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Stoicism

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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 08:37
I have had a couple of friends commit suicide, years ago.  Schopenhauer talks about suicide as an experiment (that there could be something better), but the problem is that once you do it, you cannot reverse it, or even tell the results.  His father killed himself.  Of course, the church believes that suicide is a sin, and that you are going to hell if you do it, (or perhaps for some protestants, you are in hell already when you feel distant from God, hell being a distance from God).  Maybe Christians just made suicide so bad, to discourage people.

Ok, the Stoic world is one that is determined, free will is going with it (not so fighting against it), the gods make things determined, meaning that you can't do other than what you are going to do.  This means not just physically, but socially and everything else, with no distinction between different realms.

One thing you can do, however, as probably the greatest act of freedom for Stoics, is assist the gods in your own fate.  The gods are making the circumstances, but the Stoic is going along with it, acknowledging it, embracing it.  In other words, suicide.  Personally I think that is a chickensh*t way out, I have some understanding of it, but I think that the cost is too high.  As they say, it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.  but, that is the Stoic view on suicide, but of course, if you don't do it, that is the gods' will too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pelagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 12:14

I think in the ancient Aegean Civilization this act was primarily used as means keeping the honor OR too proud to live without honor, still ethically it was misfortune to go in the afterlife unprepared (Socrates and the Cock) so it was used mostly in rare cases eg. Cleopatra, coz if like this it was all around trend in antiquity, then there wouldnt be corruption (or way lesser) and no need for ostracism for example in Athens, but why Stoics have argued about it I Think is probably more problem of elitism than phylosophy, maybe they have found a way how to stay famous even if they've made terrible decisions as counselors to the rulers ... on the other hand who knows how many different pagan eagean cults were around in those times that has used not just Proudness as motive but also sacrifice as obedience to the demons, if we know that this act is seen in Monotheism as damnation for the soul coz it is negation of Life that is one of the Virtues of God ... 

if the stoics were monotheists they for sure would avoid the suicide as good free will virtue, but having all sorts of view on the spiritual life they give to the paganism meaning [1] tho with hierarchy [1] - the more provoking question is were they influenced by the eastern philosophy, or they influenced the profound branching of hinduism with their teachings when in the time of Macedonian Empire there was strong influence between the aegean and indian philosophy [1][1


~ OT ~

One Thing Is For Sure most people that are in despair from sorrow or fear are at risk of committing suicide in any age of human civilization, that pain of the soul can be only cured by Higher Power i.e. God either directly or indirectly through the compassion from the community, and even if this is case if someone has sell his soul to the demons they would not see again the exit from that pain, in that case maybe is clever someone to do small harm to such person i.e. adrenaline rush of some kind maybe parashoot jump, maybe frontline vacation or maybe stacking hand in the stove, yet exorcism is more practical way of resolving the matter but that is also painful process and needs ropes ... Yet there is Still another human use of suicide (except coz honor or pain) its from ignorance, indirectly having free will We are doing such acts today mostly on behalf of the Soul through unethical social behavior thus judging our self on eternal damnation again if we are not repented cleansed and reach positive transformation i.e. positive change of mind and life that in Orthodox Christianity is known by the koine word Metanoia nowadays secularly more interpreted by the literature forms Catharsis and Epiphany [1][1][1] so the mess from the vietnam war became MESH on the tv screens in a way substituting the pain with laughter, social engineering that for sure prevented at lest many voluntary resignations in the is army what for the state would be also suicide - amid cold war to have solder moral loosen, tho in same time cia made the hippie movement so it loosen the public outrage, altho that was suicidal tendency for many young christian americans, risk that even today dont bather those deep-state elites only eager for pushing their nwo earthly paradise agenda, thus this is example where the suicide as action can be used on different levels with different motives suggest that those early Stoics havent the privilege to examine its оссurence from every aspect ... Please Dont Judge My Logic I Am Not Philosopher nor by profession nor by vocation, I just want to contribute to the debate but from my bookmark way of writing while exploring some topic ...

 


Edited by Pelagon - 10 Aug 2020 at 12:58
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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 14:17
Again, I would suggest Epictetus' Encheiridon ('Handbook') for a taste of Stoicism.  Again, Stoicism was influential on Christianity, particularly all those Christians going off to boldly face the lions.  Some Christians were condemned in the provinces, and actually went to Rome to be Martyred.  Is that suicide? Personally determining that is above my pay grade. 

I tend to often look at things as "above my pay grade."  I have thoughts about the truth, but I also think that if I was totally wrong, I wouldn't know it, precisely because people who are wrong, are often convinced that they are right.  I worry about my own soul/spirit/personality/mind/whatever you want to call it, or if you figure it doesn't exist, well that is your bag.  People are terribly complex, nor is the definition of "people" (man) done, but is still developing.  Humans get more complex as they age, and the human race gets more complex as it ages.  But, are the hare krishnas or the amish or (secular) humanists right?  Well, I don't think so, but again the Absolute Truth is above my pay grade, I am not cleared in the world of theological top secrets to know the mind of God.  That does not mean that I am agnostic, because I am agnostic about being agnostic.Clap  But, in an American, (perhaps) pragmatic way, I believe ya gotta believe somethin'.

