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Spanish governor defied missionaries

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    Posted: 27 May 2011 at 13:26
In the 17th century a Spainish governor defied the mighty and fanatical Franciscan missionaries and defended native religious practices. An interesting history from the land of the Pueblo indians.
 
 

Quote Spanish governor backed kachina practices

 

Marc Simmons |

 
The New Mexican

February 12, 2010 - 2

 

Among the Pueblos of the Southwest, supernatural rain-bringers known as kachinas have long been at the heart of their religion. Masked dancers, impersonating various kachina figures, participated in ceremonies to ensure abundant crops and the people's well-being.

Spanish missionaries, however, viewed such rituals as devil worship and superstition. A major facet of their conversion program, therefore, looked toward wholesale destruction of the kachina cult.

During the first decades after the founding of New Mexico, the war against this particular Native practice, led by the clergy and backed by Spanish soldiers, met with considerable success.

By the 1650s, the offensive kachina dances were seldom seen, having gone secret, underground. Spaniards believed their campaign of suppression and destruction had worked.

Their elation, though, proved premature. In 1659, a new governor reached New Mexico, Bernardo Lopez de Mendizabal. He quickly showed himself to be arrogant, self-serving and bitterly anti-clerical.

He claimed to have superior authority over the missionaries, which was not the case. When they refused to buckle to his demands, he attacked them at every opportunity.

In the matter of kachinas, or catzinas, as the Spaniards knew them, he found an issue he could readily exploit.

Soon after taking office, Mendizabal received several Pueblo delegations in his adobe Palace. They had learned that the new governor was hostile toward the church, so they complained to him that the missionaries had prohibited them from performing their sacred masked dances.

Mendizabal listened intently and then announced that he was granting the Indians permission to stage these ceremonies openly, in public. Indeed, he gleefully and strongly encouraged them to do so.

Soon members of several pueblos converged on Santa Fe, carrying kachina costumes in their baggage. These they donned in dressing rooms inside the Palace.

After dancing for the governor in the building, they adjourned to the Plaza and continued the performance in front of shocked citizens.

New Mexican churchmen were scandalized, and they sent off letters and reports to the Inquisition in Mexico City, denouncing the governor. The Native dances they condemned as acts of idolatry and heathenism containing obscenities.

In his own defense, Mendizabal wrote that he saw nothing diabolical in the performances. To him they appeared quite harmless, not unlike the colorful folk dances common in rural Spain in which masks were used. And he stated, as long as he was governor, the catzina dances could continue.

A local Spanish resident was horrified to see, in his words, the superstitious spectacle.

In later legal testimony given against the governor, he declared that one dancer wore an ugly costume like a devil with horns and a bearskin ... a horrible thing.

Afterward, upon being notified that an officer of the Inquisition was headed to New Mexico to seize him for religious crimes, Mendizabal was heard to say that before any such thing could happen he would hang the official from the nearest tree.

In fact, the rogue governor suffered arrest in 1662 and was sent in chains to Mexico City. Two years later, he died in the Inquisitions prison.

In the wake of Mendizabalas departure from the scene, the kachinas were once more subjected to persecution. In raids on their kivas, hundreds of dance masks and other sacred objects were hauled off by soldiers and destroyed.

The losses must have had a traumatic effect on the Pueblo people. Certainly they contributed to the anger that fueled the seismic revolt of 1680.

Today, most people are familiar with the kachina dolls, or wood carvings, that originally had only religious purposes. But they have now evolved into objects of Indian art for the collectors' market. The old catzina dances, however, especially among the Rio Grande pueblos, continue to be performed in strictest secrecy.

Historian Marc Simmons is author of numerous books on New Mexico and the Southwest. His column appears Saturdays.

 
Some additional information about Nicolas de Aguilar, an official that worked together with Bernardo Lopez de Mendizabal:
 
 
A little quote:
Quote The Franciscans often demanded that the Indians work for them without pay. Aguilar enforced a prohibition against Indians working for the Franciscans without pay, including as members of the choir in the churches or as volunteers. Moreover he decreed that Indians were not to be flogged or punished in any way for offenses against the church.
 
So there were occations when officials had to protect Native Americans against the grip of missionaries.


