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Should we repeal this regulation?

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Poll Question: Should we repeal this regulation?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
3 [37.50%]
5 [62.50%]
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Parnell View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Apr 2012 at 06:39
Taken from the code of conduct:

Trolling; Trolling is the act of posting witty, response-provoking comments that appear relevant in order to disrupt the discussion, annoy or create attention. Trolling can also be considered as Spam, inflammatory remarks, or annoyance.

Trolling is at times a necessary evil. Furthermore that definition looks like it was conjured up by a 13 year old asperger's sufferer. 'the act of posting witty, response-provoking comments' - surely that should be of paramount concern to a web community devoted to history?

At the very least we should narrow the definition so as to limit it to nuisance grudge holders who deliberately stoke nationalist or racist invective in order to generate discontent.
http://xkcd.com/15/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2012 at 07:00
I've always considered this more of a general guideline rather than a set-in-stone rule. I certainly would object to it being stringently and literally enforced. But I don't think that really happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2012 at 08:46
Are we too ban humor in our posts? If it is used in the wrong way then the post should be deleted, possibly with a warning to the offender. Much more of a fair deal would be too hold everyone to the same standards of enforcement and censure of the CoC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2012 at 10:35
I tend to agree with Constantine on this one.
"I am moved to pity, when I think of the brevity of human life, seeing that of all this host of men not one will still be alive in a hundred years time."

Emporer Xerxes I looking upon his army 480 BC
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2012 at 20:29
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Taken from the code of conduct:

Trolling; Trolling is the act of posting witty, response-provoking comments that appear relevant in order to disrupt the discussion, annoy or create attention. Trolling can also be considered as Spam, inflammatory remarks, or annoyance.

Trolling is at times a necessary evil. Furthermore that definition looks like it was conjured up by a 13 year old asperger's sufferer. 'the act of posting witty, response-provoking comments' - surely that should be of paramount concern to a web community devoted to history?

At the very least we should narrow the definition so as to limit it to nuisance grudge holders who deliberately stoke nationalist or racist invective in order to generate discontent.
 The last sentence is the wrong way around, since it is supposed to be defining 'trolling'. It should at least read "Spam, inflammatory remarks or annoyance can also be considered as 'trolling'."
 
However the important phrase in the paragraph there is '...in order to disrupt the discussion, annoy or create attention.' The paragraph needs rewriting as
Quote "Trolling is the act of posting comments that appear relevant in order to disrupt the discussion, annoy or create attention. Spam, inflammatory remarks, or annoyance can also be considered as Spam."
As you point out, 'witty' and 'response-provoking' can be positive attributes not necessarily negative ones, unless the comments break other sections of the Code.
 
'Nationalist or racist invective' (for that matter religious too) is banned under another paragraph
Quote
     6. Nationalism and the belittlement of religious groups; derogatory remarks to religious, national or ethnic groups and members, jingoism, bigotry, racism, political propaganda. (see appendix below)
and
Quote   5. Rude insults, defamatory remarks, offensive images, cursing, profanity intended as an insult towards another member, personal attacks, words of hate. Any remarks that stirs up anger. In dealing with flame wars, comments that started the flame war will have more weight in terms of violation. 
 
Quote
     7. Derogatory remarks to individual members or social groups on grounds of their age, gender, or sexual orientation.








Edited by gcle2003 - 05 Apr 2012 at 20:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 2012 at 20:37
Originally posted by Buckskins Buckskins wrote:

Are we too ban humor in our posts? If it is used in the wrong way then the post should be deleted, possibly with a warning to the offender. Much more of a fair deal would be too hold everyone to the same standards of enforcement and censure of the CoC.
As pointed out elsewhere in the Code, fairness requires that the provoker of an exchange is more liable than the responder. If someone calls someone else a sexual pervert, he has no defence against anything being hurled back at him.
 
Peple who deliberately provoke, then are vilified back, then scream to the moderators are essentially despicable.
 
Nobody's talking about banning humour. But jokes that belittle racial, national or religious groups, or individual members of the forum are unacceptable.
Citizen of Ankh-Morpork.

Never believe anything until it has been officially denied - Sir Humphrey Appleby, 1984.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 02:35
I say we dont change anything its fair the way it is
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 03:20
I think it's OK once you work it out and read it in conjunction with the rest of the code. I don't think it's clear eough though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 04:17
Maybe if we used a more straight forward language insted of a pool of verbiage where the message is lost...
 
 3. Trolling; Trolling is to post comments that appear relevant,  but are designed to disrupt the discussion, annoy, inflame or create attention.
 
I could easily let go of the whole CoC and use one word instead:  BEHAVE
 
If people don't know what that means and takes, we are more than willing to teach them...
But of course, it's always nice with some paragraphs....
 
 
 
 


Edited by Northman - 06 Apr 2012 at 04:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 20:57
Parnell asked me why I closed the thread yesterday.
I did it for two reasons...
 
1.
Normally we do not discuss changes to the CoC in public
We have never done that in the eight years I have been here,  but always decided amongst the staff.
 
2.
I hid a post that clearly demonstrated why it isn't a good idea to discuss rules in public
Discussions like this will go downhill very fast.
 
We have a body of dedicated moderators and an elected council and they all to do a great job.
Also when it comes to setting and changing the rules and indeed, enforcing them on the forum.
 
But by all means - please go on if you think you can do a better job...
Thread re-opened.
 
Northman
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paradigm of Humanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 21:32
There's no need to change written rules. These are almost exact same rules you can encounter in any other forum. Of course, there must be a large tolerance factor when applying these and fortunately there is...

