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Society based on family and "Family Traps"

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farzad didehvar View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 Feb 2015 at 19:46
Families make a net in the society which provides the solidarity of that society as one of the most important factors besides some others, like nationalism.
This net could act as a trap too, similar to spider web.
So many times people is a part of this web and in the same time in a trap of the other part of this web.There is struggling to make these traps invisible, which could be considered as interesting.
Anyhow family relation is a local relation respect to some global relations,  like nation wide or international wide, similar to Academic and Political and some economic affairs.
In these societies even  when the system is not  a family  it goes to be family like and finally a family system.
In other words, entering the structures of families family relations in these areas could be fatal,
in addition to this fact that usually these affairs needs professional works and specialists.
These structures do not encourage creativity and do not support nationalism and no ideological point of views.Respect to new structures in modern world these structures remain as pygmies, although it could be solid.
Possibly what is  the most strange is, "how new structures were formed?"
Is "individualism" a key word? 
So, what about modern social structures in East Asia? 
In some countries there is a mixture of both types together(Possibly US)
How is it possible?Is this because of vast facilities that permit these systems do not conflict?
If this theory is true so when facilities goes to be  lesser and lesser it might be the conflicts starts.

As a conclusion, in some areas and subjects in society we should get rid of these family structures and relations,
in many academic, political and economical cases. Seemingly, it requires a cultural back ground based on consciousness of society and paying energy by constructing institutes who encourages people from different layers of society to go up the ladders of society.
There are some questions in the text which I like to know the other ideas. 
Farzad Didehvar
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2015 at 05:24
I remember some friends who were part of an extended family in a small town (US), when something adverse happened, the extended family tended to catch them from falling too much (net), but at the same time the extended family also prevented them from succeeding as well.  The "web" to which you were referring.  The web preventing them from succeeding was more a matter of their identity preventing them from getting beyond their status of rural poverty, than it was anyone or anything preventing their success.  They were intelligent individuals, but they could not so much imagine themselves out of their current (at that time) situation.  Most poverty in the US is white and rural, despite all the emphasis otherwise.

One thing, you can choose your friends, you cannot choose your family (although to some extent you can choose who you want to treat _as_ family).  This observation dates back to Plato.

John
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farzad didehvar View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farzad didehvar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb 2015 at 07:10
franciscosan

It is interesting that there are a large amount of similarity among different cultures and countries in this respect. Security and joys of a family has its own prices.Any way it limited people and put some limits on their freedom even in thinking.So they do not grow in this respect.
People who wishes to go further, either they should go out of this structure or show themselves bizarre or dump, to gain success is risky in these cases.
But the problem has two faces, when this mentality is in rural places and when it goes up to higher ranks.
In the second case, we have two systems which face each other and compete and combined, 

1. Based on families and related mentalities,
2. Based on cultural structures who tries to choose the best and to train specialists

In higher ranks, many problems are much more complicated to be solved by the first type of structure.Although in some problems, which we usually need direct and simpler actions and solidarity  it could solve problems even better(There are examples), in the other types of problems some times it is much better the problem do not be touched. Specially, when the problem is a complex problem which it needs the combinations of specialties.Even in the first types of problems it is possible leads us to fatal situations. In many countries, even modern ones, we have these experiences.
This situation should be changed.Family and the associated mentality should be used in its own place and be supported there.




Farzad Didehvar
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2015 at 02:52
I think that when you look at families and family loyalties, you're looking at very deep structures in the human psyche, going back tens if not hundreds of thousands of years.  It is important to realize that, when leaders go against that, they are experimenting with something that is not very well understood, even by specialists, or maybe especially by specialists who often have their own agenda about things.
On the societal level, I think that it is important to support families, although the definition of family over time changes.  On the individual level, well again friends are something you choose, family is not, and although it may be sad, there are times when it is best for an individual to choose to _not_ associate with their (biological) family, perhaps in the process choosing a set of friends that in many ways performs the family role.
I do not have much faith in psychology or sociology as far as understanding where people are and what they are doing with their lives.  Having said that, I am sure that there are plenty of psychologists and sociologists that have a good understanding of, for lack of a better term, human nature.  My own concentration is in philosophy, and I do have some respect for that social science called "the dismal science," economics.  I am not sure if it is the social sciences that you are thinking of, when you refer to "specialties."
Kind regards,
John
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farzad didehvar View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farzad didehvar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2015 at 17:12
No doubt this structure is a natural and normal form one, but there are decades and possibly centuries this natural form do not work.
This formation, gradually make an oligarchy with a few members and a rigid classification of society
which creation, novelty  and movements in it if it is not exactly zero, it will be near to it.
Any one will be encapsulate in in his own cell.
So by dying more general concepts(Like nationalism, internationalism concepts or a combination of them,...) although society in the first steps goes to be more solid but little by little it will loose its re flexibility, it means they will loose their ability to solve the problems of that society.
So, it will be fragile society, by some more serious and complex problems either it will collapsed or it fall in miser abilities.In the best case it will arise again, but by loosing energy and time and loosing the continuity of history.
The problem is in new era societies faces complex problems too much, so they need to motivate whole body of society as a whole.A society with monopolies of some families if it has not vast facilities it will
tied the others hand, and people loose their sense to the society and its problems, any one wishes to solve their own problem and at most their own family.In this situation people who thinks more general will be punished since they seem more odd and not in the direction of the others.
Usually this people are more sensitive and more critical, if there will be no system of both sides tolerance and literature of it they will be put aside, and more obedient people who are far from general concepts
goes up.As we said they have no pity to society as a whole, so the problems of society starts to be accumelated, and the ship of society goes to some  whirlpool.Disintegration.

