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Tainos Survival

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    Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 13:42

Common history talks us about the extinction of the Tainos in the Caribbean. This has been shown wrong more than a decade ago, but still lazy historians keep repeating that folk tale.

Tainos and Arawaks never went extinct. Profesor Martinez Cruzado proved already that the population of Puerto Rico is Amerindian descendent. So, the idea that the Indians went extinct in the Caribbean is a myth. They didn't extinct. They mixed.

 

This is obvious from the studies of Martinez-Cruzado, and also from literary sources of Colonial times, that shows that admixture was in very large scale. By the way, one of the reasons why the Tainos were "declared extincted" in the Caribbean was simply because that was the excuse needed for importing slaves. So, it was convenient for farmers of the region to declare the natives extincted. Which is not really what happened there.

 

Studies,

http://www.taino-tribe.org/pr-taino-dna.htm

 

For those who speak Spanish, this is the research of Martinez-Cruzado

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rASVo6iqgSU&feature=related

 

 

Taino organizations of the Caribbean. Lot of info there

 

http://www.indigenouspeople.net/taino.htm

 

 

Caribbeans with Indigenous phenotypes

 

Batista (Cuban)

 

 

Chayanne (Puerto Rican)

 

Puerto Rican Tainos

 

Dominican Republic Taino.

 

 

 

Surviving Arawak speaking peoples outside in the non-Hispanic Caribbean

 

Trinidad

 

Dominica

 

Haiti

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 15:04
How much intermarriage happened between natives and whites in the Carribean? I know some inter mixing is always inevitable, I think I read a stat recently that 10% of white south africans have a black ancestor. (Not to mention its sizable 'coloured' community) Did much of this happen in places like Jamaica? I think you could broaden this thread to approach these questions Pinguin - make it into a more general indigenous intermarriage/survival topic...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 15:26
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:

How much intermarriage happened between natives and whites in the Carribean? I know some inter mixing is always inevitable, I think I read a stat recently that 10% of white south africans have a black ancestor. (Not to mention its sizable 'coloured' community) Did much of this happen in places like Jamaica? I think you could broaden this thread to approach these questions Pinguin - make it into a more general indigenous intermarriage/survival topic...
 
In the Hispanic Caribbean the intermarriage was even larger than in South America or Mexico. The figures from Martinez-Cruzado were very surprising. When he started his research the common idea was that very few Native genetics survived in Puerto Rico, so he started his research in places that he suspected had remains of native blood. And he found that 60% of the people has Native mtDNA! So, encouraged made a sample in common Puerto Ricans, and he founded that those have about the same levels of Amerindian mtDNA Confused
 
This came as a shock in the Caribbean and showed that there was something wrong in recorded history.
 
 
For the rest of Latin America figures have been similar. Even in "White" Argentina, the Amerindian mtDNA reaches 50%! In my country, autosomal Indigenous DNA is between 30 and 40%.
 
Now, in all Latin America there is a sexual biass. Most Y-Chromosomes are European but most mtDNA (female lines) are still Amerindian. This is also true in Brazil, a country were the Amerindians are suposedly an small minority.
 
Spaniards in particular intermarried freely with Native American women, and (unlike the myth) not all those unions were casual. There were many marriages, too. In fact, most aristhocratic families in the regions come from marriages between Spaniards and native women at the early colonial times.
 
Further migrations have changed a bit the genetic makeup the region, but still the majority of the people of the region have this dual ancestry.
 
By the times of the conquest of Mexico, the Spaniards already had married in mass with Indigenous women. Years ago, 500 bodies were found in Mexico of Spanish soldiers, theirs women and children, killed by the Aztecs during the war of the conquest. Most of the women were indigenous from the Caribbean.
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 26 Dec 2009 at 15:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 15:41
By the way, some cultural elements of the ancient Tainos are still present in Music. Believe it or not, the following instruments, so wildly known in the so called Afro-Caribbean music, are really from Amerindian, Taino, origin
 
Maracas,
 
Guiros
 
Of course, guitars come from Spain and drums from Africa. So, the mixture in the island was not only genetic but also cultural.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 18:17
So what? Ler us get down to the nitty-gritty and address finding the "Indian in the cupboard" shall we? Maracas do not a Taino make nor does the dressing in colorful garb constitute a culture! Cultures have nothing to do with genetics and the sudden discovery that my mitochondria has an affinity for samples from the ancient Baltic does not a Varangian make! "Bohios" are (or were--in case there's a Cuban equivalent of the Pinguin among us) typical of the Cuban countryside, but such does not lay the foundation for the continuation of the Taino on the island much less the Siboney. Were there Amerinds--as such--in Cuba after the 16th century. Yes, in fact after 1763 many a Tequesta left Florida for Cuba after the transfer of that territory to Great Britain at the conclusion of the Seven Years War. Besides, the Caribs of Dominica were no secret but had you called Batista an Indian during his prime, you would have been lucky to avoid a beating [in fact he was derogatorily called "el mulato"]. The misapplication of Genetics as a "cultural" marker is on its face absurd.
 