This thread only serves one purpose... Openly exposing Parnell's obsession with perfection! He can't withstand seeing a rule that doesn't in force Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2012 at 13:26
Originally posted by es_bih es_bih wrote:

Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

I've always considered this more of a general guideline rather than a set-in-stone rule. I certainly would object to it being stringently and literally enforced. But I don't think that really happens.
Ditto. 
 
Aye; ditto for me too.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 05:33
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

 
But by all means - please go on if you think you can do a better job...
Thread re-opened.
 
Northman


This is a strange position to take. And that is a very strange comment to make. By questioning a rule you aren't necessarily questioning a system or how it works, you're merely asking for its review. Bizarre.

I'd like to ask, in light of Northman's comments, (Which betrays a certain aristocratic noblesse oblige - like a great magnate caring for his peasants) whether it is really necessary to make such a large distinction between the class of moderators and the broader user base.
http://xkcd.com/15/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 06:16
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

 
But by all means - please go on if you think you can do a better job...
Thread re-opened.
 
Northman

This is a strange position to take. And that is a very strange comment to make. By questioning a rule you aren't necessarily questioning a system or how it works, you're merely asking for its review. Bizarre.

I'd like to ask, in light of Northman's comments, (Which betrays a certain aristocratic noblesse oblige - like a great magnate caring for his peasants) whether it is really necessary to make such a large distinction between the class of moderators and the broader user base.
Indeed - I am strange and weird and I might make even more strange comments.
But belive me - whether you understand it or not, there is a perfectly good reason for what I do. 
 
I even tried to explain why, but apparently to no avail. You seem to chose to ignore my explanation.
Luckily I have no obligation to further your education - and since I re-opened the thread you can discuss to your hearts content if you so desire. So what is your case?
 
I don't know what you are on about any betrayel, but if you question my dedication and responsibility towards this forum you are really stretching it and barking up a wrong tree.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 08:06
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

 
But by all means - please go on if you think you can do a better job...
Thread re-opened.
 
Northman

This is a strange position to take. And that is a very strange comment to make. By questioning a rule you aren't necessarily questioning a system or how it works, you're merely asking for its review. Bizarre.

I'd like to ask, in light of Northman's comments, (Which betrays a certain aristocratic noblesse oblige - like a great magnate caring for his peasants) whether it is really necessary to make such a large distinction between the class of moderators and the broader user base.
Indeed - I am strange and weird and I might make even more strange comments.
But belive me - whether you understand it or not, there is a perfectly good reason for what I do. 
 
I even tried to explain why, but apparently to no avail. You seem to chose to ignore my explanation.
Luckily I have no obligation to further your education - and since I re-opened the thread you can discuss to your hearts content if you so desire. So what is your case?
 
I don't know what you are on about any betrayel, but if you question my dedication and responsibility towards this forum you are really stretching it and barking up a wrong tree.
 
~ North
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


I don't think you get it, and for some reason have decided to take it personally. I give up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2012 at 11:29
Ok I think we have hit a bit of a misunderstanding here. Let's chalk it down to that and go back to discussing this worthwhile topic.

I think that regular members are only required to privately submit queries or complaints in regard to specific disciplinary action, but not for broad forum policies as a whole. So I can't see a good reason not to discuss Parnell's topic in public.

The specific CoC clause we are looking at is basically there as a guide to all members that we hope everyone roughly follows. I am sure nearly everybody here has made witty remarks that aren't quite relevant to the OP from time to time. I know I have. And that isn't always such a bad thing. But we do hope that with such a clause, all members will be mindful  of it and not go overboard with being silly.

The clause is not literally or stringently enforced, and I would be the first to oppose any efforts to do so. But it is useful to cite when disciplinary action must be taken against a member who is really going out of their way to be disruptive.

Essentially, it's a CoC author's polite and official way of saying: "don't be a total jackass". And that's a guideline that every internet forum requires, however it is worded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 08:01
Trolling is too vague a concept, i think the rules G pointed out cover things off nicely in that regard.  
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 08:17
So - the final advice to the admins is?
 
Are we going to keep it or find a more clear way of wording?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buckskins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 11:12
Lets have a clear definition of the word "Troll" for this community. If we are to have rules, lets get the ambiguity out of them. Is it an offence to call someone a "Troll" Is it ok to call someone a Troll if the meaning of the word is ambiguous. Can a member be called a Troll if he or she meets the forum definition of one? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 12:43
I'm happy with adopting Graham's amendment. Besides that I don't see the need for much more change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 13:09
There is actually five votes for keeping it as it is - but I think it could need a change.
 
Here are the three possibilities - all to define the kind of trolling we don't want.
1) Original:
Trolling; Trolling is the act of posting witty, response-provoking comments that appear relevant in order to disrupt the discussion, annoy or create attention. Trolling can also be considered as Spam, inflammatory remarks, or annoyance.
 
2) gcle2003:
Trolling: Trolling is the act of posting comments that appear relevant in order to disrupt the discussion, annoy or create attention. Spam, inflammatory remarks, or annoyance can also be considered as Spam Trolling.
 
3) Northman:
Trolling; Trolling is to post comments that appear relevant,  but are designed to disrupt the discussion, annoy, inflame or create attention.
 
The operational word is intent....  we moderate intentions and behavior - not content.
So which of the three is more clear in respect to intention and behavior.
 
PS...
I'm sure G has a typo as the last word reads Spam - it probably should have been Trolling, so I have corrected it.
 
 


Edited by Northman - 10 Apr 2012 at 13:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 2012 at 20:33
If it's to be kept at all - my vote is for Northman's succinct amendment.
"There was glory in pissing, Corabb decided as he watched the stream curve out and make that familiar but unique sound as it hit the ground." So true.
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