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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 08:37
I have had a couple of friends commit suicide, years ago.  Schopenhauer talks about suicide as an experiment (that there could be something better), but the problem is that once you do it, you cannot reverse it, or even tell the results.  His father killed himself.  Of course, the church believes that suicide is a sin, and that you are going to hell if you do it, (or perhaps for some protestants, you are in hell already when you feel distant from God, hell being a distance from God).  Maybe Christians just made suicide so bad, to discourage people.

Ok, the Stoic world is one that is determined, free will is going with it (not so fighting against it), the gods make things determined, meaning that you can't do other than what you are going to do.  This means not just physically, but socially and everything else, with no distinction between different realms.

One thing you can do, however, as probably the greatest act of freedom for Stoics, is assist the gods in your own fate.  The gods are making the circumstances, but the Stoic is going along with it, acknowledging it, embracing it.  In other words, suicide.  Personally I think that is a chickensh*t way out, I have some understanding of it, but I think that the cost is too high.  As they say, it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.  but, that is the Stoic view on suicide, but of course, if you don't do it, that is the gods' will too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 12:14

I think in the ancient Aegean Civilization this act was primarily used as means keeping the honor OR too proud to live without honor, still ethically it was misfortune to go in the afterlife unprepared (Socrates and the Cock) so it was used mostly in rare cases eg. Cleopatra, coz if like this it was all around trend in antiquity, then there wouldnt be corruption (or way lesser) and no need for ostracism for example in Athens, but why Stoics have argued about it I Think is probably more problem of elitism than phylosophy, maybe they have found a way how to stay famous even if they've made terrible decisions as counselors to the rulers ... on the other hand who knows how many different pagan eagean cults were around in those times that has used not just Proudness as motive but also sacrifice as obedience to the demons, if we know that this act is seen in Monotheism as damnation for the soul coz it is negation of Life that is one of the Virtues of God ... 

if the stoics were monotheists they for sure would avoid the suicide as good free will virtue, but having all sorts of view on the spiritual life they give to the paganism meaning [1] tho with hierarchy [1] - the more provoking question is were they influenced by the eastern philosophy, or they influenced the profound branching of hinduism with their teachings when in the time of Macedonian Empire there was strong influence between the aegean and indian philosophy [1][1


~ OT ~

One Thing Is For Sure most people that are in despair from sorrow or fear are at risk of committing suicide in any age of human civilization, that pain of the soul can be only cured by Higher Power i.e. God either directly or indirectly through the compassion from the community, and even if this is case if someone has sell his soul to the demons they would not see again the exit from that pain, in that case maybe is clever someone to do small harm to such person i.e. adrenaline rush of some kind maybe parashoot jump, maybe frontline vacation or maybe stacking hand in the stove, yet exorcism is more practical way of resolving the matter but that is also painful process and needs ropes ... Yet there is Still another human use of suicide (except coz honor or pain) its from ignorance, indirectly having free will We are doing such acts today mostly on behalf of the Soul through unethical social behavior thus judging our self on eternal damnation again if we are not repented cleansed and reach positive transformation i.e. positive change of mind and life that in Orthodox Christianity is known by the koine word Metanoia nowadays secularly more interpreted by the literature forms Catharsis and Epiphany [1][1][1] so the mess from the vietnam war became MESH on the tv screens in a way substituting the pain with laughter, social engineering that for sure prevented at lest many voluntary resignations in the is army what for the state would be also suicide - amid cold war to have solder moral loosen, tho in same time cia made the hippie movement so it loosen the public outrage, altho that was suicidal tendency for many young christian americans, risk that even today dont bather those deep-state elites only eager for pushing their nwo earthly paradise agenda, thus this is example where the suicide as action can be used on different levels with different motives suggest that those early Stoics havent the privilege to examine its оссurence from every aspect ... Please Dont Judge My Logic I Am Not Philosopher nor by profession nor by vocation, I just want to contribute to the debate but from my bookmark way of writing while exploring some topic ...

 


Edited by Pelagon - 10 Aug 2020 at 12:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 14:17
Again, I would suggest Epictetus' Encheiridon ('Handbook') for a taste of Stoicism.  Again, Stoicism was influential on Christianity, particularly all those Christians going off to boldly face the lions.  Some Christians were condemned in the provinces, and actually went to Rome to be Martyred.  Is that suicide? Personally determining that is above my pay grade. 