And then there are the sweeping--and erroneous generalizations among them:
 
By the way, one of the reasons why the Tainos were "declared extinct" in the Caribbean was simply because that was the excuse needed for importing slaves
 
Wrong, Pinguin! Plantation agriculture in the Caribbean is a phenomenon of the 18th century and totally irrelevant to the presence of Amerindians on the Spanish islands. To claim that the Amerind had to be declared "extinct" is simply ludicrous given the fact that their "enslavement" was proscribed under colonial laws. Did the Amerinds "disappear", as a distinct culture, generally yes, but the norion that they went "extinct" is just a fancy of 19th and 20th century historiography and its cultural bias.
 
And then there is this strange allusion:
 
By the times of the conquest of Mexico, the Spaniards already had married in mass with Indigenous women. Years ago, 500 bodies were found in Mexico of Spanish soldiers, theirs women and children, killed by the Aztecs during the war of the conquest. Most of the women were indigenous from the Caribbean...
 
"[M]arried in mass" you don't say? Source please...since it is an established fact that the composition of the original 1519 sailing consisted of several hundred Amerinds (but only eight women) in addition to the 530 Spanish soldiers and 100 sailors. Yes, there were Tainos with Cortez but hardly the "children" of these purported mass marriages not even in terms of the Spaniards that arrived later with Narvaez. The nature of the conquest between 1519-1525 is a focus of continued analysis but such does not provide you authorization to run rough-shod over the factual. At least consult the sources such as catalogued here--
 
 
--rather than taking recourse to the nebulous. Perhaps you would do well to read:
 
Malintzin's Choices: An Indian Woman in the Conquest of Mexico


Edited by drgonzaga - 26 Dec 2009 at 19:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 18:44
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

So what? Ler us get down to the nitty-gritty and address finding the "Indian in the cupboard" shall we?
 
Here it goes. Lone Rider attacks agains... Or is it Tonto? Confused
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Maracas do not a Taino make nor does the dressing in colofrul garb constitute a culture! Cultures have nothing to do with genetics and the sudden discovery that my mitochondria has an affinity for samples from the ancient Baltic does not a Varangian make!
 
So? What's your point?
 
There are many many Taino traditions in the Caribbean that are still alive and well. Even more, the Taino is the Amerindian language that influenced Spanish the most.
 
On the other side, Jota is not very popular in the Caribbean at all.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 "Bohios" are (or were--in case there's a Cuban equivalent of the Pinguin among us) typical of the Cuban countryside, but such does not lay the foundation for the continuation of the Taino on the island much less the Siboney. Were there Amerinds--as such--in Cuba after the 16th century. Yes, in fact after 1763 many a Tequesta left Florida for Cuba after the transfer of that territory to Great Britain at the conclusion of the Seven Years War. Besides, the Caribs of Dominica were no secret but had you called Batista an Indian during his prime, you would have been lucky to avoid a beating [in fact he was derogatorily called "el mulato"]. The misapplication of Genetics as a "cultural" marker is on its face absurd.
 
Batista is not mulatto. Only a gringo like yourself could confusse the Amerindian aspect with a mulatto. Who may have some mulatto blood is Castro.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

And then there are the sweeping--and erroneous generalizations among them:
 
By the way, one of the reasons why the Tainos were "declared extinct" in the Caribbean was simply because that was the excuse needed for importing slaves
 
Wrong, Pinguin! Plantation agriculture in the Caribbean is a phenomenon of the 18th century and totally irrelevant to the presence of Amerindians on the Spanish islands.
 
How unfortunate are your pseudo-informed scholarship. You are wrong as usual. Please read the Las Casas trial, and you'll find out that African slavery was introduced into the Caribbean at the 16th century! Not the 18th!
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

To claim that the Amerind had to b declared "extinct" is simply ludicrous given the fact that their "enslavement" was proscribed under colonial laws. Did the Amerinds "disappear", as a distinct culture, generally yes, but the norion that they went "extinct" is just a fancy of 19th and 20th century historiography and its cultural bias.
 
Again. Your ignorance on the topic is amazing. It is even more weird the certainty you have in topics you don't know.
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

And then there is this strange allusion:
 
By the times of the conquest of Mexico, the Spaniards already had married in mass with Indigenous women. Years ago, 500 bodies were found in Mexico of Spanish soldiers, theirs women and children, killed by the Aztecs during the war of the conquest. Most of the women were indigenous from the Caribbean...
 
Of course It would be strange if you don't know about it, clown.Sleepy
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

...Yes, there were Tainos with Cortez but hardly the "children" ...
 
You better search and research.
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 26 Dec 2009 at 18:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 20:23
One could probably say that the old Taino culture and most of the people were eradicated. But some descendants still live and some of them seems to actively work to revive parts of their ancestral culture.



http://www.taino-tribe.org/jatiboni.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 20:24
You are a hoot, Pinguin, and obviously reading beyond your capacity for comprehension. Take you own advice and most certainly do not cite extraneous Internet froth as authoritative even if totally irrelevant to the nonsense you are claiming. Besides, you had best actually read Las Casas and understand that your ditherings are in complete contradiction to what he was actually explaining. There was no plantation agriculture in the 16th century Spanish Caribbean, in fact the fate of this region during the apogee of the Conquest (1519-1589) was its depopulation of Europeans eager to get somewhere else! For example, the role of Cuba was more or less a way-station--the abastecimiento of the Flota--and the Spanish Caribbean but a defense perimeter. Your vision of slaves over-running the countryside is sheer fantasy and until you can come up with reputable sources that say otherwise, kindly keep that avian beak shut. Besides, you would not know the difference between a trapiche and an ingenio even if you were drowning in molasses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 20:25
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One could probably say that the old Taino culture and most of the people were eradicated. But some descendants still live and some of them seems to actively work to revive parts of their ancestral culture.



http://www.taino-tribe.org/jatiboni.html
 
Take a closer look at the picture, Carch, and then tell me what the hell gives that individual the right to some costume at the expense of endagered species! Revive the "ancestral" culture, you've got to be kidding...it's a sham and I doubt roots and fruits are her diet of preference.


Edited by drgonzaga - 26 Dec 2009 at 20:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 20:35
Probably difficult to revive but just a tiny part of the ancient Taino culture (most are unfortunately lost), but at least she and her kins has the right to be proud over their ancestry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 22:32
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One could probably say that the old Taino culture and most of the people were eradicated. But some descendants still live and some of them seems to actively work to revive parts of their ancestral culture.



http://www.taino-tribe.org/jatiboni.html
 
Nope. You can't say that only SOME of theirs descendents are present when 60% of the people of a giving country descend from an "extinct" group. That's a lot of descendants.
 
 
60% Carcha! That's a big figure. Puerto Ricans are as much Native as Norse you are!  Think about it.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 22:44
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You are a hoot, Pinguin, and obviously reading beyond your capacity for comprehension. Take you own advice and most certainly do not cite extraneous Internet froth as authoritative even if totally irrelevant to the nonsense you are claiming. Besides, you had best actually read Las Casas and understand that your ditherings are in complete contradiction to what he was actually explaining. There was no plantation agriculture in the 16th century Spanish Caribbean, in fact the fate of this region during the apogee of the Conquest (1519-1589) was its depopulation of Europeans eager to get somewhere else! For example, the role of Cuba was more or less a way-station--the abastecimiento of the Flota--and the Spanish Caribbean but a defense perimeter. Your vision of slaves over-running the countryside is sheer fantasy and until you can come up with reputable sources that say otherwise, kindly keep that avian beak shut. Besides, you would not know the difference between a trapiche and an ingenio even if you were drowning in molasses.
 
Drgonzaga. Please, stop playing the role of Hispanic expert. You aren't Spanish at all, but American. And sorry to say but your Spanish is very crude.  Confused
 
You make me remember gringos that like to sing mariachis, but expert in Latin America you aren't.
 
 
If so, you should not that Las Casas was a great man but that he exagerated a lot in the name of his cause. He wasn't only the main protector of the Indians. He was also the main promoter of the Black Legend, and the man that introduced Black slavery into the Americas... to protect the Indians.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 22:52
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Probably difficult to revive but just a tiny part of the ancient Taino culture (most are unfortunately lost), but at least she and her kins has the right to be proud over their ancestry.
 
Most native american cultures of Latin America died long time ago. That's as true with the Tainos as with the Aztecs or Incas. There are many cultural elements that remain, though, in the countries where each of those groups lived. And that deep culture, deep in the sould of people, appears many times from the most unexpected places. This is a song in Taino by famous Dominican Republic's salsa singer Juan Luis Guerra:
 
 
Think is this way, ancient Pagan Norse culture was also wiped out by Christianism in Scandinavia. However, you still keep a Norse heritage, isn't?
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 26 Dec 2009 at 22:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 23:59
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

Probably difficult to revive but just a tiny part of the ancient Taino culture (most are unfortunately lost), but at least she and her kins has the right to be proud over their ancestry.
 
Most native american cultures of Latin America died long time ago. That's as true with the Tainos as with the Aztecs or Incas. There are many cultural elements that remain, though, in the countries where each of those groups lived. And that deep culture, deep in the sould of people, appears many times from the most unexpected places. This is a song in Taino by famous Dominican Republic's salsa singer Juan Luis Guerra:
 
 
Think is this way, ancient Pagan Norse culture was also wiped out by Christianism in Scandinavia. However, you still keep a Norse heritage, isn't?
 


The difference were that no strangers came over the sea and violently took over the Scandinavian culture, but nevertheless it changed due to political circumstances. But still today there are elements of the ancient culture visible in folklore, traditions and even in the celebrations of Christian festivals (as in Christmas).
Also there are even some people who try to revive the old Scandinavian religion, or at least try to reconstruct parts of it.


http://www.asatrosamfundet.se/old/index.html

The old Sami religion and traditional culture managed to live for a longer time intact. In the 17th and 18th century the church destroyed much of the old spiritual culture but some managed to survive and today some Samis have taken up the old tradition of noaiddastallan (Sami shamanism):


http://www.eng.samer.se/GetDoc?meta_id=1008

Also parts of their old economy live in the tradition of reindeer herding and other traditional subsistence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 00:05
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

One could probably say that the old Taino culture and most of the people were eradicated. But some descendants still live and some of them seems to actively work to revive parts of their ancestral culture.



http://www.taino-tribe.org/jatiboni.html
 
Nope. You can't say that only SOME of theirs descendents are present when 60% of the people of a giving country descend from an "extinct" group. That's a lot of descendants.
 
 
60% Carcha! That's a big figure. Puerto Ricans are as much Native as Norse you are!  Think about it.
 


All right they are descendants eventhough they are not fully Taino (they are mixed). In Scandinavian there are still a lot more than 60 percent that actually are Scandinavians (not mixed in the same degree as the Puerto Rican population). But actually more important than genetic heritage is the cultural heritage and what group oneself identify with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 01:53
Originally posted by Carcharodon Carcharodon wrote:

...All right they are descendants eventhough they are not fully Taino (they are mixed). In Scandinavian there are still a lot more than 60 percent that actually are Scandinavians (not mixed in the same degree as the Puerto Rican population). But actually more important than genetic heritage is the cultural heritage and what group oneself identify with.
 
True. But in Latin America the only pure Amerindian people you may find are the uncontacted tribes of the Amazon, or the natives of the more remote places. For example, in my country, the Mapuches are at least half Europeans.
 
That's the reality of the Americas and we have to live with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 02:49
Pinguin, I was the honors graduate in History of my B.A. class at Inter-American University of Puerto Rico in 1974. The surviving chronicles at that time, written in the 16th Century, talked about the Taino being extinct. Undestand that captive Indians were sold in the "Spanish Caribbean" from the early 13 Colonies Indian wars (v.g. King Phillips War), as well as from Mexico and Central America. Likewise, Mestizo colonists from outside Puerto Rico occasionally immigrated into Puerto Rico. I knew a family fro Yabucoa named Moctezuma. Not exactly a Taino name, though they became hostile when anyone suggested they might be Mexicans. Also, when the South American wars of Independence ended, there was a new wave of immigrants into Puerto Rico, and these were settled throughout the island. Those from Venezuela were settled into the Lajas valley. So, how does one differentiate between 'Taino" dna, Mayan dna, Mexica dna, Peruvian dna, and North American Indian dna? And more to the point, how does one distinguish between 'Taino' dna and dna from those descended from Venezuelan Criollos who were carrying Indian dna from the Orinoco river valley? Remember that the Tainos are believed to have entered the Caribbean from the Orinoco river valley. Or, Taino dna and Caribe dna? Remember that the Caribe kidnapped women, and allowed them to live as long as they bore male children.

I know that such a distinction could be made, but I challenge the idea that a sufficient data base has been assembled to do so. I am always suspicious of studies which start from the premise that such and such proves this, and then assemble the evidence to prove such an argument. So, color me doubtful. The Tainos were not a race, they were a culture. And their culture was extinct within a few years of the conquest.


Edited by lirelou - 27 Dec 2009 at 02:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 03:19
That's a good point, Indeed. The test only shows that Puerto Ricans have Amerindian ancestry and don't directly shows if that Ancestry is Arawak, Carib or Taino, or comming from Central or South America.
 
There are many misteries to resolve as yet. For instance, given that the Tainos were a people of sailors, how many escaped to Central America and Mexico after contact? We don't know that, no matter there is evidence some escaped.
 
However, the fact that Amerindian blood was found in Puerto Rico shows something nobody expected. All over the Americas the Amerindian blood is still invisible, but genetics has shown that everywhere has been downplayed. I am still waiting for the figures from the United States, too.
 
Besides, there is a single proof that Tainos were extincted by excess of admixture. There is a quote of the Bishop of Cuba that wrote that intermarriage was leading extinct the natives of Cuba. If you are interested in that quote, I'll look for it in my library.
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 27 Dec 2009 at 03:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 14:13
About the music of the Tainos. The Areitos.
 
 
 
     When Christopher Columbus arrived in Cuba in 1492 one of the cultural expressions he found was the "Areito" a simple yet sweet music made by the native Taino people. The Tainos people lived in what is today Cuba, Jamaica, Santo Domingo, Puerto Rico, and the Bahamas. They were a social and industrious people that navigated the Caribbean to trade throughout the Antilles with other Tainos, Siboneyes, and Caribe natives people.

     The religious ceremonies that took place at gatherings and festivals were accompanied by music and dance. In the Areito the people would sing and dance, in a circle with their arms intertwined, to the sound of a drum. One member, either a man or a woman, guided the group. The dancers marked the rhythm of the music with their steps and sung in a choral fashion as they stepped forward and back while responding to the leaders phrases and repeating his dance steps. The topics of the songs lyrics were the stories of things past and were constantly being updated. The songs were both an oral history of the people as well as well as a news service.

      

Once the dancing and singing of the Areito begun it could last for many hours with the same leader. They sung and danced along with the leader until the story was told. These types of festivities would typically last for days. The beat of the music was played on a hollowed-out tree trunk specially fashioned with holes in it for resonance and deep grooves along the entire length, but without any stretched hide or skin of any kind. The drum was called "Atambor". The beating of the Atambor was accompanied by conch shell horns and an instrument made from a gourd filled with small stones. This instrument survives today as the maraca.

     The only existing Areito known today was found in the National Archives of Cuba. It is doubtful that it belongs to Cuban Tainos because it is titled and dedicated to Anacaona, the "cacique" princess of Santo Domingo. Strangely it is written in our musical system but it is without any harmonic combinations.

Sources: La Historia de la Música Cubana, Elena Perez Sanjuro, 1986; The Journal of Christopher Columbus.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 15:18
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

  Remember that the Tainos are believed to have entered the Caribbean from the Orinoco river valley. Or, Taino dna and Caribe dna? Remember that the Caribe kidnapped women, and allowed them to live as long as they bore male children.


It seems that some schoolars today are questioning the old narratives about the Caribes and their fierce wars against the Taino. Some linguists and historians think that Carib were used as a  kind of trade language by the peoples in the islands to contact each other and the tribes along the coasts and which made it possible to trade and exchange goods. Also the cannibalistic habits are questioned, they seem to be rather exaggerated in the old chronicles. Some ritualistic cannibalism can have occured but not so much as have earlier been believed. Archaeological evidence also show no traces of any extensive cannibalistic habits.

It has been proposed that many of the exaggerated histories were spread so that the Europeans got some good excuse to enslave and exterminate the natives.

Also the habit among some tribes to steal women from each other seems to have increased manifold when these tribes were reduced in numbers by European diseases, slavery and warfare. To take women who could give birth to children was a desperate way to try to compensate for the increased mortality.




Edited by Carcharodon - 27 Dec 2009 at 15:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 17:28
Here we go again, fantasizing hillocks from grains of sand. Beyond the descriptive of Arawak ritual within a Caribbean context found in early chronicles and letters, all else is extremely suppositional. No scholar holds the Areito de Anacaonda as an authentic example of Amerindian music, in fact since it resembles no known indigenous music of the Americas while possessing very strong traits of late 18th and early 19th century Spanish song genres in musical and textual elements, it forms part of the Cuban national mistique much as the figure of the Siboney became expression of resistance to "outsiders" during the course of 19th century intellectualizations. Consequently, contemporary efforts at employing such fragments as expressions of cultural persistence are scarcely more than fancies akin to the folderol pursued by occultists in the realm of religion with such terms as Maboya, Juracan, Zemi, and Guqyuivi.
 
Not that the historical record of the island as found in the Archivo General de Indias is silent on the island for the year 1510 through 1540, which is the fulcrum for initial colonization. In this last year, the countryside contained but a few hundred "Indios tributarios" and to declare this description little more than calculated undercounts so as to promote the introduction of slave labor is scarcely more than "calculated" subornation of historical fragments. In fact, the major administrative problem for the Spanish bureaucracy in the 16th century was the repopulation of the island. For that reason, the island was subdivided into two political regions in 1607: La Habana and Santiago (Occidente and Oriente), with the latter receiving emphasis because of its underpopulation. Nor was this a peculiarly Cuban problem given that both Puerto Rico and Santo Domingo generated identical quandries when it came to the defense of the empire under the assault of corsairs. No matter the roles of the Las Casas pamphlet, La Destruccion de las Indias, in the elaboration of the Leyenda Negra, the historical fact of the 16th century for the Amerindians of the Greater Antilles was their sharp and drastic drop in population numbers. To employ the persistence of words such as batey, baracoa, guira, henequen, huracan and the like as evidence of population survivals is more than gratuitous simplification. Nevertheless, mythmaking emerged quite early, One need only read the historical epic of Silvestre de Balboa, Espejo de Paciencia (1608), to grasp the process. No matter the current fancy generated by the "search for roots", one fact remains: the physical presence of the Cuban "aborigene" ended yet cultural elements perdured within the supplanting society.  
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 17:41
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You are a hoot, Pinguin, and obviously reading beyond your capacity for comprehension. Take you own advice and most certainly do not cite extraneous Internet froth as authoritative even if totally irrelevant to the nonsense you are claiming. Besides, you had best actually read Las Casas and understand that your ditherings are in complete contradiction to what he was actually explaining. There was no plantation agriculture in the 16th century Spanish Caribbean, in fact the fate of this region during the apogee of the Conquest (1519-1589) was its depopulation of Europeans eager to get somewhere else! For example, the role of Cuba was more or less a way-station--the abastecimiento of the Flota--and the Spanish Caribbean but a defense perimeter. Your vision of slaves over-running the countryside is sheer fantasy and until you can come up with reputable sources that say otherwise, kindly keep that avian beak shut. Besides, you would not know the difference between a trapiche and an ingenio even if you were drowning in molasses.
 
Drgonzaga. Please, stop playing the role of Hispanic expert. You aren't Spanish at all, but American. And sorry to say but your Spanish is very crude.  Confused
 
You make me remember gringos that like to sing mariachis, but expert in Latin America you aren't.
 
 
If so, you should not that Las Casas was a great man but that he exagerated a lot in the name of his cause. He wasn't only the main protector of the Indians. He was also the main promoter of the Black Legend, and the man that introduced Black slavery into the Americas... to protect the Indians.
 
 
It is not my fault that you are so totally unfamiliar with the terms abastecer, trapiche and ingenio as to call them "crude" Spanish, but at least you should consult a dictionary before attempting flight from your precarious position on that iceberg--but keep in mind that Pinguins can not fly! And no do not mention accents given the inability of the forum to transcribe the diacritic. Nevertheless, it is quite amazing to encounter a Chileno so full of chile that bloviation approaches the level of a biohazard. Obviously you can not handle the culinary ecstasy of an habanero.
 
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 27 Dec 2009 at 17:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 17:50
Dr G: In re: "in fact the fate of this region during the apogee of the Conquest (1519-1589) was its depopulation of Europeans eager to get somewhere else!"

Yes. In fact, attempting to leave Puerto Rico without authorization in the 1540s was punishable by death! Everyone wanted to get to "El Biru". Some must have gotten permission. One of San German's founding families was the Ramirez de Arellano. That name can also be found in Lima and Mexico City. (One of its offspring on the distaff side, Roberto Cofresi Ramirez de Arellano, was a pirate in the early 19th Century. The American Navy was not amused.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 18:31
Pinguino, in re: "However, the fact that Amerindian blood was found in Puerto Rico shows something nobody expected.:"

Anyone who has seriously studied Puerto Rican history, and geography, would expect to find some of the population with Amerindian blood. The problem is that the great majority of Puertorricans will do anything to learn Puertorrican history, except read it. The sad truth is most Puertorricans depend upon verbal communications for their information. Thus, much of what one hears is "bochinche". Reading anything serious is simply too much of a challenge.

