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South American Megaliths

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2017 at 17:46
Vanuatu

Yes, but isn't it a pity that the architecture was confined to royalty, the Church and the upper classes.

Basic sanitation, as practised by the Romans may have prevented thousands of deaths over the years, caused, basically, by lack of sanitation procedures,such as personal hygeine, using the public streets as sewers and so on.

France, for example, was far ahead of England in this regard, but the poms thought thatby regular bathing, their immune systems would shut down-and no-one attempted to convice them otherwise appparently.

And as for Cathedrals, habitats of rogues and centres of scandal, IMHO.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar 2017 at 00:38
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu

Yes, but isn't it a pity that the architecture was confined to royalty, the Church and the upper classes.

Basic sanitation, as practised by the Romans may have prevented thousands of deaths over the years, caused, basically, by lack of sanitation procedures,such as personal hygeine, using the public streets as sewers and so on.

France, for example, was far ahead of England in this regard, but the poms thought thatby regular bathing, their immune systems would shut down-and no-one attempted to convice them otherwise appparently.

And as for Cathedrals, habitats of rogues and centres of scandal, IMHO.



Imagine the peasant living on the Moors in mud and thatch houses. Not a spot of daylight and a smokey hearth killing you as much as it keeps you alive. Bandits come for you, nothing to be done about it, just suffer and suffer more. 
The Britons knew that water could carry disease, they didn't understand it all obviously but they tried to keep their clothes clean and scented themselves with spices. It was undesirable to be unclean, only unavoidable for common people. 
It's not so different from today is it? That the wealth of the world moves along as though the suffering of most the worlds people does not exist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 01:19
An ancient Greek wise man (maybe Epimenides?) called members of the same household, "sharers of smoke."  Hillary Clinton was in many ways shut out of state business by an active Obama White House, but one thing she did (which is not really a Secretary of State thing) is oversee the distribution of smokeless cooking stoves to 3rd world nations, because of the respiratory problems caused to women, by cooking.  Of course, George W Bush made AIDS in Africa a big issue, and treated it as a medical issue.  You don't very much hear fundamentalists going on about AIDS as a curse against the gays anymore.  CDC and other world disease agencies were on top of of Ebola fairly quickly.  George W Bush increased funding for the CDC in particular, and science (NASA) in general during his tenure.  Unlike some people.  I don't know what President Obama's record on science was, except that we have to rely on the Russians to get to the space station.  President Clinton cut things, and President George W Bush, built them back.  One should give credit where credit is due.
But I think that it is different today, than it used to be.  At one time, the first world could invade and impose order upon a region.  Can't do that today, nor would we want to.  People around the world these days are digesting news and stories from everywhere else.  They are saying, "why can we not have that."  But, at the same time there may be a cost for that, something they don't want to, or can't give up.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 01:32
franciscosan

But we've raced away from the OP!!

To recap, I mentioned the South American megaliths, and all associated civil engineering works as examples of the skills and knowledge which were held at the time, but were not progressed and which did not spread to other parts of South America, let alone to North America. Why?

I mentioned the Roman works in England, and the fact that when the Romans left, the technology apparently went with them. Why?

The great civil engineering accomplshments of the Mesopotamian region did not spread across northern Asia and Eastern Europe. Why?

And, in frustration I asked if there were no reasonable explanations why these technologies weren't taken up across the Americas, the UK and Europe, why?

References to space technology don't address the questions asked.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 14:16
Quote Hi caldrail. Strange things exist right here on earth. Why discount aliens? Did you hear the news this past week? Small star showing the pull of 7 planets 40 light years away. I don't discount the visitor possibility.

Sorry for the late reply.

Yes, strange things occur, but that's because a reasonable explanation is lacking, so people insert their favourite alternative - that behaviour is source of religion in human society. I attended a lecture not so long ago by a team of paranormal investigators and they described the situation as only 5% of their cases showed any strangeness. For instance, a public house complained of ghosts on their cellar. On investigation, it transpired that passing vehicles on the road outside were generating air pressure inequalities that caused the bumps in the night. The connection wasn't obvious at first, but ultimately explainable.

I was once on a course with a lad from a farming family. He told me one night the Police called at their farm and told them they'd received reports of strange activity up on the hill. The Police seemed unwilling to investigate, so the young lad got into a tractor and trundled up the farm track toward the hill in middle of the windy night. He too saw flashes of light and got very worried about what he might find. It turned out to be a hi-vis vest on a scarecrow, fluttering in the wind and reflecting moonlight or headlamps.

