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The Garamantes

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    Posted: 11 Feb 2010 at 13:09


The Garamantes were a kingdom of the Sahara in North Africa, just as the Songhai empire, Ghana Empire ,Nubian Kush civilization ,and  Mali empires were . The Garamantes may have been part of the Sao-civilization some researchers have speculated,and the Garamantian civilization indeed extended their influence into the interior of the Sahara desert all the towards the Sahelian regions.The Garamantes civilization spanned from 900 BC TO 600 AD In this post I would like to evaluate the knowledge of the Garamantes and their effect on Roman life.



                                    The Garamantes neighbors included the Nasamones who were towards  the North, the Augilaes lying further south than the Nasomenes,  Marmarideans  who border Cyrenae all the way to Ammon. (Strabo  Geographica Book XVII verse 23). Towards  the north were tribes called the Numidians, the Massaeylians which where scattered from Cephalae to Carthage, lying right next to them west would be the Maurusians.  The Garamantes country bore a splendid wonder for the covetous Romans, it yielded the plant called silphium, which was used for multiple medicinal purposes. The Gaetulians were  exactly westward of the Garamantes in the Sahara past the Hoggar (Ahaggar)mountains ,a collection of bandit tribes that at times may have been  pseudo allies of Romans. Other times  a nuisance embarking on capers to plunder   Roman towns or victimize traveling Roman  merchant caravans across the desert. Gaetulians meant dweller of the south or southerner of the ‘’Atlas mountains’’ according to scholars. Gaetulians  were  denoted as  a tribe,  confederation of tribes, or a nation itself depending on the prescribed  context. Their description and ethnic make varied from place to place, periodical time to periodical time, as they are later referred to as Melangaetulians  in the later roman eras.

               The Garamantes marital life was not cohesive , the  men were promiscuous refusing to marry in some instances ,and when spouses  did, the men would have multiple wives. Some say the Garamantian empire  dates to 900BCE they built Zinchecra in the area of  Wadi- al Hayat which was their first capital. Garamantes would later build  ‘’Garama’’(Germa,Garma, or Jerma) which was to become their capital.

              
              The name Garamantes is a greek name, it was first mentioned by Herodotus, but although the Greek coined the term for people Living in Southern Libya and what is now the country of  Niger we cannot be certain of what the Garamantes  actually called themselves. Scholars have been searching to uncover  the actual etymology of the term, but it was relatively an umbrella term for the array of tribes  situated in or around  Fezzan , but undoubtedly  it was mainly  pertaining to the  people of Southern Libya modern day ‘’Niger’ and  areas of Algeria and Chad’ . A Garamantian king  that accompanied Julius Martinus also claimed that his domain was also the country  Agisymba, which would be the part of the Sahara that entails the  Lake Chad region  The ‘’Garamantum Defile’’ as Ptolemy records it was  a vast amount of territory, as the Melanogaetulians inhabited the Western part of the Great Desert so did the Garamantes. The boundary for the territory would be drawn at Bagradas and Usargala mountain. . The Garamantes  guesstimated extended area of control, was from South to East to near Lake Nuba(Lake Nasser in the Sudan ) both banks of the river Gir(Niger) as far as the mountains called Garamantica PHARANX ,East of Mount Thala and North of mount  Arangas . The Garamantes .



              Pliny The Elder proposes in the ''Natural History'' Book V chapter 5 to say that Amantes were a tribe surrounded by sands in every direction, drew  water under  the desert sand ,and  built house with blocks of salt. What is certain that the Garamantes reserved water in their underground water system called foggaras, that was supplied  from aquifer resources laying beneath the deserts of the Sahara.  New archaeological evidence indicates that the Garamantes fished in Lakes for shrimp and other delicacies. What Pliny the Elder describes as the ‘’Amantes’’ might be a particular tribe in the ''Garamantian kingdom'' , as they were many tribes listed such as the , Niteris and Bubelium. One would ponder the etymology of the term Garamantes. It may be a conjecture of Amantes and Garama, or another variant of etymological  origination   being a  combination of the names for  the river  ''Gir'' and'' Amante'', Ptolemy seems to extend into the Kingdoms territory. Archaeologist have uncovered over 50,000 tombs of the Garamantes. some being made of pyramid styles.


Pliny the Elder  makes a mention of the ‘’Nation of Trogolodyta’’, Romans  nominal reason for interacting with this group  was for obtaining the precious stone called carbuncle.  Pliny the Elder must be referring to the Tibesti  mountains. In modern times the tribe called the Tebu (Tibbu,or Toubou)  also used to hunt a primitive people called Rock Tibbouu. This may have also been the Ethiopian Troglodyte that Herodotus recorded the Garamantes hunting in four horse chariots.  In the region of  Phazania  resided the Nation of Phazanii (another contradiction on the scholars behalf since this is one of the Royal Seats of The Garamantes) , they were cities called Cydamus , Garama, the town of Tabudium, the nation of Niteris, town of Nigligemella, the town of Bubeium, the nation of Enipi, and the Black Mountains.  The empire of the Garamantes  was subsequently classified in a simple categorization called the one of the two Aethiopias.  One  Aethiopia comprising of Pharussi, Perorsi and  Gymnetes in the west,and in the east  the nations of the Augylae,  Trogolodytae, and the Garamantes. Pliny the Elder cites Homer in regarding the location of the Two Major Aethiopia nations. He also makes note of LibycoEgyptians and then the Leucaethipians. Pliny most likely uses this connotation Libyco Egyptian for the culture of Libyans who lived West of Ammon such as the Marimadaeans and Nasomanes who also emulated Egyptian style of clothing and  aspired to other aspects of the Egyptian  culture. The Leucaethiopians  may have also be a pejorative term for the white Berbers living the Aethiopian style of culture in the interior of Africa.  Ancient roman authors  were meticulous in classifying tribes on foreign  lands , for countless memorandum purposes of safety . One of these tenants was that Roman armies traversed these regions with gloomy  perilous dangers . It was a proponent to be cognizant of the  allied tribes, neutral standing tribes, hostile  but not aggressive tribes, and tribes that often engaged in ambuscades  against any foreign traveling army on  foreign soil.  Many wild untamed beast were captured for coliseum or gladiator games, along with stones and plants that were a rarity and inaccessible to the Mediterranean   World. Therefore classifying each tribe correctly was imperative for ensuring the  safety for travelers and campaigning events in the Deserts of the Sahara. (Pliny The Elder ''Natural History'' Book V Chapter 8:1)


                The Garamantes were an empire and very advance one at that. The Ancient Romans slandered their name calling them Barbarians when all the while knowing they were one of the most powerful confederations of tribes in the Sahara. Contrary to roman texts about this civilization, archeological has altered the perception of the level of technological sophistication of the Garamantes. Some inhabitants of the Garamantum  were skillful agriculturist livings in villages,these villages sparsely populated the landscape The Garamantian civilization were also skilled and equipped in technologies such as metallurgy, glass making,  salt refining, and production of precious stones. The  society had a written indigenous script called ‘’Tifnaq’’. Supplementary discoveries have been recently  such as textiles for  leather  according to  Mattingly. The most interesting technological attribute of the Garamantes were their  capability of harnessing water in the desert through the Foggaras, the foggaras was also utilized to irrigate farms where it was climatically feasible for agrarian work.  Foggaras were a  3,000 mile network of underground irrigation canals. The soil of the Fezzan consisted of black shining sand stone,  according to Pliny there was also an area called the Black Mountains either because it was scorched with fire or was blackened from the heating from the sun. This unbearable heat played a very pivotal role in giving the Garamantian Empire an upper hand, Romans were very cautious to invade the Garamantum country  due to the undying treacherous desert temperature. The Garamantes were very astute of this, thus villages and towns were located deep in the desert or in very remote areas that were impervious to raiding and vulnerability.  The Romans were very eager to capture the Garamantes since they often attacked the Romans shores and pillaged and plundered the roman provinces of Africa , Maurantenia, Tripolitania , and other Roman provinces in the interior.
 




              However they were percolating  fertile areas in the Garamantes domain, in the north the Wadi ash-Shati ,the Wadi az-Zaliaf, where the main town Adri is located. In the center the Wadi Irawan and Wadi-Al Ajal also known as Wadi-al-Hayat where the Great city Germa, or Garama(thought to be the capital city),and in the south east the Wadi  Tanezzuft where the towns Ghat( presently still frequented by the Tuaregs),Barkat, and Fewet are located . The South East the Wadi  Barjujm, towards Zuwayiah, Murzuq  and  Ghadduwah.

The city of Garama(Jarma) was one of the most important cities of Garamantian Kingdom, it contained temples, a marketplace , houses, and bath houses with some of these architectual works crafted  in natural stone.  Garama  was surrounded by a wall with a dug out ditch. The center of city had forts used to control roads to Lake Chad region, but was also used as defense for barbarous desert tribes roaming the barren desert  scouting for prey. The city was estimated to hold 10,000 people which was comparable to the city of  Pompeii. Ptolemy also speaks of a sister city called the Gir metropolis that may have been in and around the Garamantes domain.

                 Despite the  Garamantes living in adequate cities, many Garamantes endured as nomads against Roman towns. According to Lucan (Pharsalia 4.669),it  was said that Juba, the king of the  Numidians enlisted the assistance of the Garamantes against the foreign intruding Roman commanders , Julius Caesar and Curio. Juba’s army was victorious against Curio briefly , but it  was  only short lived when later on, he would ironically  be defeated by Julius Caesar. The Romans by then earned a new profound fear for the Garamantes. A general from the city of Gades in the Roman province of Hispania was sent on an expedition into the country of the Phazanii(modern day Fezzan)and Garamanticum. The war against the Garamantes took a great toil on the Roman  Army campaigning into  Fezzan.  According to Pliny the Elder, Lucius Cornelius  Balbus returned to Rome successful, strangely  he would be the first Non-Roman citizen to have a chariot Triumph festivity  in Rome and  be granted to construct a theater on the ‘’Field of Mars’’ on his behalf . Speculatively from a historical standpoint,Balbus was not entirely successful , he may have sacked  some of Garamantian cities  like that of ,Alele ,Cilliba, Cydamus (located within Sabarta)  and  the former capital Zincherca. Archaeology supports that the transfer of power from Zincherca was endowed to the later city   Garama(Garma or Jarma.) But this may be entirely hearsay, as it was known that the Roman merchants still were plagued by dangers of being robbed , as Pliny later writes , ''it has been impossible to keep open the roads leading to the country of the Garamantes’’. Thus  ''the Road Past The Head of Broken Stones''( iter praeter caput saxi) or sometimes called the  Black Narrows  leading toward  ''Agisymba''(Lake Chad region),these were always vulnerable to attacks by the Garamantian tribes. The Garamantes region was very mountainous and was sustained by many castles and forts built adjacent  to the pathways of travel.



