telling us that happiness does not equate to money comes from Lydia as well, that is to say Croesus vs Solon about who is the happiest man in the world.

Well, problem is not money itself, problem is "fiat money" which has no real value. Almost all currencies at this time are fiat moneys. They are just paper. Their golden reserve backups are too weak. There is no gold enough to backup all money in the world.
Gold is no more intrinsically valuable than sugar or little pieces of paper with Washington's head on them. What's mopre it makes the whole economiy uncontrollable. I have never understood why anyone woudl want to return to the system that gave us the long depression of the late 19th century, and the great depression of 1929 on. Let alone the massive inflation of the 16th century, and the destruction of the Spanish economy thereafter. At least I don't understand why any historian would.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2011 at 05:41
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Yes, it is backed by goods and services. But there's far more money in market. Whoever has large funds he can easily suck value of money on your pocket. Total purchasing power of all money remains same. But some leechers costantly giving 10 times more credits than their real funds.
Under the gold standard the Fuggers and other bankers, certainly later and probably before, still used to lend out many times the amount of gold they had deposited with them.  Fractional reserve banking is completely independent of the money in use.
Quote
This virtual money cause devaluation, of course...
How the central bank (and the regulatory arm) handles it can lead to inflation or deflation. Since on the whole deflation is the prime enemy of a healthy economy, mostly one looks for inflation at a reasonable rate, higher in a bad situation like the US today.
 
Inflation is the essential method of redistributing wealth downward to balance the natural trend in society for power to accumulate in ever fewer hands.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2011
Location: Konstantiniyye
Status: Offline
Points: 919
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Nov 2011 at 05:49
Of course, gold's price itself also dependent on demand. We are all agreed gold is no longer suitable for its former role.
the single postmodern virtue of obsessive egalitarianism
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2011 at 01:17
Refleting on what I wrote yesterday, it was hasty of me to accept that the ECB printing euros to cover the debt would be inflationary (although it is in a sense true, and printing money is usually inflationary.
 
However the effect of a Greek default would be a substantial reduction in the (euro) money supply, resulting, unchecked, in deflationary problems, not least the lesser availability of credit in the market in general. Printing the money to satsify the debt would therefore nullify the drop in money supply, leaving it essentially unchanged.
 
 
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
Kaveh ye Ahangar

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Location: MidX,Engelistan
Status: Offline
Points: 12490
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Nov 2011 at 01:29
Oh there you are.  Was getting a bit worried...

Edited by Zagros - 12 Nov 2011 at 01:42
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
Back to Top
Buckskins View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 04:06
Quote

"Sorry paradigm but all the gold in the world isn't enough to back the Turkish Lira let alone the euro or the dollar."


That would surely depend on the price of gold. Oil will lose it's place in a country's security with the current technology and shale deposits. It appears the US will be totally self sufficient within 10 years. From what I understand the UK also has fairly large deposits of same. 
May you live as long as you want to,
and may you want to as long as you live.
Back to Top
Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2011
Location: Konstantiniyye
Status: Offline
Points: 919
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 05:08
Quote
"Sorry paradigm but all the gold in the world isn't enough to back the Turkish Lira let alone the euro or the dollar."
Actually this is partly invalid. Although still has some point. All gold in the worldworth more than 9 trillion dollars. Which accounts %15 money in the world. But it is not necessery to keep exact value of money as gold.

I only want limiting government intervention to economy. If I was an investor I would worry for government's ability to easily strip away half of my money just in one night via minting. It is simply robbery. Or you can call it indirect taxation, if you wish so Tongue


Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 07 Mar 2012 at 05:10
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 05:38
That's what the gold is worth at current prices (which I guess was what you were saying). If you are goiing to use gold as a standard, then its price has to be fixed (otherwise it can't be a standard). What price it is fixed at is totally arbitrary (and of course can be changed any time the governments involved want to change it), but it will have to be continuously increased to allow for growth in the economy.
 
