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Telepathy , telepathy is possible???

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2015 at 13:12
Quote One thing you have is a lot of anecdotes about people "feeling" from a distance that something terrible has happened to a loved one. Then they call home and find out that the loved one died, or was in a car accident or something else traumatic. I would not consider a collection of such stories as (scientific) evidence for telepathy, but one could understand why people, after having such a feeling, tend to believe in it. I have never had such an experience myself, but I have heard others report such an event.


Sheldrake did an interview with Joe Rogan and he talked about experiments that he did with his son. The kid was younger than ten not exactly sure. Sheldrake asks the boy to sit in a chair and he stands behind him about eight feet away. Then he asks the boy to say whether or not the he thinks dad is looking at him. The first time the boy was 100% correct he knew when dad was looking or not looking at him.

Then the boy wanted to switch and dad was not 100% accurate. It was as if he introduced the concept of being 'wrong' and the boy never got it 100% right again. He did however correctly perceive at a high rate usually in the 90%+ range. Sheldrake duplicated this experiment with groups of school children and created another experiment done over the phone. The subject has to say which of two friends is calling. Again children are much better at this than adults.

When I played 20 questions as a kid with my siblings I never needed 20 questions. And they always knew what I was thinking of too. When I played with other people it was much more difficult. I think an emotional connection helps with extra sensory perception.













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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2015 at 03:46
Wolfhound, how do you keep someone in suspense?
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But seriously, don't wait for me, I will do it, when I get around to it:)  I have got other things calling on my time, I haven't got back to the astrology thread, for which I read an academic book on ancient astrology (or rather I am interested in ancient astronomy and the two are indistinguishable).  But, I have other things in my "real life" too.  Maybe I'll get to it tomorrow, I am going to do it, but don't hold your breath (or do hold your breath, but it won't make it any faster). 

Elsewhere I have referred to the "we do not see because we have eyes, we have eyes because we see."  Eyes are 'stuck' on us like Mr. Potatohead, they are integral to who we are, however, people who are blind but saw as a child, have in some cases developed skills in echolocation.  In other words, they make "clicks" and are able to "see" from the reflections of soundwaves off of objects.  Bats of course do this, and of course the hearing of the blind is usually exceptional.  But, the stories I have heard about people developing echo-location emphasize that the individual was once able to see but now can no longer.  Hearing is just the ear sensing sound waves, if someone can see through hearing, then I wonder whether someone could see by feeling.  Now of course, such a talent would _never_ be developed normally, just like seeing through hearing is not developed normally but by someone who once saw with their eyes, but are now blind and use clicks to echolocate.  You and I could not do it, and probably someone who was blind from birth couldn't do either, and it would probably help a lot to have the example of the bat.

I think Vanuatu has opened up an interesting avenue to explore, 'esp' seems like part of the family of phenomena that the name "telepathy" seeks to explain.

For the _start_ of a definition:  telepathy describes a family of phenomena characterized in popular culture and folk psychology.....


Edited by franciscosan - 12 Jul 2015 at 03:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2015 at 05:15
I would never have brought up a topic like this but now that I have thought about it I really have developed a curiosity about it.  Mostly because franciscosan has been talking about science and belief.

I respect science but I don't rely on it exclusively for guidance.  The main reason is the way scientist keep moving goal posts for evidence.

I will give you an example when I was kid old farmers would talk about epigenetics of course they didn't use that word and their ideas were a bit muddled but basicly it was the same theory of some phenotype expressions being inherited by experience of the mother.  Years ago when I approached biologists with the idea they said it was simple ignorance.  Now that it is confirmed at least to a degree they say I'm confusing epigenetics with Lamarckism.   If it is confirmed to an even greater degree than expected they will simply say we knew that all along you just had a confused interpretation of what we were saying.

The idea that science is never wrong is something that is contradictory to the vary nature of science and most scientist will agree in principal but they will seldom agree they were wrong.  Human nature I suppose is to think you are always right if you are an authority. 

I have never understood why scientist think they need to have an opinion on god, every aspect of politics, philosophy or telepathy.  It's like going to your doctor and finding out he has no clue what is wrong with you but continuing to insist that he knows something important that he just can't share.    

I of course would have more faith in religion if science didn't exist but then again I would have more faith in science if scientist were honest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2015 at 14:36
"J.B. Rhine investigated ghosts, telepathy, poltergeists, and other unseen parapsychology phenomena from 1927 to 1965 at his Duke laboratory. "

Rhine's objective was to use the scientific method to establish telepathy as "a force operating outside of the body" I like that as part of the definition. If this was true then only our bodies would experience death and we would experience an afterlife. Karl Zener developed ESP Cards for these experiments; wavy lines, box, circle or cross.

This agrees with Sheldrake's theory of the Morphogenetic Field as seen in animal behavior like schooling fish, insects and their architecture and birds flying in unison. These animals move as one by the hundreds, and thousands with no obvious communication. They don't crash into each other they are able to follow the group.


http://dukemagazine.duke.edu/issues/111209/depqa.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2015 at 22:15
I think that women notice when men watch, normally they don't notice that they're noticing.

I have a female friend who is my age (48), and she really notices how she isn't watched anymore.
She used to be a cute young thing and get the attention, but she never planned on getting married or having kids (or rather she planned _not_ to get married and having kids).  In the past five years she has gotten an engineering degree, and she is now being ignored by a whole other male dominated area of life.  She really is now the "odd man" out.
I think women when they are young get plenty of attention, as they age, their looks decrease, but by that time they usually settle down with husbands.  Over time, physical attractiveness decreases, but comfort and companionship increase.  Also, attention from one's children becomes very important.  If a girl never had the looks or charisma, well then she probably doesn't miss the attention an attractive girl once got from younger men, but someone who once had the charisma like my friend, finds that the guys are no longer paying attention to her.  Of course, maybe they weren't paying attention to _her_ in the first place, just that she was cute.  But now, with an engineering degree, she wants them to pay attention to her ideas and skills, getting attention however, is a difficulty.  
Many woman (and men) are probably not aware of this, it is not a matter of any particular case which is important for the attention or not.  It is a general atmosphere which a cute young woman is in, which then is replaced by an atmosphere of marriage and/or children. Of course, there is a similar thing for men, young women want attention, but when you get to a certain age, young women don't particularly want attention from you.  Women notice men paying attention, but it not so much that women are looking at men, looking at them, although plenty of that goes on too.  But their awareness is a generalized thing, not the sum of observations.  And when that "male gaze" goes away, unless something has substituted for it, women notice that too.
I have come to realize how amazing birds in formation are.  I live next to a golf course and in the winter there are a lot of Canada Geese. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2015 at 05:00
When it comes to the question of how "perfectly" evolved a species is I would say birds and sharks in many ways outdo humans.  The evidence suggests that we were in a transitory adaptive phase when cultural evolution made "natural" selection less relevant. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2015 at 06:01
popular culture and folk psychology have within them a family of phenomena, like all families, this family tends to look alike, and like other families, the individuals do not all have the same traits, but have in common a set of traits.  So and so, has the same nose as someone, where as someone has the same eyes as another, and the ears of another resemble the ears of someone else, while the chin of someones else resembles the chin of so and so.
The descriptors of the family of phenomena, _within_ popular culture and folk psychology, include things like telepathy, esp, telekinesis, invisibility, pyrhotechnics, 'spidey' sense, bilocation, clairvoyance (seeing the future), clairaudience (hearing the future), 'laying on hands,' "mutant" abilities etc, etc.  
But, to say that telepathy is a communication between two minds, misses the possibility that telepathy can include 'eavesdropping' on someone's thoughts, seeing into the subconscious, sensing someone is looking at you, empathy and suggestion, inadvertently picking up people unknowingly broadcasting thoughts, perhaps even without the awareness of the receiver of what they are.  Of course, all these descriptors are interpretations of what phenomena could be 'psychically' possible according to popular culture and folk psychology.  

In popular culture and folk psychology, there is nothing _logically_ impossible about me thinking the same thoughts as you, or even flying.  It is _physically_ impossible, but our understanding of physics will change.  In fact, while physics has been the queen of the sciences for the past few hundred years, physics may be more and more eclipsed by biology.  The physical understanding of the universe treats matter as dead, whereas increasingly our understanding of nature is going to be as something living.  We have biological and medical ethical problems that we lacked before (stem cells), because our growing understanding of biology.  Now I am not saying that telepathy, etc. is 'historically inevitable' or some kind of bunk like that.  If "telepathy" is going to be scientifically explained, one first has to get past the characterizations of folk psychology and popular culture.   Some better understanding, of what today is packaged in folk psychology and popular culture, might arise from looking further into the dynamics between living organisms, instead of a living organism (us) and 'dead' matter.  I mean, we even look at the living as 'dead' matter that just so happens to be alive.  Doctors deal with the body, and if they considered what they were actually doing with it, that might get in their way.  Maybe all of us, are looking at life, the universe and everything, the wrong way....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2015 at 11:52
If you can think back to your very first memory, you realize there was a moment of separation. You ceased to be part of the landscape and emerged as an individual. This is the point where objects begin to reflect latent abilities and connections. You learn who you are through interaction with objects like your parents, mirrors and nature.

What of that embryonic stage when you are not yet individualized? Is this the natural state of an animal? A sense of belonging without separation may explain the mass consciousness of animal groups. I believe we do share subliminal connections of thought and emotion and generationally group think influences our behavior; think of Nazi phenomenon fueled by the nightmares of those who lived through WW1.

In UK there is a town that has seen suicides in numbers that extend well beyond the mean in comparative areas. Its the youth mostly but also young adults are hanging themselves. Even as the subject is discussed with a teen one week, and he is baffled and swears he won't ever take his own life, the next week he is found hanging from a rope.

The town also experiences inordinate amount of spontaneous violent crime. People just walking down the street, assaulted for no reason. In some cases grown men attacking teen girls. All those interviewed expressed the lack of optimism and lack of hope in an economically depressed area. These emotional conditions seem to affect group behavior.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2015 at 06:04
I don't remember my "first memory."  My parents are not objects or things:P I am not sure nature should be considered an object (or even a set of objects), since nature is not just "over there" but within us/amongst? us as well.  "What is this 'wet' I keep hearing about?" said one fish to another.

Males are conditioned as "other" than the maternal parent, where as females tend to be conditioned as "same," whether boys are born that way (nature) or because they are raised very early on that way (nurture).  This is just Carol Gilligan.  But I think that you mean by embryonic something after birth, in the infant stage.  Human infants are quite helpless, animals, on the other hand, tend to be able to walk or climb hours after birth.

I have heard that a lot of suicides are spur of the moment things.  I heard about them putting acetaminophen in blister packs to discourage its use in suicides (and yet I still buy it in a bottle?!?), apparently, punching out all those pills from a blister pack is enough to discourage some people (vs.
having a bottle full of pills making it easy to, spur of the moment, gulp them down.

I think about the Smiths song about swerving into oncoming traffic:

If a double decker bus, crashes into us, to die by your side, what a wonderful way to die!
If a two-ton truck, crashes into us, to die by your side, the pleasure, the privilege is mine!

It's kind of a "why not?" situation.  The young man that hanged himself, well maybe if he had waited 5 minutes, he would have been okay.  Morbidsy (Morrissey) is kind of fun, but he does kind of wallow in the angst, and grand gestures.  Something that teens love to do.  I think that your young man would have been better off if he had understood his acquaintances' actions, but did not agree.  The way you make it sound, he set himself up in a rigid position, where, when it failed, he had nowhere to retreat,

I have heard that the poor lemming is misunderstood, they swarm and when they get to a river, they cross it, but when they get to the ocean, they think it is a river, and try to cross it too.  I am not sure what that means as far as suicides are concerned, but I thought I would mention it;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2015 at 11:20
Quote Therefore, unlike Caldrail, I think there might be some kind of phenomena at the heart of our notion of telepathy

You might be wrong there. All I say is that the mind istrapped within the brain and cannot communicate directly. If telepathy exists, then it's a power of the spirit, not the mind, but that strays into my religious beliefs as I cannot prove that spirituality has any physical basis (if indeed is has any to start with). That's why I say sixth sense phenomena - which do occur and sometimes are impossible without some form of communication - are subliminal and not possible by concentration, which overrides any potential to 'feel' external stimuli of this sort.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2015 at 11:45
The first memory that you can identify is your first memory. Your sentimental about your parents understandably but they are an object that you relate to the same as you are an object to others unless you have come to a realization about consciousness, most haven't.

The nature that we are a part of is there upon reflection. I agree we are part of that but man as far as you remember, considered himself separate and even wants to dominate and control nature as a separate entity. The fish doesn't know water just as you don't know consciousness as the wet you are swimming in, that is most people are not approaching life with awareness of consciousness.

The suicides are a recent addition to a long history dating back to the Druids. It has happened all over the world. Now Eastern Europe has the most but UK, Japan and Russia have seen these spikes in suicides its not new. This is the "wet" the fish are wondering about, those involved in the suicides are soaking in malaise. The teen boy I mentioned actually did say these things, I haven't set up anything you have perceived your own ideas about death. See Bridgend, Wales suicides draw your own conclusions. They are both male and female teens and young adults.

I agree it is a why not? situation. There is nothing that is promising in this life for these people and they do believe that another existence is waiting beyond death in this world. Lemmings, I don't know what the truth is about lemmings. It seems they are reacting to group think and there appears to be a similarity in the suicide spikes, its extra sensory, if I'm proposing any set up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2015 at 12:45
Quote That's why I say sixth sense phenomena - which do occur and sometimes are impossible without some form of communication - are subliminal and not possible by concentration, which overrides any potential to 'feel' external stimuli of this sort.


Do you think that psychics such as those who help police solve crimes and missing persons cases are retrieving the information randomly? Or do you dismiss the idea altogether?
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." - Mark Twain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2015 at 18:51
I think that even if you don't have a ready answer for "why?" "why not?" should not be one's fall back position.  Just because one doesn't see an answer doesn't mean there isn't one.  If one is in a hole, then one should crawl out of the hole, step by step, moment by moment. 

The plural of anecdote is data.  What we have for telepathy, etc, is anecdotal evidence, Sheldrake not withstanding, that people can feel when they're stared at, that people can sense when a trauma happens to a distant loved one (I sense a disturbance in the force.).  I think that they can happen, but it is far from reliable both in that it often might not happen when one might think it "should," and that it might happen (false positive) when one thinks it shouldn't.  I think that there are shadows of something there, but then I blink and am not sure.
Those shadows are a far cry from the pop culture icons of Professor X and Jean Grey in the X-Men.  A more accurate portrayal of what it could be like is ditzy waitress Sookie Stackhouse in HBO series, True Blood.  Kind of like someone turning the dial on an old radio, with just bits of conversation and music temporarily playing after one another.  I think that nobody in life 'thinks' in even half of the time in coherent sentences.
I don't believe in _extra_ sensory perception, if there is something there, it is related to the senses, either senses we have, but don't know, or senses we have, but are unfamiliar with in some odd way of using (echolocation)).  There are more than the five senses, balance, positioning of the body (your feet don't need to be touching something in order for you to know where they are), some birds have a magnetic sense.  I have heard of a scientist with a terrible sense of direction who keeps a rare earth magnet in his pocket, which shifts around, letting him always know which direction is north.  
Come to think of it, we are able to tell the direction of gravity, if you are ever in an avalanche, figure out the direction your saliva goes in your mouth, and dig in the opposite direction.  Chances are, you will never be in an avalanche and you might not live even if you are, but the direction of your saliva in your mouth might be one more thing to go right for you (if you think of it), and that may make the difference.  But what if 'telepathy,' and other such things are like thinking of the direction your saliva goes in your mouth, in other words, something that you or may not think of in the middle of a hazardous situation?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2015 at 19:02
Vanuatu, people are not objects, or at least they're not objects to the extent one has empathy.
To a psychopath or sociopath, they're objects, to the doctor in order for him to operate on someone, that body has to be an object.  We are never completely free of objectifying people to some extent, but it is never just that people are simply objects.  Often when we objectify them, they can hit (back).  That was my point about my parents, and I imagine your parents, and anybody's parents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 10:24
Belief is a personal matter, its no surprise that lacking a mountain of evidence most reject ESP but few have actually studied it. No surprise that you dismiss Sheldrake, the need to discount any real proof by saying there is no proof is the reason Duke U. no longer has a parapsychology program.

To me there is no down side in being an insignificant object its a relief in fact. I don't think 'why not?' is the only explanation for the suicides, you_ said_ that. I agreed because a teenager who knew some of the suicide kids in Wales had made similar comments when asked to speculate on the reasons for these deaths.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 12:37
Quote Do you think that psychics such as those who help police solve crimes and missing persons cases are retrieving the information randomly? Or do you dismiss the idea altogether?

I don't have enough data to make a conclusion there, although I do know that the Police don't turn to these people unless they tun out of leads and that results are not a sparkling success overall. There are too many con artists making aliving out of these activities to say accurately whether anything about it is 'real'.

I do recall an instance some years ago when two ladies walking on french beach heard loud noises they described as like being in a battle. The correlation between what they described and events in 1944 were startling - but not proven, because ultimately we rely on the accuracy and honesty of the witnesses.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 2015 at 18:00
I don't have a problem listening to the ladies on the Normandy Beach, and tentatively believing in what they say, namely that they heard (or imagined they heard with the force of the imagination making it "real") something.  Going any further than this, as in, "give me money," or "convict this guy" is an entirely different question.  

On Thursdays on PBS, there were GK Chesterton murder mysteries, with a small English town priest c. 1920s as the main character.  The funny thing is, is that as a priest he believes in the supernatural (miracles of the Bible), but his solutions are always from rational deductions.  His acquaintances, who are in their opinion strict rationalists, often fall into a crass supernaturalist conclusion, whenever _they_ see that a rational explanation is not immediately forthcoming.

Unfortunately, in studying something in the University or at a lab means that something else doesn't get studied (or funded).  "The fighting is fiercest over the smallest ground."  As an outside observer, I don't really have any problem with parapsychology trying to figure out experimental angles from which to approach the question of detecting telepathy or other such phenomena.  A scientist, however, views it as an abomination and personal affront threatening the whole scientific endeavor, not to mention, his "cash cow."  He gets madder than a catholic when the Virgin Mary is insulted by some new atheist.  But, yes, Sheldrake does not convince me that there is something there.  On the other hand, I am not convinced that there is nothing there.  I find that it is muddled, and a big question mark, which as a philosopher, I do not feel that I have to know.  Sometimes knowing the question to ask is more important than the answer.  I would however, like to better understand his explanation of what he thinks is there, his morphogenetic field, which might explain to my theory inclined mind, a little better.  


Edited by franciscosan - 15 Jul 2015 at 18:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2015 at 11:34
There is a very famous case of child abduction when a psychic did find the right town but the claim was dismissed by police. Steven Stayner was abducted in 1972 and eventually escaped when his abductor Kenneth Parnell brought home another child Timothy White.

A psychic told Stayner's mother he was alive, which town he was in and that he was very much afraid. The kid had been taken and abused by Parnell only 20 miles from where Stayner's grandfather was living. He was there for seven years. Police didn't consider it a reliable lead, they figured the psychic is just randomly choosing location.

In a weird twist Steven's brother Cary was convicted of three murders in Yosemite National Park when he was working there as a park ranger in 1999.

Point is, the psychic did get a bead on where the kid was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 2015 at 11:40
Sheldrake addressed the cash problem with the understanding that changing the flow of research dollars would be too disruptive and suggests 5% of available monies would yield good results in a reasonably short amount of time.

The scientific mainstream dislikes Sheldrake but he is no slouch. He is a Cambridge graduate in Bio-chemistry he comes from the mainstream of scientific research. He is also an Anglican but did spend some years as an atheist mostly because he was influenced by world of scientific research.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2015 at 05:22

Telepathy Has Been Scientifically Proven to be Real


https://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/telepathy-has-been-scientifically-proven-to-be-real/


Obviously the results could be argued to still be within the margin of error.  On the other hand almost all physicists agree that reality is not without it's wrinkles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2015 at 11:41
Stargate and other such programs were started by the CIA about a decade after the Parapsychology program at Duke was ended. Recently declassified documents show some pretty amazing descriptions of locations, as subjects are asked to retrieve a mental image of where another participant is located.

Maybe more documents still kept secret. Wrinkles and all its really an expansion of what most of us have already experienced. My childhood friend and her mother could track the dad/husband and figure out which bar room he was at with stunning accuracy.


http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/CIA-InitiatedRV.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2015 at 06:47
If a new species of bird was found, a scientist could point at the bird and show/explain why it is different.  Perhaps, it would look like another species, but a scientist could explain how the two are different, or there might be debates about whether it was a species or a subspecies.
If there was a supernova in outer space, an astronomer could point out, or point to photos and point it out to a general audience.  If a black hole was found, an astronomer could point out the effects of its gravity on nearby stars and gas jets, etc.  

This following relates particularly to the blog linked to wolfhound's last post.  but also Vanuatu's link.

If "remote sensing" has been 'proven,' it hasn't been 'proven' like a new species of bird or a supernova.  With all the tests and meta-analyses, and meta-meta-analyses, it is a shadow, a nuance.  And without plunging into the meta-meta-study (and the meta-studies, and even the studies), one cannot decide for one's self the validity of such studies, or whether the meta-studies and the meta-meta-study is messaging the data or not.  
You know, I don't know if I *want* telepathy or remote sensing (or whatever), to be _proven_.  I have a mystic streak in me, and I feel that I already _feel_ it enough for my satisfaction.  Science analyzing things, but in order to analyze things it dissects them.  But the problem with dissection is that it pretty well kills the subject.  Are we sure that if we really _prove_ telepathy by scientific standards, that that is going to be a good thing?  Maybe it will kill off such obscure phenomena, or chase it away.  Star Gate, in exploring remote sensing is going at it, in a rather obvious way.  Think of telepathy as an animal, if you hunt it, it will disappear into the bushes, or you'll kill it.  Think telepathy as a tame animal which needs to be cajoled and tempted with treats.  I suspect it is _not_ a tame animal, but more like the birds of St. Francis of Assisi, who called the animals brother and sister, and the little birds (I imagine) perched on his shoulders.  Of course, the birds did the same thing to Shaq O'Neal when he did a 'living statue' at an art museum.  Go figure.  But, reading the blog about the Meta-Meta-analysis, etc, I cannot help but think that such work goes about it the wrong way.  That doesn't mean that that approach won't reveal a little something about such phenomena, but if you are really interested in such phenomena, look at the mystics.  But be warned that they approach that all very indirectly.  It is a gift that comes from the cosmos very infrequently, it doesn't come when you want it to come, it comes when it wants to come.  You try to force it, and you might just break it for good (or rather for bad, for you that is).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2015 at 12:02
Quote I have a mystic streak in me, and I feel that I already _feel_ it enough for my satisfaction. Science analyzing things, but in order to analyze things it dissects them. But the problem with dissection is that it pretty well kills the subject. Are we sure that if we really _prove_ telepathy by scientific standards, that that is going to be a good thing?


I don't see how it could be proven given the materialist standards and dogmas. Materialism became a belief system unto itself. The dogmas about the conservation of matter and energy for example. How do we know that amount of matter in the universe is same since the big bang? How do we know that the laws of matter will be ever unchanging?

Panpsychism was the world of Plato and St Thomas Aquinas. If the sun has a psyche then why not the universe and is there a galactic body making us something comparable to a cell. It's Descartes dualism that started pulling us away from nature. Doesn't Plato talk about the soul of a flower determining its shape?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2015 at 21:45
If you accept Sir Karl Popper's philosophy of science, science is never "proven" or verified.  It is falsifiable, because it is only by being falsifiable that science can advance, through the overturning of old theories.  A "scientific theory" that is not falsifiable is not a scientific theory (Marxist alienation, Freud).  People talk about the proof that science offers, technically (at least according to Popper), they are mistaken.  Scientific theories can last for hundreds of years (Newton's gravity), and be 'replaced' by a new theory (Einstein).  Of course, Newton is still good for most studies involving gravity, but then again navigating across an ocean without use of satellites uses a geocentric model of star charts revolving around the Earth. 

Panpsychism is fine for the mystic, but the mystic does not necessarily want to _do_ anything with the universe, other than be a part of it.  The scientist does.


Edited by franciscosan - 20 Jul 2015 at 21:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 05:00
Let me say that the scientist should do whatever the scientist wants to do, he does not owe anything to the mystic, unless he is getting something from the mystic (for example, a scientist who is studying Buddhist meditation practices on heart rate, owes gratitude to the monks who share with him their practice, what that gratitude translates into is between him and those monks.)  The scientist, however, owes it to science to come up with novel approaches at whatever phenomena he is studying.  But there is a difference between the personal certainty that people feel from their own experience, and the scientific certainty that is the goal of science.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wolfhnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 05:58
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Let me say that the scientist should do whatever the scientist wants to do, he does not owe anything to the mystic, unless he is getting something from the mystic (for example, a scientist who is studying Buddhist meditation practices on heart rate, owes gratitude to the monks who share with him their practice, what that gratitude translates into is between him and those monks.)  The scientist, however, owes it to science to come up with novel approaches at whatever phenomena he is studying.  But there is a difference between the personal certainty that people feel from their own experience, and the scientific certainty that is the goal of science.

Don't we all owe somethings to each other like honesty. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 2015 at 12:05
deception can play a role in experiments.  So "honesty" might not be a good example.
But yes, there certain virtues that we owe each other due to our humanity.
But the scientist does not owe an additional list of virtues just because he
is a scientist.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2015 at 18:09
Before the scientist who was there trying to get a grip on life? The farmer, mystic or shaman, the midwife even the hunters who painted Lascaux were guided by a psychic lead.

Life has become more complex not always better. Think of Rome legislating to manage the use of roads. There were too many people for at whim travel. Science can manage such things as growth but is the quality of life for most people good and commensurate with progress?

Science replaced the Old World I'm sure the world is no better for it and I agree its hardly more virtuous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2015 at 23:20
"psychic" is a word originating from Greece, whether it or something similar to it would be understood in Lascaux, I don't know.  We should be very careful about interpreting their experience through our words.
We can _say_ that they had a shaman, but that would be 20-30 thousand years before any character that we know as a shaman appears in history.  Shaman is one of those words that perhaps invites more questions than it answers. 

For complexity of life look at the Cambrian explosion, it has all been downhill from there.  did Rome legislate the use of roads?!?  I always thought that people could use them as long as they stayed out of the way of marching armies.
Whose fault is it, if people's quality of life is lacking?  Not that blaming anyone actually helps.  But, the fact is that a lot of people are damaged, and due to that damage, wallow in self-pity.  They are not physically prevented from bettering themselves, the resources in society are there, but rather they have limits on their ways of thinking that blind them from changing.

If everyone walked around with a knife or a gun, and nobody died, that would be virtuous.  If nobody walked around with a knife or a gun, and nobody died, well, it wouldn't be because of virtue, it might be, because of social engineering, but it would not really be virtuous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2015 at 18:42
The word psychic ad when it dates from means very little. Until recently there was no name for certain weather anomalies such as Sprites but we can be fairly assured that they existed.

When you cite lack of proof for paleolithic shaman, I'm puzzled. There is no proof of a risen messiah yet so may millions believe in one, thousands dies in the name of a risen messiah and so many more are prepared to die for the Islamic version of which there is no proof. This invites more doubt (to me) than known healers and spiritual guides who still use ancient practices based on oral history.

There no universally accepted cause for the Cambrian explosion, its used in the arguments both for and against intelligent design.

Julius Caesar legislated the use of Roman roads, that is a recorded fact.

I would say a greater complexity of life explains the increasing number of challenges to humans. More pollution more inequality in the use of dwindling resources. The resources are limited that is a problem.

Do you need a knife or gun to kill someone? Or to be cruel and diminish another human being? Its isn't virtuous to exercise restraint I'm not sure which point you are arguing there.

I say telepathy is inspiration whether we are talking about Jesus Christ, Einstein, Tesla or Beethoven. A wild animal giving birth knows what to do instinctively and it knows because of the body of self organizing intelligence, a condition of all living things.
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