             Another brief interlude account of a war with the Garamantes is recorded by Florus  in Epitome where he states  that Publius Sulpicius Quirinius campaigned against the Marmarides which had allied  themselves  with the Garamantes in 15CE. In the following years Tacfarinas, lead a war against Rome. In the time  Tacfarinas campaigned against the Romans in Libyan Provinces,  he prepared an escape plan to retreat into the country of Garamantum to either regroup with other tribes for retaliation or to dwell there as  sanctum of refuge . Later on the Garamantes in 69 CE attacked the city of Oea ,located  Leptis Magna. In 400CE, the Numidian rebel Gildo recruited the Garamantes in his war against the Romans so the conflicts were everlasting.


However the Garamantes were not always sworn enemies against the Romans, in the duration of different Roman periods they were  expedient trade relations on both parts.  Like many African kingdoms the Garamantes  traded slaves, salt, and wheat for   olive oil, wine,  oil lamps and Roman tableware. The Garamantes  also would procure the precious stone amazonite in the Tibesti Mountains as stated previously before by the author.


The decline of the Garamantes is disputable, but some postulate  that the water being supplied by foggaras was literally running out. It was possible they could of prolong their survival  but that would of required a supplement of slaves to reconstruct the networking system. To obtain more slaves ,they would of required more territory to conquer which was not plausible. It is said that the Garamantes adopted Christianity from the Byzantine empire and may have established a church at Zuila. However when Uqba ibn Nafi entered the region the church of the Garamantes had be dismantled and communication with the Byzantines ceased later on .






The Neighboring of the Garamantes in The Sahara

In the early references The  Gaetullians  were also neighbored by Aeithiopic  or black tribes who  were called the Autolale and the Lixitoe , the latter tribe  accompanied Hanno in his voyage around Africa.Going further into the interior of the province  Mauritania Tingita ,we have the river of  Salsus, proceeding  further in we come to the black Perorsi  who also inhabited the mount Atlas region(Pliny The Elder Book V Chap 1:2), at the back are the Pharusii, who were right next to the Gaetullian Darae.  Upon the coast again you find the black tribe of Daratatitae, and the river Bambotus. (Pliny The Elder Book V Chap 1). Other tribes were called the Maurusii or Maurii who had been brutally ravaged  by Romans and other tribes and reduced to a scarce number.Lucan (M.Annaeus Lucanus, Pharasalia 4.669) description of  the Moors who were formerly known as the Mauriis as Swarthy and the Dark Garamantes who helped campaigned against the Romans in the Jugarthine Wars.


The Pharusians and Nigretes (who live above these people Maurusians) near the western Aethiopians also use bows, like the Aethiopians(Nubians); and they also use scythe-bearing chariots The scythe –bearing chariots used by the Garamantes  were not exclusive to the territory of ‘’Fezzan’’(Southern Libya),  chariots were also used by other  Aethiopic tribes  across the treacherous Sahara desert known as ,they were called the Pharusians and Nigretes (Strabo Geographica Book XVII, Chapter 3, Verse 7).
One  can surmise that the Aethiopic peoples  of the Sahara did share this common chariot driving capability amongst one another. The Pharusians were even said to roam, and occupy  the vicinity of the city called ‘’Cirta’’,(Numidia)and would briefly occupy other  Roman provinces.(Strabo Geographica Book XVII,Chapter 3 verse ).Strabo stated the  Pharusians were mound builders or  retreated  built of  mud huts ,and to have even hunted snakes like other Troglodytes  or Ethiopic Troglodytes.  The Pharusians were distinctly different from the Maurusians of the Roman Province of Maurutania.




World as Known to the Ancients and Ptolemys World







Ethnography of The Garamantes.


According to Herodotus and many other Greco-Roman writers The Garamantes used scythe bearing chariots just as the Aethiopian Pharusii and Aethiopian Nigritae other charioteers of the western Sahara.Ghraham Connah who wrote a book for the Cambridge press also states that these chariots can be found all along the Niger River bend to Libya and Morrocco.It is known that chariots have been used in the Sahara since 3700BP. According to many  anthropologist and archeaologist the Equidians and Bovidians used chariots and were the progenitors of the chariot traveling across the Sahara.



The Garamantian kingdom also had extensive trade relations with the kingdom of  Meroe , the Goddess Tanit has been shown on temple walls of Meroe and may have been transmitted from relations with Garamantes.The Garamantes were a ten days journey from the Nubian Aethiopians and a 15 days journey from Ammon. The Garamantes regularly procured sheep from the Nubian Aethiopians(Strabo Geographica Book XVII verse 19)

According to  Leo Africanus, the  legacy of Garamntes was transferred  during the Islamic Era of the Fifth division of  Berber tribes. The Gumeri(Garamantes) and Bardaei or Bardoa , which translates as  the Teda of the Bardai oasis otherwise known as Teda of the Tebu or Toubou tribes) were the Garamantes direct descendants.



Even today the people of Fezzan are mainly inhabited by 80,000 inhabitants , mainly comprising of Tuareg and Teda (Tebu) tribes. The people of the area are believed to be the Berauna who are of Western Sudanese or Negro origin. Duveyrier assigns the Garamantes to the be of an Sudanic origin also.The Teda of the Tebu tribe also inhabit the Tibesti mountains a once uncontested territory of the Garamantes.






Many anthropologist and archaeologist believe the Tebu are possibly to be  one of the candidates for  being descendants of the Garamantes. But the undisputed torch carriers of the Garamantes legacy  is unquestionably the Tuareg.  The Tuareg  possess the ancient script of Tifnaq the same writing system of the  Garamantes that is found as inscriptions Garamantian tombs and business bookkeeping records. Fate would declare that the Tuareg still roam the land the Garamantes once controlled. Tuaregs  arguably  have been  the most resistant tribe of the Sahara  keeping the culture of the past  intact. Most of the Berber languages have disintegrated while the Tuaregs still retain their on called Tamajeq or Tamasheq  fluently . Contrary to popular belief Tuareg is not what they actually call themselves. The self proclaimed name of the Tuaregs is Kel Tamasheq which means speakers of Tamasheq and People Of The Veil. The Tuareg are probably one of the most well enigmatic Berber tribes existing. The Modern name Amazigh is another obscure name that seems to be distorted through out its inception , understanding that M Z GH does not mean the Free people  in any  term or  connotation of the Berber language. The Term Amazigh may be pseudonym for the Libyan  king Igmazen  or even the  Mazices that some how became a synonymous with Berber name. The name Tuareg may come from the Arabic name Tarawik which means God’s Forsaken. The Tuareg were very hostile to the Zenata muslim tribes also

The Kel Tamashaq have even made an impact on the Hausa Nigerians as many loanwords have been borrowed from the Tuareg language into the Hausa language.( Series: Berber Studies Volume 12).Hausa is spoken by 35 million in Northern Nigeria, which is odd ,since their territory (Northern Nigeria) is nowhere near the Tuareg country. But the  Hasua’s former kinsmen, the Kanuri  people of Lake Chad both cohabited the regions of Northern Chad and Niger with the Tuareg, this could have been the focal point of linguistic exchange between intermediary allied tribes or former territories of both tribes that over stretched their bounds disintegrating  long ago being forgotten in a long distant time.  Hausa language is a Afro-Asiatic language like the language of the Tuareg.The speakers of Tamasheq (or Tuareg occupy) the regions of Algeria,Libya,Niger and Burkina Faso.

When a male becomes full grown man in the Tuareg society it is required that he must wear a veil The Tuareg society is still made of a caste system but this is the case with many African tribes of the Sahara and Sahel. And the titles of nobility are inherited from generation to generation as with the title of being a slave.The Tuareg or Tamasheq name for slave is eklan and the descendants of those slaves are called upon onto this day. The Tuareg still possess the same  genealogy  and reserve the same customs as their Garamantian forefather did in the past. One Garamantian name still used among the Tuareg name today is ‘’Konja’’.

Genetics has also concluded that little intermingling to entail miscegenation is not nearly visible in the Tuareg genetic data. According to Cavalli-Sfrorza the Tuareg show the greatest genetic affinities with the Beja tribe in the Eastern Sudan and Eritrea. In  ancient times the Beja (Bedja) were called the Blemmyes ,another Bedouin tribe who roamed the desert as an outlaw band of plaguing the Nubians, and were often called Saracens long before the name was to be given  to the Muslims  or Arabs by scholars  during the Medieval Era. Some  Beja are still known to be nomadic.  The Blemmyae or Beja may be the forefathers of the Tuareg henceforth the Garamantes. Archaeological evidence may support this as the Garamantes culture is believe to originate in the oases of the Eastern Sahara.



New evidence points to the Garamantes culture dominated the Fezzan since 3000 BP to 700 AD.
From a society to civilization the Garamantes faced climatic disaster and local improvisation, being the proponents for the rise of this great civilization according to Mattingly.  The Sahara the Garamantes roamed in the 3000 was lush fertile area but as desiccation  took its toil it might have caused them to be constricted to a harsh environment as they migrated  for better fertile  pastures nonetheless taking the necessary prerequisites to enhance their social being. Also new evidence of the black mummy of Uan Muhuggiag and Negroid people of Uan Tamauat in Algeria may give a few indicators on how this indigenous civilization of Libya made arose  .