The point you cannot appreciate, having never lived in the island and been an active party to its political environment, is that the search is not for Amerindian genes, it is for "Taino" genes. This, in turn, is intimately related to the development of a uniquely Puertorrican nationalism that seeks to create the image of a world of "noble savages", the Taino, who were not cannibals, who did not make war, who enjoyed complete equality of the sexes, and who lived in complete harmony with nature, taking only what they needed, until they were ruthlessly subjugated by those awful Spanish, who were in turn overthrown by those greedy Yankee imperialists, who plotted to kill of the Puertorrican population through forced birth control, the introduction of cancerous materials into the environment, etc., etc, and who keep Puerto Rico subjugated by an ingenious form of Colonialism whereby $22 billion U.S. dollars a year are injected into the Puertorrican economy, which the colonial subjects can only spend on U.S. products, (which are made in China, but don't complicate the issue!) thereby keeping them enslaved to the Metropolis.

In case this sounds familiar, you might wonder if any other Latin countries might have employed such a mythology to lay the bases of a uniquely home-grown nationalism. "Indigenismo" anyone?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 20:11
Originally posted by pinguin pinguin wrote:

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

You are a hoot, Pinguin, and obviously reading beyond your capacity for comprehension. Take you own advice and most certainly do not cite extraneous Internet froth as authoritative even if totally irrelevant to the nonsense you are claiming. Besides, you had best actually read Las Casas and understand that your ditherings are in complete contradiction to what he was actually explaining. There was no plantation agriculture in the 16th century Spanish Caribbean, in fact the fate of this region during the apogee of the Conquest (1519-1589) was its depopulation of Europeans eager to get somewhere else! For example, the role of Cuba was more or less a way-station--the abastecimiento of the Flota--and the Spanish Caribbean but a defense perimeter. Your vision of slaves over-running the countryside is sheer fantasy and until you can come up with reputable sources that say otherwise, kindly keep that avian beak shut. Besides, you would not know the difference between a trapiche and an ingenio even if you were drowning in molasses.
 
Drgonzaga. Please, stop playing the role of Hispanic expert. You aren't Spanish at all, but American. And sorry to say but your Spanish is very crude.  Confused
 
You make me remember gringos that like to sing mariachis, but expert in Latin America you aren't.
 
 
If so, you should not that Las Casas was a great man but that he exagerated a lot in the name of his cause. He wasn't only the main protector of the Indians. He was also the main promoter of the Black Legend, and the man that introduced Black slavery into the Americas... to protect the Indians.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Pinguin the other forumer asked for sources.  Pictures and youtube are not much in the way of sources.
 
If you can substantiate your positions with reputable source material, well and good.  In the meantime, do not denigrate other forumers' language skills or issue thinly disguised insults to others.  Remember there is a Code of Conduct.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 20:14
Pinguin,
 
In many other posts, you have maintained that Europeans committed genocide on Amerindians.  At the same time, you maintain that they intermarried with them to a degree that many of us find to be highly questionable.
 
How do you explain something that seems to be irreconcilable?
 
 
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 27 Dec 2009 at 20:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 21:05
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Here we go again, fantasizing hillocks from grains of sand. Beyond the descriptive of Arawak ritual within a Caribbean context found in early chronicles and letters, all else is extremely suppositional. No scholar holds the Areito de Anacaonda as an authentic example of Amerindian music, in fact since it resembles no known indigenous music of the Americas while possessing very strong traits of late 18th and early 19th century Spanish song genres in musical and textual elements, it forms part of the Cuban national mistique much as the figure of the Siboney became expression of resistance to "outsiders" during the course of 19th century intellectualizations. Consequently, contemporary efforts at employing such fragments as expressions of cultural persistence are scarcely more than fancies akin to the folderol pursued by occultists in the realm of religion with such terms as Maboya, Juracan, Zemi, and Guqyuivi.
 