I tend to often look at things as "above my pay grade."  I have thoughts about the truth, but I also think that if I was totally wrong, I wouldn't know it, precisely because people who are wrong, are often convinced that they are right.  I worry about my own soul/spirit/personality/mind/whatever you want to call it, or if you figure it doesn't exist, well that is your bag.  People are terribly complex, nor is the definition of "people" (man) done, but is still developing.  Humans get more complex as they age, and the human race gets more complex as it ages.  But, are the hare krishnas or the amish or (secular) humanists right?  Well, I don't think so, but again the Absolute Truth is above my pay grade, I am not cleared in the world of theological top secrets to know the mind of God.  That does not mean that I am agnostic, because I am agnostic about being agnostic.Clap  But, in an American, (perhaps) pragmatic way, I believe ya gotta believe somethin'.

You should know that if Cleopatra was captured by the Romans, they would've tortured and raped her and paraded her through Rome.  Then they would do it again.  Eventually, after years of this, they would grow tired of this, and execute her.  This is what Julius Caesar did to Vercingtorix (sp?), the Celtic king.  I mean, I think that you are right to call it suicide, but she had a choice between dying quick or dying slowly, painfully, with terrible humiliation.

Mohammed condemned a general of his, who in battle, killed himself to stop the pain.  I am not saying that pain (physical or mental) justifies suicide, but I could see where it is understandable that some people would think it is justified.

Philosophers quibble about whether Socrates committed suicide.  If he had not drunk the hemlock, maybe he could have lived another hour.  On the other hand, if he had not drunk it, his philosophy and moral message would totally have been compromised.  We would not have Plato and Xenophon and others who wrote Socratic dialogues, which showed (indirectly and sometimes directly) that Socrates' enemies were wrong.  So, was drinking the hemlock suicide?  Yes, technically, but Socrates was also a martyr for philosophy, he did not die because he hated life, but because he loved the Truth more.

I have studied Classical Greek some, and I have a friend who is Orthodox with whom I have studied the Philokalia and some of its background.  He is very interested in cataphasis and, I believe, apophasis(?)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 21:43
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have had a couple of friends commit suicide, years ago.  Schopenhauer talks about suicide as an experiment (that there could be something better), but the problem is that once you do it, you cannot reverse it, or even tell the results.  His father killed himself.  Of course, the church believes that suicide is a sin, and that you are going to hell if you do it, (or perhaps for some protestants, you are in hell already when you feel distant from God, hell being a distance from God).  Maybe Christians just made suicide so bad, to discourage people.

Ok, the Stoic world is one that is determined, free will is going with it (not so fighting against it), the gods make things determined, meaning that you can't do other than what you are going to do.  This means not just physically, but socially and everything else, with no distinction between different realms.

One thing you can do, however, as probably the greatest act of freedom for Stoics, is assist the gods in your own fate.  The gods are making the circumstances, but the Stoic is going along with it, acknowledging it, embracing it.  In other words, suicide.  Personally I think that is a chickensh*t way out, I have some understanding of it, but I think that the cost is too high.  As they say, it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.  but, that is the Stoic view on suicide, but of course, if you don't do it, that is the gods' will too. 

Well, I'd rather go to hell to meet folks like Socrates (who willingly poisoned himself although he could go into exile and thereby stay alive - so technically Socrates committed suicide) than hang around in paradise along with all that Christian pea-brained sh*t while listening their st*pid gibberish Smile I once attended a church service in some remote rural place of Russia and couldn't catch a word because the whole worship was conducted in old Slavic language (even Vatican doesn't require to do it in Latin any longer since 2nd Vatican council in the mid of 20th century). I am not sure what I was supposed to make out of the service if I couldn't understand anything. In addition a guy entered and asked me to stand up (I was sitting next to a few old crocks and kids), so I left and waited for my used-to-be friend outside while reading my tablet. I decided not to ruin the service by imitating an epileptic seizure by lying on the floor with foam at my mouth to make it all look like a scene from the old Exorcist movie




Edited by Novosedoff - 10 Aug 2020 at 22:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 22:18
I've decided to remove the published link Smile It appears that the song is performed not by Pussy riot, but someone else. Although the video does show Pussy rioters performing in a church.