Ptolemy’s Geography Book IV

These two rivers unite in 42 The Thala mountain range, the middle part of which is located in 38,10 and the Garamantica defile 50 ,10 the Arulates mountains 47 30, 1 30.
There are two great rivers in the interior; one of these is the Gir uniting as it were, the Garamantica defile and the Usargala mountains. There is a turning of the river in 42, 16
Into the Gir a river empties flowing from the Chelonitides marshes, the middle of which is in 49, 20 Moreover joining the Gir, ceasing as the say, but running under ground, is another, the western terminus of which is in 46,16 the eastern terminus  of which forms the Nuba lake  the position of which is 50,15
The other large river is the the Niger flowing from the Mandrus  mountains and the Thala mountains which form the Nigritis lake which is in 15,18 from the north two rivers flow into the same from the Sagapola and the Usargala mountains, a deflection toward the east forms the Libyan lake the location of which is in 35,    16 30 and toward the south moreover there is a turn toward the Darbus river but in two locations 21  17 and 21 ,13 30
Ptolemy Gaetulia is located below Mauritania,the Desert of Libya below Africa and Cyreniaca, The great races which inhabit Libya are the Garamantes extending from the sources of Bagradas river to the Nubas lake, and the race of the Melanogaetuli, who occupy the land which is between the Sagapola mountains and the Usargala mountains, and the AETHOPIAN race of Gireiwho dwall toward the Gir, and the AETHOPIAN race of the Nigritae who are north of the Niger river,and the Daradi who dwell along the river of the name (Daradas) where it empties into the sea, and the Perorsi who are more to eastward and more remote from the sea as far as the mountains which are called the Theon Ochema, and the land of the AETHIOPIAN ODREANGIDIAN located between the Caphas and ''Thala Mountains'', and the Mamacos who are below the Thala mountainsm and the Nubae dwelling on the Western Side of the Garamantica defile, and the Derbiccae who are towards the west from the Arancas mountains.
These are the minor races" the Sirangae, the Mausoli, and the Autolalae occupying the region which is in on the sea below Gaetulia extending as far as the Mandrus mountains,Next to the same mountains are the Babi, the Malcoae and the Mandori extending as far as the Daradi,next to these are the Sophucaei , and blow the Rysadius mountains are the Leucaethiopes,between whom and Perorsi stretches the Campus Rufus: then from the Sagapola mountains toward the north the Pharusi,from the Usargala mountains toward the north are the Natembes, and along the Girgiri mountains are the Lynxamintae,  also the Zamazi, the Aroccae, the Getiani extending as far as the Nigritas AETHIOPES, below the Usargala mountains are the Suburpores, and below the Girgiri mountains toward the Garamantes are the Maccoi,the Dauchitae, and the Caletae, and the Caletae extending as far as the Nuba lake , and from the Daradi toward the east are the Machurebi, and next to rge Spochucaeis are the Solenti, from these toward the east are the Anaticoli or Pharuausi, the Churitae and the Stachirae extending as far as the Caphas mountains,between whom and Theon Ochema mountains are the Orphes,below these are the Tarueliae, the Climatitae, also the ''Africerones'' a great race, and back from Odrangides Aethiopes, but toward the south Achaemae, and south of the  Mimcaes are the Gongalae, next to these are the Nanosbes then the Nabathrae extending as far as the Arualtes mountains, and between the Libyan lake and the Thala Mountains are the Aliltambi and the Maurali"between these and Nuba lake the Harmiae, the Thalae, the Dolopes, also the Astacuri up to the Garamantica defile, and the Aroccae to the north  from the Aranca mountains, the Asaracae to the east,between the Derbiecenses and the Arualtes mountains are the Dermones, and the below the Africerones almost to south wind are the Aganginae Aethiopes,to the east of these below the same Arualten mountains,up to rhe Arancas mountains are the Xylicces Aethiopes, and next to these Achalicces Aethiopes.

Would anyone like to share their knowledge of the Garamantes, and what effect they took on Rome.




Edited by AksumVanguard - 25 Apr 2014 at 07:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2010 at 16:17
Please credit the original authors of these pieces otherwise its reproduction here constitutes plagiarism through cut-and-paste. Whenever those symbols associated with quote marks surface in a posted text it is a tell-tale marker. 

Edited by drgonzaga - 12 Feb 2010 at 16:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2010 at 16:19
True. Aksum we'll give you 24 hours to cite the proper references otherwise it shall be removed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2010 at 21:43

This is not a reproduction of any author, I do not plagerise any one and this article is by me just as with teh Soninke and Sao civilization, if you can find the website or prove that I cut and pasted this from somewhere then the burden of proof should be your task. Although I have cited many classical  scholars texts very detailed, I have not plagerised.

If you look back at my old post of the Sao civilization Drgonzaga,  you would recall you complained about the same thing , this time I have adequately reanalyzed this evaluation of the Garamantes so I obligingly contributed to this website. If you are implying what I already have an notion of then lay it on the line, be more frank otherwise, you have no proof I cut pasted this. Now if you want the links or authors I have cited then I could go and do that. The reason it shows up like that is because I typed this on Microsoft Word 2010. Besides the words in blue lead you to the website where I quoted it from.
 
As you can see the the Ptolemy Article as well as other ancient Roman authors like Lucan have been cited.That is why I have Ptolemy Geography Book 4
 
Seko some but not all websites have the authors,archaeologist and anthroplogist names that devised the analytical data constructed to bring forth this information in this thread. But if it is still a issue please let it be known.
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 2010 at 22:18
Hello Aksum, if what you say is true I would have no reason to doubt you. I would settle for links to the websites.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 00:21
Originally posted by Seko Seko wrote:

Hello Aksum, if what you say is true I would have no reason to doubt you. I would settle for links to the websites.
 
Thank you,Seko your judgement is much obliged.Ask any questions if you like. Rest assured that the data that was mustered up in this thread comes from very good sources such as Leo Africanus, Lucan, and Ammianus Marcellinus and other great excavators also such as Mattingly .Since the  Garamantes civillization has not been properly excavated it is no suprise that some onlookers would contest to some conclusions in this post for reasons their own  menial information about this kingdom is not in full view to them or the rest of the public. How ever this information is a rarity it is present, and if any one should find fallcies in my post then pertaining to this lost empire please object with  a rational thesis.Below there is map of the Garamante kingdom
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Heres a comparison of the map above to the modern day Tuareg territory and population dispersion. 
http://kcm.co.kr/bethany/p_maps3/1936.gif 
 
 
 


Edited by AksumVanguard - 13 Feb 2010 at 00:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 01:35
Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

This is not a reproduction of any author, I do not plagerise any one and this article is by me just as with teh Soninke and Sao civilization, if you can find the website or prove that I cut and pasted this from somewhere then the burden of proof should be your task. Although I have cited many classical  scholars texts very detailed, I have not plagerised.

If you look back at my old post of the Sao civilization Drgonzaga,  you would recall you complained about the same thing , this time I have adequately reanalyzed this evaluation of the Garamantes so I obligingly contributed to this website. If you are implying what I already have an notion of then lay it on the line, be more frank otherwise, you have no proof I cut pasted this. Now if you want the links or authors I have cited then I could go and do that. The reason it shows up like that is because I typed this on Microsoft Word 2010. Besides the words in blue lead you to the website where I quoted it from.
 
As you can see the the Ptolemy Article as well as other ancient Roman authors like Lucan have been cited.That is why I have Ptolemy Geography Book 4
 
Seko some but not all websites have the authors,archaeologist and anthroplogist names that devised the analytical data constructed to bring forth this information in this thread. But if it is still a issue please let it be known.
 
Funny, I have Office 2010 Beta and have had for some months now, and the only time the apostrophes cause that jumble (and have done so since the last Service Pack for Office 2007) occurs in the cut-and-paste mode.
 
To wit:
“We have solid evidence now to identify the Garamantes as a state and a civilisation,” Mattingly elaborated. “Past researchers have been cautious about making this evaluation partly because of negative press by Greco-Roman writers who depicted the Garamantes as a troublesome tribe of armed brigands...
 
 
But that is neither here nor there because even though you vaguely reference Mattingly, you nowhere categorically cite his published work. And like sites such as that cited below construct your own fancies--
 
 
You had but needed to review the University of Leicester press office to understand what is Mattingly's from that of the excessive reproduction of Graeco-Roman titles. if you desire to promote a discussion of the Saharan plateau and its early inhabitants there was hardly any need to prepare the "packaging" you did and if you had not read Mattingly then it was simple enough to cite those who had (in other words the actual sources behind your argument). Do you really comprehend what is meant by Maurusian Culture?
 
Here's another clue:
 
The Greek historian Herodotus, writing in the 5th century bc, described the Garamantes people of the Fezzan region, who were sedentary farmers and used horse-drawn chariots in warfare. His account has been verified in the 20th century by ancient cave art, discovered in the Jabal Akakus (jabal means “mountains”) of the western Fezzan region and the Jabal al-Uwaynat near the Egyptian border.
 
With a hat tip to the History Channel's little info-snap on Lybia.


Edited by drgonzaga - 13 Feb 2010 at 02:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 08:38
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Funny, I have Office 2010 Beta and have had for some months now, and the only time the apostrophes cause that jumble (and have done so since the last Service Pack for Office 2007) occurs in the cut-and-paste mode.



So? If you are familiar with typing on Microsoft word you would know that if you usually ''cut & paste'' there would be an unusual halo of highlighting of the paragraphs and sentences that would even aggregate strange fonts of hearts,stars,punctuation and numbers to the draft. The viewers vision reading through the paragraph would be distorted.
 
Originally posted by drgonzga drgonzga wrote:


To wit:
“We have solid evidence now to identify the Garamantes as a state and a civilisation,” Mattingly elaborated. “Past researchers have been cautious about making this evaluation partly because of negative press by Greco-Roman writers who depicted the Garamantes as a troublesome tribe of armed brigands...



Very good, this is something I agree on.


Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:



Clap  LOL

Well what is the world coming to? Drgonzaga giving references from ESSAYS,no say it so.LOL This is a a very scholastic fragile attempt that bears no merit in an argument against this threads posted abovre.I don't believe your resources became became that desperate in quoting something very non withstanding. As you have become infatuated with languishing in pseudo history analysis.


Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


But that is neither here nor there because even though you vaguely reference Mattingly, you nowhere categorically cite his published work. And like sites such as that cited below construct your own fancies--


I'll be sure to post it. Hope it would change your mind

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


 



HahLOLLOL Another source from a flimsy forum, are you serious ? And a website that bases its historical analysis on races come on. Why attempt to debunk my thread when you make an argument from dubious forum websites


Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


You had but needed to review the University of Leicester press office to understand what is Mattingly's from that of the excessive reproduction of Graeco-Roman titles. if you desire to promote a discussion of the Saharan plateau and its early inhabitants there was hardly any need to prepare the "packaging" you did and if you had not read Mattingly then it was simple enough to cite those who had (in other words the actual sources behind your argument). Do you really comprehend what is meant by Maurusian Culture?

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


 
The Greek historian Herodotus, writing in the 5th century bc, described the Garamantes people of the Fezzan region, who were sedentary farmers and used horse-drawn chariots in warfare. His account has been verified in the 20th century by ancient cave art, discovered in the Jabal Akakus (jabal means “mountains”) of the western Fezzan region and the Jabal al-Uwaynat near the Egyptian border.
 
With a hat tip to the History Channel's little info-snap on Lybia.


A clue to what, and what are you getting at?


Edited by AksumVanguard - 13 Feb 2010 at 08:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 08:46

Quote

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ammianus_29_book29.htm#C5regions.