Not that the historical record of the island as found in the Archivo General de Indias is silent on the island for the year 1510 through 1540, which is the fulcrum for initial colonization. In this last year, the countryside contained but a few hundred "Indios tributarios" and to declare this description little more than calculated undercounts so as to promote the introduction of slave labor is scarcely more than "calculated" subornation of historical fragments. In fact, the major administrative problem for the Spanish bureaucracy in the 16th century was the repopulation of the island. For that reason, the island was subdivided into two political regions in 1607: La Habana and Santiago (Occidente and Oriente), with the latter receiving emphasis because of its underpopulation. Nor was this a peculiarly Cuban problem given that both Puerto Rico and Santo Domingo generated identical quandries when it came to the defense of the empire under the assault of corsairs. No matter the roles of the Las Casas pamphlet, La Destruccion de las Indias, in the elaboration of the Leyenda Negra, the historical fact of the 16th century for the Amerindians of the Greater Antilles was their sharp and drastic drop in population numbers. To employ the persistence of words such as batey, baracoa, guira, henequen, huracan and the like as evidence of population survivals is more than gratuitous simplification. Nevertheless, mythmaking emerged quite early, One need only read the historical epic of Silvestre de Balboa, Espejo de Paciencia (1608), to grasp the process. No matter the current fancy generated by the "search for roots", one fact remains: the physical presence of the Cuban "aborigene" ended yet cultural elements perdured within the supplanting society.  
 
 
My illustrious friend. Yes, I may agree on that. Now, how do you explain 60% of Puerto Ricans have Amerindian mtDNA? Was all that indian blood imported?
 
Hard to believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 21:10
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
It is not my fault that you are so totally unfamiliar with the terms abastecer, trapiche and ingenio as to call them "crude" Spanish, but at least you should consult a dictionary before attempting flight from your precarious position on that iceberg--but keep in mind that Pinguins can not fly! And no do not mention accents given the inability of the forum to transcribe the diacritic. Nevertheless, it is quite amazing to encounter a Chileno so full of chile that bloviation approaches the level of a biohazard. Obviously you can not handle the culinary ecstasy of an habanero.
 
Well, if you want to be undestoood, write clearly! Confused
 
abastecer is a verb, that means to provide or to store. Now, I wonder why you can't use english Confused
Trapiche is a mill, or grind.
Ingenio, it was the mill of a plantation.
 
I don't see the conection of those terms with the presence or absence of slavery in Cuba.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 21:17
Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:

Pinguino, in re: "However, the fact that Amerindian blood was found in Puerto Rico shows something nobody expected.:"

Anyone who has seriously studied Puerto Rican history, and geography, would expect to find some of the population with Amerindian blood. The problem is that the great majority of Puertorricans will do anything to learn Puertorrican history, except read it. The sad truth is most Puertorricans depend upon verbal communications for their information. Thus, much of what one hears is "bochinche". Reading anything serious is simply too much of a challenge.
 
Well, that's espected.

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


The point you cannot appreciate, having never lived in the island and been an active party to its political environment, is that the search is not for Amerindian genes, it is for "Taino" genes. This, in turn, is intimately related to the development of a uniquely Puertorrican nationalism that seeks to create the image of a world of "noble savages", the Taino, who were not cannibals, who did not make war, who enjoyed complete equality of the sexes, and who lived in complete harmony with nature, taking only what they needed, until they were ruthlessly subjugated by those awful Spanish, who were in turn overthrown by those greedy Yankee imperialists, who plotted to kill of the Puertorrican population through forced birth control, the introduction of cancerous materials into the environment, etc., etc, and who keep Puerto Rico subjugated by an ingenious form of Colonialism whereby $22 billion U.S. dollars a year are injected into the Puertorrican economy, which the colonial subjects can only spend on U.S. products, (which are made in China, but don't complicate the issue!) thereby keeping them enslaved to the Metropolis.
 
Well, I may agree with Boricuas on that. And there is nothing wrong Latin Americans are proud of our American Indian part of the family.

Originally posted by lirelou lirelou wrote:


In case this sounds familiar, you might wonder if any other Latin countries might have employed such a mythology to lay the bases of a uniquely home-grown nationalism. "Indigenismo" anyone?
 
That's not Indigenism. Indigenism is the sublevation of the Indian natives against the Mestizo-European majorities, and you can see that in Mexico, Guatemala, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador and others countries where there is a divide between Indians and Criollos.
 
What you are talking about it is the Criollo identification with the Ancient Americans. That's pretty normal in Mexico, Central and South America (Brazil included), but it seems it has been an allien concept in the Caribbean, particularly in a non-free country like Puerto Rico.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mixcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 21:40
If Puerto Ricans and Dominicans (I wonder why nobody ever claims the same thing for Haitians) are Taínos then the Spanish are Visigoths.

So I expect Pinguin to make a post about his Visigothic identity soon. I could make one about being Frankish (part Saxon), and Carch would be a Viking.
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