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Soviet craft explode in North Korea

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 00:13
North Korea believes in Machiavelli's old adage that it is better to be feared than to be loved.  Is there anything that comes from North Korea that is not poisoned with bile?  I guess she has some natural resources, but not so much to be exceptionally gifted in that respect.  I never thought of diplomatic relations between North Korea and other countries, but with this assassination of the ruler's half-brother in Malaysia through the use of VX agent, I guess there is a chill between Malaysia and North Korea.  A few individuals are holed up in the North Korean Embassy, wanted for 'questioning' by Malaysia.  In retaliation North Korea is detaining Malaysian citizens from leaving their country.  Why would anyone want to be in North Korea in the first place?  Not much to love there, is there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 00:44
franciscosan

Sorry, can't see the relevance to the OP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 00:55
The relevance is that North Korea is in the News, and it would be nice to start up some old threads and get some more traffic on the website.  The relevance is also to what was in the thread immediately before my new post.  But no, it doesn't hit the topic squarely on the head of the nail.

Do you have anything to add on North Korea?  If not that is okay, but you might try to get the ball rolling, here or somewhere else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2017 at 03:59
franciscosan:-

I've raised the subject of North Korea in the past under the Heading of "Crazy Kim Jong Un".

My views haven't changed. North Korea is very poorly led by a tyranical meglomaniac who rose to the top purely on the fact that he was the previous leaders son. He has no apparent ability to lead or direct a country.

His execution of administration members for the most trivial of reasons should not be tolerated, and I'm very surprised that there hasn't been some sort of uprising, although the North Korean people have been conditioned by at least two generations of lunacy.

I've said in the past that Kim is capable of sparking a major conflict in the region by his firing of missiles towards Japan, and his threats against just about everybody in the region. I don't think that his former best friends, China, have much time for him either now due to his instability. I don't know the North Korean/Russian relationship, perhaps you could expand on that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar 2017 at 09:35
I read a media report todays which claims that a Chinese official has called on both North Korea and the USA to take a step back and try and work out differences through diplomatic channels.

The Chinese official adds that he believes that the continual animosity between the two could lead to a regional war.

Meanwhile, it seems that Russia is still providing North Korea with modern, sophisticated armaments.

From http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-39214525
 
Quote US officials have dismissed China's suggestion that North Korea could halt its missile and nuclear test in exchange for a suspension of US military activity in the region.

The US state department said it was not "a viable deal" while the UN ambassador said North Korea was not "rational".

China's suggestion came after North Korea launched four ballistic missiles,breaking international sanctions.

Meanwhile the US has begun deploying a missile defence shield in South Korea.

It is also conducting its annual large-scale drills with the South Korean military, which routinely infuriate North Korea.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 01:40
So, a piece of Russian technology explodes in North Korea!

The rocket was supplied to North Korea by Russia, but, I wonder, is it possible that the Russians, while appearing to be aiding North Korea, are really trying to slow it down by supplying North Korea with dud rockets?

They wouldn't do that you say? Oh yes they would. Two points-one is that Russia is notorious for it's lack of precision in manufacturing, quality control. The other point is that, having suspect rockets in their arsenal, Russia would rather sell them to North Korea than risk using them and being seen to fail yet again.

Could it be.....?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2017 at 23:27
No, fat chance, it is not likely.  On the other hand, I am sure that North Korean credit is not good for making many purchases, cash on the barrelhead for older technology, which being older has somewhat of a track record.  Then the North Koreans work off of those designs, and modify it.  I think Russian guidance systems have traditionally been behind that of the US, I imagine their rockets work fairly well, but of course, stuff gets old and wears out.  Scuds were a pretty tried, and true technology, they went up! then down! then boom!  as long as you are not too particular about where. I think the Korean missiles are developments off of Scuds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 2017 at 05:46
Quote No, fat chance, it is not likely.

Oh, and why is that?

Because Russia has always been upfrront and honest in it's dealings with other countries?

Because, with the massive armaments stockpile it has, it wouldn't take advantage of a country like North Korea which is embargoed by most nations?

Because it couldn't deflect blame for defective equipment on the end user?
 
I'm not so sure, and what could North Korea do if it was shown to have purchased defective equipment?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 01:50
North Korea, in defiance of the United Nations and of advice from it's neighbours, continues to fire off rockets with the intent of intimidating South Korea and others it considers to be enemies.

Many of the rockets have exploded in mid-air shortly after takeoff. 

I wonder if these were home built rockets, or were they also supplied by Russia. And if they were, is the Fat Kid getting a little frustrated with his friends defective weapons? If they were home built, I reckon there'd be some anxious heads in North Korea, as Kim has a reputation of executing those who displease him.

What is being done about Russia supplying North Korea with this type of weaponry anyway?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 04:14
There have been suggestions that the NoKo missiles have been interfered with. China could turn off the lights on NoKo, why not slow down the missile launches? 

Trump isn't telling China what to do but he's positioning  them to make the call on NoKo and act on KJU instead of US. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2017 at 07:44
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

There have been suggestions that the NoKo missiles have been interfered with. China could turn off the lights on NoKo, why not slow down the missile launches? 

Trump isn't telling China what to do but he's positioning  them to make the call on NoKo and act on KJU instead of US. 

1. I wouldn't be surprised if the missiles had been nobbled.

2. China most certainly could snuff NoKo, and nobbling the nukes is a good idea.

3. DJR and Xi Jinping have possibly struck an accord, on the QT of course. It seems the Mr Xi is growing more frustrated with KJU than ever, and therefore more likely to take action. His ordering of less coal from NoKo will hurt, but it's the people I feel sorry for, they suffer, KJU doesn't.


Edited by toyomotor - 30 Apr 2017 at 07:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 03:35
The world knows about this suffering and it knew about the concentration camps of WW2 before US entered the war. How do we rationalize an appeasement policy towards KJU? Don't we share a collective guilt for the last thirty years of looking the other way? 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 04:01
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

The world knows about this suffering and it knew about the concentration camps of WW2 before US entered the war. How do we rationalize an appeasement policy towards KJU? Don't we share a collective guilt for the last thirty years of looking the other way? 

Many are the sins of man.

It has been said that all that is necessary for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. And that's exactly what they've done for generations. Appeasement you say? I call it cowardly self interest.

Of course we share a collective guilt, time for the wailing, weeping, wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth to stop, or at least pause, and for the good ment to get off their bums and do something.

Likely? Nope!

Maybe there's hope for the New World Order yet.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2017 at 23:38
In America, there is what is called the armchair quarterback.  He always knows what plays the football team should have done.  Or you can call it a backseat driver.  Twenty-twenty hindsight.

Some people don't seem to understand that resources are limited and that because of that you have to pick your fights.  They seem to believe that we have infinite potential and that everything will come easily if we just wish it to happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2017 at 02:38
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In America, there is what is called the armchair quarterback.  He always knows what plays the football team should have done.  Or you can call it a backseat driver.  Twenty-twenty hindsight.

Some people don't seem to understand that resources are limited and that because of that you have to pick your fights.  They seem to believe that we have infinite potential and that everything will come easily if we just wish it to happen.

Haven't you gone just a little off topic here?

But, I suppose you were led.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2017 at 03:37
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In America, there is what is called the armchair quarterback.  He always knows what plays the football team should have done.  Or you can call it a backseat driver.  Twenty-twenty hindsight.

Some people don't seem to understand that resources are limited and that because of that you have to pick your fights.  They seem to believe that we have infinite potential and that everything will come easily if we just wish it to happen.

Is it a crime to acknowledge what we should have done? Or do you just say to hell with it, let's make the same mistake again and again. Definition of insanity.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2017 at 06:07
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In America, there is what is called the armchair quarterback.  He always knows what plays the football team should have done.  Or you can call it a backseat driver.  Twenty-twenty hindsight.

Some people don't seem to understand that resources are limited and that because of that you have to pick your fights.  They seem to believe that we have infinite potential and that everything will come easily if we just wish it to happen.

Is it a crime to acknowledge what we should have done? Or do you just say to hell with it, let's make the same mistake again and again. Definition of insanity.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2017 at 03:37
What do you mean, what we should have done?  For every action there is potentially a benefit, and potentially a cost.  I think that you are underestimating the cost for intervention in North Korea.  We can't follow through for Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan, why do you think we have attention span to deal dealing with North Korea?  We start something, and generally don't follow through.  Or maybe you just think it is a matter of dropping a few bombs?

We have been kicking the can down the street, putting off dealing with it, which in itself is a way of dealing with it.  Maybe we need to deal with it now, but I sure as hell hope that President Trump is listening to the experts rather than the armchair quarterbacks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2017 at 05:36
franciscosan

"All that is required for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing" and-
"When history is ignored, it's bound to repeat itself."

OK, so we can't undo the past, but we shouldn't put our heads in the sand and pretend that we did all that we could in 1951, because, as history has shown, we didn't. And why shouldn't we acknowledge that fact?

Sure, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, our war planners know that, but sometimes the political decision is to cut and run. The humanitarian decision may well have been to stay and fight.

I find your comment about attention span insulting to those who have gone to fight, and those who are currently fighting to make the world a better place. It's a matter of political will, start  the ball game and play it to the final whistle.

Putting off difficult decisions has a nasty habit of coming back and biting you on the bum.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 00:14
I find that the American public has a very short attention span.  They don't seem able to take an extended war, probably because only one part of society is truly engaged in the war, and the rest go on, as if everything is normal.  I do not think that it is merely a failure of the leadership to explain the necessity of the war.  It is not the warriors that have a short attention.

