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Should India clear out from the Andaman islands?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2010 at 17:17
Enough! This "humanitarianism by long distance" is so bourgeoise as to be the subject of full-blown satire! One does not condemn people to ecological zoos for the sake of extraneous causes dear to one's own pretentious biases. So in the 17th century it was alright to "integrate" the Scanians to contemporary Swedish society, but it is now dastardly to do so even if by doing nothing the "primitives" are destined for doom! What a load of horsefeathers...not to mention bizarre science fiction.  The fact that today "we live in a more and more interconnected world" only underscores just how disconnected the eco-freaks of primitivism really are! "Unique culture, unique knowledge, human and cultural variation" etcetera, etcetera are little more than declamations on the vacuous! Given the fact that contemporary scientific knowledge and geo-climactic activity forewarn that leaving the thousand or so Andamanese aborigines to their own resorts actually seals their eventual doom should bring any true humanitarian to their senses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2010 at 18:12
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 Enough! This "humanitarianism by long distance" is so bourgeoise as to be the subject of full-blown satire! 
One does not condemn people to ecological zoos for the sake of extraneous causes dear to one's own pretentious biases. 

Noone condems anyone to anything. To let people be free from invasion, displacement and possible annihilation is the opposite to condemning anyone. Or maybe the Chinese or Russians shall invade your place and take care of things for you so you do not have to be confined to your socially mismanaged American human zoo?

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 So in the 17th century it was alright to "integrate" the Scanians to contemporary Swedish society...

Well, Scanians was of a similar culture as Swedes, the difference was not too enourmous. It was just variations of a Scandinavian culture with similar language, similar way of living, practically the same religion and so on. 

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 ...but it is now dastardly to do so even if by doing nothing the "primitives" are destined for doom!

You maybe think the so called primitives do not deserve some independance or to be able to determine their own future. You maybe think the so called primitives can be displaced, assimilated and exploited while their lands are being taken over by developers, settlers, poachers, loggers, farmers and all sorts of thugs that want to steal their land.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 2010 at 22:10
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

I think the idea of forcing 300,000 people to leave their homes for the sake of 1,000 is unconscionable.


This statement sums it up perfectly. I mean, I understand the consideration of Carch about rare populations that have been invaded etc, but is the Andaman islands a special case?

What is next? Lets evacuate the Americas and let the natives decide their own future. Lets send back all invaders where they came from. Seriously, there are forgotten cases in our world where the natives have been displaced completely. That is even more serious. But can we operate like that?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 00:52
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

I think the idea of forcing 300,000 people to leave their homes for the sake of 1,000 is unconscionable.


This statement sums it up perfectly. I mean, I understand the consideration of Carch about rare populations that have been invaded etc, but is the Andaman islands a special case?

What is next? Lets evacuate the Americas and let the natives decide their own future. Lets send back all invaders where they came from. Seriously, there are forgotten cases in our world where the natives have been displaced completely. That is even more serious. But can we operate like that?



By Carch's rationale, every non aboriginal Australian and New Zealander would have to apply for passports from their ancestral homelands and then face deportation from the only home they have ever known. And so despite founding a nation, building cities, establishing a culture and having been here for a dozen generation - we must say good bye to all that.

It's absurd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 01:48
Its not absurd. Just genocidal. 
What do you think has been happening in the Balkans for the last 150 years?
Or in Imperial Spain?
Or even modern Zimbabwe?
Or the partition of India?
 
People who were entirely a part of that country were evicted on the basis their ancestors moved in (or were perceived to) centuries before. The only thing stopping it is reletive strength.
Give Leonardo or his type half a chance and he will do the same thing in Europe too. Push established non-aboriginal peoples out in order to bask in perfect native culture.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 01 Jul 2010 at 01:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 10:53
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Its not absurd. Just genocidal. 
What do you think has been happening in the Balkans for the last 150 years?
Or in Imperial Spain?
Or even modern Zimbabwe?
Or the partition of India?
 
People who were entirely a part of that country were evicted on the basis their ancestors moved in (or were perceived to) centuries before. The only thing stopping it is reletive strength.
Give Leonardo or his type half a chance and he will do the same thing in Europe too. Push established non-aboriginal peoples out in order to bask in perfect native culture.


Exactly!
And in some cases it is even worse, since even "natives" have been moved from lands hold by "non-native" forces.


Edited by Flipper - 01 Jul 2010 at 10:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 12:20
Well, the Andaman is somewhat special since it is just a very limited area, out on islands in the ocean. It is also a case where most of the invasion has happened relatively recently. Most of the 300 000 are post 1947.
 