Edited by Carcharodon - 27 May 2011 at 13:28
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A little biassed, don't you think? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2011 at 15:01
Some more fracturing of History is at work again I see. Bernardo Lopez de Mendizabal was hardly the first governor to enter into conflict with "missionaries". In fact this tension was there from the beginning of "colonization" and there are far many more readable and interesting sources (both primary and secondary) than the Simmons snippet that totally ignores events in 1618 where the then governor Juan de Eulate did the very same things "credited" to Mendizabal. There exists a highly readable and interesting survey--written almost in travel narrative style--by David Roberts, The Pueblo Revolt: The Secret Rebellion that Drove the Spaniards Out of the Southwest [New York: Simon & Schuster, 2004]. It contains a sound annotated bibliography of both the primary and secondary sources on this theme.
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 30 May 2011 at 16:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2011 at 11:00
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Some more fracturing of History is at work again I see. Bernardo Lopez de Menizabal was hardly the first governor to enter into conflict with "missionaries".  
 
I do not think anyone said that. I just forwarded this story as an interesting example of how the fanaticism of the missionaries affected both the officials and the natives in this area.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

In fact this tension was there from the beginning of "colonization" and there are far many more readable and interesting sources (both primary and secondary) than the Simmons snippet that totally ignores events in 1618 where the then governor Juan de Eulate did the very same things "credited" to Mendizabal. There exists a highly readable and interesting survey--written almost in travel narrative style--by David Roberts, The Pueblo Revolt: The Secret Rebellion that Drove the Spaniards Out of the Southwest [New York: Simon & Schuster, 2004]. It contains a sound annotated bibliography of both the primary and secondary sources on this theme.
 
 
I shall read that survey, it sounds quite interesting.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

A little biassed, don't you think? 
 
Believe it or not, the missionaries were not as heavenly as you perhaps prefer to think.


Edited by Carcharodon - 30 May 2011 at 11:31
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Believe it or not, I would give my right arm to deffend the honour of the Jesuits!

From Franciscans, Benedictins, Protestants or Jehova Witnesses you can say what you wish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2011 at 14:50
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Believe it or not, I would give my right arm to deffend the honour of the Jesuits!
 
Why is that? Do you have any affiliation with the Jesuits?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2011 at 16:35
To describe the activities of the Franciscan missionaries in the Upper Rio Grande Valley as exerices in fanaticism is both ahistorical and unhistorical. For one, such nonsense disregards the role of the Spanish Church in governance as an organ of the royal administration. Second, the process of indoctrination had more to do with governance than religion and any one familiar with the political accountings known as residencias would understand why. Further, there are necessary historical distinctions that have to be made with respect to Hopi, Zuni, Navajo, and Apache and generalizations attempting to portray a homogeneous reaction among these distinct societies during the course of the 17th century is sheer fantasy. Study the history of  San Antonio/San Agustin de Ysleta [Isleta] (now suburban Albuquerque) so as to grasp some essentials. 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2011 at 16:37
To Carcha:

Indeed. I feel afiliated with the rational minds. You shouldn't forget that when the Spanish Empire expelled the Jesuits from the Americas, it caved its own grave. The Jesuits had a popular support among the peoples in the Americas: the poors, the Indians and everybody. 

Edited by pinguin - 30 May 2011 at 16:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2011 at 20:26
The Jesuits were more like mercenary soldiers "of God" than anything else!

At least in my humble opinion.

They just had a "good press" to support them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 03:01
Originally posted by opuslola opuslola wrote:

The Jesuits were more like mercenary soldiers "of God" than anything else!


Jesuits were the only highly educated priests, during a long time. Wherever they went, they spread education. They weren't involved in Inquisition, job that was better suited to fanatics, like the Dominicans, and even some Franciscans. Jesuits spread science and technology in Colonial Americas, at a time only they knew it. They converted indigenous people by teaching them to play barroque music Confused... They were fanatic builders, and build many churches, schools and libraries across the Western Hemisphere. There, in theirs libraries, some schollars were up to date to the knowledge in Europe.

If you want to get an idea about what the Jesuits were, watch "The Mission"... It is a movie, but it is based in historical facts.


Edited by pinguin - 31 May 2011 at 03:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 09:53
Good movie and factual I agree. However the good work of the Jesuits in South America has been somewhat outweighed elsewhere by their reputation for political intrgue. They weren't only expelled from Portugal (because of the work they were doing that is described in the movie), but they were also expelled from France, Austria, the Sicilies, and the Spanish Empire, as well as being eventually suppressed throughout all Roman Catholic countries, olnly managing to survive in a few Protestant countries that did not recognise the Pope's ban.
 
In Protestant countries they managed to get a dangerous reputation and one for sophistry largely because, I suspect, they were the most efficient proselytisers for Rome, as well as the sharpest and best trained minds.
 