Seemingly, the solution in the first level is having people by more sensitivities about more general concepts and the convenient combination of it besides having the sense and responsibility to solve problems to leads the first sense in more right and practical way.
Farzad Didehvar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2015 at 23:53
People want security for themselves, their family and friends, they also want freedom.  These two things can conflict and there is a saying, "those who trade freedom for security will soon find they have neither."  But in trying to get security, often people will impose on others.  They look at it as a "zero sum game," meaning "if we have something, others can't have it."  "If others have something, we can't have it."  In trying to have absolute control of their own lives, they deny _others_ control of _their_ own lives.  To some extent this fascination with control will be tolerated, but if it gets excessive, people will get restless.  And if people get restless, that restlessness will destabilize the situation and _no_one_ will be in control, until a balance is reached.  Security is necessary, but it can stagnate and freeze people out of having a meaningful life in society.  Freedom is necessary, but it needs wisdom and intelligence to direct it, otherwise it will be foolhardy.  We need freedom to start a business or find a beloved.  We don't need freedom if it means we catch e-bola or commit crimes.  
I have mentioned the "zero-sum game," but there is another model of profit.  "All boats float at high tide," meaning that things don't have to be "either/or."  Someone may be get wealthier, but that doesn't have to mean that someone else is getting poorer, if the entire economy is growing.  The fact that other people can participate in society means that they are able to pursue their needs, as they see fit.  The fact that they can participate means that civil unrest or, worse, civil war is not a solution that anyone needs to embrace.  Their freedom contributes to our freedom, ours contributes to theirs, if it is followed in wisdom, and if we don't get lost in absolute control.
I hope this is interesting, I admit that I am not so much responding to your points, as I am reacting to their "general direction."  If you feel that it is too much off topic, let me know.  Also if you want me to expand on anything let me know as well.
Sincerely,
John
  
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farzad didehvar View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farzad didehvar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 2015 at 05:37
I think your points are quite true.The balance between security, freedom and other ideological points in a society is a quite important matter. Specially when there are some cracks in society which makes far the society from a homogeneous one.
When there are different interpretation of these concepts among generations and classes of society.
Concepts like freedom, justice despite of security and solidarity are so vague and in the same time so
important concept. Often, it is much better to speak about terms like feeling freedom, or feeling justice as relative terms instead of justice and freedom as somehow absolute concepts, if it is possible in the subject.It makes the discussion harder and harder.
One approach is to see the problem more in a pragmatic way, for example we need freedom for this level of progress.Of course considering this way is not sufficient but in some aspects it is essential.
The point is applying "Family net" in some places and key points makes society inefficient in a level that is not tolerable for new world, and so many time it leads us to chaos as you explained in the last post.
Farzad Didehvar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 2015 at 04:02
Freedom is often thought as the absence of something, freedom from hunger, from pain, from censorship.  Freedom is a force away from something, it a negative force, or rather, an absence of a negative force.  I like your idea of "feeling" it, although I am not sure I would consider it "relative."  Our perception of it is limited, and so it is not absolute in this world, we imperfectly realize justice or freedom in our world.
I'm not sure what I think of progress, I think that we, humans, are gaining many things these days, but we are also loosing many things.  In areas we progress, but at the same time, in other areas we forget who we are.  Are we more advanced than the medieval Europeans who built those magnificent Cathedrals, or how about the Muslims and Alahambra in Spain?  We have germ theory and other wonderful developments that have totally changed how humans live, but artistically we probably could not produce those masterpieces of architecture, even if we wanted to do so.  
Some people are worried about too much efficiency.  That society is like a machine that is merciless to people who make a mistake with it.  Like a lawnmower that can cut off a finger or toe if you are not careful with it.  This is a concern in the West, like America and Europe, we see in response to this punk "music" and death metal and black metal, kind of a rebellion against the "machine."  There is a concern that there is too much order and putting everything in its place.  Now it may be that the people who are complaining about too much efficiency are bored and spoiled, nevertheless, there is that concern.
On the other hand, in Somalia or Bangladesh or Bolivia, there is not enough order and there is too much corruption.  The lack of an efficient system of society means that people get sick or face famine, and die.  Society is not meeting the needs of its people and so that "family net" can be very important even though that means giving preferential treatment based on family and personal connection instead of going through private business.  That is corruption, but when you got the tiger by the tail, it is hard to let go.

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