So the situation is not irreversible as it is in many other places. Even if one is not able to clear out all Indians from the Andamans one could stimulate resettlement to the mainland with economic rewards and subsidies.
 
And as I mentioned, other colonial powers have been able to redraw its colonists more quickly, as France from Algeria (900 000 in a few months).
But here I suggest a gradual withrawal with generous subsidies to those who move.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 12:57
Well, that is not a bad proposal, considering that India has the funds to do such a thing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 13:37
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, the Andaman is somewhat special since it is just a very limited area, out on islands in the ocean. It is also a case where most of the invasion has happened relatively recently. Most of the 300 000 are post 1947.
 
So the situation is not irreversible as it is in many other places. Even if one is not able to clear out all Indians from the Andamans one could stimulate resettlement to the mainland with economic rewards and subsidies.
 
And as I mentioned, other colonial powers have been able to redraw its colonists more quickly, as France from Algeria (900 000 in a few months).
But here I suggest a gradual withrawal with generous subsidies to those who move.


What about Denmark from Greenland?  British from Falklands?  Europeans from America, South Africa, Zimbabwe.  In fact how about all settlers and their descendants to everywhere go home? Blod.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 13:42
What Carch in his bigoted zeal far more intense than any Torquemada has forgotten to mention is that the Indian government has provided lands for the preservation of the 1000 or so remaining aboriginals...the Sentinelese have an entire island to themselves [this is the group that usually makes the press] and the Jarawese have their territorial integrity guaranteed by the government...
 
 
Wonder why Carch does not mention the Nicobar Islands?Evil Smile
 
Wonder what the Swedish Ministry of Integration and Gender Equality would do?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 2010 at 15:16
Basically Carch, how come you picked Andaman islands as a object of study? Did you read some kind of report about it or did you randomly hit on it?

I was thinking in case you stumbled upon some independent "Human rights" organization or something. Unfortunately, there are loads of "Human rights" organizations that are unfortunately only a vitrine to other activities. Unless you do know the organization, it is better to stick to what the UN says and nothing else.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2010 at 19:16
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Well, the Andaman is somewhat special since it is just a very limited area, out on islands in the ocean. It is also a case where most of the invasion has happened relatively recently. Most of the 300 000 are post 1947.
 
So the situation is not irreversible as it is in many other places. Even if one is not able to clear out all Indians from the Andamans one could stimulate resettlement to the mainland with economic rewards and subsidies.
 
And as I mentioned, other colonial powers have been able to redraw its colonists more quickly, as France from Algeria (900 000 in a few months).
But here I suggest a gradual withrawal with generous subsidies to those who move.


What about Denmark from Greenland?  British from Falklands?  Europeans from America, South Africa, Zimbabwe.  In fact how about all settlers and their descendants to everywhere go home? Blod.

The Denmark Greenland issue is a debated one and there are indeed people (both Greenlanders and others) that would like to see a gradual Danish withdraval. The British and the Falklands, well, what is the meaning of the Falklanders themselves? I got the impression they were msotly British descendants that  is in favoutr for a British ownership of the islands. 
As I mentioned before, in most places a withdrawal is rather inconceivable out of practical and political reasons (too many people to move) and historical reasons, they lived there for far to long.
The Andamanese situation is a bit special.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2010 at 19:28
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

What Carch in his bigoted zeal far more intense than any Torquemada has forgotten to mention is that the Indian government has provided lands for the preservation of the 1000 or so remaining aboriginals...the Sentinelese have an entire island to themselves [this is the group that usually makes the press] and the Jarawese have their territorial integrity guaranteed by the government...

Well, since the avalable land on the islands is shrinking due to the increase in Indian population the room for a rehabilitation of original higher numbers of Andamanese natives decreases (they were actually once more than 5000, some sources even say 10 000 or more, with a way of living that craves reasonable large areas). Also those places which on the paper are reserved for the Andamanese (for example the land reserved for the Jarawas) is constantly infringed on, roads cuts through it, tourist industry threatens them, illegal logging, poaching, settling, farming and other enterprises is a constant threat. And that threat will not increase when the press from a larger and larger Indian population increases.
Also in the Jarawa case, local authorities actually obstruct instructions from the central government, for example they have refused to close the road that they built straight trough Jarawa territory.

