| FORUM | ARCHIVE | | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT | |
Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community. |
|
Post Reply ![]() |
Author | |
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() Posted: 24 Mar 2017 at 23:04 |
The following is a list of Russian Nuclear Powered and/or armed submarines which, for a variety of reasons, were lost at sea. The list comes from Wikipedia.
This list is of Nuclear submarines only. From the end of WWII, from memory, there at least 15 other submarines lost at sea. In another thead, I asked if it could be possible for a Red October scenario to have taken place during the Cold War years. The consensus at the time was that it could not have. There have been a number of incidents when, Russian submarines in particular, have suffered major mechanical problems at sea and have surfaced to await assistance. In several cases, it is believed that US Navy submarines, which just happened to be in the area have also surfaced to offer assistance, which was allegedly rejected. One particular occurance remains somewhat of a mystery. That of K-141 Kursk. Could the Kursk, or one of it's non-nuclear sister ships, have been rescued by USS Navy or allied vessels? Bearing in mind the fact that Russia has remained very secretive about the loss of it's submarines, I suggest that one in fact could have either been rescued and/or the crew defected. Of course Russia would never admit it if it did happen. What do you think folks? Impossible? Improbable? Just possible? Highly likely Edited by toyomotor - 24 Mar 2017 at 23:10 |
|
![]() |
|
Sponsored Links | |
![]() |
|
caldrail ![]() Chieftain ![]() ![]() Joined: 21 Jan 2014 Location: Rushey Platt Status: Offline Points: 1468 |
![]() |
Where's the mention of the Soviet submarine that sank whilst en-route to Hawaii? There's been a lot of speculation about that, not least because the vessel set sail with a larger complement than normal on board. The issue was discussed in a recent tv documentary (yes, I know...) in which the evidence from deep sea surveys and documents suggests a team of Soviet special forces were on board and attempted to force the Captain to launch an attack at the distance normally associated with Chinese submarines. The sub was sunk because a missile was fired whilst still locked inside it's cradle, thus killing the crew with rocket exhaust and burning a hole in the hull. The truth will probably never be known.
|
|
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
|
|
![]() |
|
franciscosan ![]() WorldHistoria Master ![]() Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Location: Littleton CO Status: Offline Points: 10947 |
![]() |
What about Howard Hughes Glomar Explorer, and the US attempted salvage of a Russian missile boat (sub) in the Pacific? For a book on the US submarine force (including the attempted salvage of the Russian missile boat), I suggest "Blind Man's Bluff." The effort with the Glomar Explorer shows that there is a "grain of truth" behind Tom Clancy's fictional "Red October."
The US also has lost a few submarines over the years. And anytime the government "looses" a nuclear weapon, it is called a "Broken Arrow," (hence the John Wu film). Caldrail, _when_ did the Soviet sub that you mention go missing?
|
|
![]() |
|
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() |
As I understand it, this was a diesel engine vessel. I've only listed the nuclear powered/armed subs in the OP. The mission of the vessel you refer to, K-129, is not known, AFAIK. It has been suggested that it sank, following a collision with the USS Scorpion, which was also lost at sea. The fate of the many other post war submarines which have been lost at sea is a matter which we could/should include here.
|
|
![]() |
|
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() |
K-129 sank on March 8, 1968, not far from Pearl Harbour.
|
|
![]() |
|
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() |
That is a mystery without any new discoveries. Why there are so many Russian Nuclear Powered submarines sank in the sea. And I agree with you that Russia would never admit it if it did happen.
|
|
![]() |
|
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() |
Kesha090
I think it's probably because of the lack of skill and precision that has been found in Russian machinery in the past. The Nuclear Submarines, Nuclear Power Stations and rocketry have all been subject to shoddy manufacturing practice in the past. I don't know if things are improving or not.
|
|
![]() |
|
franciscosan ![]() WorldHistoria Master ![]() Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Location: Littleton CO Status: Offline Points: 10947 |
![]() |
My father was an aerospace engineer at Martin Marietta (now Lockheed Martin),
my brother recently said that dad said that when the Soviet Union collapsed, Martin Marietta really wanted to get their hands on blue prints for a MIG (fighter plane), they found out that there were no master plans, that each MIG was made (in its parts) by master craftsmen and so each was a different from the others. In other words, MIGs (and presumably, submarines, power stations the Mir space station and rocketry) were not standardized(?!?), or maybe once one was made, it was imitated with the others. It doesn't quite make sense to me, and I can't check with my father, who passed away several years ago. But, it does sound intriguing. I think the point is that "there is more than one way to skin a cat," and relying on an individual rather than a master blueprint, different ways get adopted by different 'artisans.' Other nations trust in Russia to get people to and from the space station, and of course since 1947, the trusty AK-47 has been the favorite weapon of revolutionaries and freedom fighters everywhere.
|
|
![]() |
|
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() |
Franciscosan
Your point being?
|
|
![]() |
|
franciscosan ![]() WorldHistoria Master ![]() Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Location: Littleton CO Status: Offline Points: 10947 |
![]() |
The way the Russians construct their equipment is very different than the way the Americans, and presumably, Western Europeans construct their equipment. It is not that they have a central plan, and they don't follow it well (as far as I understand), it is that each team is a group of craftsmen, following what they think is best to get the end result. But if one team uses a certain kind of weld on two parts, and another team uses a different kind of weld, it means that each is doing the kind of weld that they think is "appropriate" for the context, and neither is doing it "wrong." Slipshod is kind of like having a plan and blatantly not following it. This is more like having certain tasks, and trying to respond with craftspersons for the tasks. Personally, I am not that clear on this, but I invite others to try to follow (contradict or alter) my line of thinking.