I always enjoyed what few encounters with Jesuits I had. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 11:02
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

To describe the activities of the Franciscan missionaries in the Upper Rio Grande Valley as exerices in fanaticism is both ahistorical and unhistorical. For one, such nonsense disregards the role of the Spanish Church in governance as an organ of the royal administration. Second, the process of indoctrination had more to do with governance than religion and any one familiar with the political accountings known as residencias would understand why. Further, there are necessary historical distinctions that have to be made with respect to Hopi, Zuni, Navajo, and Apache and generalizations attempting to portray a homogeneous reaction among these distinct societies during the course of the 17th century is sheer fantasy. Study the history of  San Antonio/San Agustin de Ysleta [Isleta] (now suburban Albuquerque) so as to grasp some essentials.  
 
Well, the idea of mission and christianisation and its enforcement requires a bit of fanaticism together with power hunger and intolerance. And the Franciscans also in other context would show their true colors like in the case of the glorified concentration camps that usually are called the California missions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 11:11
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Jesuits were the only highly educated priests, during a long time. Wherever they went, they spread education. They weren't involved in Inquisition, job that was better suited to fanatics, like the Dominicans, and even some Franciscans. Jesuits spread science and technology in Colonial Americas, at a time only they knew it. They converted indigenous people by teaching them to play barroque music Confused... They were fanatic builders, and build many churches, schools and libraries across the Western Hemisphere. There, in theirs libraries, some schollars were up to date to the knowledge in Europe.

If you want to get an idea about what the Jesuits were, watch "The Mission"... It is a movie, but it is based in historical facts.
 
Still one shall not forget that many of the narratives about the well doings of the Jesuits are pure propaganda written by the Jesuits themselves or their supporters. Also the eventual protection they offered mostly came to a price: hard labour and the abandonment of the natives own religious, spiritual and cultural integrity. On top of that one shall not forget that Jesuits in south America now and then also hired out members of their labour force to other estate owners.
 
And in later days the Jesuits also have been connected with sexual abuse of native children as this thread would perhaps remind you of:
 
 
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Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

 
Still one shall not forget that many of the narratives about the well doings of the Jesuits are pure propaganda written by the Jesuits themselves or their supporters.
Just like the propaanda you regularly inflict on us.
Quote
 Also the eventual protection they offered mostly came to a price: hard labour and the abandonment of the natives own religious, spiritual and cultural integrity.
That's silly and self-serving. The Jesuits were supposed to be proselytising Christians. Getting the natives to abandon their beliefs was the whole point of the exercise. Just because you subscribe to a more ethereal and equally unfounded religion doesn't mean you can criticise people for subscribing to theirs.
 
I mean, you're doing your best every day to convert people to your religion and give up their normal everyday culture and beliefs, so why shouldn't the Jesuits do the same? 'Cultural integrity' cuts many different ways.
Quote
On top of that one shall not forget that Jesuits in south America now and then also hired out members of their labour force to other estate owners.
So?
Quote  
And in later days the Jesuits also have been connected with sexual abuse of native children as this thread would perhaps remind you of:
 
The original article that ends up leading to with is no more convinicing now than it was when you first posted it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 14:46
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Still one shall not forget that many of the narratives about the well doings of the Jesuits are pure propaganda written by the Jesuits themselves or their supporters. Also the eventual protection they offered mostly came to a price: hard labour and the abandonment of the natives own religious, spiritual and cultural integrity. On top of that one shall not forget that Jesuits in south America now and then also hired out members of their labour force to other estate owners.


As usual, you speak pure crap rooted in your ignorance.
 
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:


And in later days the Jesuits also have been connected with sexual abuse of native children as this thread would perhaps remind you of:
 


Please, it is very pathetic to confuse the contemporary degeneration of the Catholic priesthood with historical events. If you want to claim the Catholic church has always been a refuge of pedophiles, please open a thread and show the evidence.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 14:55
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

That's silly and self-serving. The Jesuits were supposed to be proselytising Christians. Getting the natives to abandon their beliefs was the whole point of the exercise.
 
That do not diminish the fact that ethnocide is a rather ugly crime.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

The original article that ends up leading to with is no more convinicing now than it was when you first posted it. 
 
Well, there are a lot of reports on these topics if you google the subject. Perhaps you can read some of them and find out if you think they are unsubstantiated or not.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 14:59
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Please, it is very pathetic to confuse the contemporary degeneration of the Catholic priesthood with historical events. If you want to claim the Catholic church has always been a refuge of pedophiles, please open a thread and show the evidence.
 