And if the Sentinelese did not so adamantely defend their island it would probably have been invaded by all the loggers, poachers, settlers, developers and others that deisre their land.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 2010 at 19:40
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

  Basically Carch, how come you picked Andaman islands as a object of study? Did you read some kind of report about it or did you randomly hit on it?

Well, I have read about it already some time ago, but it was first now that I took it up to discussion here on AE.

Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

 I was thinking in case you stumbled upon some independent "Human rights" organization or something. Unfortunately, there are loads of "Human rights" organizations that are unfortunately only a vitrine to other activities. Unless you do know the organization, it is better to stick to what the UN says and nothing else.

Well there are books (several anthropological books mention the islands and it inhabitants) and reports about the Andaman islands. Also in some historical travel accounts the islands now and then pops up. So when I read such books and accounts I got more and more interested. And then I also had some contacts with organisations that worked with the Andaman question.

One organisation that has dedicated itself for the Andaman cause is Survival International. It is a rather serious organisation, it has even got the Right Livelihood Award.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eventhorizon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2010 at 04:54
Talking about cultural genocide, can we mention recent Han Chinese migration into Tibet and Xinjiang, post 1951 invasion of People's Liberation Army. Will the Chinese accept migrating these people back to their original Han Chinese ancestral land for the sake of saving the cultures of native Tibetans and Turkics in those areas? Can they at least consider stopping incentives for these migrations to take place from the government, since these areas already have more than 50% Han Chinese population, enough to stop any separatist nightmares?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2010 at 11:40
Originally posted by eventhorizon eventhorizon wrote:

Talking about cultural genocide, can we mention recent Han Chinese migration into Tibet and Xinjiang, post 1951 invasion of People's Liberation Army. Will the Chinese accept migrating these people back to their original Han Chinese ancestral land for the sake of saving the cultures of native Tibetans and Turkics in those areas? Can they at least consider stopping incentives for these migrations to take place from the government, since these areas already have more than 50% Han Chinese population, enough to stop any separatist nightmares?

China is a more complicated situation where Tibetans, Turks and Han has a long history of interaction. Also Tibet and Xinjiang is not located on small islands in the ocean, so in some aspects it is difficult to compare with the Andamans. Also the Han population in Tibet and Xinjiang is larger than the Indian population in the Andamans, so it would be a lot harder to move them. In the Andamans the number of Indians is still not too high for them to gradually move out.

In both cases ofcourse there are political reasons that obstructs a redrawal.

But ofcourse China ought to change its politics against Tibetans and Turks. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 2010 at 16:32

That's right Carch it's all about politics! Yours!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2010 at 15:57
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

That's right Carch it's all about politics! Yours!


Well, you really seem to have some agenda, always protesting against all thoughts of Indigenous freedom or independence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2010 at 22:52
"[T]houghts of Indigeneous freedom or independence"...egads! If such is not an inversion of historical and social processes in the 21st century for the sake of pseudo-humanitarian malarkey, one would be hard put to discover another. Just on the basis of current global ecological change, Carch, your fancies over isolates on the Andaman is little more than a request for a signed death warrant. The facts here are not as you would portray them. Certainly, the Indian government is moving responsibly when it comes to the fate of these few individuals and yet you choose to mutter on about freedom and independence and heaven knows what other abstraction might pop up. Interaction means integration with reality and not some whacko plan that would only guarantee the extinction of these few survivors at the hands of the next earthquake or tsunami.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2010 at 02:21
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

"[T]houghts of Indigeneous freedom or independence"...egads! If such is not an inversion of historical and social processes in the 21st century for the sake of pseudo-humanitarian malarkey, one would be hard put to discover another. Just on the basis of current global ecological change, Carch, your fancies over isolates on the Andaman is little more than a request for a signed death warrant. The facts here are not as you would portray them. Certainly, the Indian government is moving responsibly when it comes to the fate of these few individuals and yet you choose to mutter on about freedom and independence and heaven knows what other abstraction might pop up. Interaction means integration with reality and not some whacko plan that would only guarantee the extinction of these few survivors at the hands of the next earthquake or tsunami.

Integration is not an end in itself. Whats the purpose of integrating, or rather assimilating, indigenous peoples into the poverty stricken third world culture when they have a rich, independent culture of their own? Better defend their cultural integrity and way of life than let them be engulfed and become still one of these native cultures that have ended up in the slum culture of the thirld world, while others steal their land and harvest their natural resources. You seem to be stuck in an old colonial style thinking where all indigenous peoples shall give way for the invasion of the mass culture.

