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Sinitic Civilization began in 3000 BC in Liangzhu

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 02:52
LC:
1. What's the source of Path I and Path II ?
 
2. Newspaper reports are hardly the most scientific source of information, and it's not confirmed anyway.
 
The biggest problem, as I see it, with discussing Chinese history is the fact that so little has been done, scientifically, in China, or if it has been done, the reports have not reached the western world.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that there have been AMH in China for thousands of years, and that their culture only became civilised as recently as 5000 to 3000ybp, I would find surprising.
 
 
 


Edited by toyomotor - 12 May 2014 at 03:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 03:59
To be able to produce detailed accounts about how civilization was created in China is the work of precision archaeology.  I just don't have the complete archaeological background to easily provide the complete works of all the teams working in China to produce the picture they have.  However once the theoretical understanding has been made it is usually corroborated in the field.  I don't think it is to anyone's surprise that the homegrown civilization in China would be established in Liangzhu, a city state, just like all other civilizations of the world were necessarily able to arise within a city state context.  Egypt, Sumer, Indus, and Liangzhu all roughly shared about the same field of highly centralised consolidation towards their central city state complexes which totaled on order of thousands of square miles.

Path 1 discredits the unscientific approach for creating some of the discontinuity of archaeological studies in China.  Of course during this period it contrasts somewhat to the western multipronged approach and to which is ultimately given credit for helping Chinese archaeology, but not always.  You get people like Victor Mair into the mix. 

Path 2 is a new approach which has sources the world over.

Newspaper reports consists of journalistic record of the scientific findings.  It is the scientific findings that are being reported, which needs to be separated from the hearsay of various second third fourth parties, such as yours.

There is no doubt in your mind that Chinese civilization came from Cumans Africans AMH New Jersey etc. but even Victor Mair doesn't agree.


Edited by literaryClarity - 12 May 2014 at 04:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 04:04
As I understand archaeology, the presence of palatial constructs distinguishes the elite from commoner and this permanently institutionalized social paradigm was also key in the set up of civilization.

http://www.asia.si.edu/explore/china/jades/culture.asp

Quote
Following study of the many remarkable remains associated with these Neolithic (or New Stone Age) peoples, including palace foundations, royal tombs, craft workshops, and sophisticated jades, archaeologists date the influential Liangzhu culture from 3300 to 2250 BCE.


In other words, monumental architecture but with the nuance that it was lived in and had imparted the social functions of state administration.


Edited by literaryClarity - 12 May 2014 at 04:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 04:15
There is no doubt in your mind that Chinese civilization came from Cumans Africans AMH New Jersey etc. but even Victor Mair doesn't agree.

1. I've never said that! And now you're reading my mind?

2. What I have said is that the Chinese people, until the contrary is proven, came from Africa originally, just like everyone else. Where the civilisation emerged is an entirely different matter. And upon what do you base your assertion that the Chinese civilisation began in 3000BC in Liangzhu?

3. For the third time, what is the source for your Path I and Path II?

4. Do you not understand the question?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 04:28
"As I understand archaeology, the presence of palatial constructs distinguishes the elite from commoner and this permanently institutionalized social paradigm was also key in the set up of civilization."

I don't necessarily agree that palatial constructions were an integral part of a culture becoming a civilisation.

There are many more aspects to civilisation than architecture, such as governance, laws, education, and so on.

Note I didn't include religion.

Now, will you please provide your source/s for Path I and Path II?

Or are they plagurised from someone elses work?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 04:44
I told you I don't have the archaeological background to collect all the necessary scientific data points to point out exactly how the archaeologists are creating the accounts out of.  They are using archaeological field surveys which take into account thousands of square miles of that I'm certain.  How they do that is something I wish to know myself.  Their discussions and analytical writings are more appropriately understood by laymen such as you and I, some I've gleamed from books, papers, journals, etc.  Sometimes they include charts and tables to outline their collected datapoints sometimes they don't.  If you are looking into a specific portion of Part I and Part II I can do that however but as of now I'd have to link you to a bunch of sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 04:47
I know there are many components to civilization.  I gave writing and architecture as only a couple examples.