The song has been classified as extremist by Russian authorities (FSB a.k.a KGB). Perhaps because of its partially antisemitic rhetoric 


Edited by Novosedoff - 14 Aug 2020 at 00:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2020 at 01:32
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Again, I would suggest Epictetus' Encheiridon ('Handbook') for a taste of Stoicism.  Again, Stoicism was influential on Christianity, particularly all those Christians going off to boldly face the lions.  Some Christians were condemned in the provinces, and actually went to Rome to be Martyred.  Is that suicide? Personally determining that is above my pay grade.
in same manner I can argue also that the Indian ascetic practice is also influential to Christianity, nit that would be wrong, for sure there are similarities, but in the end stoicism is agnostic philosophy more similar to Monosim [1] than Monotheism, altho one can juggle with these ideologies and promote them as similar [2] on the other hand Your premise that stoic stance on suicide was influential to Early Christian Martyrdom makes no sens from ideological point but more like argument that Martyrs went willingly in death and thus commit suicidal action, which I think also is weak standpoint firs coz They didnt have choice whether to die or not but were subjected to deny their Faith or to die, something like when someone have to except war or death i.e. become fighter or die as deserter, in which case the free will is negate and thus the suicide its not a case![/quote]

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I tend to often look at things as "above my pay grade."  I have thoughts about the truth, but I also think that if I was totally wrong, I wouldn't know it, precisely because people who are wrong, are often convinced that they are right.
Let Say Free Will Rules, the problem arises when ignorant or bullying paradoxes arise from exceptional (egoistic) mindset, Your belief in some truth depeds from Your system of understanding and experiences You have, something that Protagora has made simple clear as ancient philosophy concept tho as secondhand testimony form Plato [3] what as paradox is used today by the atheists as their ideal, tho that definition could be equated to the Jesus Christ words It Would Be By Your Faith i.e. According To Your Faith Be It Unto You ...

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

You should know that if Cleopatra was captured by the Romans, they would've tortured and raped her and paraded her through Rome.  Then they would do it again.  Eventually, after years of this, they would grow tired of this, and execute her.  This is what Julius Caesar did to Vercingtorix (sp?), the Celtic king.  I mean, I think that you are right to call it suicide, but she had a choice between dying quick or dying slowly, painfully, with terrible humiliation.
yes This is simple observation, but if You have knowledge that in the macedonian tradition there was big cult of honor You'll see things differently, here are just few examples [1] tho this wasnt case with the last ancient macedon king [1] so I can conclude that ancient macedonian honor suicide was some sort of imperial cult, tho I think this arises form the aegen traditions earlier, something similar to the later samurai sepuku [2]  

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Mohammed condemned a general of his, who in battle, killed himself to stop the pain.  I am not saying that pain (physical or mental) justifies suicide, but I could see where it is understandable that some people would think it is justified.
As Monotheism Islam also forbid suicide, and no one can justify from soul perspective act that is irreversible by means of conscious selfdestroying of something that is Precious Gift from The Almighty tho all violence is rude ignorance of the Life but suicide could not be repented, yet many of us are not aware that every Freedom has own Responsibility so one can say that junk-food way of life is also some sort of suicidal tendency, tho I can say there is a big line between them coz there is still room for repentance from Monoteistic viewpoint ... 

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

We would not have Plato and Xenophon and others who wrote Socratic dialogues, which showed (indirectly and sometimes directly) that Socrates' enemies were wrong.  So, was drinking the hemlock suicide?  Yes, technically, but Socrates was also a martyr for philosophy, he did not die because he hated life, but because he loved the Truth more.
I think in this case there is also evidence that Socrat was too old to go anywhere, so it was some sort of euthanasia backed by truth ideal [1][1] think in this second footnote this could be drawn as conclusion too

Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I have studied Classical Greek some, and I have a friend who is Orthodox with whom I have studied the Philokalia and some of its background.  He is very interested in cataphasis and, I believe, apophasis(?)
I'll say just that its strange from catholic cathaphatic point of mercy that tomorrow some pope could interpret euthanasia as acceptable, risk that arise from the unam-sanctum (supremacy) bull which can be misused in this way, altho now as secular rule is quietly condemned without loud debate from the Church but rather defensive stance upon the attacks to its ideals [1] and I am amused why the Christian Theologians dont attack the secular liberalism with all their strength intellectually, altho I am aware that they are trying to act apophatically through prayers, but in time of massive liberal propaganda this is half effective if there is no continuous debate for whether the western trend for assisted suicide is ethical at all, who can tell that patients cant be manipulated to accept early ending of their life coz theor burden to the family either old or cripple members that are simply making their living harsh, which risk is big enough in these times of corrupt capitalism, when there is unnoticeable mobbing to healthy humans allaround what to say then for those that are in bed, its like some sort of modern eugenic practice to that earlier instaled in nazi-germany when there was rush for ubermenschen ideal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2020 at 01:41
Nov....... I dont know about the spam policy on this forum, but You should avoid such faulty posts, eventually You could make OT off-topic digression as some contribution to the talk, but in this case as separate post is like Bender went broke for beer so he must smash some empty bottles on the wall to ease his anger ...
Originally posted by Novosedoff Novosedoff wrote:

I think we need to make here a musical pause and lets welcome Pussy riot
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2020 at 09:54
Lets keep it more practical. We can establish here a little suicidal community, the death group, and move on to discussing the best stoic ways of suicide Smile (I hope in the US it is not prosecuted like in Russia)

PS. Btw did anybody see the French movie Martyrs (2008)?


Edited by Novosedoff - 11 Aug 2020 at 09:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Aug 2020 at 07:41

only practical thing on this Topic is that the Stoic philosophy was not suicide centered but had opinion on such circumstances, in my knowledge they were more occupied by explaining the Life than death, tho I wont argue that there is some real evidence to what extend this was case ...

it is funny how there can be so many interpretations about the Stoics that it could be said that as popular topic it can bring You to dead end if You dont really examine deeply this philosophical concept of living, even more if its not done from ancient perspective, the next linked syncretism between the modern and the ancient is good example, I suppose even modern philosopher cant reconstruct this kind of reasoning, sounds like epistemological debate did arise among the Stoics in strange way, tho at least on first glance it look that there is good point somewhere inbtween these next lines, but without deeper knowledge about stoicism I cant drawn right conclusion, maybe someone else will!?


the truth is they have profound epistemological theory, and as I can understand this text above is trying to put in stoic mouth abstraction if I can say it bluntly, which by evidence was not true, they ware epistemological realists till bone, way different eg. from Protagora ...
Quote  “Sextus ascribes to [the Stoics] the following soundly empiricist slogan: ‘every conceiving (noêsis) occurs either from perception (aisthêsis) or not without perception, that is to say either from an encounter or not without an encounter.’”
...
  
 



Edited by Pelagon - 12 Aug 2020 at 07:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2020 at 13:34
I asked Novosedef about "Pussy Riot" in another thread, and their anti-Putin antics.  He thought pretty poorly of them.  I think he added them to this thread as a light hearted touch.  But you are correct Pelagon, we digress more than we should.  On the other hand, I do appreciate the video of Luttwak even if it is 'Off Topic.'  Of course, we have got a little off topic going so far into the issue of suicide.  Point though, is that the Stoics and others had interesting angles on the issue.

While I consider Socrates to be 'technically' a suicide, Socrates rejected suicide in Plato's Phaedo, which is the presentation of Socrates' last day.  Socrates expresses that one's life is like being a guard on guard duty, it is not up to one's self but the god when one should be dismissed.  Of course, remember that Socrates has a little voice that tells him what not to do, and in some versions, what to do.  Socrates is not resisting the execution, because his voice does not prohibit it.

I have been talking about late Stoicism, which is an ethical system.  Early Stoicism also has a logical and (I think) a physical system.  Early Stoicism, however, is a technical, scholarly system which primarily exists quoted in later philosophical works and is not very accessible.  Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, Seneca and Cicero are accessible to the amateur, Chrisippus, Cleanthes and Zeno of Citium are not.  But if you have an interest in early Stoicism, might start with Diogenes Laertius Lives of Eminent Philosophers and Cleanthes' Hymn to Zeus.  Other than that one might look at modern anthologies and secondary sources, essays by modern academics, if you are interested in early Stoicism.  Sambursky and Mate are two names I have read, but in general it has gone 'in one ear and out the other."