As attractive as the idea of alien visitation is, there is not a shred of credible evidence for it anywhere. Almost all the depictions of ancient cultures said to show aliens or their technology is simply a misinterpretation, placing modern perspective on something that has a different or completely lost meaning. The Maya Tree Of Life, for instance, a symbolic image, has been promoted by Daniken and similar writers as some form of rocket bike - never mind the rider has zero protection, environmental support, or even straps to hold him on. Never mind that not the slightest inkling of such technology has ever come to light in that region.

One theory has the Maya as survivors of an alien space crash, hence their long term calendar, waiting for a rescue mission which - gasp - was due to arrive in December 2012. They seem to stopped for lunch on the way. But of course the Maya appear to be perfectly human, no links with alien societies, and the idea of their calendar was linked to their religion as much as astronomy.

As it happens, I don't discount the idea of alien visitation - if it's actually possible to travel within a reasonable timescale between star systems, then we have to assume that somebody might have already succeeded, but until we find actual evidence of that - it remains speculation, and when that speculation is used both to explain something mundane in our observable world or worse still, to promote someone's individual beliefs and agenda - sorry - that's a NO.

Incidentially you might like to know that a theory exists as to why we haven't found any signals from alien civilisations. This idea emerged in the seventies and is largely forgotten, but imagine a paranoid race that builds a weapon to destroy potential rivals. A machine capable of destroying the eco-system of a planet - not entirely impossible even with our own level of technology. SO these things are wandering around out there homing in on signals from newly emerged civilisations to destroy them. And we've been broadcasting electromagnetic signals for something a bit longer than a century, which means if one of those machines happens to be passing within a hundred light years or so... Maybe you should invest in a nuke shelter too? :D
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 19:03
The killing machines galactically on the loose are called Berserkers, an area of science fiction popularized by Fred Saberhagen.  Star Trek's 'the Planet Killer' is an example of these.  Of course, it could be that after a certain level of technology, they use fiber optics and point to point communications lasers.

I think there is a little bit of disparagement of "primitive" cultures when people can't imagine them creating such monuments as the Mayan pyramids, it is not exactly the same as racism, but is akin to it.
It "has" to be aliens, because how could such "primitives" do such things?  _We_ "obviously" could do such things, _if_ we wanted to, but we don't....  Personally, I don't think we could, or at least not without reverse engineering what they did.  But it matches our ego to think we could (if we wanted to).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 00:29
But still no answers to the OP question.

Why?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 00:43
Why? what?  I looked back at the first post of this thread, and I see no "why" question there.  I recommend to you that you use complete sentences in describing "why?" and don't make people look back on previous posts in order to figure out what you are asking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 2017 at 05:17
franciscosan
Question from the OP.

Quote Does anyone on this forum have any idea where the ideas for their construction came from?

And as for the question, "Why?"-if you had been following the thread you would have found that I have asked why civil engineering works and architecture ideas (a) didn't last in certain countries/communities, and (b) what rational explanation is there for this phenomena.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 02:10
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

[quote]



Incidentially you might like to know that a theory exists as to why we haven't found any signals from alien civilisations. This idea emerged in the seventies and is largely forgotten, but imagine a paranoid race that builds a weapon to destroy potential rivals. A machine capable of destroying the eco-system of a planet - not entirely impossible even with our own level of technology. SO these things are wandering around out there homing in on signals from newly emerged civilisations to destroy them. And we've been broadcasting electromagnetic signals for something a bit longer than a century, which means if one of those machines happens to be passing within a hundred light years or so... Maybe you should invest in a nuke shelter too? :D

Right! But if there are Berserkers out there and they catch Hitler's speil they may want to meet us, lol.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 02:24
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


I think there is a little bit of disparagement of "primitive" cultures when people can't imagine them creating such monuments as the Mayan pyramids, it is not exactly the same as racism, but is akin to it.
It "has" to be aliens, because how could such "primitives" do such things?  _We_ "obviously" could do such things, _if_ we wanted to, but we don't....  Personally, I don't think we could, or at least not without reverse engineering what they did.  But it matches our ego to think we could (if we wanted to).

You see I don't have any doubts that once the humans had modern physiology that their capacity for intelligence would match ours.  It's only a question of what you must know to survive. 

The Yanomami in South America have encyclopedic understanding of their natural world, seasonal changes, rivers, animals etc. In fact there was a group of Indians who recently made an attempt to educate us about how we are destroying the world. 

It's the failure of modern science to provide a link from hominid to human that makes Von Danekin such an entertainer writer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 02:46
People forget, entropy prevails.  When you have a change in communications media, you loose things, how many movies get lost in the shuffle from film, to tape, to DVD?  The same happened in antiquity from the transition from scrolls to codices, a lot was lost.  It is rather easy for things get lost in the transition of things.  How many silent films were lost, even famous ones, in less than 100 years.  We have a list of Euripides plays, and we have a list of what plays of Euripides were in the Library of Alexandria.  Half of the list never made it through the 100, 150 years until the Library was opened.  Things get lost.  I think you are asking, "why do they get lost?"  Well, because people don't value them, because they are more work then people think they are worth.  Because the right combination came into existence to allow them to do something wonderful, and then that right combination gets disrupted.  Things change, people aren't as educated as they used to be, they have different priorities.  Civilization is a lot more tenuous than you think.  There are technological wonders that we don't know how to imitate.  granulation on gold work, _and_ we have their examples of it so we know it can be done.  Machu Picchu probably couldn't be built today, too dangerous, too many people falling off the side.
Does that help?  I don't really know what kind of answer you expect.
Just because you can articulate a question, doesn't mean that it can be answered to your satisfaction.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 2017 at 04:23
People forget and oh how they remember. Anthropologists lump together the millinarianism of Christianity with the Melanesian cargo cults. Oppressed or disenfranchised people often envision a future when a returning hero bestows a bounty upon the faithful.
Suppose there was a civilization in South America when the Pacific Islanders landed. The Haplo group X found among the Basque and the *Melanesians* could have been advanced in ecstatic trance experience. 
*Native Americans*


This is a universally similar perception of geometric shapes, color patterns, animals and animals turning into humans, often with regional culture infused. It has been achieved through chemical use. Rhythmic drumming, chanting and contemplative states could induce the experience, Buddhists would agree. 
A sense of being 'watched over' is commonly noted by ancient and modern accounts.

When Einstein (and others, Crick)  did his famous thought experiments he accessed information in an unconventional way. Maybe that was key for some civilizations. Angkor Wat in Cambodia is also a marvel and a mystery.


Edited by Vanuatu - 26 Mar 2017 at 05:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar 2017 at 17:16
Communication and patronage. Without telling people about your discoveries - and in some societies it could get you horribly executed - no-one learns about it. There's no cross-fertilisation of ideas. On the other hand, without patronage and investment from the wealthy classes (such as happened in ancient Rome), no-one sees invention as a worthwhile career path and invention remains a localised and temporary phenomenon linked to bright (and sometimes courageous) people here and there.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2017 at 04:08
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

 

But the Normans had experienced Roman occupation, and all of the English scholars, artisans etc weren't killed off. So my question remains, why?

Our friend franciscosan has provided, among some extensive verbage, some explanation, but still doesn't provide the explanation.

As I've written before, if there are no explanations why architecture, civil engineering etc provided by the Romans, wasn't taken up and modernised over the centuries, OK, let's have some links to expert opinions who say that..

Bear in mind that, although the Romans had bath houses and health spas, in the middle and lower English socio-economic levels, an inside toilet was not common in every house, nor were bathrooms, until years after WW2.

These things have exercised my mind for many years.



Certainly the cathedrals are evidence that Britons used a creative palette and specialized skills. Masons, sculptors all manner of artisans, heavy laborers. Castles, Abbeys, Priories..ruins dating (some lost and forgotten) to 1160- as you say the Normans and William C. Good article-

http://In 1528 Simon Fish published A Supplication for the Beggars. He argued that the clergy should spend their money in the relief of the poor and not amass it for monks to pray for souls. (13) Fish claimed that monks were "ravenous wolves" who had "debauched 100,000 women". He added that the monks were "the great scab" that would not allow the Bible to be published in "your mother tongue". (14) George M. Trevelyan has argued that this work had an impact on the thinking of Henry VIII: "The conclusion reached by the pamphleteer (Simon Fish) is that the clergy, especially the monks and friars, should be deprived of their wealth for the benefit of the King and Kingdom, and made to work like other men; let them also be allowed to marry and so be induced to leave other people's wives alone. Such crude appeals to lay cupidity, and such veritable coarse anger at real abuses uncorrected down the centuries, had been generally prevalent in London under Wolsey's regime, and at his fall such talk became equally fashionable at Court." (15)