A paper which shows palatial constructs particularly indicative of civilizational state manifestations.

http://www.academia.edu/397378/Primary_and_Secondary_States_in_Perspective_An_Integrated_Approach_to_State_Formation_in_the_Prehistoric_Aegean


Edited by literaryClarity - 12 May 2014 at 04:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 06:46
Governance laws education arts religion fit into an broad encompassing category in ancient China.  You can find out about it in KC Chang's "Art Myth and Ritual: The Path to Political Authority in Ancient China."  Notice that the orientation of keeping aspects of civilization's political authority would not only be based on utility such as law enforcement but also the ideological or coercive arts of law enforcement which makes religion (arguably an artform) cater to civilization's rise and maintenance indicative in the monumental architectures such as decorative palatial constructs, raised platforms, symmetrical laidout cityscapes, etc. These are goods that further relate to surplus, division of labor, allocation of labor, heirarchy, class differentiation, and so on.  These were present in Liangzhu's city state.

I didn't make the criteria for civilization on my own.  If it were up to me I'd actually make it so that civilization didn't start until you were sure you had measures installed which absolutely prevented self annihilation.  I think the human race is not actually yet civilized by my high standard because the atom bomb was not thwarted in the last stage of its construction.  Now anyone can have one through arms sales.  Civilization in my book would have to philologically entertain the idea that you actively forstall nuclear destruction through some permanent means of neutralizing such threats either actively or passively.  After all what good is a civilization which annihilates itself? or bothers to invent things whom other people can use to annihilate it.  Unfortunately since the definition of civilization does not rest in mine or your hands it was up to the archaeologists, sociologists, linguists, historical epistemologists, and epigraphic historians.


Edited by literaryClarity - 12 May 2014 at 06:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 07:19
LC:

Still you do not answer the question put to you!

Are you saying that the Essays Path I and Path II are entirely your own intellectual property?

Where did you get the information in both of those essays?

From the verbage and sentence construction in the essays, compared with your own posts, it appears to be that the Path I and Path II could be copied from another document. Is that the case?

If you in fact claim them to be of your own construct, will you please provide the sources from which the information was obtained. Don't bother telling me that it came from newspapers which you have read because I don't believe it.

"I think the human race is not actually yet civilized by my high standard."

Chortle, chortle! LOL


"because the atom bomb was not thwarted in the last stage of its construction."

So, if the Atomic Bomb had not have been built, we would have all been civilised?

What a quaint idea.LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 May 2014 at 20:08
When did I say that the contents of essays I and II are my property.  They are differing properties of the search for China's continuous civilization.  One was a broken path, the other a new path based on science.

I even gave a link to a recent one I've read which has to do with how differing stages of architecture indicate a chronology of civilizational stage.  Newly invented writing along the existence of palatial constructions are amongst the parameters which highly indicate a strongly consolidated primal civilization.  Datasets and chronological graphs were included.  I already told you sometimes charts and tables are included sometimes not. 

I didn't compile the essay using newspaper.  I compiled it based on papers and books which have defined civilization's scope for many areas of the world and also through understanding the work of Chinese archaeologists as they work in the field.

Why do you imply as though my idea of civilization wasn't an additive one.  On top of what archaeologists and other professionals have scientifically defined civilization to be I make my own standard on top of it just as you have done using subtractive means.  To you civilization means a hut because the presence of settlement means civilization.  But pretending our definitions are more qualifying than those made by scientific professionals doesn't seem relevant. Wouldn't you agree?


Edited by literaryClarity - 12 May 2014 at 20:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2014 at 04:45
LC:
OK, so you're saying that the documents Path I and Path II are your own intellectual property.
 
You're also saying that the work was a result of books and documents that you've read.
 
They're your theories, so why didn't you say that in the first place.
 
" But pretending our definitions are more qualifying than those made by scientific professionals doesn't seem relevant. Wouldn't you agree?"
 
I do agree, I have never intended that my theories should over ride scientific evidence where they differ.
But I'm still curious as to why you specify Liang Zhu in 3000 BC as the origins of the Chinese civilisation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2014 at 06:33
No I just got done saying they are not my property.  They are properties of the search for China's continuous civilization.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 May 2014 at 08:26
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

No I just got done saying they are not my property.  They are properties of the search for China's continuous civilization.
 
 
It's becoming more and more obvious that you don't understand what I'm asking you, so I don't see any point in pursuing the matter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 May 2014 at 20:22
You were asking me whether I plagarized the answer is still no.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2014 at 03:46
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

You were asking me whether I plagarized the answer is still no.
 
But I'm still curious as to why you specify Liang Zhu in 3000 BC as the origins of the Chinese civilisation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2014 at 09:39
The second path explains it.  I've yet to finish it entirely but it still involves the technical aspects of civilization and how we detect its continuity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 2014 at 12:52
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

The second path explains it.  I've yet to finish it entirely but it still involves the technical aspects of civilization and how we detect its continuity.
 