Unfortunately it seems that the Catholic priesthood have had its share of degeneration in all times. The catholic church seems to have thrived on sadism, masochism, necrophilia and other perverted behaviours for centuries.
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Ethnicide is not a crime! It is a fanstastic stupidity invented by New Age loonies, which love to play indians smoking marihuana. Magic crystals, anyone? Runes? Lorena McKennit?

Edited by pinguin - 31 May 2011 at 15:00
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Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Ethnicide is not a crime! It is a fanstastic stupidity invented by New Age loonies, which love to play indians smoking marihuana. Magic crystals, anyone? Runes? Lorena McKennit?
 
Destroying (not too seldom by force, blackmail or other sinister manipulation) other peoples religious, spiritual and cultural integrity is indeed ethnocide and a crime, at least morally and ethically.
 
And even more tragic it is when the original cultures religious systems are destroyed to benefit Christian superstition.
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Check the mothe in thin own eye.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 15:30
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

That's silly and self-serving. The Jesuits were supposed to be proselytising Christians. Getting the natives to abandon their beliefs was the whole point of the exercise.
 
That do not diminish the fact that ethnocide is a rather ugly crime.
Depends what you mean by ethnocide. The strict version is killing members of an ethnic group purely because of their membership in the group. That indeed sis a crime.
 
However, if you vaguely change the meaning to mean eliminating a culture, rather than the population covered by that culture, then it is no longer a crime at all. Cultures aren't people. You don't respect a culture just because it is a culture. The elimination of Nazism, contrary to your view, was not a crime but a cleansing meritorious act. Preserving evil cultures is not a crime, no matter what you may think.
Quote  
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

The original article that ends up leading to with is no more convinicing now than it was when you first posted it. 
 
Well, there are a lot of reports on these topics if you google the subject. Perhaps you can read some of them and find out if you think they are unsubstantiated or not.
 
That source merely leads to multiple copies of virtually the same text about the same case. What you are doing is slandering an entire community of people on the basis of a few wrongdoers. Far and away the vast majority of Jesuits had nothing to do with the case. Is it OK for me to accsue you of beng a murderous assassin, just because of what happened to Olaf Palme?  
 
Moreover as pinguin pointed out, we were talking about the historical Jesuit missionaries in South America not 20th century ones in he USA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 15:41
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

 
However, if you vaguely change the meaning to mean eliminating a culture, rather than the population covered by that culture, then it is no longer a crime at all. Cultures aren't people. You don't respect a culture just because it is a culture. The elimination of Nazism, contrary to your view, was not a crime but a cleansing meritorious act. Preserving evil cultures is not a crime, no matter what you may think.


Absolutely. Forbidding Aztecs from continuing with the human sacrifices is not a crime, but a duty.
A crime would have been not addapting chocolate, tacos and burritos.

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:


That source merely leads to multiple copies of virtually the same text about the same case. What you are doing is slandering an entire community of people on the basis of a few wrongdoers. Far and away the vast majority of Jesuits had nothing to do with the case. Is it OK for me to accsue you of beng a murderous assassin, just because of what happened to Olaf Palme?  
 
Moreover as pinguin pointed out, we were talking about the historical Jesuit missionaries in South America not 20th century ones in he USA.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 15:43

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Depends what you mean by ethnocide. The strict version is killing members of an ethnic group purely because of their membership in the group. That indeed sis a crime.

 

 

Well, that have occurred many times in the history of western Christianity, but also other types of destruction of spiritual, religious and cultural practices, art, literature, music and artistic expressions and similar have occurred

 

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

However, if you vaguely change the meaning to mean eliminating a culture, rather than the population covered by that culture, then it is no longer a crime at all. Cultures aren't people. You don't respect a culture just because it is a culture. The elimination of Nazism, contrary to your view, was not a crime but a cleansing meritorious act. Preserving evil cultures is not a crime, no matter what you may think.

 

 

Just a quote about ethnocide or cultural genocide:

 

Quote Cultural genocide refers to the deliberate destruction of the cultural heritage of a people or nation for political, military, religious, ideological, ethnical, or racial reasons. It also refers to premeditated distortion of historical facts about the people and culture subjected to destruction aiming to cover this crimes.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocide

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 15:44
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Please, it is very pathetic to confuse the contemporary degeneration of the Catholic priesthood with historical events. If you want to claim the Catholic church has always been a refuge of pedophiles, please open a thread and show the evidence.
 