The architecture of cathedrals is based on the old Roman basilica. The earliest Christian churches were a lot like Roman basilicas. But the biggest cathedrals are bigger and higher than the biggest Roman basilicas. Early medieval architects built cathedrals in the Romanesque style, and then later (beginning about 1100 AD) they built cathedrals in the Gothic style. You'll find some examples of Romanesque and Gothic cathedrals on the Romanesque and Gothic pages.
toyomotor, 
After the 2nd Punic war Rome built many large walls and fortifications in So Gaul capital Narbo now Narbonne, France. These walls and forts were maintained up until the 10th and 11th century when forts became settlements known as the bourgs. These fortifications grew into the castles of the Languedoc - Albigensian Crusades (1209-1300). After waves of invasions over the centuries and continual repair the Tower at Carcassonne, for example, retains the hallmarks of the Gallo-Roman defense design of the late Empire. 


Hadrian's Wall 

Following the Roman withdrawal, large portions of the wall were carried off for personal building projects by the local inhabitants. Huge sections were removed to provide paving for British troops heading north on muddy tracks to quell the Jacobite Uprising of 1745 CE.  Hadrian’s Wall may have disappeared entirely were it not for the efforts of one man, the antiquarian John Clayton (1792-1890 CE) who, in 1834 CE, began buying the land around the wall in an effort to preserve it. Clayton’s excavations and enthusiasm for the site kept what remains of Hadrian’s Wall intact and, in 1987 CE, it was declared a World Heritage Site by UNESCO. Today it is under the care of English Heritage commission and is cared for largely by volunteers who recognize its immense historical significance.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2017 at 04:24
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Communication and patronage. Without telling people about your discoveries - and in some societies it could get you horribly executed - no-one learns about it. There's no cross-fertilisation of ideas. On the other hand, without patronage and investment from the wealthy classes (such as happened in ancient Rome), no-one sees invention as a worthwhile career path and invention remains a localised and temporary phenomenon linked to bright (and sometimes courageous) people here and there.

I believe you told us that you studied engineering. Are you referring to the Masons when you mention horrible executions?


Edited by Vanuatu - 29 Mar 2017 at 04:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2017 at 13:57
Vanuatu wrote
Quote After the 2nd Punic war Rome built many large walls and fortifications in So Gaul capital Narbo now Narbonne, France. These walls and forts were maintained up until the 10th and 11th century when forts became settlements known as the bourgs. These fortifications grew into the castles of the Languedoc - Albigensian Crusades (1209-1300). After waves of invasions over the centuries and continual repair the Tower at Carcassonne, for example, retains the hallmarks of the Gallo-Roman defense design of the late Empire.

Yes, I'm aware of the many ancient buildings which have survived centuries of war etc. But, to harp on the subject, my mind is exercised by the of why of the so many brilliant architectural and civil works were abandoned, or simply ignored over the centuries.

I understand that, in many cases, those structures, buildings etc. had little meaning to the average person, or more likely those people lacked understanding of just what almost miraculous works were available for them to use and to expand upon.


Edited by toyomotor - 09 Apr 2017 at 09:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2017 at 04:00
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Vanuatu wrote
Quote After the 2nd Punic war Rome built many large walls and fortifications in So Gaul capital Narbo now Narbonne, France. These walls and forts were maintained up until the 10th and 11th century when forts became settlements known as the bourgs. These fortifications grew into the castles of the Languedoc - Albigensian Crusades (1209-1300). After waves of invasions over the centuries and continual repair the Tower at Carcassonne, for example, retains the hallmarks of the Gallo-Roman defense design of the late Empire.

Yes, I'm aware of the many ancient buildings which have centuries of war etc. But, to harp on the subject, my mind is exercised by the of why of the so many brilliant architectural and civil works were abandoned, or simply ignored over the centuries.

I understand that, in many cases, those structures, buildings etc. had little meaning to the average person, or more likely those people lacked understanding of just what almost miraculous works were available for them to use and to expand upon.

I just thought it was a nice example of the persistence of the Roman influence. It's a very beautiful region and the hilltop forts are spectacular. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2017 at 08:33
I hear that there are a lot of Romans in Italy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2017 at 14:32
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

I hear that there are a lot of Romans in Italy.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/345

You'll love the cathedral
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2017 at 02:07
I quit!!

It seems that there are no answers to my questions regarding the ancient architecture and civil engineering as constructed by South Americans, Egyptians and the Romans.

The technology appears to have been lost, for whatever reason, and then "re-invented" centuries later.

As for those posts which have mentioned aliens as being responsible for of these "miracles", I'm certainly not going to say that it's impossible.

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Everything is possible,
Except the impossible,
And we're working on that.

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2017 at 02:11

On TV right now, there is a Father Brown Mystery.  In it in the '20s or 30s, an Anglican priest plays detective.  GK Chesterton wrote them.  In the Father Brown series it is typical that the more "rationalistic" detectives or others, because they don't understand what it is happening, jump to the conclusion that whatever is happening must be supernatural, whereas the priest assumes a (and figures out the) rational explanation.   Now Father Brown believes in the miracles of the Bible, but that is the realm of theology, and in the everyday world, we should assume a rational explanation even if we don't necessarily understand.  God gave us reason, and reason will account for 99.99999999999999999 % of everything, maybe not yesterday, or even today, but for all time.  Same is true with Mayan or Incan Temples, you may not be able to _imagine_ how men made them, but whether you can imagine or not, doesn't mean they weren't made by men.  

You can quit if you want, Toyomotor, but you won't get back your deposit, and we won't give you a good reference if you don't give 2 week noticeWink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 2017 at 08:52
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


On TV right now, there is a Father Brown Mystery.  In it in the '20s or 30s, an Anglican priest plays detective.  GK Chesterton wrote them.  In the Father Brown series it is typical that the more "rationalistic" detectives or others, because they don't understand what it is happening, jump to the conclusion that whatever is happening must be supernatural, whereas the priest assumes a (and figures out the) rational explanation.   Now Father Brown believes in the miracles of the Bible, but that is the realm of theology, and in the everyday world, we should assume a rational explanation even if we don't necessarily understand.  God gave us reason, and reason will account for 99.99999999999999999 % of everything, maybe not yesterday, or even today, but for all time.  Same is true with Mayan or Incan Temples, you may not be able to _imagine_ how men made them, but whether you can imagine or not, doesn't mean they weren't made by men.  

You can quit if you want, Toyomotor, but you won't get back your deposit, and we won't give you a good reference if you don't give 2 week noticeWink

A man's gotta realize his limitations.
Dirty Harry 


franciscosan

Only quitting this thread, not the forum.
I respectfully, and with great regret give you 14 calendar days notice of my intention to seperate my self from this thread. Unless, that is, you could cut me some slack and give me some answers as to why the various technologies didn't survive and improve over the centuries.
Yours faithfully....etc. etc.Wink


Edited by toyomotor - 09 Apr 2017 at 09:54
God created 2nd Lieutenants for the amusement of Senior NCO's.
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caldrail View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 2017 at 10:55
Quote I believe you told us that you studied engineering. Are you referring to the Masons when you mention horrible executions?

Definitely not. The influence of Free Masonry is marginal despite a lot of paranoia and urban legend. Executions were more to do with religion, with science seen as a sort of potential parallel to the 'Apple of Knowledge' idea maintained by Christian teaching, a transgression of deific rights over creation and invention, and a suppression of free thinking in favour of obedient conformity. Islam had no such qualms in previous eras, with middle eastern countries - especially Syria - hosting some very advanced ideas. Of course things have changed a little since then.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 hours 38 minutes ago at 04:12
Indigenous South Americans have generational family histories that tell of these people going into the jungle to get away from slavers at the turn of the century. Now many are coming out and making "First Contact" because they cannot sustain themselves or no longer want to be isolated. Some have talked about having family members shot by land developers and how they now wanted clothes and feel embarrassed to be naked.
There isn't much jungle left, certainly the ancient South Americans would have disappeared into the jungle if they were mistreated. I wonder if the dispersal of family groups will be analyzed genetically. 

The root of all desires is the one desire: to come home, to be at peace. -Jean Klein
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