And do not forget that these people have been able to interact with nature for more than 30 000 years. The thing that threatens them are not earthquakes but a mass invasion of foreigners that deplete their resources, take away their land and spread contagious diseases.



Edited by Carcharodon - 06 Jul 2010 at 02:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2010 at 08:44
Interact with Nature? ROTFLMAO! What next? The glories of the paleolithic against the decadence of civilization? Perhaps you should try it Carch? Go back to nature whole-hog--breech-cloth, stone-ax and all! By the way, isn't there a bit of loathing in using such terminology as "slum culture of the third world" as if such did not say more about your values than the people you so cold-heartedly dismiss.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eventhorizon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2010 at 09:20
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

"[T]houghts of Indigeneous freedom or independence"...egads! If such is not an inversion of historical and social processes in the 21st century for the sake of pseudo-humanitarian malarkey, one would be hard put to discover another. Just on the basis of current global ecological change, Carch, your fancies over isolates on the Andaman is little more than a request for a signed death warrant. The facts here are not as you would portray them. Certainly, the Indian government is moving responsibly when it comes to the fate of these few individuals and yet you choose to mutter on about freedom and independence and heaven knows what other abstraction might pop up. Interaction means integration with reality and not some whacko plan that would only guarantee the extinction of these few survivors at the hands of the next earthquake or tsunami.

Integration is not an end in itself. Whats the purpose of integrating, or rather assimilating, indigenous peoples into the poverty stricken third world culture when they have a rich, independent culture of their own? Better defend their cultural integrity and way of life than let them be engulfed and become still one of these native cultures that have ended up in the slum culture of the thirld world, while others steal their land and harvest their natural resources. You seem to be stuck in an old colonial style thinking where all indigenous peoples shall give way for the invasion of the mass culture.

And do not forget that these people have been able to interact with nature for more than 30 000 years. The thing that threatens them are not earthquakes but a mass invasion of foreigners that deplete their resources, take away their land and spread contagious diseases.



You are denigrating "third world" culture (which in itself is a humiliating term) as "poverty stricken" "slum culture", but forgetting that much of this "third world" became like this due to colonial rule and exploitation and resulting disruption caused by the "first world".

The "third world" will protect and cherish its indigenous people more when their socio economic situation improves IMHO, till that time some outside intervention such as UN funding etc. will definitely help the "third world" govt.s take some initiative, and thus the "first world" can put their money where their mouth is.

Land owned by any group of people is a tricky issue, it is the fundamental basis for nation states, where a group of people occupies a land and then call it its own. Essentially, the only way this happened in the past or can happen now is with overwhelming force of ones own or from allies from outside. Humans have not improved much the law of the jungle in this respect, where might is right. Examples:

Israel, Xinjiang, Tibet, Kashmir, USA, Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii, Kosovo, Chechnya etc. where occupation happened within last 50 to 400 years.

When a culture is small and vulnerable, a bigger, stronger and technologically more advanced culture will usurp their land and resources, that happened from time immemorial.

So what is the solution then, to let these small vulnerable indigenous cultures survive. One way is to voluntarily let them find some vocation for themselves within their original habitat, while keeping the option open for integration into larger advanced cultures, when they choose. The key word is voluntary enlightenment/education, avoiding forced assimilation. Creating a cocoon, where time stands still, is probably not a solution that ensures the survival of these small vulnerable indigenous cultures IMHO.

I promote the idea in another thread that people of an entire civilization/region can share their land and resources among one another, where individual ownership and property is enshrined, but land and mineral resources are shared among people of an entire civilization/region.

This regional grouping still does not solve the problem of resource wars between regions, unless wars are avoided by creative conflict management. Eventually in a one world political entity, if and when the entire planet is owned by all people of the world equally, then that would probably mean the end of resource based conflicts among regions.

Sorry if I went on a tangent, but the concept that people who have been there longer owns that land is problematic, which I wanted to point out and the opposite seems to be the wave of the future that resolves many of today's conflicts, much of it over occupied or inherited land and other land based resources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2010 at 10:09
Originally posted by eventhorizon eventhorizon wrote:

 
You are denigrating "third world" culture (which in itself is a humiliating term) as "poverty stricken" "slum culture", but forgetting that much of this "third world" became like this due to colonial rule and exploitation and resulting disruption caused by the "first world".

Yes, but that does not make it better, that does not diminish the often rather terrible impact it has ahd on several indigenous peoples, their health, their culture, their society and their environment,

Originally posted by eventhorizon eventhorizon wrote:

 The "third world" will protect and cherish its indigenous people more when their socio economic situation improves IMHO, till that time some outside intervention such as UN funding etc. will definitely help the "third world" govt.s take some initiative, and thus the "first world" can put their money where their mouth is.