You're right, we could have gotten into a war with China, instead of just a war with "volunteers."  We could have nuked China like McArthur wanted.  We could have gotten into war with Russia.  Truman could have just let McArthur's insubordination go, thus threatening the civilian leadership of the military in the US.
I still think that this is a matter of 20/20 hindsight.  McArthur was warned that if he pressed to the Yalu, the Chinese would get involved, he ignored the warning and the Chinese "volunteers' got involved.  That is a mistake that could have been handled better, but again 20/20 hindsight.  As far as not doing everything we "could have," do you have something concrete in mind?  We could do the Macarena but I don't think it would be effective.  Governments like North Korea have no problem with fighting a war that will kill 10-20% of their population off.  In itself, that is unacceptable to us, let alone the casualties it would cause us.

In the 80s people were scared of Reagan and the MAD doctrine, they were like 'we gotta do something!' little did they understand that something was being done, and in the HW Bush administration, the Soviet Union collapsed, partially because of what Reagan and others had done.

Of course, the 38th parallel is a wonderful nature preserve, so there are bonuses to everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 02:51
franciscosan

Ah, I see it now. You're joking, right?

I didn't mention a war with China, I'm talking a push through North Korea to the point where they had to surrender. Deal with China diplomatically and edge Russia out of it.

As for Reagan, I thought that the American people were somewhat invigorated by Ronny Rockets' display of strength. And as you wrote, a lot of behind the scenes actions helped undermine Russia.

Of course the 38th parallel is a wonderful preserve, mined to the hilt, with artillery and armed troops from both sides presiding over it, tunnels beneath it. Yeah, all good fun!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 03:17
Yes and humans generally don't go into the demilitarized zone, so the animals can thrive, no pesky humans to annoy them.  I imagine that every once in awhile Bambi triggers a landmine, and it goes BAMB!  Actually armed troops are not allowed in the DMZ, to go into the DMZ on our side, you have to be a black belt, in case you get into any fights with North Korean troops, which has happened.

You are assuming that we can separate China and Russia out of it, I think that is wishful thinking, it is their backyard.  War with China would probably be one of the biggest mistakes possible, but there is a whole range of reaction they could have to a US military expedition, that could still complicate things, and be unfavorable.
If anyone else in the world invaded North or South America, we (US) would feel obligated to get involved, it is called the Monroe doctrine which said [to Europe] keep out of our hemisphere.  I don't see how China would not have something to say (and do), or Russia for that matter, if their neighbor North Korea was invaded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 06:34
I didn't say that troops entered the DMZ, I know they don't and I know why.

Why do you always twist what I post?

As for China and Russia during the Korean War, who can say. They may have been convinced back in the early 1950's that the power of the US wasn't something they really wanted to tangle with.

It's speculation on my part of course, as it is on yours.

And we seem to have gone off topic-again!

The thread was about faulty weaponry apparently supplied to North Korea by Russia, and speculation on my part as to whether or not it could have been deliberate. Although, Russia has a reputation for poor product control, example, their nuclear submarines.




Edited by toyomotor - 04 May 2017 at 06:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 23:51
The weaponry may be faulty, and the weaponry may be supplied by Russia, but no, I don't think it is deliberately supplied _as_ faulty by Russia.  I don't really see the point in that kind of speculation.  The weaponry may be old, used and shabbily maintained, but they are weapons of war, and such things do sometimes, when they get old and are not maintained well, occasionally blow up.  But, Russian rockets get us to the space station these days, so I believe that they can do many things well, engineering-wise.  If you are concerned about Russian made fighters blowing up in the North Korean Army, you might check on what type of fighters those were and when were they originally made in the Soviet Union.  My guess is that they are not the latest weapon systems.  But arms are one thing that can supply Putin's Russia with cold, hard cash, so I doubt that he would jeopardize that by supplying North Korea with faulty arms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2017 at 01:39
Where did I mention fighters?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2017 at 03:32
You might not have mentioned fighters, but the first post of this thread is an article about MiG 19 fighters falling out of the sky.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2017 at 05:52
My apologies, you are correct.

I really hate it when I'm wrong, don't you?   Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2017 at 00:00
Really?  You hate it?  And it happens so often!Clap

No, I don't mind it when you are wrong....Wink

But even if the North Korean military is falling apart, it should worry us.
Focus on an external enemy is one response to internal problems.
North Korea wants nukes and ICBMs in order to blackmail others to prop up the regime.

I don't think that any North Korean fears of externally imposed regime change is realistic,
unlike maybe Iran.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2017 at 23:57
be nice.
and try also to respond on topic, maybe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2017 at 00:07
Yes.
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