You should know that if Cleopatra was captured by the Romans, they would've tortured and raped her and paraded her through Rome.  Then they would do it again.  Eventually, after years of this, they would grow tired of this, and execute her.  This is what Julius Caesar did to Vercingtorix (sp?), the Celtic king.  I mean, I think that you are right to call it suicide, but she had a choice between dying quick or dying slowly, painfully, with terrible humiliation.

Mohammed condemned a general of his, who in battle, killed himself to stop the pain.  I am not saying that pain (physical or mental) justifies suicide, but I could see where it is understandable that some people would think it is justified.

Philosophers quibble about whether Socrates committed suicide.  If he had not drunk the hemlock, maybe he could have lived another hour.  On the other hand, if he had not drunk it, his philosophy and moral message would totally have been compromised.  We would not have Plato and Xenophon and others who wrote Socratic dialogues, which showed (indirectly and sometimes directly) that Socrates' enemies were wrong.  So, was drinking the hemlock suicide?  Yes, technically, but Socrates was also a martyr for philosophy, he did not die because he hated life, but because he loved the Truth more.

I have studied Classical Greek some, and I have a friend who is Orthodox with whom I have studied the Philokalia and some of its background.  He is very interested in cataphasis and, I believe, apophasis(?)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 21:43
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have had a couple of friends commit suicide, years ago.  Schopenhauer talks about suicide as an experiment (that there could be something better), but the problem is that once you do it, you cannot reverse it, or even tell the results.  His father killed himself.  Of course, the church believes that suicide is a sin, and that you are going to hell if you do it, (or perhaps for some protestants, you are in hell already when you feel distant from God, hell being a distance from God).  Maybe Christians just made suicide so bad, to discourage people.

Ok, the Stoic world is one that is determined, free will is going with it (not so fighting against it), the gods make things determined, meaning that you can't do other than what you are going to do.  This means not just physically, but socially and everything else, with no distinction between different realms.

One thing you can do, however, as probably the greatest act of freedom for Stoics, is assist the gods in your own fate.  The gods are making the circumstances, but the Stoic is going along with it, acknowledging it, embracing it.  In other words, suicide.  Personally I think that is a chickensh*t way out, I have some understanding of it, but I think that the cost is too high.  As they say, it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.  but, that is the Stoic view on suicide, but of course, if you don't do it, that is the gods' will too. 

Well, I'd rather go to hell to meet folks like Socrates (who willingly poisoned himself although he could go into exile and thereby stay alive - so technically Socrates committed suicide) than hang around in paradise along with all that Christian pea-brained sh*t while listening their st*pid gibberish Smile I once attended a church service in some remote rural place of Russia and couldn't catch a word because the whole worship was conducted in old Slavic language (even Vatican doesn't require to do it in Latin any longer since 2nd Vatican council in the mid of 20th century). I am not sure what I was supposed to make out of the service if I couldn't understand anything. In addition a guy entered and asked me to stand up (I was sitting next to a few old crocks and kids), so I left and waited for my used-to-be friend outside while reading my tablet. I decided not to ruin the service by imitating an epileptic seizure by lying on the floor with foam at my mouth to make it all look like a scene from the old Exorcist movie




Edited by Novosedoff - 10 Aug 2020 at 22:13
I teach history to children and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 22:18
I think we need to make here a musical pause and lets welcome Pussy riot


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pelagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 01:32
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Again, I would suggest Epictetus' Encheiridon ('Handbook') for a taste of Stoicism.  Again, Stoicism was influential on Christianity, particularly all those Christians going off to boldly face the lions.  Some Christians were condemned in the provinces, and actually went to Rome to be Martyred.  Is that suicide? Personally determining that is above my pay grade.
in same manner I can argue also that the Indian ascetic practice is also influential to Christianity, nit that would be wrong, for sure there are similarities, but in the end stoicism is agnostic philosophy more similar to Monosim [1] than Monotheism, altho one can juggle with these ideologies and promote them as similar [2] on the other hand Your premise that stoic stance on suicide was influential to Early Christian Martyrdom makes no sens from ideological point but more like argument that Martyrs went willingly in death and thus commit suicidal action, which I think also is weak standpoint firs coz They didnt have choice whether to die or not but were subjected to deny their Faith or to die, something like when someone have to except war or death i.e. become fighter or die as deserter, in which case the free will is negate and thus the suicide its not a case![/quote]

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I tend to often look at things as "above my pay grade."  I have thoughts about the truth, but I also think that if I was totally wrong, I wouldn't know it, precisely because people who are wrong, are often convinced that they are right.
Let Say Free Will Rules, the problem arises when ignorant or bullying paradoxes arise from exceptional (egoistic) mindset, Your belief in some truth depeds from Your system of understanding and experiences You have, something that Protagora has made simple clear as ancient philosophy concept tho as secondhand testimony form Plato [3] what as paradox is used today by the atheists as their ideal, tho that definition could be equated to the Jesus Christ words It Would Be By Your Faith i.e. According To Your Faith Be It Unto You ...