14. In the mean time Mascizel, having recruited his forces by auxiliaries which he had procured from the tribes on the borders, ventured on a pitched battle with our army, in which his men were routed, and a great portion of them slain,while he himself was with difficulty saved from death by the speed of his horse.

25.   Leaving Sugabarri, he came to a town called Gallonatis, surrounded by a strong wall, and a secure place of refuge for the Moors, which, as such, he destroyed with his battering-rams. And having slain all the inhabitants, and levelled the walls, he advanced along the foot of Mount Ancorarius to the fortress of Tingetanum, where the Mazices were all collected in one solid body. He at once attacked them, and they encountered him with arrows and missiles of all kinds as thick as hail.

37.  Theodosius     .    .    .    showing mercy to none of them, having refreshed his soldiers by a supply of better food, and gratified them by a distribution of pay, defeated the Capracienses and Abanni, who were the next tribes to them, in some unimportant skirmishes, and then advanced with great speed to the town of     .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    and having received certain intelligence that the barbarians had already occupied the hills, and were spread over the precipitous and broken ground to a great height,so that they were quite inaccessible to any but natives who were intimately acquainted with the whole country, he retired, giving the enemy an opportunity by a truce, short as it was,to receive an important reinforcement from the Ethiopians in the neighbourhood.


Reference according to Procopius of North African Libyans,Vandals and Moors


http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16765/16765-h/16765-h.htm



Procipius Describes  The Vandals Ethnicity

 

The Book of Wars III

[2-8]



For they all have white bodies and fair hair, and are tall and handsome to look upon, and they use the same laws and practise a common religion. For they are all of the Arian faith, and have one language called Gothic; and, as it seems to me, they all came originally from one tribe, and were distinguished later by the names of those who led each group.




Procipius History of Wars Book IV
Chapter
XIII

For since the time when the Moors wrested Aurasium from the Vandals,[44] not a single enemy had until now ever come there or so much as caused the barbarians to be afraid that they would come,



Comparison between the lifestyles of Vandals and Libyans contrasted against the Moors



Chapter

VI


The Vandals lifestyle


For the Vandals, since the time when they gained possession of Libya, used to indulge in baths, all of them, every day, and enjoyed a table abounding in all things, the sweetest and best that the earth and sea produce. And they wore gold very generally, and clothed themselves in the Medic garments, which now they call "seric,"[18] and passed their time, thus dressed, in theatres and hippodromes and in other pleasureable pursuits, and above all else in hunting. And they had dancers and mimes and all other things to hear and see which are of a musical nature or otherwise merit attention among men. And the most of them dwelt in parks, which were well supplied with water and trees; and they had great numbers of banquets, and all manner of sexual pleasures were in great vogue among them.

 

The Moors Lifestyle

But the Moors live in stuffy huts[19] both in winter and in summer and at every other time, never removing from them either because of snow or the heat of the sun or any other discomfort whatever [10-20] due to nature. And they sleep on the ground, the prosperous among them, if it should so happen, spreading a fleece under themselves. Moreover, it is not customary among them to change their clothing with the seasons, but they wear a thick cloak and a rough shirt at all times. And they have neither bread nor wine nor any other good thing, but they take grain, either wheat or barley, and, without boiling it or grinding it to flour or barley-meal, they eat it in a manner not a whit different from that of animals.

 



The Moors Seemed To Throw Spears Like Other Primitive Tribes OF Africa

XI

[24-35]

And indeed of all men the Moorish nation seems to be the most poorly equipped for war's struggle. For the most of them have no armour at all, and those who have shields to hold before themselves have only small ones which are not well made and are not able to turn aside what strikes against them. And after they have thrown those two small spears, if they do not accomplish anything, they turn of their own accord to flight.

 

The difference of the Libyans and Moors

X

 [24-2]

But as time went on Carthage became a powerful and populous city. And a battle took place between them and their neighbours, who, as has been said, had come from Palestine before them and are called Moors at the present time, and the Carthaginians defeated them and compelled them to live a very great distance away from Carthage.


Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:


You had but needed to review the University of Leicester press office to understand what is Mattingly's from that of the excessive reproduction of Graeco-Roman titles. if you desire to promote a discussion of the Saharan plateau and its early inhabitants there was hardly any need to prepare the "packaging" you did and if you had not read Mattingly then it was simple enough to cite those who had (in other words the actual sources behind your argument). Do you really comprehend what is meant by Maurusian Culture?

 

The Maurusians have been distorted throughout Roman history . But if you carefully look at what I posted in the thread I gave no refrences to the Maurusians showing cultural links to the Garamantes another dive into the vodka hmm.I said the Phaursians,Perorsi, Dardians, and Nigritae. I already stated the cultural links of the rock art found all throughout the Sahara, including the riding of horses, in which Roman authors also confirm.

What is confusing is that during the Roman times the Maurris came under very immense attacks

Moreover the Maurusian identity has been distorted very much and  Maurusians usually refered to the people of the colony of Maurutania or Maurri. Thereafter when the Vandals arrive in North Africa and have incurssions with both Libyans and Moors.The term Moor is applied to the black skinned inhabitans of the Sahara, and the people who live in the Roman province of Maurri or Maurintania are then called Libyans,  in the Vandelic the show up distinctly different from the Libyans. It gets very confusing but lets just say the Libyans Light skin Berbers were not the same as the Moors who were mentioned by Procipius in his book the history of Wars III and IV  and Ammaniaus Marcelinus as to be akin to the primitive Bantus.Thus and therefore the word Moor in Middle Ages time and Moor in ancient roman times was used in very different contexts.


In all conclusion I think both the Islamic Authors  have distorted the identity of the ancient fair skin Libyans of Maurii who later became Morrocans with the Moors inhabiting the interior of the Maurii. The name Moor has been so excessively pushed around, and so this why I think that many pseudo authors of Black history especially urban black americans have mistaken the Moors of Spain to be black. Well in most likely actuallity the Moors of SPain twere in fact the fair skin Libyans the Romans speak of. But thats a whole another story.

The whole point drgonzaga  that many tribes in the Sahara shared cultural linkages, and affinites just as mentioned above the religious practices of Arianism shared by the Goths. So the Sahara of past was surely very different today,inhabitants who had worshipped the famous goddess neith or Tannit as I have stated reached all the way to Nubia.


 
File:RomanEmpire 117.svg


Edited by AksumVanguard - 13 Feb 2010 at 09:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 17:30
Pose as you will, it makes no matter to me (although you clearly do not understand what is meant either by assignation or plagiarization, much less the actual reason for objecting to the clumsily worded posts that are consuming far more "band" than necessary). As before, the problem with your posts again escapes you entirely.
 
e.g.
    "Since the  Garamantes civillization(sic) has not been properly excavated..."
 
Gee, obviously that might have been news in 1998 but not in 2010, and if you claim it true for today then why refer to  Mattingly at all whose been at it since 1999, unless you wish to accuse him of "improper" excavations!
 
By the way, you still do not understand what the term Maurusian Culture embraces nor the distinctions required for usage of terms such as civilization rather than culture. Nor comprehend the classifications within archaeology and anthropology that require recognition of terminology. Had you, then you would have understood the implications of the Ibero-Maurusian within the context of the Capsian and the fact that no one confuses such with anything remotely related to Moors and that periodization itself denies all of your posturings over the site of Garama, whose archaeology is totally unrelated to the Neolithic and even more so to the Paleolithic.
 
However, I do worry over the integrity of AE as a good source of direction and analysis for the budding scholar, thus please be aware that whenever your posturings intrude without observance of proper form and actual utility in terms of further individual inquiry, then immediate objections will be entered.
 
By the way, the irony behind the citing of Victor Borg's website totally escaped you did it not?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2010 at 22:55
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Pose as you will, it makes no matter to me (although you clearly do not understand what is meant either by assignation or plagiarization, much less the actual reason for objecting to the clumsily worded posts that are consuming far more "band" than necessary). As before, the problem with your posts again escapes you entirely.


That is all your illogical statements bring, blandness and boredom. This is just another example of a bay calling for attention, because he has no proof or any substance to share. Is that the best you can do.
 


Quote
e.g.
    "Since the  Garamantes civillization(sic) has not been properly excavated..."
 
Gee, obviously that might have been news in 1998 but not in 2010, and if you claim it true for today then why refer to  Mattingly at all whose been at it since 1999, unless you wish to accuse him of "improper" excavations!



Wrong! Mattingly has been involved in the excavations in Fezzan Libya since 1984, if you choose to make your instant just add water investigations make sure you have the facts straight. Making impotent suggestions to further boost your own agenda is nothing but decietful.

Heres the link

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:8yaqR7DBB4oJ:https://lra.le.ac.uk/bitstream/2381/4671/1/Ancient%2520Agriculture%2520in%2520Libya.PDF+mattingly+excavations+in+libya+1973&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us



Anyway whats your point in this discussion of when excavations were carried out, before the 18th century in often in the past there have been many archaeologist who have said that the Garamantes were barbarians, without any knowledge of civilization.

Quote
By the way, you still do not understand what the term Maurusian Culture embraces nor the distinctions required for usage of terms such as civilization rather than culture.


I never Said Maurasian culture was a civilization. I said the Pharussi and Perorsi tribes had a culture that was very similar to the Garamantes civilization culture. And there is a big difference in having the same culture but not the same level of society structure and civilization just as Macedonians and Thessalians were of part Aryan culture but had different levels of civilizations.


Quote
 Nor comprehend the classifications within archaeology and anthropology that require recognition of terminology. Had you, then you would have understood the implications of the Ibero-Maurusian within the context of the Capsian and the fact that no one confuses such with anything remotely related to Moors


Of course that is what I said in my post above, the word Maurri and Moor have been misapplied names given to many peoples.

Quote
and that periodization itself denies all of your posturings over the site of Garama, whose archaeology is totally unrelated to the Neolithic and even more so to the Paleolithic.


Bearing false witness is a hobby of yours isn't! There were links my post that told you about the Paleolithic and Neolithic culture of the Garamantes that led to their rise of civilization. So what do you mean its totally unrelated, it does hold some relevance because it is a precursor in their rise of societal structure.
 


Quote
However, I do worry over the integrity of AE as a good source of direction and analysis for the budding scholar, thus please be aware that whenever your posturings intrude without observance of proper form and actual utility in terms of further individual inquiry, then immediate objections will be entered.


The integrity of AE may indeed be in danger especially when people as yourself choose to use pseudo sites such as raceandhistory.com which is ridiculous.
 

Quote
By the way, the irony behind the citing of Victor Borg's website totally escaped you did it not?


