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Street children killed in Brazil

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    Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 05:47
Some years ago media were full of reports that street children in some Brazil cities were killed by death squads (often consisting of policemen and militaries). The children were seen as a nuiscense that disturbed the affairs of business owners and frightened tourists. After some tumult in the press it went rather quiet about this matter.
Now the subject are being brought back and once again Brazil has to face the shame of being connected with such atrocities. Street children and other not desirable elements from the poorest parts of the cities are murdered as a form of social cleansing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/death-to-undesirables-brazils-murder-capital-1685214.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pabbicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 06:36
Not to take the opposition for opposition's sake, but "Social cleansing" isn't just a fancy nomenclature for "meaningless killing." It has it's place in society regardless of more modern appeals to morality, and even if you consider it morally wrong, it is always good to be rid of another criminal. Perhaps I'm simply a sociopath? >.>
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 06:49
I wish street children here were killed too so we'd be safer and wouldn't waste so much public money on the criminal 'justice' system and social services on them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 06:50
Or at least deported to North Korea where they could learn what life is all about in a gulag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 07:02
What did you expect from a failed society and a failed government?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 08:48

Brazil is a tough society that treats criminals as they deserve. With respect to the so called "children"... 14 years old kids with guns kill many people in Latin America. I don't see why society can't protect against them.

Perhaps the best Brazil could do is to capture all of them, and deport them to Sweden, where those wonderful and perfect societies can take care of them.
 
After all, that was what Castro did when the U.S. complained for Cuban human rights. Castro just shipped the Marielitos to the U.S.... Curiosly, the U.S. shut up since that event...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 10:05
Cuba's boat-lift people were disproportionately criminals and mental cases emptied from asylums (some political dissidents), and the "middle finger" to the US - thank you Mr. Carter.
 
Near where I live, many of those people were housed at an army base, and very many of them never left the area.  Now they compete with New York drug dealers for the local trade.
 
Pinguin, you are ridiculous.  The "U.S. complained for Cuban human rights."  Castro gives us the bird; sends us her criminal scum....we "shut up."
 
You don't give a damn about anything other than your own inconsequential ego.  Squat at the bottom of the world with your quipus in your hand and piss off. 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 20 Dec 2009 at 10:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 10:07
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


Perhaps the best Brazil could do is to capture all of them, and deport them to Sweden, where those wonderful and perfect societies can take care of them.

Sweden does not randomly kill street children and is known for it's liberal criminal justice system. Brazil does randomly kill street children and is not famed for its criminal justice system. Sweden is one of the safest country's in the world, Brazil the most murderous. Coincidence?

Really, if Latin America's crime problem shows us anything it's that heavy handedness doesn't work, especially when there's great inequality. Then years ago Mexico unleashed its armed forces against the drug cartel. Since then 17.000 people have been killed and the crime problem has not been solved one little bit. Anybody who still seriously thinks force will solve the region's rampant criminality had to be blind.

Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Brazil is a tough society that treats criminals as they deserve. With respect to the so called "children"... 14 years old kids with guns kill many people in Latin America. I don't see why society can't protect against them.


Because one way or another society created them in the first place. You don't see that many 14 year old kids running around with guns in Sweden.

Edited by Mixcoatl - 20 Dec 2009 at 10:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 11:37
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

...Because one way or another society created them in the first place. You don't see that many 14 year old kids running around with guns in Sweden.
 
But you see them in Brazil. What do you want people do? To surrender to crime?
Yes, it is fine to have states that take care of people since childhood, and that have a welfare system to support the do-nothing. And yes, given those conditions criminality certainly diminish.
 
But what happens when three quarters of a population is menaced by a quarter of criminals? What common people should do? Stay quite and wait for the next street kid to murder them? That's not the way to go.
 
Even in my country, a lot more peaceful than Brazil, nobody complains if a house owner shot a robber in self deffense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fantasus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 19:57
 
The more I follow such discussions, the more I find it a hard work to remain unbiased, and avoid any European or nordic bias(or perhaps others would call me "chauvinist"?).
And I cannot help remind recent demonstrations here, were the police acted rather promptly, since they expected violence. Both domestic and foreigns arrested and some very furious since they were arrested for some time.I think the outside world has little to complain about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 22:03
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:


But you see them in Brazil. What do you want people do? To surrender to crime?

Why should I have to answer that question? I could just as well direct it to you, you're the one promoting a measure that has shown to be countereffective.

And besides, usually law enforcement in societies in Brazil and Mexico is as bad as the criminals, so surrendering to criminals or giving extensive licenses to the police is almost the same thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 22:29
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
But you see them in Brazil. What do you want people do? To surrender to crime?
Yes, it is fine to have states that take care of people since childhood, and that have a welfare system to support the do-nothing. And yes, given those conditions criminality certainly diminish.


That model would maybe be something for Brazil and some other countries to learn from. A society that at least tries to even out the worst inequalities and give some support to those people who are unfortunate enough to not have any job or had the misfortune to be born into families with  social problems, or happen to be ill or some other misshappening.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

But what happens when three quarters of a population is menaced by a quarter of criminals? What common people should do? Stay quite and wait for the next street kid to murder them? That's not the way to go.