I think that learning about Stoicism is good "food for thought."  But, ultimately I think Stoicism is flawed.  Look at Marcus Aurelius, the Emperor who was a Stoic.  He was the last in string of four(?) 'good' Emperors.  But, he was the last, and he was replaced by a bad emperor, his son Commodus who was a little crazy, fighting against gladiators.  My thinking is that if Marcus Aurelius was such a great philosopher-king, then why did Commodus come to power?  Commodus was Marcus Aurelius son, but the Emperor-ship was not necessarily passed from father to son.  So, I see Aurelius' failure as a failure of Stoicism (and the idea of philosopher-king(?)).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2020 at 02:20
listening to voices is already suicidal thing I mean it can lead to suicide :) many philosophers had the same problem, probably the big mess of egoism and mindboggling concepts in someones head are loosing the nous and thus opens door to demons-anathema-to-them, even talking about them is risky what about talking with them!? such invasion of the soul is evasive only through Prayer, altho if You Pray to false absolute You are actually becoming slave to false teachings at least, and even You didnt have wrong intention and even You are aware that there is causality in this world as Good and evil opposites and You have chosen the Good Side, stil if You dont have shield to push back the spiritual attacks, You will become at risk to become pray at least, even the very basic approach of the philosophers to seek for the truth by reasoning of right and wrong with no knowledge for the Absolute i.e. have Monotheistic stance and knowledge is enough risky to become mad or suicidal just because as Created Soul althro have free will is intentionally lowering the height of The Almighty God to level of some negative creation thus by own mistake opening door for becoming demonized even tho You are not even spiritually awaken, maybe it would be too simplified to put it like this but > its like playing with fire while not listening to the elders i.e. arrogance has own price, what to say in times when not just the Stoics but the large conundrum of classical aegean philosophy actually was influenced by the middle eastern dualism, tho I would say there was exception to it through some kind of pagan monotheism through the prism of the heliolatric cult then and there which was eg. primal not so much for the egypteans as was for the assyrians miceans and kater macedonians, altho again this dont means that they were not suicidal eventually they were pagans too who were syncretizing all sorts of belief systems, even the heliolatric cult was kind of fallen knowledge that was relaps from the civilisation before the flood which bestow upon self the Anger of God  and have been wiped out ...

this above digression is more like supplement for the next conclusion (than to Your stance Franciscosan) that Stoicism was basically rooted if not largely influenced by the zoroastrism i.e. the known and ancient dualistic mysticism from the middle east (and not just Persia) so my profound diving in its depths would be suicide as Monotheist, thats why I am only scratching the surface as historical correlation just to know what is what  and from where is leading to what, without the need to explore the metaphysical axioms those philosophers leaved to the world, simply I think its wrong knowledge that eventually lead to the fall of Babylon Athens and Rome and before also Uruk Memphis and Mohenjo Daro, I am implying this from philosopher-kings perspective, maybe too subjective standpoint but as Monotheist today with ~15+ years of struggle to forget my pagan inertia for salvation if not enlightening of my Soul what was largely pagan exploration in the 90's tho with big traps for my Soul even tho I havent went to some cult but just diving all around in world pagan syncretism from east till west I think I have the right to say that this southern aegean mystics is not at all worth for any special observation even more for those that is not their scientific interest, wrong music can make your inner ear burst and deafness of the Hearth for the Pure Absolute Truth is something that is more dangerous than to become blind!!! Thanks for Your Polite suggestion but I'll must skip it as I said all those phoenician-greek-philosophers and their reasoning would be just burden to me if I start to examine deeply their hypothesis, its better like this to stick above the surface and try to help when someone will stack there in their mud, at least pointing what leads to what which would be beneficial for anyone to know so he would not fall on the trap of some greek exceptionalism at least which today is some kind of mainstream mantra on all level eg. the fake assumption that the modern world is built on classical greek philosophy, even the mathematics eg. the Pythagorean Theorem is Persian know-how maybe even later but for that there is still no evidence tho there is that it was not invented on Samos [1] but this is not so important coz its earthly measurement know-how, but when it comes to the philosophy and mysticism the are as I said many risks around ... wonder whats Your stance on these next lines ...


                 
The Greek Origin of the Sixth-Century Dating of Zoroaster ~ Peter Kingsley ~ https://www.jstor.org/stable/619232?seq=1

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what a typo above, exactly either You will Pray or will become prey!

I must add to my stoic reasoning that they were not strict dualists but as in the "greek" pantheon that was case they accepted the cosmological dualism which obviously is derived from the zoroastrian cosmology, but actually they were pandeists, in what extent there was common schema I cant say coz I dont know exactly is that school of thought was compact at all or it was open concept that has more earthly than heavenly focus, whether this or that was actual case, its fact that those Stoics at least werent atheists but in worst case agnostics wandering as philosophers among the common trends and their own exploration while seeking the Absolute Truth, even do I think to be agnostic is lesser problem than pagan polytheist, stance from Monotheistic point of view! anyway they the Stoics had practice in prayers also, its only question does this practice was religious or just poetic exaltation amids those ancient aegean spiritual trends, guess those attic greeks were using phoenician tradion as base tho were influenced by all others middle east teachings, if Bernals theory for Black Athena is true then for sure they were using ancient egyptean mytological knowledge too!?

       
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video How Marcus Aurelius Responded To Antonine Plaque Pandemic


~



Edited by Pelagon - 14 Aug 2020 at 12:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 05:12
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Maybe Christians just made suicide so bad, to discourage people.

Christianity made suicide bad because Christianity is the religion of slaves, and slaves are a valuable resource needed by our Governments in order to do all the work on the ground level. Slavery exists because of the scarcities artificially created by our Governments in order to manage population growth within the limits of its economic sustainability. If people come to understanding of their personal limitations and resolve their personal problems by committing suicides, there will be noone to clean the sh*t for high ranking managers Smile
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give definition for slave, what exactly You understand see ad slave!? discouraging bad deeds is like feat, tho the free will is imminent principle in Christianity and ultimately when someone commit such thing its not mental state in question but emotional! you cant brainwash someone to deny or accept evil, You can just hope The Gods Grace will help to avoid any spiritual attacks, and knowing that the spiritual world is in the background of this one I'll say most of the suicidal cases are from such nature!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2020 at 05:11
I think that Stoicism gave a means to coping with the Roman Empire and living with it, until of course it ordered you to not live with it, in which case you did what it said, you feel on your sword, or some equivalent.  Christianity in its early days was a means of defying the Empire, the Empire would have understood armed rebellion, but it could not understand Christians willingly going to martyrdom rather than testifying against their faith.  This indirect defiance eventually changed the Empire, and when it did Christianity had to change from being a defiance of, amongst other things, recognizing the Emperor as divine.  Christianity was first an obscure Jewish sect, then it was a nascent religion being (off and on) persecuted by Rome (sometimes more off than on, then more on than off), then it was an official (the official?) religion.

GK Chesterton criticizes Stoicism in his work, "Orthodoxy" for being comfortable living with the world, rather than (like Christianity) wanting to change it.  I cannot cite anything from this because I have it audiobook, not a regular book.

Like I said, Marcus Aurelius was one of a string of good emperors, but his son was lousy.

I am not familiar with Zoroastrian influence on Stoicism, although Zoroastrianism has some influence on some Jewish and Christian views.  I am well familiar with Kingsley and his work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Aug 2020 at 09:32

in my knowledge zoroastrianism had no direct influence on Christianity, maybe we can argue which doctrine how was shaping pythagorism platonism and aristotelianism, and what from the last one was incorporated as logic by the Early Church Fathers ... 

if all the other "good emperors" before Marcus had blood related sons probably they would leave loosy successor, always, almost as rule of thumb successor child is spoiled, except if its brought up intentionally harshly or as earlier as possible is thrown in action, adopted child on other hand is almost always pushing hard in life to justify the choice as was case with Marcus and those emperors before him ...  

about Christian wanting to change the world, hm, not the world but to Awake the Hearts of misleaded pagan people for the truth about One Almighty God and seek Salvation true him trough worthy life tho having in same time Free Will to accept or not this ... 

about the first  where You are talking about divine ruler in Christianity I think that this goes like acknowledgment of the ruler as God Sent what was case only after byzantine vasilevs were becoming rulers by consent of the Church, in all other cases even today most Christian accept the statement of The Gods Son Jesus Christ for the worldly tax and the heavenly due [1] and before Christianity became recognized as religion, I think that any defiance to the ruler was not like rebellion but like Confession of Personal Faith ...

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 09:32
I don't know what "pandeism" is.  Oh, I could imagine, but what it would have to do with Stoicism is, at best, vague.  Stoicism would recognize the gods of Rome (gods, plural) and while the gods have somewhat receded from the world, they are not gone.  Educated paganism has gotten more pan-theistic in its tone, but the official doctrine is that the gods are very much still active.  Epicureanism has a kind of deistic attitude, but Epicureanism (along with Christianity) is very much considered atheistic.