Unfortunately during the mantime many indigenous peoples are threatened by massive enchraochment on their land, exploitation of their natural resources and depletion of their cultures.

Originally posted by eventhorizon eventhorizon wrote:

 Land owned by any group of people is a tricky issue, it is the fundamental basis for nation states, where a group of people occupies a land and then call it its own. Essentially, the only way this happened in the past or can happen now is with overwhelming force of ones own or from allies from outside. Humans have not improved much the law of the jungle in this respect, where might is right. 

Ofcourse you must judge every case individually, but one can still see a pattern where many indigenous peoples are getting displaced because of different political and economic agendas from the side of the nation states they happen to live in. Often these nation states also let in foreign developers in order to use natural resources in an indigenous area. Example of that is governments that let oil companies, mining companies and others rampage the land just for quick cash.

Originally posted by eventhorizon eventhorizon wrote:

 When a culture is small and vulnerable, a bigger, stronger and technologically more advanced culture will usurp their land and resources, that happened from time immemorial.

Well, in our time of development   maybe we can put an end to such things and start to protect small vulnerable cultures. I mean, in so many other other context we always brag about how developed we are.

Originally posted by eventhorizon eventhorizon wrote:

 So what is the solution then, to let these small vulnerable indigenous cultures survive. One way is to voluntarily let them find some vocation for themselves within their original habitat, while keeping the option open for integration into larger advanced cultures, when they choose. The key word is voluntary enlightenment/education, avoiding forced assimilation. Creating a cocoon, where time stands still, is probably not a solution that ensures the survival of these small vulnerable indigenous cultures IMHO.

If you have listened to some of the indigenous peoples you would have noticed that they often fight very hard to be able to keep their land and their cultures. They do not just want to be assimilated and swallowed into some massculture, instead they want to develop on their own terms.

Originally posted by eventhorizon eventhorizon wrote:

 Sorry if I went on a tangent, but the concept that people who have been there longer owns that land is problematic, which I wanted to point out and the opposite seems to be the wave of the future that resolves many of today's conflicts, much of it over occupied or inherited land and other land based resources.

Well, if people who have lived in a place for millennia just can be removed because of a whim from others who happen to want to exploit their land and their resources, then we live in a highly uncivilized world. It is time for many states to take their responsibility to try to protect vulnerable indigenous populations and also for the UN to live up to its proud devices about everyones equal value and the value of cultural diversity and the rights of indigenous peoples.


Edited by Carcharodon - 06 Jul 2010 at 10:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2010 at 10:21
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Interact with Nature? ROTFLMAO! What next?

Talking about the impact of the Tsunami on the Andamans, it was actually the Andamanese indigenous people that was most able to take protective measeures to avoid it since they saw the signs of it in advance and they could reach for safe spots. The toll among the Indian population was high though, since they did not see it coming, they were completely taken by surprise.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The glories of the paleolithic against the decadence of civilization? Perhaps you should try it Carch? Go back to nature whole-hog--breech-cloth, stone-ax and all! By the way, isn't there a bit of loathing in using such terminology as "slum culture of the third world" as if such did not say more about your values than the people you so cold-heartedly dismiss.

Unfortunately many third world countries have immense problems with powerty, slum, depletion of cultures, environmental problems, violence and unrest. To integrate (or in reality assimilate) indigenous peoples into that (many times out of economic reasons because one want the indigenous peoples land and resources) is just another form of genocide.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2010 at 11:13
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

If such is not an inversion of historical and social processes in the 21st century for the sake of pseudo-humanitarian malarkey,


DrGonzaga
I can agree 100% with you in the case of many pseudo-humanitarian organizations, sponsored by billionaires, who try to create situations in various parts of the world. If you see some post of mine behind I asked Carch how he came up with this thread and if some unknown to him "humanitarian" organization affected him.