Well if they started to even out the enourmous social inequalities and injustices then maybe the rate of criminalty would go down a bit. No wonder if some people commits to crime when they are brought up in some slum hell hole with no hope for the future and noone giving a squat about them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 22:32
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Perhaps the best Brazil could do is to capture all of them, and deport them to Sweden, where those wonderful and perfect societies can take care of them.
 
 


I'd prefer if those who think we have a perfect society were deported to Brazil to install their view of a perfect society there.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2009 at 22:40
I have never heard anyone claim that Sweden is a perfect society. It has its problems too. But compared with some other countries it is still a fairly descent place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2009 at 02:02
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

....
That model would maybe be something for Brazil and some other countries to learn from. A society that at least tries to even out the worst inequalities and give some support to those people who are unfortunate enough to not have any job or had the misfortune to be born into families with  social problems, or happen to be ill or some other misshappening.
 
But you really believe people don't know that? Of course, if a country is lucky enough to be the main branch for companies like Volvo, there would be enough money to solve many social problems.
 
Inequalities aren't fought with rethoric (millions of Communists tried and failed). Social inequalities are combated with economical development. All the rest comes afterwards. With money you can fix societies. That's all.

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

....
Well if they started to even out the enourmous social inequalities and injustices then maybe the rate of criminalty would go down a bit. No wonder if some people commits to crime when they are brought up in some slum hell hole with no hope for the future and noone giving a squat about them.
 
It is true that's the source of criminality (mostly) but do you prettend the potential victims don't deffend themselves from criminals?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2009 at 02:08
Originally posted by Mixcoatl Mixcoatl wrote:

...Why should I have to answer that question? I could just as well direct it to you, you're the one promoting a measure that has shown to be countereffective.

And besides, usually law enforcement in societies in Brazil and Mexico is as bad as the criminals, so surrendering to criminals or giving extensive licenses to the police is almost the same thing.
 
That's true. There is a lot of things to be fixed in Brazil and Mexico, and many other Latin American countries. But the worst that can be done is let the criminals to end controlling the whole societies. The attempt by the drugs lords to control Colombia's society, for instance, cost that country thousand of lives, but at the end the state won.
 
The fight against crime in Latin America is a serious matter, the police in this region has really a job that requires courage and can't be compared at all with the easy jobs police has in some places of Europe, where instead of criminals the more dangerous subjects are usually some environmentalist hippies that prepare protests against global warming Confused
 
And corruption is indeed one of the factors to take into account in the fight between the state and criminals. The solution is militarized professional police. That's the approach we have in Chile and our policemen aren't corrupt at all. We have been exporting that model to some countries of the region, and I hope they could addopt it.
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 21 Dec 2009 at 02:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2009 at 07:20
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

 
But you really believe people don't know that? Of course, if a country is lucky enough to be the main branch for companies like Volvo, there would be enough money to solve many social problems.


One can have thousands of Volvos or similar companies, if the money and resources are not shared within in the society with some form of equality, there will still be a lot of poor people and social problems.
 
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

It is true that's the source of criminality (mostly) but do you prettend the potential victims don't deffend themselves from criminals? 


To just kill of people (many of them children) in the streets can hardly be called self defence. Its just plain murder, often for cynical economic reasons..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2009 at 09:08
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

....
One can have thousands of Volvos or similar companies, if the money and resources are not shared within in the society with some form of equality, there will still be a lot of poor people and social problems.
.... 
To just kill of people (many of them children) in the streets can hardly be called self defence. Its just plain murder, often for cynical economic reasons..
 
You don't grasp the social problems behind, do you?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 2009 at 23:55
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

....
One can have thousands of Volvos or similar companies, if the money and resources are not shared within in the society with some form of equality, there will still be a lot of poor people and social problems.
.... 
To just kill of people (many of them children) in the streets can hardly be called self defence. Its just plain murder, often for cynical economic reasons..
 
You don't grasp the social problems behind, do you? 


Social problems have causes, among them bad governing and corruption.




Edited by Carcharodon - 21 Dec 2009 at 23:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2009 at 01:17
Looks like all that was described by Jorge Amado some 70 years ago. Do things change in Latin America? :)

Edited by Anton - 22 Dec 2009 at 10:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2009 at 01:17
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

I wish street children here were killed too so we'd be safer and wouldn't waste so much public money on the criminal 'justice' system and social services on them.
 
Don't be silly Zagros. Even if ironic (which I don't believe it is), a comment like that is unacceptable. Are you deliberately ignoring the complexities of social problems? Because a comment like that makes me think you are largely ignorant in the entire matter. Shame really.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2009 at 12:42
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

Looks like all that was described by Jorge Amado some 70 years ago. Do things change in Latin America? :)
 
Of course things change. The problem is that certain outsiders (I mean Carcha) look for sources as old as the Three Caballeros Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2009 at 15:13
There are "street children" in the United States as well...the only difference is in the "bling"!
 
Cold, yes. But the "under side" of any and all societies has changed little in the narrative of civilization, only the "titulary" has changed.
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