It looks to me like the victorblog post plagerized one of the sites I used.

Victorblog Original source.






Edited by AksumVanguard - 14 Feb 2010 at 02:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 00:19
You obviously still don't get it do you? In 1984, Mattingly was nowhere in the Fezzan but instead completing his doctorate at the University of Manchester while studying Roman Lybia and its olive oil production under the tutelage of Professor Barri Jones at the University of Manchester! Others had long preceeded him into the archaeology of the Fezzan and his intensive work there dates from 1999 consequent to a long term grant.
 
You have already undertaken some editing (albeit rather poorly) and now are into your usual polemical mood--pitting photographers against each other, how quaint--while still not understanding what constitutes plagiarism. We will not even go into your convenient "strawman" that posits confusion between Mauri and Moor among scholars so that you can elaborate on how everyone was wrong about the Sahara until you decided to "enlighten" us. Perhaps you should pick up a copy of Farming the Desert. v.1 "Synthesis" (gen. ed. D. Barker), and v.2 "Gazeteer and Pottery" (gen. ed. D.J. Mattingly). Paris/London: UNESCO. Society for Lybian Studies, 1996. It should cool your overactive imagination.
 
However, I do not hold out much hope after encountering this nonsense in your subsequent diatribe:
 
"...just as Macedonians and Thessalians were of part Aryan culture but had different levels of civilizations."
 
PS: By the way, if you do not handle the ancient authors in their original languages you have not got a clue as to the errors in translation. "Moor" is not a Latin term and if anyone is going to translate Maure/i as Moor then the confusion is theirs (we will not even go into Mauretaniae). And if we are to bring the Greeks into it...beware. The caveat has been in place since the middle of the 19th century:
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 14 Feb 2010 at 00:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 02:17
Drgonzaga I would really like to know what's your point and what are you trying to convey in this post.I never said Mattingly was the first to engage in the excavations of Fezzan , of course he based a lot of his work on Daniels, but he has been studying and excavating for a long time in Libya.

As for the Mauri and Moor terminology used by ancient Romans  being very confusing,that was the whole point, in some instances those terminologies have been diluted, diffused, and juxtapose in a lot of historical literature.

The analogy of the Greeks was mentioned to tell you that both the Thessalians and Macedonians had Greek culture and were more related to the Aryan culture than other Greeks in the Aegean. But the Macedonians were a little more sophisticated and voracious politically than the Thessalians.And that can be used with same analogy of the Melanogaetulians,Daridians, Garamantes and many other tribes in the Sahara. These tribes all retained the so called Amizgh culture like those as the Kabyles,Riffians,Saharawi, Tuareg, Tebu ,Zaghawa, and Duada. You must understand that they were peoples of the Sahara and in ancient times the region was little bit more fertile which could facilitate many people. Thats the whole point people such as the Etruscans ,Minoans,and Western Anatolia would all be in the  Mediterranean category. While all the tribes of the Sahara had Saharan culture and lifestyle.








Edited by AksumVanguard - 14 Feb 2010 at 02:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 04:40
The problem, Aksum, is your inability to understand that the terminology used not only in History but in Archaeology  and Ethnography have definitie meanings and direct associations within contemporary scholarship. When you bandy them indiscriminately--much as in this iteration of "Aryan Culture"--you do yourself a disservice and essentially discredit any valid point you may be trying to make. What is known as Thessalian (or Aeolian) is a descriptive applicable to the Neolithic period in Greece and by 1000 BC, the Thessalians were an original component of the Delphic Amphyctiony in other words an appenage of what is essentially Greek culture and not Aryan anything. Likewise, in Macedonia the Neolithic had its own parameters, which unfortunately, are now being clouded by contemporary political diatribes. Suffice it to say, that by the 6th century whatever trace of Illyrian or Thracian "culture" remained was overwhelmed by what some misidentify as Hellenic "culture"...as if contact between coastal and interior peoples was some sort of recent phenomenon in the Aegean.  Much the same may be said of the contemporary urge to apply the concept of Amazigh Culture within a historical setting and endowing it with a hoary past. Here is an on-line bibliography to spur you on in this enedavor:
 
 
However, such does not translate adequately to the variances in archaeological evidence with regard to well-established identifications within the connotation known as Ibero-Maurusian in the context of the Neolithic. No one has posited that the interior of the Maghrib was uninhabited in the Paleolithic, much less the Neolithic...hence the names Maurusian and Capsian cultures.
 
 
That the 6th century Mediterranean World knew of these inhabitants is hardly a surprise nor did the Carthaginians or their successors eschew contact with them under the premise of "savagery" or "barbarism" (given that even this term is a misinterpretation of the original Greek meaning). In fact, trade with the interior was a given as the archaeology of lower strata througout the Maghrib has revealed. Even the study of genetics has been brought into play:
 
 
 
So before you go into another overly-defensive rant understand thay you must respect context and the on-going research of others, who are not suffering from your ill-conceived perceptions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2010 at 21:21
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The problem, Aksum, is your inability to understand that the terminology used not only in History but in Archaeology  and Ethnography have definitie meanings and direct associations within contemporary scholarship. When you bandy them indiscriminately--much as in this iteration of "Aryan Culture"--you do yourself a disservice and essentially discredit any valid point you may be trying to make. What is known as Thessalian (or Aeolian) is a descriptive applicable to the Neolithic period in Greece and by 1000 BC, the Thessalians were an original component of the Delphic Amphyctiony in other words an appenage of what is essentially Greek culture and not Aryan anything. Likewise, in Macedonia the Neolithic had its own parameters, which unfortunately, are now being clouded by contemporary political diatribes. Suffice it to say, that by the 6th century whatever trace of Illyrian or Thracian "culture" remained was overwhelmed by what some misidentify as Hellenic "culture"...as if contact between coastal and interior peoples was some sort of recent phenomenon in the Aegean.  Much the same may be said of the contemporary urge to apply the concept of Amazigh Culture within a historical setting and endowing it with a hoary past. Here is an on-line bibliography to spur you on in this enedavor:
 
Of course the Thessalians were Greek , but it is known they have had more of direct Aryan  admixtue culturally into their society  and geneaological background than other Greeks. Aryan culture has been mirgating to Greece and other areas since the Neolithic to the Bronze Age. Not to mention we don't know were the Dorians are exactly from, but we do know that Phyrgians and Indo Iranian Kurgans traveled  into the Balkans and Daanans came from the Danube. By the way Thessaly was referred to by ancient historians and modern historians within the Hellinistic age
 and some even propose the same name in the Neolithic era. In the Hellinistic era the  people the Athenians, Spartans, and Ionians  were located from the Balkans to the Aegean but were all called Greeks. Nonetheless they are Greek but the Macedonians and Thesalians defintely had more traces of Aryan ancestry in their lineage.
 
Thus and therefore as people call the Sahara barren and dry there was traveling to and from  by tribes and contact with different cultures of the interior between different people who inhabited the desert.
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

However, such does not translate adequately to the variances in archaeological evidence with regard to well-established identifications within the connotation known as Ibero-Maurusian in the context of the Neolithic. No one has posited that the interior of the Maghrib was uninhabited in the Paleolithic, much less the Neolithic...hence the names Maurusian and Capsian cultures.
 
Never said anyone did. But you make it as though the people didn't have any culture there and different populations in the location did not have any contact with one another, despite the fact  many Saharan tribes were nomadic and traveled from one area to another  very often.
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
That the 6th century Mediterranean World knew of these inhabitants is hardly a surprise nor did the Carthaginians or their successors eschew contact with them under the premise of "savagery" or "barbarism" (given that even this term is a misinterpretation of the original Greek meaning). In fact, trade with the interior was a given as the archaeology of lower strata throughout the Maghrib has revealed. Even the study of genetics has been brought into play:
 
 
 
Lets understand one doesn't need to have a sub -saharan haplogroup to be blakc. Remember the Tuaregs are what we would call black and look as though as they did in the ancient times, the Tuareg have the haplogroup of U6. The U6  haplogroup is found althroughout East Africa from Kenya, Ethiopia, SUdan and Egypt making its way across North Africa. And in the article it states that the U6 is found in the archeological skeletons.
 
Mind you that the article that speaks specifically about Tafaralt is just one region in Morrocco and doesn't cover the vast range of ancient human Paleolithic and Neolithic fossils lying within the North African soil.  Must I add the most common berebr sub-claude M-81from the e3b became very prominet in North Africa 5000 Years ago. The reference you gave of Tarflout is  12,000 years and is totally constricted to one location of Morrocco more less the Sahara.
 
 
Taking into the account that the dessication of the Sahelian and fertile regions of the Sahara  in many areas that have become fervently humid and barren scientist,researchers,and archaeologist haven't ventured into the interior of the Sahara to extensively carry out investigations. Besides when the ancient authors speak of the Libyans of the northern coast tip of North Africa specifically Maurusia,that was inhabited by people who look different from people of the Lixitoe and Pharussi, then one would agree that the particular people of Northern Tip of the North Africca does not correlate to the ethnic people  of the interior of north Africa.  Has their been excavations that far in the Sahara.
 
 
Now here's the debacle, the according to your article the Mechtoid El Arbi, according to your article it may have originated in Nubia. And as I said the Tuareg and Tebu are black (carrying the U6 and E3b haplogorups) but not sub-saharan haplogroups at all, so you wouldn't necessarily expect sub-saharan haplogroups in the archeological records. So it is still inconclusive.
 


Edited by AksumVanguard - 15 Feb 2010 at 23:40
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What in the sam blazes is "direct Aryan admixtu[r]e culturally in their society". No respectable scholar employs such terminology and I would suggest you search for more appropriate descriptives. The same can be said of your misrepresentation of Haplogroup U6 and your linkage to the following phrasing:
 
Lets understand one doesn't need to have a sub -saharan haplogroup to be blakc. Remember the Tuaregs are what we would call black and look as though as they did in the ancient times, the Tuareg have the haplogroup of U6. The U6  haplogroup is found althroughout East Africa from Kenya, Ethiopia, SUdan and Egypt making its way across North Africa. And in the article it states that the U6 is found in the archeological skeletons.
 
Do you really understand genetic classifications? The highest diversity of the U6 haplogroup is found in the Iberian Peninsula! Haplogroup U (summarized as the Europa Clan) is certainly not an indicator of "blackness" or anything remotely related to Sub-Saharan "heritage or culture" nor can such be supposed for U6.
 
 
And, please stop of embarrassing yourself with these innuendos over "my" or "your" when addressing the evidence presented to challenge the superficiality on display with regard to these false suppositions over "Garamantes"...
 