The dualism of Zoroastrianism is one of a good god, Ahura Mazda, vs. an evil god, Ahriman, Christianity comes close to that with Jehovah and Satan.  This Satan (or Shaitan from Job), is in the Old Testament more of a "devil's advocate" assigned to argue the opposite side, than a quasi-independent entity.  Going into the New Testament, Shaitan becomes he Satan with which we all are familiar, a quasi-independent entity who defies God.  This is the influence of Zoroastrianism upon Christianity.  If God is all powerful, than evil should not exist, it would have no independent reality, yet we feel it does.  There are ways of trying to square the circle, saying God is not all powerful (the Jewish answer), or that evil is not really evil (the mystic answer).  But, the problem of evil exists as a philosophical problem because Christianity is ambiguous, this is not a problem for Stoicism or any other polytheistic or pantheistic system.

Or are you talking about some other dualism?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 10:34

what You mean by ambiguous, dualism is dualism ying-yang as equal , Monotheism is One Essence and all other beings are Created including the forces, including this world thus need to differentiate what is Uncreated Energy Of The Almighty Lord and all other Created From Him ... 

pandeism is paganism in brand new cloths in the time of enlightenment european mystics, there are wiki directions when where and how has emerged as philosophy, tho that which is lacking is experience, or better said comparison by experienced practitioner, as I said I was in '90s practically and technically involved in paganism and had actually pandeistic views on the world, but later when I've become truly Inchurched Christian I have found the true difference, as in the spiritual battles so as in the spiritual beauty, before I was like zomby tired and exhausted and after I became Free from many bondages sorrows or traps, tho I am still trying to overcome myself, maybe not so my pride as much my laziness for greater feats ...




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2020 at 12:34
Yeah, Christianity is a wild thing Smile If we had it like that in Russia, perhaps I would have become Christian myself too (with a fire thrower to make it look even more wild):




I teach history to children and I am proud that they leave my classes permeated with sh*t and hatred to meet the real world..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2020 at 09:17
Originally posted by Novosedoff Novosedoff wrote:

Yeah, Christianity is a wild thing Smile If we had it like that in Russia, perhaps I would have become Christian myself too

hm wild like dew, for sure its opposite to the beasts that loom today in the humanism, those who manage to put the secularism on pedestal and thus drawn the world in world wars, something that is little waggy when one is taking in account the catholic-protestant clash but must say those european nobbles had have been kidnapping vatican from time to time and even instigating the infamous crusades in the name of the Cross, but actually they've been just hiding with it like wolf with sheep skin, probably result of the great schism that provoked curse on vatican as western Christian Seat, after what in the west started quiet usurpation or overthrow of The True Orthodox Christianity ... I dont wont to be apologetic in defense, sorry if my response sounds like that ...

I would like to hear which mystic in the east had have more profound understanding of the life than the stoic trend!?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 02:31
I think that you misunderstand me, Pelagon, I am merely elaborating a few things about Stoicism.  One, the idea of life as a banquet where you take a portion from the plate when it is passed to you, and then let it go by.  Two, the idea of suicide as a way of participating in your own fate in a deterministic universe.  Three, early Stoicism vs. the ethical later Stoicism of the Romans, including Marcus Aurelius, who is the last in a string (4) of good Emperors.  If you want to find out who the others are, feel free to look them up.  Aurelius is last in this string, and in my opinion is marred by the succession of his son Commodus. 

We got sidetracked on the issue of suicide.  Personally, I do not think it is ever "justified."  But, also there are situations that unfortunately arise, where it is understandable.  But, most people do not get into situations like Socrates or Cleopatra.  An as far as your Macedonian 'honor system,' again that may be understandable, but it does not justify it.  In fact, I think it is a chickensh-t way out.  You're hurting or are disgraced? fine, join the human race.  But, sometimes suicide is not a matter of consciously taking a way out, sometimes it is a matter of being on a cliff and just wondering what it would be like if you jumped.  There was a problem with people overdosing acetaminophen, but then they put it into blister packs, where you have to pop each pill out individually, and the problem largely went away.  Too much 'work' to do, discouraged people.  Sometimes it is just a spur of a moment impulse, which when it involves firearms or more drastic ways done by males, tends to be lethal.  but enough of a dead horse (please....)