With gold at a fixed price the more, say, hairdressers there are, essentially the less hairdresssers will be able to charge. Apply that to other sectors, and a fixed gold price leads inevitably to slump which it always has done except in the relaively rare instances of massive increases in gold supply, as in 16th century Europe, which leads to inflation and even hyperinflation.
 
That demands continual government interference in the market, which I thought was what people were trying to get away from.
 
That's one line of development of course. The alternative is fractional reserve banking - increasing the promises to pay in gold to far more than the actual gold available - which adjusts the money supply.
 
Under the gold standard money is not gold. Money then is the promise to pay gold. Money is always promises to pay, not matter what the debt is designated in.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 06:13
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Quote
"Sorry paradigm but all the gold in the world isn't enough to back the Turkish Lira let alone the euro or the dollar."
Actually this is partly invalid. Although still has some point. All gold in the worldworth more than 9 trillion dollars. Which accounts %15 money in the world. But it is not necessery to keep exact value of money as gold.

I only want limiting government intervention to economy. If I was an investor I would worry for government's ability to easily strip away half of my money just in one night via minting. It is simply robbery. Or you can call it indirect taxation, if you wish so Tongue
 
Graham's points are good but I will add a couple.
 
If by some magic the world overnight turns into a gold standard then gold will "discover" its price based on demand and will probably end up more or less worth the exact same value of the world economy.
 
But here is the thing. Money flow isn't static nor at a state of equilibrium. A country like the US will eventually literally run out of gold because it has constant trade deficits (causing deflation) while a country like China will have the exact oppositie situation causing massive inflation.
 
This was the dollar was floated back in 71 because the US ran out of gold.
 
Another issue concerns commodities themselves. Unlike in the 19th century and before when there was no universal commodity traded today we have several most importantly oil. Oil prices as valued by gold will sky rocket because the inflexibility coming from having gold (instead of a fiat currency) as your medium of exchange will force those countries to raise oil prices in markets and you will eventually end up with gold having the exact same problems as fiat with no fiat flexibility.
 
As for your note about inflation. Inflation is largely the responsibility of the government and its financial and monetary policies. However some countries like Turkey the government can have so much to do but to print more money.
 
Turkey has a gigantic trade and current account deficits exacerbated with IMF/World Bank loans and of course international banking loans. All these (especially the exchange rate depreciation) destroys the value of the Lira and the government is thus forced to simulate a default by printing more money for the purposes of mitigating the negative effects of the aforementioned episodes.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2011
Location: Konstantiniyye
Status: Offline
Points: 919
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 07:21
Thank you for your posts. I will keep learning from you. What I got from this is we are saying same things but we have different priorities. Most countries would ended up with bankruptcy if there was a gold standard. But wealth countinues to flow... What if one day USA decide to introduce a new currency called "slipper" and refuse to pay anything for their former currency? It would be ultimate joke, just think of it. Clown Maybe Chinese would be able to recover a few ounces of gold worth of it via recycling more than 3 trillion dollars of paper LOL

Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 07 Mar 2012 at 07:27
Back to Top
Buckskins View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 07:59
Dream on Jas. Our debt is in $.

 The United States Bullion Depository holds 4,577 metric tons (5046 tons) of gold bullion (147.2 million oz. troy). This is roughly 2.5% of all the gold ever refined throughout human history. Even so, the depository is second in the United States to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York's underground vault in Manhattan, which holds 7,000 metric tons (7716 tons) of gold bullion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bullion_Depository
May you live as long as you want to,
and may you want to as long as you live.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 10:06
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Dream on Jas. Our debt is in $.

 The United States Bullion Depository holds 4,577 metric tons (5046 tons) of gold bullion (147.2 million oz. troy). This is roughly 2.5% of all the gold ever refined throughout human history. Even so, the depository is second in the United States to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York's underground vault in Manhattan, which holds 7,000 metric tons (7716 tons) of gold bullion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bullion_Depository


I saw on life after people that it would be the only rement of human civilization millions of years after the fall of homio sapiens

2.5% of all of the gold in history oh god...