Unfortunately in our days, there are loads of these vitrine-organizations who affect the minds of many people and form an opinion. On the other hand Dr G, the world fortunately is still not that "funked"-up yet and there is still some remains of indigenous cultures who preserve their customs and all the rest bla bla bla bla. You know what I mean. Everyone was not invented nor created in the 21st century. Our world is a bit more original than that. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2010 at 15:50
Hmm...so survival is not a product of adaptation to changing conditions?Evil Smile OK, the levity might not be appreciated but the address was directed at the inconsistencies in the Aboriginal Advocacy game. When you get right down to it all of the present palaver is little more than the persistence of the old Noble Savage blather of the "enlightenment". After all, Pocahontas never went back after she got a taste of London!Wink

Edited by drgonzaga - 06 Jul 2010 at 15:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2010 at 15:52
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 After all, Pocahontas never went back after she got a taste of London!Wink

No, because she died of smallpox!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote eventhorizon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2010 at 18:42
Carcharodon, hopefully you did not misunderstand me. I am definitely on your side on this issue of protecting small vulnerable cultures from forced assimilation. It is because I believe that (which I explain in great detail in another thread) Historical Continuity is essential for survival of a culture (small or large) and the future adaptation of its members with changing times and environment around them. Forced assimilation which is a kind of disruption on the natural flow of a social system is always counter productive.

But I differ on the method that you suggest, which is to completely leave them alone in a time capsule, which is similar to treating them not as a member of the human species but some primates in a zoo, although the zoo itself could be large like the island in case of Sentinelese.

What I recommend is, giving them sufficient space to carry on with their lifestyle in their original habitat (perhaps the Indian govt. should take more care in encroaching on their habitat), but at the same time have some facilities for education, such as schools and libraries, so they have the option to develop other skills as well as to share the human body of knowledge that has been gathered by fellow humans who belong in the same species as them.

A voluntary enlightenment effort, as opposed to forced removal from land, loss of habitat or forced assimilation, will IMHO ensure the survival and continuity of smaller cultures and give them more ability to adapt and thrive, even in the midst of bigger more advanced cultures.

I raised the land ownership issue, because it is a pandora's box and the source of much problems in the world today. For small lands, such as the Sentinelese island, its not much relevant. The world has sufficient land to leave some habitat space for vulnerable indigenous cultures for the time being, while they adapt and transform themselves from untouched cultures to fully adapted cultures. So in this respect, I agree that Indian govt. should do more to avoid using these small islands as additional space for human settlement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 2010 at 19:19
 
Originally posted by eventhorizon eventhorizon wrote:

 Carcharodon, hopefully you did not misunderstand me. I am definitely on your side on this issue of protecting small vulnerable cultures from forced assimilation. It is because I believe that (which I explain in great detail in another thread) Historical Continuity is essential for survival of a culture (small or large) and the future adaptation of its members with changing times and environment around them. Forced assimilation which is a kind of disruption on the natural flow of a social system is always counter productive.

But I differ on the method that you suggest, which is to completely leave them alone in a time capsule, which is similar to treating them not as a member of the human species but some primates in a zoo, although the zoo itself could be large like the island in case of Sentinelese.

What I recommend is, giving them sufficient space to carry on with their lifestyle in their original habitat (perhaps the Indian govt. should take more care in encroaching on their habitat), but at the same time have some facilities for education, such as schools and libraries, so they have the option to develop other skills as well as to share the human body of knowledge that has been gathered by fellow humans who belong in the same species as them.

A voluntary enlightenment effort, as opposed to forced removal from land, loss of habitat or forced assimilation, will IMHO ensure the survival and continuity of smaller cultures and give them more ability to adapt and thrive, even in the midst of bigger more advanced cultures.

 

Yes, in the long run schools, hospital and similar would surely be important. But the first issue one must take care of is to protect the land of the native peoples. Otherwise, if they get displaced it very often ends up with some assimilation into the lowest ranks of the already poor third world societies that surrounds them. That will too often (as experience has shown again and again) lead to severe health problems (often both physical and psychological) and in the end total demise (that have happened before). Also for such people to rehabilitate from the decline they already experinced they must have enough land so they ccan increase numbers to the levels they once had on. For that they must regain also land that were once taken away from them. So that also means that one with different measures must relieve them from the pressure of increasing numbers of intruding people. So when concerns the Andamans a long term, very gradual withdrawal of at least a considerable part of the Indian population is perhaps necessary. And that would be able to obtain with generous subsidies and rewards for those who leave. Until then Indian government must protect the Andamanese even better, put a stop to further immigration and exploitation of native land and to put a stop to illegal logging, fishing, poaching, settling and other forms of enchroachment. Also one must be aware of that contacts with outsiders can be physically dangerous for a people like the Andamanese becaause their lack of resistance ffrom many diseases that occur among the foreigners. That problem must also be handled.

 

As for the Sentinelese, it would be wrong to force oneself upon them. If one shall try to contact them it must be gradually, from a distance until they themselves choose to pursue furhter contact.

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