Perhaps you would do well to review this site:
 
 
and join the fray there!
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Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

What in the sam blazes is "direct Aryan admixtu[r]e culturally in their society". No respectable scholar employs such terminology and I would suggest you search for more appropriate descriptives. The same can be said of your misrepresentation of Haplogroup U6 and your linkage to the following phrasing:

Whether politically correct or not , it is known that the origin of the Indo-European culture and linguistics originated in Iran as well as the Steppes of Central Asia. The ancients were not stupid,they as well as other scholars knew this and recent genetics has proved this. Although yes we cannot be certan of the actual definitive attributes of Indo Aryan culture since it is highly ambiguous it is without a doubt according to some archaeologist to be relative (partially but not wholly)to the Kurgans and Carians  migrating to Greece. As nonsensical as it sounds what is exactly Roman culture since it has converged with many cultures after the empires expansion into the Palestine,Syria,North AFrica, and other pleace as well as Helliinistic Greece assimilating many cultural customs and traditions of that region.

What I mean be Aryan admixture arriving in the Northern Parts of Greece would mean the genetic traces of Migration as well as the Cultural aspects a pottery,clothing, and linguistics.

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

Lets understand one doesn't need to have a sub -saharan haplogroup to be blakc. Remember the Tuaregs are what we would call black and look as though as they did in the ancient times, the Tuareg have the haplogroup of U6. The U6  haplogroup is found althroughout East Africa from Kenya, Ethiopia, SUdan and Egypt making its way across North Africa. And in the article it states that the U6 is found in the archeological skeletons.
 
Do you really understand genetic classifications? The highest diversity of the U6 haplogroup is found in the Iberian Peninsula! Haplogroup U (summarized as the Europa Clan) is certainly not an indicator of "blackness" or anything remotely related to Sub-Saharan "heritage or culture" nor can such be supposed for U6.



I would suggest you do some brushing up on genetics as your comprehension for the U6 distribution throughout Northwest Africa ,North East,Horn of Africa, Iberia and  Mediteraenean Islands is way too skewed. The reason why the highest diversity is found in the Iberia is all due to the recent migrations of the Berber Moors or Almoravids  occupying Spain. For goodness sakes, a haplogroups having the most diversity in a specific region is not due to it being the place of origin. Naturally the sub claude will diversify within a region as time moves on,this is true as an example of the people   living in small islands as the Canrary Islands in the Atlantic and Polynesians in the Pacific. I will of course post examples. And although  Iberia may have the highest diversity of the U6 haplogroup it  has not dispersed to other areas of Europe, since Iberia was a refuge for the Sammi and other Pre-Historic proto indo europeans in the Ice Age Era whcih was 10,000 years ago , naturally it would be known that the U6 haplogroup would have been logically dispersed to other parts of Europe but the U6 sub claude  has shows no signs in migrating from the Iberia to the rest of Europe. So the Iberia is not likely the place of origin.

Morever understand that the highest frequency of the U6 haplogroup is found is Senegeal,(I will post references to back it up.) although it doesn't have the diversity . How do you figure the U6 can not be sub Saharan  , the U6 is found all throughout Kenya,Ethiopia, Sudan, Senegal other places in sub-saharan .It is still being decided where its origination is from, and may even be Horn of Africa or Eastern Africa. Although some agree that is of Middle Eastern origin  there have been very few who have said it originated in Iberia since thre is discontinuities in evolution. You are lacking information on on the study of haplogroups or else you would understand that U6a has a high diversity in the Horn of Africa . Moreover the protoU6 may have deviated from the haplogroup N whose latest muttions are found in the Horn of Africa.

May I add that even Sudan is black and not sub-sahraran so yes you cannot place your own personal classifications as you deem.

Finally your faltered theory that says,  Iberian to  Maurusian culture expansion or as the  gibberishly word crafted scheme of the Ibero Maurusian,which is faulty since for one, since  you said once not long ago that I cannot make continuity of cultures from period to period despite that fact you have already interpolated the early agricluture system and material culture of Fezzan  cannot correspond to  the ascension of  Garamantes civilization. Now who would be the master of ''polemics''? I would say your semantics'' are very distinguishable from being esoteric prejudice. Correlating the Prehistoric 12,000 years ago period of Ibero-Maurusians to the Roman Maurusian what a gesture of laughter. I guess its double standards.

Anyhow to put the nail in the coffin of the origin if Mechtoid Al Arbi man,I will give the same link you gave to substantiate the most likely place of origin in Africa.



http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://pagesperso-orange.fr/bsecher/Articles/P3-%20Kefi%20et%20al%20,%20Anthropologie%202005.pdf&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=3&ct=result&prev=/search?q=DIVERSIT%C3%89+MITOCHONDRIALE+taforalt&hl=en
   


What must be discerned that yes although the craniofacials and other skeletal measurements share  some affinities to the Iberia, there also  well as the Cranio facial features and skeletal measurements that are shown to have come from Nubia as well. Moreover the  culture of the Mechta Man in Nubia is most similar to that of the Mechta Al Arbi in Morrocco.

Let it be known that cranio and skeletal meaurements are not definitive as they are many people across the world that share the same phenotypical similarities but are not genetically the same or culturally related. but do share the same latitude. Take for example Ainu of Japan who had Nordic feature according to some European ethnographers, the Australoids of the Pacific showing some similarities to Cameroon Bantus, and Negritos of India. We could also speak of the Watsui who share some similarities to the Horn of Africans but are not related and are totally related to their Hutu counterparts. Then there is the Fulani who were thought to have descended from the  Bovidians or Afro -Asiatic Africans because of Tall lean features  but are Niger-Congo origin, as well as many others who have the so called Mongoloid or Caucasoid features which I haven't really understood. One cannot rule out that climate takes an affect of the population therefore populations phenotype structures, will adapt to a climate no matter of what their genetics .

Sorry Drgonzaga.But your Ibero -Maurusian theory is out the window.

Quote

 Various sources are cited to explain the appearance of the Man of Mechta el Arbi, author of Ibero-Maurusian industry, in the Maghreb. It could is coming to Europe via Spain, although no milestone has found between souther France and  Starit of Gibraltar (Camps 1989).. It could also be from Palestine (Middle East).

Other author suggest an origin of the man of Mechta El Arbi in Nubia. Indeed , many similiraties were noted between the Nubians of the late Pleistocene and men of Mechta El Arbi. Industry mircolithic Nubian Qadan(15,000 -11,000 BP) is similar to the Ibero-Maurusian industry of Maghreb. We can observe the surrounding burial practices, including for the site of Jebel  Sahaba in Lower Nubia (Wendorf 1968). Moreover ,many skeletons Ibero-Maurusians such as Dr es Soltan and Taforalt Morrocco or Ali Bacha and Afaloy in Algeria all have similarities with people from 12,000 years of Wadi Halfa and Jebal Sahaba Nubia(Wendorf 1968) Similarities  are also observed with individuals Nazlet Khater and those of Wadi Kubbaniya in Egypt,dating from 25,000 BP.(Wendorf 1968.)

                            

 
And, please stop of embarrassing yourself with these innuendos over "my" or "your" when addressing the evidence presented to challenge the superficiality on display with regard to these false suppositions over "Garamantes"...

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:





As you have once again posted a link that backs up my arguments and  subconcously gives your own stamp of  approval to let me explain the matters pertaining to the complications of genetics and human migration in which  you failingly  have undertaken to comprehend. I will be the better analyzer and summarize it in the best words possible  despite those who are unwillingly to do so. Maybe they need more coffee.


BEING RESTRICTED TO A SMALL AREA DOESN'T NECESSARILY CAUSE LOW DIVERSITY IN HAPLOGROUPS

On the contrary, the presence in the Canary Islands and Iberia of representatives of all, or nearly all, U6 subclades, some of them not detected nowadays in the Continent, strongly point to the existence of several migratory waves from Africa, possibly at different times, which have increased their variability. This explanation is reinforced when the number of segregating sites (S) are taken into account. This value is larger in West Africa (5.10 ± 1.5) than in the Canaries (2.60 ± 1.0) and the Iberian Peninsula (3.90 ± 1.4), but East Africa presents a lower value (3.2 ± 1.4).

However, the younger U6a1 branch contradicts this general trend. For this subclade, East and West Africa are statistically differentiated (P = 0.016), and the former presents a higher nucleotide diversity (1.55 ± 1.11) than the latter (0.98 ± 0.75).

The fact that 5 of the 8 U6a haplotypes detected in the Near East are unique of this area (Fig. ​(Fig.2),2Figure 2), points to prehistoric demic movements as the most probable cause of the U6a Africa to Asia migration, although historic events cannot be completely ruled out. In frame with the estimated age of U6a are archaeological data supporting early migrations from Africa into the Near East [26].


THE U6 HAPLOGROUP DID NOT EXPAND IN EUROPE

The absence of U6 representatives in the rest of Europe, is also an argument against the hypothesis that these lineages could have migrated to North Africa from Europe.


IBERIA U6 DIVERSITY IS DUE TO NORTHWARD INVASION OF BERBER MUSLIMS IN SPAIN IN THE MIDDLE AGES

Most probably, the presence of these African lineages in Iberia is the result of northward expansions from Africa. The time of this expansion has been predominantly attributed to either the Arab/Berber occupation that lasted seven centuries [10] or to prehistoric immigrations of North Africans to Iberia [12]. Both processes could have contributed to model the U6 landscape in Iberia. First, haplotype matches show that 10 of the 19 U6 lineages detected in Iberia are not present in Africa (Fig. ​(Fig.2),2Figure 2), which points against only one recent immigration.

2.)At the light of these results we propose that U6b in Iberia is the signal of a prehistoric North African immigration that could have also brought some U6a lineages. Its actual northern range could be the result of a forced retreat due to the arrival of new southern incomers to Iberia. However, the U6a distribution is better explained as the result of more recent gene flow from North Africa.



THe U6a1 MIS TEH HAPLOGROUP RESPONSIBLE FOR AFRO ASIATIC EXPANSION

The fact that 5 of the 8 U6a haplotypes detected in the Near East are unique of this area (Fig. ​(Fig.2),2Figure 2), points to prehistoric demic movements as the most probable cause of the U6a Africa to Asia migration, although historic events cannot be completely ruled out.