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

You should know that if Cleopatra was captured by the Romans, they would've tortured and raped her and paraded her through Rome.  Then they would do it again.  Eventually, after years of this, they would grow tired of this, and execute her.  This is what Julius Caesar did to Vercingtorix (sp?), the Celtic king.  I mean, I think that you are right to call it suicide, but she had a choice between dying quick or dying slowly, painfully, with terrible humiliation.
yes This is simple observation, but if You have knowledge that in the macedonian tradition there was big cult of honor You'll see things differently, here are just few examples [1] tho this wasnt case with the last ancient macedon king [1] so I can conclude that ancient macedonian honor suicide was some sort of imperial cult, tho I think this arises form the aegen traditions earlier, something similar to the later samurai sepuku [2]  

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Mohammed condemned a general of his, who in battle, killed himself to stop the pain.  I am not saying that pain (physical or mental) justifies suicide, but I could see where it is understandable that some people would think it is justified.
As Monotheism Islam also forbid suicide, and no one can justify from soul perspective act that is irreversible by means of conscious selfdestroying of something that is Precious Gift from The Almighty tho all violence is rude ignorance of the Life but suicide could not be repented, yet many of us are not aware that every Freedom has own Responsibility so one can say that junk-food way of life is also some sort of suicidal tendency, tho I can say there is a big line between them coz there is still room for repentance from Monoteistic viewpoint ... 

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

We would not have Plato and Xenophon and others who wrote Socratic dialogues, which showed (indirectly and sometimes directly) that Socrates' enemies were wrong.  So, was drinking the hemlock suicide?  Yes, technically, but Socrates was also a martyr for philosophy, he did not die because he hated life, but because he loved the Truth more.
I think in this case there is also evidence that Socrat was too old to go anywhere, so it was some sort of euthanasia backed by truth ideal [1][1] think in this second footnote this could be drawn as conclusion too

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have studied Classical Greek some, and I have a friend who is Orthodox with whom I have studied the Philokalia and some of its background.  He is very interested in cataphasis and, I believe, apophasis(?)
I'll say just that its strange from catholic cathaphatic point of mercy that tomorrow some pope could interpret euthanasia as acceptable, risk that arise from the unam-sanctum (supremacy) bull which can be misused in this way, altho now as secular rule is quietly condemned without loud debate from the Church but rather defensive stance upon the attacks to its ideals [1] and I am amused why the Christian Theologians dont attack the secular liberalism with all their strength intellectually, altho I am aware that they are trying to act apophatically through prayers, but in time of massive liberal propaganda this is half effective if there is no continuous debate for whether the western trend for assisted suicide is ethical at all, who can tell that patients cant be manipulated to accept early ending of their life coz theor burden to the family either old or cripple members that are simply making their living harsh, which risk is big enough in these times of corrupt capitalism, when there is unnoticeable mobbing to healthy humans allaround what to say then for those that are in bed, its like some sort of modern eugenic practice to that earlier instaled in nazi-germany when there was rush for ubermenschen ideal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pelagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 01:41
Nov....... I dont know about the spam policy on this forum, but You should avoid such faulty posts, eventually You could make OT off-topic digression as some contribution to the talk, but in this case as separate post is like Bender went broke for beer so he must smash some empty bottles on the wall to ease his anger ...
Originally posted by Novosedoff Novosedoff wrote:

I think we need to make here a musical pause and lets welcome Pussy riot
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 09:54
Lets keep it more practical. We can establish here a little suicidal community, the death group, and move on to discussing the best stoic ways of suicide Smile (I hope in the US it is not prosecuted like in Russia)

PS. Btw did anybody see the French movie Martyrs (2008)?


Edited by Novosedoff - Yesterday at 09:58
I teach history to children and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pelagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 hours 60 minutes ago at 07:41

only practical thing on this Topic is that the Stoic philosophy was not suicide centered but had opinion on such circumstances, in my knowledge they were more occupied by explaining the Life than death, tho I wont argue that there is some real evidence to what extend this was case ...

it is funny how there can be so many interpretations about the Stoics that it could be said that as popular topic it can bring You to dead end if You dont really examine deeply this philosophical concept of living, even more if its not done from ancient perspective, the next linked syncretism between the modern and the ancient is good example, I suppose even modern philosopher cant reconstruct this kind of reasoning, sounds like epistemological debate did arise among the Stoics in strange way, tho at least on first glance it look that there is good point somewhere inbtween these next lines, but without deeper knowledge about stoicism I cant drawn right conclusion, maybe someone else will!?


the truth is they have profound epistemological theory, and as I can understand this text above is trying to put in stoic mouth abstraction if I can say it bluntly, which by evidence was not true, they ware epistemological realists till bone, way different eg. from Protagora ...
Quote  “Sextus ascribes to [the Stoics] the following soundly empiricist slogan: ‘every conceiving (noêsis) occurs either from perception (aisthêsis) or not without perception, that is to say either from an encounter or not without an encounter.’”
...
  
 



Edited by Pelagon - 11 hours 57 minutes ago at 07:44
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