The OP wasn't about the continuity, it was about the beginning. I've yet to see your rationalisation for that.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2014 at 10:43
Beginning entails the detection of continuity up to that point, 5000 years ago, at least for Chinese civilization.


Edited by literaryClarity - 23 May 2014 at 10:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2014 at 13:58
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Beginning entails the detection of continuity up to that point, 5000 years ago, at least for Chinese civilization.
 
 
No it doesn't, beginning denotes the commencement, whether or not there become a continuum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2014 at 03:25
Something continuous had to have a beginning and that's what's being traced.  Even civilization.  Not talking about culture, talking about when literary clarity began.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2014 at 03:23
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Something continuous had to have a beginning and that's what's being traced.  Even civilization.  Not talking about culture, talking about when literary clarity began.
 
 
I tend to reject the word "beginning" when talking about civilisation, as I reject the allocation of a precise year.
 
Imo, civilisation "evolves" over a period of time, at what stage it begins is almost impossible to answer. For example, is it when the first village is built? The first church? or when the first laws were put in place. None of these happened over night. They evolved over decades or centuries, or even millennia.
 
Therefore, imo, to allocate an exact place is also fraught with danger. To suggest a region would be safer, as the ruins of town found so far, may not be the original site, nor do they have to have been built in the same year.
 
Granted, archaeology may show us that at a certain point in time a town or city existed, it may even show signs of a civilised culture, but it cannot tell us that it was the only place existing in that era, nor necessarily that it was the first. Later finds, as I've said before, can undo a lifetime of study.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2014 at 08:27
I think you are missing the point.  The "beginning" in the context of civilization means when a site, specifically a city state, began exhibiting conditions set forth by the defining criterion of civilization in general and not necessarily to the exact civilization being studied.  It is certainly not the same as distinguishing each trait of each locale of the panregion in which the civilization eventually takes hold in.  So it is not examining the cultural backdrop of the civilization per se.  The beginning of civilization is finite enough to pinpoint where it had happened though less exact in terms of when.
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 03:54
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

I think you are missing the point.  The "beginning" in the context of civilization means when a site, specifically a city state, began exhibiting conditions set forth by the defining criterion of civilization in general and not necessarily to the exact civilization being studied.  It is certainly not the same as distinguishing each trait of each locale of the panregion in which the civilization eventually takes hold in.  So it is not examining the cultural backdrop of the civilization per se.  The beginning of civilization is finite enough to pinpoint where it had happened though less exact in terms of when.
 
OK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote literaryClarity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 09:20
Comon toyomotor you know it better than anyone.  The most practical indicator comes from the fact that some people have their own writing systems and some do not.  Do we trace English to native Americans?
http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 2014 at 12:19
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Comon toyomotor you know it better than anyone.  The most practical indicator comes from the fact that some people have their own writing systems and some do not.  Do we trace English to native Americans?
 
No, we don't.
 
But language isn't static, nor is it personal.
 
It travels with the people, and can be adopted by other people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alpha NOVA Omega Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 03:05
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Comon toyomotor you know it better than anyone.  The most practical indicator comes from the fact that some people have their own writing systems and some do not.  Do we trace English to native Americans?

ANO has arrived. He is reunited with his master.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 03:36
Originally posted by Alpha NOVA Omega Alpha NOVA Omega wrote:

Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Comon toyomotor you know it better than anyone.  The most practical indicator comes from the fact that some people have their own writing systems and some do not.  Do we trace English to native Americans?

ANO has arrived. He is reunited with his master.
 
And who is your master ANO?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2014 at 04:19
Originally posted by literaryClarity literaryClarity wrote:

Comon toyomotor you know it better than anyone.  The most practical indicator comes from the fact that some people have their own writing systems and some do not.  Do we trace English to native Americans?


No. English language comes from Roman times, when the Barbarians living in the British Isles were tough to write by the Roman intellectuals.

But you can trace the constitution to Iroquois, as well as the customs to produce syrup and to make corn whisky. Ouch
Even more, the very idea of freedom may come from observing a free people like the American Indians and comparing them to the African slaves and the European serfs.




Edited by pinguin - 02 Jun 2014 at 04:20
A point of view from the antipodes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alpha NOVA Omega Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 02:19
literary clarity is ANO's master.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2014 at 02:37
Originally posted by Alpha NOVA Omega Alpha NOVA Omega wrote:

literary clarity is ANO's master.
 
That's all we need, two of them.Cry
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