THE U6A SUBCLAUDE DISTRIBUTION DISPLAYS FREQUENCIES IN SENEGAL

This explanation is reinforced when the number of segregating sites (S) are taken into account. This value is larger in West Africa (5.10 ± 1.5) than in the Canaries (2.60 ± 1.0) and the Iberian Peninsula (3.90 ± 1.4), but East Africa presents a lower value (3.2 ± 1.4). The fact that U6b and U6c have a restricted western distribution undoubtedly contributes to this Continental difference

PROTO U6a  MAY HAVE CAME FROM AFRICA

Five mutations separate N from the root of the African L3 [8], and there are only late evolved N lineages in Africa, whereas representatives of the full N radiation are present in Eurasia.


Thus, this continent would be the logical homeland of the proto-U6 that came back to Africa and spread in its northwest area around 30,000 ya (Table 4). Its most probable route had to be through East Africa.

U6 MOST LIKELY DID NOT ORIGINATE IN EUROPE OR SPAIN
In summary, the phylogeography, nucleotide diversity, and coalescence ages of U6 lineages show that this clade came back to Africa in Paleolithic times. Its most probable origin was the Near East and not Europe,



U6B IS SPOTTED IN VERY LOW FREQUENCIES

What remains enigmatic of the indubitable North African prehistoric colonization of the Archipelago is that it was carried out by people whose U6 lineages mainly belonged to the U6b subclade that has only been spotted in very low frequencies in the modern African populations of Morocco, Algeria, Senegal and Nigeria (Table 2).



Now drgonzga i may reiterate that sub saharan markers can be included as u6 and E3B since the former originates there and U6 is found there especially U6a which has traveled from East to West to and fro being found in Ethiopia to Senegal.


Note the U6 is not the widle found in North AFrica the highest being 20%, but it is very prominent among the Tuaregs who have 85% mtDNA of U6 found in teh Horn of Africa.

Quote
Perhaps you would do well to review this site:

 


I suggest you stop dealing with second hand websites who give there opinionated constructs that have no bearing on reality.Especially  nomenclature arranged nonsense of ancestry.com.




Edited by AksumVanguard - 15 Feb 2010 at 08:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2010 at 18:25
Aksum, to put it mildly your handling of evidence and sources is indicative of but one thing, the amateur embarking onto an unfamiliar ocean. Your snarkiness has now entered the realm of the boorish. The "conspiratorial" use of African would be amusing were not your objective rant falsification. The only other explanation is that you do not comprehend what you are reading. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2010 at 19:50
Speak for yourself drgonzaga, as you have been proven wrong time and time again in this thread but refuse to be corrected when evidence is so ever present. Its undeniable that you have a certain agenda on this thread that is very conspicuous, and I would suggest is an example repetitive nagging. What more proof do you need you have failed to produce evidence to prove otherwise and have not even mentioned your whole conclusion in this thread. The only next thing for you to do is carry on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 00:57
It is more than obvious that you do not comprehend the posits and conclusions of the Maca-Meyer, Gonzalez et al (2003) study nor understand that the thesis touches upon "Caucasoid" migrations in the Paleolithic through the Neolithic. You obviously pick-and-choose phrasings that suit your fancy and blankly avoid the actual conclusions so as to then introduce your "blackness" folderol...to leave that nonsense "unanswered" is unforgivable given the possibility of confusion by any visitor to the AE site.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 02:34
Again, Caucasoid  does not merit to classify a skeleton found in the Paleolithic Ages to be exactly Arabian,nor North African Berber,nor Iranian,nor Eurasian of origin . It does not necessarily mean that the skeleton is a hybrid either. Did you even read upon the Mechtoid Afalou it is an indigenous ancient race in North Africa, whose physical characteristics altered and adopted to their own  environment . Some researchers claim that they were a hybrid but the Mechtoid Afalou had those phenotypes due to their climate. Have your heard about the Fulani , or the Fulbe of Senegal some who have tall and what is so called Caucasoid  features, guess what they are not a admixture at all, neither are the Watusi as since research has already proven this.

It is just as I suspected drgonzaga, that you have your own centric  intention of trying to portray  Caucaosoid or Eurasian stereotypical  features were introduced from outside of Africa. Can you be certain?As I have said populations living distant but are located in the latitudes and similar habitats of environement may cause the human  populations to acquire similar phenotypical features. As you see Ethiopia has  moonsoons just the same as India, and they have the closest physical  features  to one another but they are totally unrelated genetically.

I think you have racist inkling to suppose that Caucasoid features are a gift from Eurasia to Africa, when it is already proven that the so called E3b genes originated in East AFrica. Why do you not understand that the Khoisians and their descendants take on so called mongoloid features as well as the mis labeled Caucasoid features when they are the closest thing to being the most recent human ancestor of all ethnicities. Logically the mongoloid or caucasoid features come from them and not from outside influence.


Now as for the back to Africa theory  of course it occurred but did they account for all the populations of people living in North AFrica?  No sir.. You have been disapproved by your own sources in which you claim to be reliable, and still choose to make themes to your own liking.

Hmm I really wonder why the J haplogroup is very prominent in Eurasia or South West Asia as they call it but is less than 10% of the population in East Africa,hmm. If remigration came back to to North and North Eastern africa so strong why is this J Y-DNA haplogroup not as prominent especially when it is older than the Berber E3b M-81,in Africa especially in Northern Africa, Sudan,Ethiopia,and Kenya. Hmm just something to think about.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml
  • J1 => 10,000 years ago (in the Arabian peninsula)
  • E-V13 => 10,000 years ago (in the Balkans)
  • I2b1 => 9,000 years ago (in Germany)
  • I2a1 => 8,000 years ago (in Sardinia)
  • I2a2 => 7,500 years ago (in the Dinaric Alps)
  • E-M81 => 5,500 years ago (in the Maghreb)



Right there on the site you will see the Berber Maghreb gene is only 5,500 years old.Let me repeat Caucasoid'' does not equate to Caucasian, as Arabs,East Indians,Perisans, and Japanese may have Caucasoid features but are not Caucasian. I'm very cautious about your word crafting prejudgement of the word.


Distribution of J haplogorup DNA
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Distribution_Haplogroup_J_Y-DNA.svg/800px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J_Y-DNA.svg.png


Edited by AksumVanguard - 16 Feb 2010 at 18:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 04:18
The Mechta-Afalou-Toralt? Now I know that you are reading beyond your level of comprehension! If we are to discuss the Cro Magnids and then thrust them into the Garamantian milieu then you really have a screw loose. But, not satisfied with this novelty you then introduce it within a "racial milieu"! I believe that you've been visting Mathilda's Blog with a little too much devotion and not enough savvy to follow discussion threads. The attempt to purposely misinterpret what I have written--if you did not notice the quote marks around Caucasoid then that's your problem--is little more than smoke-and-mirrors or just simple outrage:
 
Did you even read upon the Mechtoid Afalou it is an indigenous ancient race in North Africa...
 
Race!?! When discussing Cro Magnon and proposing an indigenous setting?
 
It is now more than obvious that the proper presentation of data actually escapes you:
 
Alexandra Rosa, Antonio Brehm et al. MtDNA of West African Guineans...

A non-random distribution of haplogroups U5 in the Fula group, the U6 among the "Brame" linguistic family and M1 in the Balanta-Djola group, suggests a correlation between the genetic and linguistic affiliation of Guinean populations. The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier suggestion of their Sudanese origin. Haplogroups U5 and U6, on the other hand, were found to be restricted to populations that are thought to represent the descendants of a southern expansion of Berbers.

340 Annals of Human Genetics (2004) 68,340–352 C University College
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 16 Feb 2010 at 04:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 21:31

Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

The Mechta-Afalou-Toralt? Now I know that you are reading beyond your level of comprehension!

 
I said nothing of the Mechtoid Afalou Torflat, that is why you need to observe more carefully what you read. Where did you see that? I said the Mechtoid Aalou which was a real ancient ethnicity in the Sahara, unlike you who may of first encountered its reference from the blog of Mathildasanthropology.
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

If we are to discuss the Cro Magnids and then thrust them into the Garamantian milieu then you really have a screw loose.
 
Where do I say that,this another one of your attempts to throw off the focus of discussion because you have no credence in any of your arguments. Wasn't it you who suggested that their was a backward migration in the Paleolithic ere. Despite the fact that the 12,000 year ago skeletons of Mechtoid Al Arbi was not corroborated with the 5,000 year ago m-81 haplotype found.
 
If anything as I said the Garamantes were an indegenous population of the Sahara,but most likely their earliest origins came from the Eastern Sudan, as DNA evidnece confirms the are related to the Bedja group.(I already gave the link in my 1st post). If you reread properly what I posted, I clearly stated rise of the Garamantes civilization was due to their forerunners most likely being  agrarian workers migrating to other parts of the once semi arid Sahara, to find better places for fertile farming. The forerunners of the Garamantes were lucky enough to find aquifers located beneath the Sahara sand which was focal in their farming and food supply.This of obviously was a great alternative to their agriculture work. 
 
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

But, not satisfied with this novelty you then introduce it within a "racial milieu"! I believe that you've been visting Mathilda's Blog with a little too much devotion and not enough savvy to follow discussion threads.
 
I believe that is your doing.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 The attempt to purposely misinterpret what I have written--if you did not notice the quote marks around Caucasoid then that's your problem--is little more than smoke-and-mirrors or just simple outrage:
 
Thats a lie you try  to imply that Caucasoid is something that is not autochthonous to the different  phenotypes of certain african populations.

 

 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

 
Race!?! When discussing Cro Magnon and proposing an indigenous setting?
 
Nice try grandpa, I think this another one of your attempts throuh in in a vast array of distractions on this thread to lose the focus and identity of the ethnogenesis,lifestyle, and sophistication of the Garamantes.
 
No one said anything when you through in teh reference to Mechtoid Al Arbi. As I said its a double standard, and will not work.
 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

It is now more than obvious that the proper presentation of data actually escapes you:
 
 
Quite the contrary, I think you need to read a little bit more carefully.
 
But I will help you to get a better understanding of what you posted. You have once again reaffirmed my points  in this thread with your link.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Alexandra Rosa, Antonio Brehm et al. MtDNA of West African Guineans...

A non-random distribution of haplogroups U5 in the Fula group, the U6 among the "Brame" linguistic family and M1 in the Balanta-Djola group, suggests a correlation between the genetic and linguistic affiliation of Guinean populations. The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier suggestion of their Sudanese origin. Haplogroups U5 and U6, on the other hand, were found to be restricted to populations that are thought to represent the descendants of a southern expansion of Berbers.

340 Annals of Human Genetics (2004) 68,340–352 C University College
 
Sudanese is Sudanese African and it is not Berber. Your article also states that the West African populations carrying U5 and U6 were found in people not thought to have berber lineages, which are located in restricted and isolated far away  the Maghreb region. That pretty much sums it up.
 