On a more serious note I really dont think the Germans have much choice , Markell is trying to pull everything together and is she lets the E.U members fall off the cliff again and again it will probably disintegrate, 
Back to Top
Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2011
Location: Konstantiniyye
Status: Offline
Points: 919
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 11:00
In Fallout series (which takes place at least 100 years aftermath collapse of civilisation after a two hours last nuclear war in 2077 between China and USA) Nuka Cola (Fallout universe coke) bottle caps used as currency. They are most valid currency in that series. Old paper dollars still worths, a pack of them worths 10 bottlecaps LOL Also Brotherhood of Steel had their own currency (paper money), but it's not valid outside of that faction. In last game (Fallout: New Vegas) New California Republic (paper money) and their nemesis Caesar's Legion (coins) had their own currencies too. But still bottlecaps were valid everywhere Tongue





Edited by Paradigm of Humanity - 07 Mar 2012 at 11:01
Back to Top
Buckskins View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 23:19

Quote Actually this is partly invalid. Although still has some point. All gold in the worldworth more than 9 trillion dollars. Which accounts %15 money in the world. But it is not necessery to keep exact value of money as gold.

I only want limiting government intervention to economy. If I was an investor I would worry for government's ability to easily strip away half of my money just in one night via minting. It is simply robbery. Or you can call it indirect taxation, if you wish so Tongue

Anyone without a major portion of gold in their portfolio is asking for trouble. I can see the EU falling apart in the next few years. There is trouble all over the globe at the moment. A worse situation than the great depression  is not out of the question.
May you live as long as you want to,
and may you want to as long as you live.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 23:34
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Dream on Jas. Our debt is in $.

 The United States Bullion Depository holds 4,577 metric tons (5046 tons) of gold bullion (147.2 million oz. troy). This is roughly 2.5% of all the gold ever refined throughout human history. Even so, the depository is second in the United States to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York's underground vault in Manhattan, which holds 7,000 metric tons (7716 tons) of gold bullion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bullion_Depository
 
Dream on because of what exactly?
 
Plus those are gold "deposits". They are not owned by the US government nor by the Federal reserve or any of its branches. They are actually owned largely by foreign governments. Plus as I said if exports were to be payed with gold the US will go bankrupt in a matter of months.
 
The fiat dollar is actually a plus for the US and the fact that all US debt and much of the commodities market is traded with it (instead of gold) keeps its value relatively constant.
 
Al-Jassas
 
 
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 23:44
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Thank you for your posts. I will keep learning from you. What I got from this is we are saying same things but we have different priorities. Most countries would ended up with bankruptcy if there was a gold standard.
Not necessarily. A 'gold standard' doesn't mean you have to pay in gold. Anyway Spain had more gold than anyone else in the 16th century (on an international 'gold standard'), but it was Spain that went bankrupt. Three times, as I recall.
Quote
But wealth countinues to flow... What if one day USA decide to introduce a new currency called "slipper" and refuse to pay anything for their former currency?
They wouldn't be able to buy anything. Also they wouldn't be able to borrow 'slippers' because no-one would have any 'slippers' to lend them, at least initially.  In order to import anything, it would still have to pay other countries in their own currencies or something stable like the yen or Swiss franc. Other countries might lend them the money to do so, but the loans would be denominated in the relevant currencies, and carry high interest after such a major default.
 
Imports could also be paid for in gold, but it wouldn't be that long vanishing with imports around 2-3 billion ounces of gold a year.
 
Those are a few offhand observations, but it's an interesting question to speculate about. Essentially the situation would be rather like that in Germany and Japan post-1945 or, better, Russia post-1917.  
Quote
It would be ultimate joke, just think of it. Clown Maybe Chinese would be able to recover a few ounces of gold worth of it via recycling more than 3 trillion dollars of paper LOL
 
Essentially, without the dollar as a reserve currency, the US would be broke immediately. At present prices it doesn't have enough gold to meet its financial obligations. In fact there isn't enough gold in the entire world to solve the US debt problem.


Edited by gcle2003 - 07 Mar 2012 at 23:48
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Buckskins View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2012 at 23:45
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Dream on Jas. Our debt is in $.

 The United States Bullion Depository holds 4,577 metric tons (5046 tons) of gold bullion (147.2 million oz. troy). This is roughly 2.5% of all the gold ever refined throughout human history. Even so, the depository is second in the United States to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York's underground vault in Manhattan, which holds 7,000 metric tons (7716 tons) of gold bullion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bullion_Depository

 
 [QUOTE]

Dream on because of what exactly?
 
Plus those are gold "deposits". They are not owned by the US government nor by the Federal reserve or any of its branches. They are actually owned largely by foreign governments. Plus as I said if exports were to be payed with gold the US will go bankrupt in a matter of months.
 
The fiat dollar is actually a plus for the US and the fact that all US debt and much of the commodities market is traded with it (instead of gold) keeps its value relatively constant.
 
Al-Jassas
 

A portion is indeed being held for foreign governments, and the vast majority is ours. That gold is bricks of pure gold, and it's going no place. Unlike some country that sold half their gold prior to it going through the roof.
May you live as long as you want to,
and may you want to as long as you live.
Back to Top
Buckskins View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2012 at 00:05

" Essentially, without the dollar as a reserve currency, the US would be broke immediately. At present prices it doesn't have enough gold to meet its financial obligations. In fact there isn't enough gold in the entire world to solve the US debt problem." 

You are talking about the country that despite the great depression, financed WW2. Most of our debt is internal. We owe China 5T so what. Your bright country sold half their gold reserves prior to gold taking off. In the big picture of things our debt is nothing we can't handle. If anyone wants paid, we can send them a boat load of dollar bills. Our debt to China is a weapon.


Edited by Buckskins - 08 Mar 2012 at 00:09
May you live as long as you want to,
and may you want to as long as you live.
Back to Top
Paradigm of Humanity View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 18 Oct 2011
Location: Konstantiniyye
Status: Offline
Points: 919
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2012 at 00:17
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

They wouldn't be able to buy anything. Also they wouldn't be able to borrow 'slippers' because no-one would have any 'slippers' to lend them, at least initially.  In order to import anything, it would still have to pay other countries in their own currencies or something stable like the yen or Swiss franc. Other countries might lend them the money to do so, but the loans would be denominated in the relevant currencies, and carry high interest after such a major default.
 
Imports could also be paid for in gold, but it wouldn't be that long vanishing with imports around 2-3 billion ounces of gold a year.


Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Essentially, without the dollar as a reserve currency, the US would be broke immediately. At present prices it doesn't have enough gold to meet its financial obligations. In fact there isn't enough gold in the entire world to solve the US debt problem.


I guess that was the reason why they introduced "slipper". They were about to broke and they had to done this. New currency evantually will replace its predecessor. Now US free of their debt but this time they have an unreliable currency for exchanging. But how long they could resist 765 billion dolar trade deficit annualy? It seems it's all ending up same way. Without fixing structural problems, this kind of money policy only postpones the consequences. Am I right? Tongue
Back to Top
Buckskins View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2012 at 00:17

 • 1 USA

Total gold holdings: 8,133 tonnes

Value: $361.8bn

• 2 Germany

Total gold holdings: 3,401 tonnes

• 3 IMF

Total gold holdings: 2,814 tonnes

Value: $125.7bn

The IMF oversees international economic operations of 187 member countries. Reserves remain to stabilise international markets and aid national economies.

• 4 Italy

Total gold holdings: 2,451.8 tonnes

Value: $109bn

• 5 France

Total gold holdings: 2,435.4 tonnes

Value: $108.3bn

• 6 China

Total gold holdings: 1,054.1 tonnes

Value: $46.9bn

• 7 Switzerland

Total gold holdings: 1,040.1 tonnes

Value: $46.3bn

• 8 Russia

Total gold holdings: 824.8 tonnes

Value: $34.9bn

• 9 Japan

Total gold holdings: 765.2 tonnes

Value: $34bn

• 10 Netherlands

Total gold holdings: 612.5 tonnes

Value: $27.2bn  


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/gold/8635555/The-countries-with-the-largest-gold-reserves.html



Edited by Buckskins - 08 Mar 2012 at 00:19
May you live as long as you want to,
and may you want to as long as you live.
Back to Top
Ramesh V.Naivaruni View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Location: BANGALORE
Status: Offline
Points: 246
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2012 at 23:25
I agree with previous poster statatics but when it comes to china I think the figures may not be correct as they are used to do thing there way, whether it is printing currency or declaration of gold.
 
I feel Germany should bail out Greece keeping their own interest in mind, as Mr.GCLE said there must some standards for determaining forex values and it is better to have it in time tested Gold holdings ratio.
 
RAMESH.V.NAIVARUN
BANGALORE
INDIA
rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
email rameshnaivaruni@yahoo.com
blog:Http.Indiandemocracy in mousetrap
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 00:56
Originally posted by BUckskins BUckskins wrote:

A portion is indeed being held for foreign governments, and the vast majority is ours
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

1 USA Total gold holdings: 8,133 tonnes
 
2,4,5 Germany, Italy, France, alone: Total gold holdings 8,288.3 tonnes
 
The rest of the world holds far more gold than the US does. For that matter the EU alone does. The US gold, on those figures, is valued at $361.8bn. The US government's debt owed abroad is in the  trillions, with around trillion owed to China.
 
That takes no account of the massive debt owed abroad by the US private sector.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 10 Mar 2012 at 01:04
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 01:01
Originally posted by Paradigm of Humanity Paradigm of Humanity wrote:

Without fixing structural problems, this kind of money policy only postpones the consequences. Am I right? Tongue
Pretty well. Some ways of postponing are less painful than others (and affect different economic classes differently) but in the end you can't beat selling more than you buy (or charging higher interest than you pay).
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
King
King


Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 5000
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 01:42
Well the bailout is a success. Yesterday at the 11th hour Greece convinced the last big bond holder to take a cut (which basically means a partially default) and thus met all the EU criteria for a bailout and it staying in the eurozone:
 
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master
Avatar
PM Honorary Member

Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Location: Luxembourg
Status: Offline
Points: 13238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 01:59
Much as I foretold.
 
I note Juncker is still President. I had heard he was going to resign if Germany and France didn't change their position: looks as though that was a threat that worked, since Junker is pretty much the only leader around that actually knows what he is doing.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 02:22
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Much as I foretold.
 
I note Juncker is still President. I had heard he was going to resign if Germany and France didn't change their position: looks as though that was a threat that worked, since Junker is pretty much the only leader around that actually knows what he is doing.

The only leader that knows what he is doing in Europe is the tiny nation of Luxembourg

So my argument on devolution of nations is proven 

Small nations usually govern themselves better.. large nations are subject to implosion and corruption
of course I dont like Juncker to be honest.. hes a conservative 


Edited by fusong - 10 Mar 2012 at 02:23
Back to Top
Buckskins View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 792
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2012 at 05:21


Quote
1 USA Total gold holdings: 8,133 tonnes
 
2,4,5 Germany, Italy, France, alone: Total gold holdings 8,288.3 tonnes

Quote
The rest of the world holds far more gold than the US does.

Of course it does?

Quote
 For that matter the EU alone does.

Yes they do.?

Quote
 The US gold, on those figures, is valued at $361.8bn. The US government's debt owed abroad is in the  trillions, with around trillion owed to China.

No, it's 10 trillion, and? 

Quote
That takes no account of the massive debt owed abroad by the US private sector.

Are you under the impression we are not owed?

So we have Italy's gold. We have Germany's gold, how much did the UK have again?LOL


United States Gold production.

 

UK Gold production.





Edited by Buckskins - 10 Mar 2012 at 05:42
May you live as long as you want to,
and may you want to as long as you live.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.107 seconds.