That could well result in more initial failure rates, but also with an atmosphere of tinkering with the machinery, incremental improvements, but I am not sure about that. There is a story about when the Soviets got US bombers that made it the USSR after the Doolittle raid. Stalin came into the hanger and told his engineers that he wanted the bombers copied 'exactly.' In America, they would have done schematics, a blue print and maybe a mock up. The Soviet Engineers, however, where in a dilemma, when a blood thirsty tyrant says do it "exactly" what does he mean? They did it exactly, including the patches for battle damage that the planes had received from previous campaigns, and of course the markings, "unessential features.' BUT, they didn't get executed, at least at that time. And I am sure that was a plus. My point is that one can come up with a bomber or a sub through following a plan, or one can come up with it, with slavish imitation and maybe fixing minor faults through tweaking what was made before. But, what the Russians did was not a matter of following a "Manufacturing process," as we know it. Another example, when the Japanese Emperor was given a small train by the British around the Meiji restoration, they took it apart and built a working replica. However, it was clear that they did not really understand the processes, because on the boiler of their replica there were welds, that were on the original, but were mistakes, inconsequential to how the engine really functioned. There are two ways to make something, from the top down, following a plan, or for the bottom up, following master craftsmen, following (usually) an example. The Russian engineers probably understood the example, but did not want chance aggravating Stalin.
|
|
![]() |
|
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() |
Quality Control are the words I was looking for in my last post-that's what's lacking in many Russian built machines-try Lada.
|
|
![]() |
|
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() |
Sadly, another submarine and it's crew are currently listed as missing.
The Argentines ARA San Juan is missing somewhere off the east coast of Argentina. US Navy reports having detected a "heat stain" this morning at about 230metres depth, 185 miles off the coast. Let's hope the sub and crew are rescued in time.
|
|
![]() |
|
franciscosan ![]() WorldHistoria Master ![]() Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Location: Littleton CO Status: Offline Points: 10947 |
![]() |
As the surface navy likes to say, "you are on a boat that is designed to sink." Don't get me wrong, they are amazing vessels, but their crew faces stresses that normal sailors don't have.
But, it is nice to see the Argentines and the British cooperating, it is just too bad it has to be over something like this.
|
|
![]() |
|
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() |
Yes, but the expectation is that the vessel will surface upon command. The crews of these vessels are among the bravest to even serve in these vessels to start with, don't you agree?
|
|
![]() |
|
franciscosan ![]() WorldHistoria Master ![]() Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Location: Littleton CO Status: Offline Points: 10947 |
![]() |
I had a next door neighbor who was a sailor on the attack submarine Minneapolis-St Paul. I don't think very highly of him, too many years of exposure growing up. Sometimes prejudice is based on ignorance, sometimes it is based on knowledge, in his case, I know him too well. So, to answer your question, yes, there is a a bravery in doing so, but I also think that there is the bravery of the Chilean miners that were trapped a few years back.
I think the bravery kicks in after things go wrong, if there is any "after." As Nietzsche said, "what does not kill you, makes you stronger," with the addendum that it usually kills you. One can hope for otherwise, but it does not sound well for the sailors.
|
|
![]() |
|
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() |
Think of living in very close confinement along with 40 or so workmates, not seeing daylight for perhaps months at a time, in circumstances where a small error could cost the whole crew their lives.
Then think about being on 100% alert for most of the time, knowing that you're more than likely being hunted by an enemy, or that you very well could be called upon to engage in a nuclear war-your life span being calculated in seconds. Brave, certainly.
|
|
![]() |
|
franciscosan ![]() WorldHistoria Master ![]() Joined: 09 Feb 2015 Location: Littleton CO Status: Offline Points: 10947 |
![]() |
There is like, maybe, one retired submarine commander alive today who has a fired a torpedo at a vessel in a war. That is the British captain who sunk the 'General ....," the Argentinian battleship. So as far as being hunted, it has been war games for years. Not so much live combat.
I imagine that submariners get, in general, good training. And relying on it, keeps the fear away. I imagine that a big problem is boredom, with a general feeling of fear under that, in the background. In emergencies, excitement might keep that all away, at least for some.
|
|
![]() |
|
Guest ![]() Guest Group ![]() |
![]() |
ARA General Belgrano. Edited by toyomotor - 27 Nov 2017 at 11:40 |
|
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
|
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |