| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Culture of the Gun
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


The Culture of the Gun

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
Panther View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 4520
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2014 at 01:03
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:



I know, another old post, but Panther hasn't changed his opinion if more recent posts are any indication.

GOOD ONYA MATE, SPOT ON



Nope, i haven't.
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
Panther View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 4520
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2014 at 01:06
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Originally posted by Birddog Birddog wrote:

It might be a bit off track, but something I am reading at the moment.
 
Back in 1942, one of the reasons behind the hostility toward American soldiers and sailors by Australian servicemen was "the tendency of some Americans to draw their knives and guns too freely makes them despised by men who are accustomed to settle their disputes without recourse to arms."
American MP's had troubles with Australian troops because "The carrying of arms, especially firearms, is provicative to most Australians and is apt to be regarded as a direct challange which shouold be taken up as soon as possible." "The Battle of Brisbane: Australia and American at War." Chapter 15. Peter Thompson and Robert Macklin
 
It seems that Australians have been critical of American gun culture for a long time.
 
From what I've read, I believe that the real reason for the Big Brisbane Brawl was more to do with women than guns. The US servicemen in Australia on R&R were more highly paid than the Australian soldiers, had access to nylon stocking and had flashier uniforms.
 
They openly rubbed the Australian soldiers' noses in their financial superiority and eventually got the result they didn't expect.
 
True, the reliance of US servicemen on guns and knives instead of bare knuckles also gave rise to the Australians decrying the yanks ability to fight man to man.
 
There were many investigations into the cause of the disturbance and many a discussion on how to ease the tensions and avoid a similar event. Besides the obvious effect of the liquor imbibed on the night of the disturbance, the other main contributing factors that seem to have raised the deep-seated frustration amongst the Australian servicemen were:-

- American pay levels compared to the Australians
- smarter American uniforms compared to the Australians
- shops and hotels favouring the well-paid Americans
- Americans pinching their Aussie girls (and in some cases their wives)
- and the Americans' custom of caressing girls in public

Private Norbert Grant was court-marshalled for manslaughter on 27 February 1943 but found not guilty, on the grounds of self-defence. Five Australians were convicted for assault as a result of the "Battle of Brisbane" with one person being jailed for 6 months.



For any other country, or citizens from another country, to understand the gun culture in the US would be a unique proposition.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4110
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2014 at 02:19
Constantine:
I was involved in the Port Arthur massacre from a policing angle.
 
If all Americans had to attend a mortuary near their home and view the bodies of the 35 victims, including two very small, defenceless girls, perhaps they would think differently.
 
NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE MY MIND ON GUN CONTROL, IT WORKS!!
I often wonder why I try.
Back to Top
Panther View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 4520
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2014 at 03:33
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Constantine:
I was involved in the Port Arthur massacre from a policing angle.
 
If all Americans had to attend a mortuary near their home and view the bodies of the 35 victims, including two very small, defenceless girls, perhaps they would think differently.
 


Actually, i don't think this tactic would solve a thing except to make a controversial issue that much more unreasonable and intractable.

Quote
NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE MY MIND ON GUN CONTROL, IT WORKS!!


There seems to be a misconception that the US lacks gun control. That is not true. More or less it has the same laws in place as other countries, and in some areas laws even more draconian than is usually reported on, and in these areas gun violence is at it's worst. But, like i have said before, what works for others doesn't seem to necessarily work for everybody.


Edited by Panther - 10 Mar 2014 at 03:34
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4110
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2014 at 04:53
Panther:
Imo, to say that the US has gun control is akin to saying that there are no holes in the US/Mexico border.
 
There is a little control in some states, but the number of guns in American homes is unknown. The types are unknown and the number of people who carry concealed firearms is unknown.
 
And these things will never be known.
 
I agree with you in that what works for some, doesn't necessarily work for others, and as I've said before, it is now too late to really try and make Gun Control in the USA work.
 
Just about every American citizen must live in fear of what could happen in their neighbourhood.
I often wonder why I try.
Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 10361
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2014 at 07:48
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


For any other country, or citizens from another country, to understand the gun culture in the US would be a unique proposition.

Then perhaps the US citizens we are talking to, haven't explained it well enough.
Why is it so unique that no other country, or citizens from another country can comprehend it?

I think most of the western world should have a chance to understand if someone would educate them. We all know about the past history of the US so that is not the problem. 
But so far, I haven't seen anything that in my mind can explain why good thinking people like yourself can accept a gun related killing rate of 10 times higher than other comparable western countries, and still think defend the US culture of guns. 

But I would like to learn - so please educate me and most of all, what do you think should be done about it - if anything.

~ North




   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4110
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2014 at 09:29
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:


For any other country, or citizens from another country, to understand the gun culture in the US would be a unique proposition.

Then perhaps the US citizens we are talking to, haven't explained it well enough.
Why is it so unique that no other country, or citizens from another country can comprehend it?

I think most of the western world should have a chance to understand if someone would educate them. We all know about the past history of the US so that is not the problem. 
But so far, I haven't seen anything that in my mind can explain why good thinking people like yourself can accept a gun related killing rate of 10 times higher than other comparable western countries, and still think defend the US culture of guns. 

But I would like to learn - so please educate me and most of all, what do you think should be done about it - if anything.

~ North

Clap Well said North, it's impossible for us to comprehend, but perhaps Panther can try. The members of the NRA aren't all lunatics either, that's why I simply can't understand why they so vehemently defend gun possession.

Blazing Guns



Edited by toyomotor - 10 Mar 2014 at 09:32
I often wonder why I try.
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2014 at 15:20
I'm reminded of an anecdote from my home town. back in 1904, a young man was drinking in a working mans pub and had basically gotten a bit too inebriated. Showing off to the barmaids, he was waving a revolver around. Back then, it was legal for britons to carry guns - though this was mstly discreet and not ofen done. The landlord reckoned he'd had too much and asked him to leave, whereupon he was threatened by the young man. Immediately the locals came down on the young man, took away his gun, and although it isn't specifically mentioned, gave him a pasting for his bad behaviour before the policemen turned up. He went to prison for a couple of years. However, this was in spite of the discovery that the revolver was broken and couldn't be discharged.

Imagine that situation today. The pub would empty, very quickly. But then Britons are not allowed to carry guns in public, and require landowners permission to use them in private, besides the licensing requirements (which despite occaisional scandals, does work - I made an ill advised comment about buying a shotgun once and had the police knocking on my door over it six months after it had been forgotten). Events like the Hungerford and Dunblane shootings are very rare in Britain - those are the only two I can think of.


Edited by caldrail - 10 Mar 2014 at 15:20
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
Panther View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 4520
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2014 at 22:15
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:


Then perhaps the US citizens we are talking to, haven't explained it well enough.
Why is it so unique that no other country, or citizens from another country can comprehend it?


I gather it is because of politics, the looseness of applied statistics, news reports and subjectivity.

Quote
I think most of the western world should have a chance to understand if someone would educate them. We all know about the past history of the US so that is not the problem. 
But so far, I haven't seen anything that in my mind can explain why good thinking people like yourself can accept a gun related killing rate of 10 times higher than other comparable western countries, and still think defend the US culture of guns. 


It isn't the good, law abiding, gun registering, gun owning folks that are the problem. Inner city strife, gang activity, drugs and decades long government policies  that i think are feeding off of one another. That, plus the infrequent psychologically impaired gun rampage. These are the reports that drive the news and color foreigners perceptions of the US and guns. Seriously, to hear the news report it, every American with a gun is shooting at their neighbor. It's preposterous! How can a single American, like myself, counter such wide spread and tightly held beliefs such as this?

Quote
But I would like to learn - so please educate me and most of all, what do you think should be done about it - if anything.

~ North


For one thing, rethinking our drug laws by decriminalizing it would likely
see a remarkable decrease in gun driven violence in quite a few inner cities in the US. Then, by us recognizing and not relying on the imperfection of statistics and their use by lobbyists with their own agendas. And of course, not taking news reports on US gun violence at face value.


Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 10361
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 00:32
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:


Then perhaps the US citizens we are talking to, haven't explained it well enough.
Why is it so unique that no other country, or citizens from another country can comprehend it?


I gather it is because of politics, the looseness of applied statistics, news reports and subjectivity.
Panther, your statement was this:
"For any other country, or citizens from another country, to understand the gun culture in the US would be a unique proposition." 
- and I asked to be educated...  so let me ask more directly - What is the gun culture in the US?
Can you please explain it in a few comprehend-able sentences.

Quote
I think most of the western world should have a chance to understand if someone would educate them. We all know about the past history of the US so that is not the problem. 
But so far, I haven't seen anything that in my mind can explain why good thinking people like yourself can accept a gun related killing rate of 10 times higher than other comparable western countries, and still think defend the US culture of guns. 
Quote
It isn't the good, law abiding, gun registering, gun owning folks that are the problem. 

I have visited your country many times and I know this to be true. They are not the problem but IMO they contribute indirectly to the problem since practically all of them owns one or more firearms - and defend their right to own them.
This increases inevitably the total number of firearms - and thus the number available for other less law abiding citizens who are less picky about when they use a gun and for what.
Quote
Inner city strife, gang activity, drugs and decades long government policies  that i think are feeding off of one another. That, plus the infrequent psychologically impaired gun rampage. These are the reports that drive the news and color foreigners perceptions of the US and guns. Seriously, to hear the news report it, every American with a gun is shooting at their neighbor. It's preposterous! How can a single American, like myself, counter such wide spread and tightly held beliefs such as this?
You don't have to counter it for my sake - as I said, normal people don't shoot at one another - but almost all normal people think it necessary to own one or more guns, not for fun but for personal safety  .... and that's the core issue imo....

I think most Americans want to own a gun because their neighbor owns a gun, and the neighbors neighbor and so on. The sheer knowledge that everyone else - from the nice guy next door to any individual gang member in the cities owns a gun, makes everyone think he needs to have a gun to defend himself - just in case.... 
Then you have this vast number of guns with easy access for criminals to get them.
No one trust the police to be able to handle crime and criminals - you must be prepared yourself.

Quote
But I would like to learn - so please educate me and most of all, what do you think should be done about it - if anything.

~ North
Quote
For one thing, rethinking our drug laws by decriminalizing it would likely
see a remarkable decrease in gun driven violence in quite a few inner cities in the US. Then, by us recognizing and not relying on the imperfection of statistics and their use by lobbyists with their own agendas. And of course, not taking news reports on US gun violence at face value. 

Decriminalizing drugs?...  yes, that will of course help.
But then again - which crimes should be decriminalized next? 

The public statistics could be flawed, but not that flawed. I'm more leery about those from the NRA.

 ~ North
   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4110
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 01:47
Northman:
Again, I totally agree with you.
 
It's my perception that in fact the honest gun owning people in America do not trust their Police to protect them, their lives and property.
 
So it becomes a circular argument.
 
I own a gun.
 
My house is burgled and the gun is stolen.
 
Another "illegal" gun on the street.
 
I buy another gun.
 
I'll go along with the fact, basically, that law abiding folks who own a gun are not the problem, it's the criminals and the mentally deranged who cause problems, but why do Americans need to have access to weapons like Assault Rifles, MP5's, MP10's and Uzis?
 
But, how to Americans claim justification for ownership of the Assault rifles etc?
 
If these weapons were outlawed, it would be a step in the right direction, their possession can not be justified under any circumstances.
 
That would leave just hunting type long barrel weapons and hand guns on the market.
 
 
I often wonder why I try.
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 04:59
What is often overlooked in this discourse, IMO, is that it is very tough to come to a clinical definition of "good guy" or "decent folks". Yes of course there are extremes that stand out, but often horrendous crimes can be committed by those that many will later express shock about. "He seemed like a nice guy", they will say. "He was quite and polite, and a hard worker. Who would have guessed?" Even the most solid citizen can become depressed, outraged, financially desperate, fall victim to mental health issues, get into raging arguments, or get drunk and belligerent. In one recent case in Texas, religious fervor was the motive, and the culprit was an army officer, of all things.

Human psychology is complex, and statements like a recent one from the head of the NRA that said more guns should be in the hands of the "good guys", are laughably simplistic. The dividing line between good and evil is sharp in Hollywood, but not so much in real life. The more guns handed out, the more gun deaths there will be, statistically.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4110
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 06:17
Originally posted by Captain Vancouver Captain Vancouver wrote:

What is often overlooked in this discourse, IMO, is that it is very tough to come to a clinical definition of "good guy" or "decent folks". Yes of course there are extremes that stand out, but often horrendous crimes can be committed by those that many will later express shock about. "He seemed like a nice guy", they will say. "He was quite and polite, and a hard worker. Who would have guessed?" Even the most solid citizen can become depressed, outraged, financially desperate, fall victim to mental health issues, get into raging arguments, or get drunk and belligerent. In one recent case in Texas, religious fervor was the motive, and the culprit was an army officer, of all things.

Human psychology is complex, and statements like a recent one from the head of the NRA that said more guns should be in the hands of the "good guys", are laughably simplistic. The dividing line between good and evil is sharp in Hollywood, but not so much in real life. The more guns handed out, the more gun deaths there will be, statistically.
 
 
No argument here Captain.
 
I spent more than 30 years as a Police Officer, almost 15 of them as a Detective.
 
I've seen first hand good turn to evil without much apparent provocation. 
I often wonder why I try.
Back to Top
caldrail View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2014
Location: Rushey Platt
Status: Offline
Points: 949
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 13:03
Not wishing to criticise America overly but as an outside observer it just seems to me that Americans, particularly the rurual citizens, are mired in a nineteenth century mentality - they still see themselves living on some kind of frontier. Also there's an inescapable idiom that a gun equates to manhood, linked to personal confidence when so armed and the opportunity of intimidating those without arms. On the one hand America espouses an odd sort of ancient style 'warrior mentailty' (by the sale of guns specifically for children and the stated moral value of armament), but also a sort of societal paranoia concerning defence which to me appears to be generated by the presence of arms, itself a right written into the constitution of the country, which is of course a colonial period standard rather than any modern necessity. At the same time however, it's a notable oddity of US forces that they suffer more psychological problems among their soldiers who appear incapable of functioning adequately without heavy metal music blasting away in their headphones.

I understand that Americans reading this might have cause to disagree, but this is how you guys come across. Without a gun you feel emasculated. With a gun, you're a man, a warrior, a defender, a hero, or simply the biggest baddest bad-ass on the block. The whole concept just seems incredibly outdated and even immature to outsiders.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4110
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Mar 2014 at 14:27
Cadrail wrote:
"...At the same time however, it's a notable oddity of US forces that they suffer more psychological problems among their soldiers who appear incapable of functioning adequately without heavy metal music blasting away in their headphones."
 
This phenomena became widely apparent during the Viet Nam war. It may be remembered that at one FSB, long haired soldiers wearing head bands and Peace necklaces mutinied because they hadn't had any ice cream delivered. This, and many other factors convinced many people that the US soldiers, in the main, were very well equipped, well supported by technology and firepower but poorly trained and adjusted to military life.
 
However, back on topic, I wonder if the American military determination to have the biggest and best arsenal in the world feeds the American psyche in it's need for weapons, not just weapons, but the biggest, best and fastest that they can get their hands on.
 
As Caldrail, Northman and others have already said, the American demand for firearms, particularly after witnessing some really horrific school massacres, is not easily explained to the rest of us.
 
It would be one thing if we could write it off as "phallic fascination", the guns being an extension of the male hormonal urge to dominate, as in "my guns better than your gun". But women are also widely involved, and now prepubescent children as well.
 
Caldrail mentions the rural Americans seeming to have retained a 19th Century mentality. I'd call it a "Fortress Mentality", where every household becomes just that, an armed fortress from which to repel invaders. That in and of itself is frightening, but, imho, it's in the larger cities where teen gang bangers get their hands on firearms and engage on senseless "drive by" shootings that really terrifies. This is territory where, to own a firearm and to have killed  is mandatory in order to prove manhood.
 
I guess we rational people will never understand and the Americans will never understand why we don't.


Edited by toyomotor - 11 Mar 2014 at 14:27
I often wonder why I try.
Back to Top
Panther View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 4520
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2014 at 00:51
Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

What is the gun culture in the US?
Can you please explain it in a few comprehend-able sentences.


I'll try.

To understand what it is, is too understand how deeply embedded it has been ever since the founding of the US. Historically speaking, our gun culture can be easily seen first and foremost in the constitution. Then there are sporting events or just the enjoyment of shooting guns at ranges. Than there is subsistence or supplemental hunting.

It can be seen in our ethos from the days of the militia to the spirit of the frontier. The latter is easily seen (Often mythologized) in Hollywood westerns being epitomized by the cowboy. Or in a more modern sense.... gangster/crime films to law and order films. While the former was a dire necessity most of the time due to government budgetary reasons, the result of such practices was the hastily organized citizen militia was often the only defense from either a foreign threat of Native attacks upon settlements of civilians. 

It can also be seen as a great equalizer between the physically strong versus the extremely weak. For example, a buff  knife/club wielding male attacking and looking to do great harm to a granny who happens to own a gun. Or in a historical setting, say during the civil rights era, a black family survival by owning multiple guns was the only thing standing between them and the violence prone KKK.

But more privately and personal, it was a right of passage for a boy entering manhood to get their first gun and taught it's significance from the father, as mine had done.

I suppose it could be said not to be that dissimilar to people who build a culture around cars, horse racing/car racing, sex, drugs, alcohol, entertainment, military, the study history/science/ astronomy and ect.. that is, it seems to be in the blood and the need to be around it.

I hope this answers your question? If not, then please let me know.

Quote
I have visited your country many times and I know this to be true. They are not the problem but IMO they contribute indirectly to the problem since practically all of them owns one or more firearms - and defend their right to own them.
This increases inevitably the total number of firearms - and thus the number available for other less law abiding citizens who are less picky about when they use a gun and for what.


This may very well be true and irrefutable evidence that we are the cause of our own misfortune. Maybe? However,  i don't see the extreme limitations imposed on the ordinary citizens right to gun ownership as a great deterrent to those of the criminal mind. Whether they arm  themselves with knives, clubs, chains, brass knuckles or any means necessary  to their own criminal ends, they are still more organized and motivated than a law abiding gun owning citizen looking to not harm anyone, which means often a gun is the only means of survival left to a citizen's last ditch effort at self protection when confronted by violent or criminal groups looking for victims.

Quote You don't have to counter it for my sake - as I said, normal people don't shoot at one another - but almost all normal people think it necessary to own one or more guns, not for fun but for personal safety  .... and that's the core issue imo....

I think most Americans want to own a gun because their neighbor owns a gun, and the neighbors neighbor and so on. The sheer knowledge that everyone else - from the nice guy next door to any individual gang member in the cities owns a gun, makes everyone think he needs to have a gun to defend himself - just in case.... 
Then you have this vast number of guns with easy access for criminals to get them.
No one trust the police to be able to handle crime and criminals - you must be prepared yourself.


I don't disagree, that self protection is very important issue to the individual American, as i did note above. But, i do honestly believe that the non-harmful fun hundreds of millions of Americans do really have with their firearms on a daily basis is often far more overlooked by the power of a sensational news report and the need to sell copies the globe over. In essence, the truth of a matter has been subverted for a stereotype, ergo, creating a climate of fear nation or global wide of American society as a whole.



Quote Decriminalizing drugs?...  yes, that will of course help.
But then again - which crimes should be decriminalized next? 


Can you imagine making an honest person out of a drug lord or drug pusher? Alcohol producers and bar owners can attest to the success in the repeal of prohibition in this country. Except for the stupidity of drunk drivers and the great harm their actions bring to families touched by their arrogance. Make me kind of wonder what might be the fall out from drug legalization?

What should be decriminalized next? I don't think any other current crime laws deserve the attention of redress as like our current issue of drug criminalization. No other trade in the world has caused more deaths the globe over, minus a declared war.
To this point, what drove me to rethink my position on drug decriminalization, is the hundreds of thousands of needless Mexican deaths brought about because of the supply and demand for drugs here in this country. Our drug users in this country are literally killing and murdering (Inadvertently of course) our neighbors to the south and all of our policies haven't made a positive dent in redressing the issue.

Quote
The public statistics could be flawed, but not that flawed. I'm more leery about those from the NRA.

 ~ North


From what i have observed, where ever politics and statistics are involved, the net results of the conclusions are usually and often flawed to a particular bias. A huge grain of salt should be taken when dealing with issues that combine the two.
Back to Top
Panther View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 4520
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2014 at 01:02
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Northman:
Again, I totally agree with you.
 
It's my perception that in fact the honest gun owning people in America do not trust their Police to protect them, their lives and property.
 


I don't believe it is due to a lack of trust in the police, but their response time (Between 3 to 5 minutes) is often alluded too and equated with the difference between either death or survival.

 
Quote
I'll go along with the fact, basically, that law abiding folks who own a gun are not the problem, it's the criminals and the mentally deranged who cause problems, but why do Americans need to have access to weapons like Assault Rifles, MP5's, MP10's and Uzis?
 
But, how to Americans claim justification for ownership of the Assault rifles etc?
 
If these weapons were outlawed, it would be a step in the right direction, their possession can not be justified under any circumstances.
 
That would leave just hunting type long barrel weapons and hand guns on the market.
 


A proliferation of either type and use of these weapons in the commission of a crime doesn't solve the problem of why a crime was committed in the first place. For that matter, crimes involving lethal weapons are just as equally deadly than the simplicity of  pulling the trigger. Regretfully and sadly, two or three dozen dead Chinese just found that out the hard way by a knife wielding fanatics.
Back to Top
Panther View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 4520
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2014 at 01:20
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

Not wishing to criticise America overly but as an outside observer it just seems to me that Americans, particularly the rurual citizens, are mired in a nineteenth century mentality - they still see themselves living on some kind of frontier.


Actually, i think this is the unfair stereotype i've been trying to address. It is not the rural areas where the proliferation of gun violence prevails, but in some of our more troubled inner cities. I would like to note, that even in these American cities, they aren't anymore prone to violence than other peaceful cities around the globe, but only certain areas of these cities that are facing dire issues that haven't been identified, acknowledged and finally addressed.
I mean Chicago or Detroit get a bum wrap because of the issues that are afflicting them and that is because a small percentage of these cities have suffered a form of collapse that the rest of their city hadn't had to deal with. My best guess is that 80% plus of either of these cities are just as safe to wander around as any other nearly crime free cities in the world. The only thing is, safe to visit areas do not sell newspapers like spilled blood does!AngryAngryAngry

Quote
I understand that Americans reading this might have cause to disagree, but this is how you guys come across. Without a gun you feel emasculated. With a gun, you're a man, a warrior, a defender, a hero, or simply the biggest baddest bad-ass on the block. The whole concept just seems incredibly outdated and even immature to outsiders.


I see no reason to feel harmed by your belief. I greatly respect your opinion and it takes a lot to offend me.

Truth be told, for me personally... i don't feel one bit emasculated without my guns. I do enjoy collecting other types of weapons and studying other forms of self defense: Compound bow, collecting knives and swords or studying Tae Kwon Do. Okay the last one was in my teenage years, but it was a crap loads of fun to learn when i did.


Edited by Panther - 12 Mar 2014 at 01:23
Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2014 at 02:36
It's true that statistics can be slippery, and open to all sorts of bias. However, they only stretch so far, before snapping back in one's face in rude fashion. Gun deaths are vastly higher in the US, as compared to other stable liberal democracies. Yes, one can say that gun violence is higher in troubled inner city areas. But this would be the same anywhere. One is much more likely to get shot on the mean streets of east end Vancouver, than in the bucolic wheat fields of Saskatchewan, for example. All this says is that violence and strife will be concentrated, not surprisingly, in areas with the most socio-economic problems. The key point here is that there is still less chance of being shot in said areas of Vancouver, than in the equivalent in the US. And there is still less chance of being shot in the wheat fields, than the equivalent in the US, although the odds are lower in both cases in this second example.

Even in the hands of well meaning people, more guns means statistically more deaths, even if they come from such methods of suicide or accident. Very few today, with perhaps the exception of true nutters like Rand Paul,or similar, object to things like regulating health standards for restaurants, safety rules for daycare centers, how to drive a car, where and when- or  if- one can smoke, etc. So why not rules for one of the most lethal products we know?
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 15 Feb 2014
Location: Tasmania, AUST.
Status: Offline
Points: 4110
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar 2014 at 02:37
Panther:
Feeling besieged?Smile
 
Australia had a background similar in many ways to that of the USA, except for the fact that the majority of our early arrivals were convicted criminals.
 
True, many of the crimes were so petty as to not rate a mention these days, some were political, for example the Irish White Boys etc. but there were also some very hard men.
 
We also had "frontiers" and gold rushes which saw the arrival of many ne're do wells, and many men carried firearms to protect themselves from Aborigines, gold thieves or bushrangers.
 
But we moved on from the gun carrying mentality to what we are today.
 
Like most others posting on this thread, I simply cannot understand where you're coming from.
 
But, this is my last word on this topic.
I often wonder why I try.
Back to Top
Panther View Drop Down
Moderator
Moderator
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 4520
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2014 at 02:33
Originally posted by toyomotor toyomotor wrote:

Panther:
Feeling besieged?Smile
 


You don't know the half of it.

Big smile

Quote
Australia had a background similar in many ways to that of the USA, except for the fact that the majority of our early arrivals were convicted criminals.
 
True, many of the crimes were so petty as to not rate a mention these days, some were political, for example the Irish White Boys etc. but there were also some very hard men.
 
We also had "frontiers" and gold rushes which saw the arrival of many ne're do wells, and many men carried firearms to protect themselves from Aborigines, gold thieves or bushrangers.
 
But we moved on from the gun carrying mentality to what we are today.
 
Like most others posting on this thread, I simply cannot understand where you're coming from.
 
But, this is my last word on this topic.


Unlike our other Anglosphere brother country's, what sets the US apart from them is that they didn't have to fight the British Empire for independence. A fight that would have been impossible if Americans to win if we  had no guns, but the British did. It's been etched into our DNA ever since.


Back to Top
Captain Vancouver View Drop Down
Council Member
Council Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 Sep 2010
Location: Vancouver Isle
Status: Offline
Points: 2160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Captain Vancouver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2014 at 04:55
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

 


Unlike our other Anglosphere brother country's, what sets the US apart from them is that they didn't have to fight the British Empire for independence. A fight that would have been impossible if Americans to win if we  had no guns, but the British did. It's been etched into our DNA ever since.
 


But many countries have undergone their own revolution and/or armed turmoil of all sorts, yet today have arrived at a much different attitude on guns, and for some the experience has been much more recent. Even sedate, overly polite Canada had its own armed insurrection in 1837. Some important concessions were gained from that, but no one today is advocating a flintlock over every mantle.

In fact the victory of the American colonists came about due to a confluence of events, certainly not least the intervention of France and Spain (and their professional military) on the side of the US. The old argument of brave citizens against evil big government is becoming awfully tired indeed.
Back to Top
Northman View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
~ Scylding ~

Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 10361
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar 2014 at 11:04
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Originally posted by Northman Northman wrote:

What is the gun culture in the US?
Can you please explain it in a few comprehend-able sentences.


I'll try.

To understand what it is, is too understand how deeply embedded it has been ever since the founding of the US. Historically speaking, our gun culture can be easily seen first and foremost in the constitution. Then there are sporting events or just the enjoyment of shooting guns at ranges. Than there is subsistence or supplemental hunting.

It can be seen in our ethos from the days of the militia to the spirit of the frontier. The latter is easily seen (Often mythologized) in Hollywood westerns being epitomized by the cowboy. Or in a more modern sense.... gangster/crime films to law and order films. While the former was a dire necessity most of the time due to government budgetary reasons, the result of such practices was the hastily organized citizen militia was often the only defense from either a foreign threat of Native attacks upon settlements of civilians. 

It can also be seen as a great equalizer between the physically strong versus the extremely weak. For example, a buff  knife/club wielding male attacking and looking to do great harm to a granny who happens to own a gun. Or in a historical setting, say during the civil rights era, a black family survival by owning multiple guns was the only thing standing between them and the violence prone KKK.

But more privately and personal, it was a right of passage for a boy entering manhood to get their first gun and taught it's significance from the father, as mine had done.

I suppose it could be said not to be that dissimilar to people who build a culture around cars, horse racing/car racing, sex, drugs, alcohol, entertainment, military, the study history/science/ astronomy and ect.. that is, it seems to be in the blood and the need to be around it.

I hope this answers your question? If not, then please let me know. 

Thanks Panther - a very good summation and yes - it answers my question about the culture and I can recognize all your examples as traits in my US friends.
As you probably know - my interest is of course historical/cultural but also an interest in getting to terms with the modern general US populations acceptence of the cost for this culture - the high rate of gun related killings compared to other countries. The sheer number of firearms are to blame...
Statistics can be manipulative I know - but the number of killings speaks volume.  

Of cultural reasons you mention, The Constitution - the Spirit of the Frontier and Civil Right Era. 
The latter two are interesting historical periods, but cannot have any validity today in respect to guns, except for sentimental reasons. Some people desperately cling on to the 2nd am. in the Constitution - but that was made 250 years ago to counter a situation which no longer exists - so from an unbiased logical angle, that should be considered historical as well and not as a good reason for private ownership of firearms.

Other reasons...
"The weak must be able to defend themselves"
Why?
Can you envision the old granny with a shotgun, defending herself from two armed burglars?
She would be dead before she even got the barrel pointing in the right direction. 
Her only chance would be - not to be armed. Better lose a new TV-set than your life.
If burglars expect the citizens to be armed - they will need to arm themselves better. 
Burglars in Denmark are not armed because only a very few citizens are armed and those who are, would never consider using a firearm in that situation - it would be murder.

"The father/son/hunter situation, all good activities - but what does a gun has to do with entering manhood?  Are we back in Dodge City 1879?

I know there is a certain element of "showing off" with a gun, but I don't feel a lesser man because I don't own five guns. 

You mention fascination in the same sense like we can be fascinated with other things - like a hobby of collecting cars, stamps or whatever we like to do. So let me ask - why not collect stamps instead of guns?.
I'm quite fascinated with good looking redheads - and would like a good collection and that could stimulate my manhood more than a any firearm. But that is probably almost as bad as collecting guns - at least my wife would think so. Wink

Quote
I have visited your country many times and I know this to be true. They are not the problem but IMO they contribute indirectly to the problem since practically all of them owns one or more firearms - and defend their right to own them.
This increases inevitably the total number of firearms - and thus the number available for other less law abiding citizens who are less picky about when they use a gun and for what.

Quote
This may very well be true and irrefutable evidence that we are the cause of our own misfortune. Maybe? However,  i don't see the extreme limitations imposed on the ordinary citizens right to gun ownership as a great deterrent to those of the criminal mind. Whether they arm  themselves with knives, clubs, chains, brass knuckles or any means necessary  to their own criminal ends, they are still more organized and motivated than a law abiding gun owning citizen looking to not harm anyone, which means often a gun is the only means of survival left to a citizen's last ditch effort at self protection when confronted by violent or criminal groups looking for victims.

"A gun as the only means to survival left for self protection"
But as you just said, the criminals are more organized and motivated than a law abiding gun owning citizen looking to not harm anyone.  That is exactly why it is suicide to meet the criminals armed - they are prepared to use their weapons - the civilian will hesitate to use his.
Besides - the criminals usually don't come to kill you - but to rob you for your guns for new members of their gang.

Quote You don't have to counter it for my sake - as I said, normal people don't shoot at one another - but almost all normal people think it necessary to own one or more guns, not for fun but for personal safety  .... and that's the core issue imo....

I think most Americans want to own a gun because their neighbor owns a gun, and the neighbors neighbor and so on. The sheer knowledge that everyone else - from the nice guy next door to any individual gang member in the cities owns a gun, makes everyone think he needs to have a gun to defend himself - just in case.... 
Then you have this vast number of guns with easy access for criminals to get them.
No one trust the police to be able to handle crime and criminals - you must be prepared yourself.

Quote
I don't disagree, that self protection is very important issue to the individual American, as i did note above. But, i do honestly believe that the non-harmful fun hundreds of millions of Americans do really have with their firearms on a daily basis is often far more overlooked by the power of a sensational news report and the need to sell copies the globe over. In essence, the truth of a matter has been subverted for a stereotype, ergo, creating a climate of fear nation or global wide of American society as a whole.


Again you mention the fascination and fun of owing guns as a major reason for having guns.

Quote Decriminalizing drugs?...  yes, that will of course help.
But then again - which crimes should be decriminalized next? 

Quote
Can you imagine making an honest person out of a drug lord or drug pusher? Alcohol producers and bar owners can attest to the success in the repeal of prohibition in this country. Except for the stupidity of drunk drivers and the great harm their actions bring to families touched by their arrogance. Make me kind of wonder what might be the fall out from drug legalization?

What should be decriminalized next? I don't think any other current crime laws deserve the attention of redress as like our current issue of drug criminalization. No other trade in the world has caused more deaths the globe over, minus a declared war.
To this point, what drove me to rethink my position on drug decriminalization, is the hundreds of thousands of needless Mexican deaths brought about because of the supply and demand for drugs here in this country. Our drug users in this country are literally killing and murdering (Inadvertently of course) our neighbors to the south and all of our policies haven't made a positive dent in redressing the issue.
This is a different matter - but yes - I understand your point of view, but I'm not sure it's the way to go. If we are talking pot/grass/marijuana etc. then it's probably a good idea to free some resources by legalizing it and concentrate on heavy drug-crimes.




   
   If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.    (Albert Einstein)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.