Pelagon, if you want to study eastern mysticism, you have my blessing, but not my help.  After a rant about the Catholic Church vs. "True Orthodox Christianity," I am not even sure what you mean by East and West.  For example, is Evagrius of Pontus an eastern mystic?  Don't answer that, or answer it in a different thread.  There too you can even get into the schism about the filioque if you want to do so. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2020 at 04:14
must say that I have digress with Christian logic in this thread so it wouldnt become manual for suicide! sorry for my replicas which have arose as response later ...  the last comparison question about which eastern mysticism influenced stoicism was just attempt to revert the topic on stoic tracks, and maybe my interest on the genesis of the stoic philosophy, tho this would be just guessing about similarities, altho its clear that the ancient greeks have borrowed on many levels knowledge from Persia and Egypt ... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 05:03
You have nothing to be sorry for, I agree we got into the issue of suicide more than I'd wish.  But, it is an issue that illustrates the Stoic mentality, and so I wanted to mention it.  Not having studied it in depth, but my guess is that Stoicism is predominantly a Greek invention.  The "stoa" is the porch in Athens where the Stoics hung out.  That being said, many of the famous early Stoics were from places in the great Hellenistic world (the area of Alexander III conquests), not from places in the Hellenic world (like Greece proper).  But, again, it is easier to elaborate the later Stoics, who concentrated on ethics, and not so much the obtuse physics or logic of the earlier Stoics.

I think that the Greeks borrowed from Egypt and Persia, but more so in the Archaic and early Hellenic Age.  It would be like saying the Japanese have borrowed from American industry.  Yes, but they made it their own, and since then America has borrowed some from Japanese industry.  Platonism and Aristotelianism, Stoicism and Epicureanism are built on the Greek "philosophy" that comes before.  I put "philosophy" in quotes because I also meant science and rhetoric and sophism as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 09:44
for sure they have widened the ancient knowledge, simply they were sailors and merchants so they have big opportunity to syncretise all sort of knowledge from philosophical to political, something that later was case with the venetians who brought to europe the arabian and antique (middle east) know-how ...

in my opinion ionians have had phoenician origin thus they drove their mystics mathematics and phulosophy from the middle east on large scale, which as assumption can be elaborated in other thread so we would not take the Stoic discussion in genealogical waters, altho for the sake of the philosophical genesis this will be also important ...

one thing is for sure as ancient knowledge it should be seen rather geographically than ethnically, instead hellenic should be pointed as aegean, tho this narrative is way less used than the ethnic, maybe coz whole mediterranean ancient world was on large scale connected through the greek language, altho there different tribes around that used different local languages something like nowadays romanic group of languages ...   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2020 at 15:12
I started another thread to deal with 'the Greeks and the sea' about their seafaring connection, you might check it out.

The Stoics, I seem to remember, were one group that talked about the logos, and there is an opinion that John 1.1 is adapted and adopted from them.  "In the beginning was the Word (logos) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

logos is a very dynamic word, it can mean account, word, the utterance, and the idea behind the word.  I think(?) it implies spoken word, not so much written.  But, I am not absolutely sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 2020 at 08:00
that is the Christian interpretation as I know, scientifically today we can interpret this concept of creation as frequency, did Stoics had the same understanding hm they didnt ... here is good explanation for this [1] but I'll say no matter how one being is trying to explain what is unexplainable, as for example Stoic were trying it would be mistake, in this case St.John was trying to pass his knowledge for Ousia [2] to his contemporaries through understandable language, maybe later Palamists purified that understanding more profoundly [3] its simply too vague to except the logic that if something as word existed before the emergence of new understanding fir the same word that both of them are with identical meaning, on top of that neither the Stoics were mystics, nor St.John philosophical theologian ...

again I must acknowledge I am not theologian too, and have just little mystical knowledge from perspective of man who is trying to focus his spiritual practice and theory on Salvation Of His Soul, altho I have enough knowledge to state that Stoics have never influenced Christianity directly, not even indirectly through eventual similar ascetic practice, coz as such was continuity from hebrew asceticism [1][1][1

as for the new greek thread I have seen it, but dont have time to elaborate my understanding about the ionian greeks as phonicians, I am in midst of relocation between altitudes :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 06:15
I must say that this next proposition is not some evidence that Stoics borrowed their philosophy from middle east, but gives glimpse that there were different approaches to same problem, and if we see that astrology is also present in their interpretation of dreams we can assume that there was ancient cultural sharing between the prevalent cultures back then!


if eg. Christianity was borrowing from the Stoics they for sure will borrow practices like these too, not to be confused I have no intention to begin defensive debate on influences, but just want to point again that there should be drawn comparison between the patheisms in this thread, and not Monotheism as evolved pantheism, simply stoicism evolved from mysticism in some sort of ancient aegean "budhism", who knows maybe earlier in time of Socrates it influenced the indian gnosticism, altho it is common knowledge that this process was vice-versa!


Edited by Pelagon - 31 Aug 2020 at 06:16
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