*** Response deleted on the ground that it is repetitive denigartion of a whole religion without even a pretence at justification. This forum is a place for inter alia discussing religion not taking sides in a religious war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 15:46
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Absolutely. Forbidding Aztecs from continuing with the human sacrifices is not a crime, but a duty.
A crime would have been not addapting chocolate, tacos and burritos.
 
Well, a shame then that no foreigners came to Europe to forbid religious wars, witch hunts, inquisitions and similar, or came to the Americas and stopped the Christians from exterminating native peoples.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 15:53
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Absolutely. Forbidding Aztecs from continuing with the human sacrifices is not a crime, but a duty.
A crime would have been not addapting chocolate, tacos and burritos.
 
Well, a shame then that no foreigners came to Europe to forbid religious wars, witch hunts, inquisitions and similar, or came to the Americas and stopped the Christians from exterminating native peoples.


How come? Americans had to go to Europe to stop the lunacy of Europeans! A land full of ambition, ideologies, wars and violence.

That was called World War II. And that was the time when Nazism was forbidden!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 15:56
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

Depends what you mean by ethnocide. The strict version is killing members of an ethnic group purely because of their membership in the group. That indeed sis a crime.

 

 

Well, that have occurred many times in the history of western Christianity, but also other types of destruction of spiritual, religious and cultural practices, art, literature, music and artistic expressions and similar have occurred

All of which have occurred throughout history in all kinds of society under the influence of many kinds of religion. So your singling out 'western Christianity' and offering no reason for doing so except religious bias, is not only propaganda but unacceptable propaganda. After this warning I'll delete all such blanket denigrations of peoples, races, religions or cultures you come up with.

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Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

However, if you vaguely change the meaning to mean eliminating a culture, rather than the population covered by that culture, then it is no longer a crime at all. Cultures aren't people. You don't respect a culture just because it is a culture. The elimination of Nazism, contrary to your view, was not a crime but a cleansing meritorious act. Preserving evil cultures is not a crime, no matter what you may think.

 

 

Just a quote about ethnocide or cultural genocide:

 

Quote Cultural genocide refers to the deliberate destruction of the cultural heritage of a people or nation for political, military, religious, ideological, ethnical, or racial reasons. It also refers to premeditated distortion of historical facts about the people and culture subjected to destruction aiming to cover this crimes.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnocide

That's how wikipedia defines 'cultural genocide'.  Wikipedia, note, does not have a page on 'ethnocide' as such. Google's define finds only one, n Merriam-Webster:
Quote
Main Entry: ethnocide
Part of Speech: n
Definition: intentional and systematic destruction of an ethnic culture
 
As I explained already, given that meaning, ethnocide is not a crime. In fact it's a silly word though possibly not surprisingly so given its origin.


Edited by gcle2003 - 31 May 2011 at 15:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 15:56
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


How come? Americans had to go to Europe to stop the lunacy of Europeans! A land full of ambition, ideologies, wars and violence.

That was called World War II. And that was the time when Nazism was forbidden!
 
Well, I talked about an earlier age when Europe teemed with religious wars and similar. And unfortunately also the Americas have been full of ethnocide and extermination against native peoples. Noone came from the outside and saved the natives from that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 16:00
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


How come? Americans had to go to Europe to stop the lunacy of Europeans! A land full of ambition, ideologies, wars and violence.

That was called World War II. And that was the time when Nazism was forbidden!
 
Well, I talked about an earlier age when Europe teemed with religious wars and similar. And unfortunately also the Americas have been full of ethnocide and extermination against native peoples. Noone came from the outside and saved the natives from that.
 
Same warning as before. There's no reason to single out Europe and the Americas on those grounds at all. If you think there is, then provide the evidence that such things have never happened anywhere else.
 
Otherwise just stop the racist attacks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2011 at 16:03
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

All of which have occurred throughout history in all kinds of society under the influence of many kinds of religion.
 
But in this thread we are talking about Christian mission. 
 
Originally posted by gcle2003 gcle2003 wrote:

As I explained already, given that meaning, ethnocide is not a crime. In fact it's a silly word though possibly not surprisingly so given its origin.
 
It is indeed a crime even if you do not like it to be that. To destroy (many times by force, blackmail or other manipulations) other peoples cultures is indeed criminal. No manipulations with words and contortions can change that.


Edited by Carcharodon - 31 May 2011 at 16:04
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