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From your own reference drgonzaga
 
FULA AND FULANI ARRIVED IN NORTHERN AFRICA FROM THE SAHELIAN REGION LATE

The Fula arrived again two centuries later, coming from the Futa Toro and Sahel regions, dominating the whole area. The Mandinga (Mandenka) were the last to arrive in this region(Carreira & Quintino, 1964).The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier suggestion of their Sudanese

THE U5 AND U6 CARRIERS WERE ANALYZED FROM POPULATIONS WHO WERE THOUGHT NOT BE DESCENDANTS OF BERBERS AND WEST AFRICANS

Haplogroups U5 and U6, on the other hand, were found to be restricted to populations that are thought to represent the descendants of a southern expansion of Berbers

THE U5 IS ONLY FOUND IN EUROPE WHERE AS U6 FOUND IN NORTH AFRICA ARABIA ,AND EAST AFRICA

 M1 and U6 are found in North and East Africa, Arabia, and the Middle East, whereas U5 has been sampled at appreciable frequencies only in Europe (Passarino et al. 1998; Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Richards et al. 2000).

FULA AND HORN AFRICANS ARE RELATED

Also the Fula haplotype GB39 has not been reported in West Africa but appears in East Africa: Lake Turkana (Watson et al. 1997), Nubia, Southern Sudan, Ethiopia and Saudi Arabia (our unpublished data).

Haplogroups L3b, L3d, and L3e are rare or absent

Haplotype GB178 in Fula shared an exact match withsequences from a wide range of East-African populations (Somalia, Egypt) and even Saudi Arabia. Haplogroup L3h is found in Ethiopia, CapeVerde and Niger/Nigeria at marginal frequencies (??1%) but reaches its highestknown frequency in the Ejamat from Guinea (8%). Its coalescent time estimate (14000??8400 ya) in Guineans is consistent with its late Pleistocene/early Holocenespread around Africa.

 

THE M1 HAPLOGROUP IS FOUND IN ARABIAN AND NORTHA FRICAN GROUPS

Africans (Plaza et al. 2003, unpublished data) where their frequency can reach 12.8% in Algerians and 4% among Moroccan and Algerian Arabs and Berbers. M1 is generally absent from autochthonousWest African populations but was found among Balanta, Baiote, and Djola groups speaking Niger Congo Atlantic Bak languages

SOME PEOPLE FROM THE TRIBES OF  THE MANJACO,MANDINKE, AND FULA CARRY THE U6 HAPLOTYPE

Three different U6 haplotypes were observed in Fula, Mandenka and Manjaco groups. These haplotypes match with sequences of a wide geographic range: North and West Africa (Cabo Verde, Tuareg, Mozabites, Moroccan Arabs and Berbers), East Africa (Nile Valley, Egypt and Ethiopia), the Middle East (Iran) and Mediterranean Europe (Sicily and Portugal, http://www.ahg.com/),

ONLY A SMALL AMOUNT OF INDIVIDUALS FROM FULBE CARRY THE U5 HAPLOTYPE

Ten individuals out of 372 samples, all related to Fulbe groups, carried mtDNA variants typical of western Eurasia, particularly Europe

THERE WASN'T THAT MUCH BARRIER BETWEEN NORTH AFRICAN AND WEST AFRICAN POPULATIONS

Roughly 87% of the mtDNA lineages found in the Guinean populations are common in otherWest African populations. Not surprisingly, the highest number of matches was with Cape Verde followed by other populations from the area (Mandenka, Wolof, Fulbe), but also with Morocco. The notable L haplotype sharing with North Africans testifies to the absence of a real barrier between this region and typical sub-Saharan populations.

THE U5 FOUND IN SOME FULBE MAY NOT BE DUE TO ADMIXTURE TO FOREIGN POPULATION

It seems plausible that the U5 lineages observed in the Fula arrived in Guin´e via Sahel from North Africa before the slave trade. None of the typical European haplogroups (H, J, and T) were found in the presentday population of Guinea, whereas they exist at a fairly high frequency in North Africa in contrast to the U5 frequency (only 4.5%). This makes it less likely that the presence of U5 in Guin´e, in particular, and in Northwest Africa in general, is due to recent admixture with the European population.



Edited by AksumVanguard - 17 Feb 2010 at 05:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2010 at 23:10
Please stop embarrassing yourself through improper and incomplete splicing of materials whose details obviously escape you...as for the Garamantes you dropped that ball long ago so as to wade into the Mesolithic/Holocene/Neolithic, on which you haven't the slightest clue. The Sahel of 5000 BC was not the Sahel of 500 BC, and within this latter dating, whatever you might try to make of Garamantes "civilization" or "culture" is utter nonsense since except for more intense activity to keep the "springs" flowing this site was scarcely different from the the entire Maghribi spectrum.  

Edited by drgonzaga - 16 Feb 2010 at 23:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 04:40
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

Please stop embarrassing yourself through improper and incomplete splicing of materials whose details obviously escape you...as for the Garamantes you dropped that ball long ago so as to wade into the Mesolithic/Holocene/Neolithic, on which you haven't the slightest clue. The Sahel of 5000 BC was not the Sahel of 500 BC, and within this latter dating, whatever you might try to make of Garamantes "civilization" or "culture" is utter nonsense since except for more intense activity to keep the "springs" flowing this site was scarcely different from the the entire Maghribi spectrum.  
 
Drgonzaga, you are confusing yourself repeatedly, it was your attempt to try and connect the Mechta al Arbi in Morrocco 12,000 with the Fezzan population that had totally different culture than that of Morrcco. Not to mention they were fairly distant.
 
It was you who brought the Mesolithic ,Holocene, and other ancient period into this discussion which is beyond me. Any of the onlookers reading would read that the Sahara had become dessicated during 5,000 years ago, as you would already know alot of parts of the region were once lush and fertile with plant life abundant in its vast range.
 
 
The Sahara was not always as dry as it is now. Before about 3000 B.C., the area experienced cycles of heavier rainfall in which a wide variety of plant and animal life flourished. Prehistoric humans occupied the region during these periods, leaving ROCK ART that shows images of a greener, wetter time when even water-loving hippopotamuses lived in the Sahara.
 
 
Although the Garamantes might of extended their authority to areas of the Sahel like the in what is today the country of Niger, we know the Garamantes had developed their civilization in Fezzan and this is the place of focus since because its where they originated,duh.  Your mistakenly going off subject throwing  the Sahel into this discussion, which shows you are totally unaware of what you are speaking of in this subject. Just because you unachievingly miscalculated  it arose in the Sahel  like  Ghana empire  or Mali Empire.  When you understand that the Garamantes rose in the Sahara just like the Nubian empires ,Kanem Bornu, Hausa, Songhai empire, you would change your perspective into the proper focal point , and discard your preconcieved bias that hints deceit.
 
 
Now the Garamantes were a civilization, they had urban centers, piping sytem, trade, craftsman,roads,metallurgy, and most of all a writing system called Tifnaq, how much indicators do you need to stip using your dimmutive term?Of course the Garamantes civilization arose out of the material culture prior to 1000 bc, and that is why I gave  few refereneces to the Fezzan area of 3000 BC. I didn't say Garamantes drgonzaga, culture I said civilization, please stop using your prejudice labels to denigrate other civilizations, I know your motives.Why did Herodotus and other Greco-Roman writers state they were the greatest civilization of the the so called Great Desert,hmm? Herodotus mentions the Garmantes in in 5th century bc,and says they were a great people. What more do you need to deny ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 13:47
Nice feint at innocence, Aksum, but that "who me" look will not hold. The entire premise of taking the Garamantes out of the Maghrebi milieu was your intention and it will not wash. Tifinagh is the Berber Abjad, as for "originating" all I can say is there you go again.
 
By the way Herodotus wrote a lot of things about the "Ridge of Sand" including the narrative on the Tritonis Sea, but if you do read the original the narrative brings together as a unit the entire stretch of the Ridge of Sand from the Oasis of Siwa through Jalo and the Fezzan to the salt mines of Terhazza in the tazen ruft. However, Herodotus does not serve as any sort of foundation upon which to separate or fracture the Berber unity of North Africa neither in the the 5th millenia BC nor in 500 AD!
 
Which brings me to my original point and that is the mishmosh made of disparate sources, mostly unreferenced, and given a jumble so as to suit the chatter. No reference to Henri Lhote although you mutter on about chariots--which by the way predate Garama (Terma)--but are silent on the distinct links ranging from the Lotophagoi to the Troglodyte Aethiopians (a name you want so badly to identify as East Africa!).
 
Now, you do recall how Herodotus ends his descriptions of "Africa"(IV.198) don't you?
 
I have now mentioned all the Lybians whose names I am acquainted with. Most of them at the time of which I write cared nothing for the King of Persia, any more than they do today.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 2010 at 23:05
Tifnaq was used by the Garamantes and the people still to use it in the modern era are the Tuaregs who use a modern variant called Neo-Tifinaq. From the beggining of Islamic times many of the berber tribes have been etched out their original identity and lost familiarity with their own native  language.  You do remember the term Moor, was coined by the Arab inhabitants of North Africa.  Not to mention a lot of the Berber langauges became extinct in North Africa and the Tuaregs and tebu along with the zaghawa are the ones to preserve this language.
 
 
 
If you are going to inject the nonsense of Maghreb specturum what do you mean, as you have already said the tribes of the Sahara were very different from one another. Despite the fact the Maghreb is a rather new term,and a lot of North Africans identifying with grassroot Berber identity  would not want to be called by the Arabic slur'' Maghreb''.In  North Africa you do know that there was a difference between the tribes of the Sahara although there of course  tribes similar in culture and lifestyle, I think this another attempt to confuse people as usual sicne you can't give a proper background.
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

although you mutter on about chariots-which by the way predate Garama (Terma)--but are silent on the distinct links ranging from the Lotophagoi to the Troglodyte Aethiopians (a name you want so badly to identify as East Africa!).
 
Where do I even identify the Lotophagi or Trogolydyte Ethiopians. Roman writers write of many other  tribes in North Africa that are called Ethiopian , and they do share some affinities.As I already said fierce tribes of the Perorsi and Pharussi , who were very prominent in North Africa.
 
Now you do know most of the Numidians, Massaelyians, and Nasomenes lived on the coast, and didn't live in the interior of the Sahara. There were of course Berbers much like the Tuareg and Tebu who are a Saharan tribe that  do share affinities to other  people the Sahara. It seems you are being a hypocrite when you say the Garamantes fall into the umbrella spectrum of the Maghreb identity. You have a double standard  when it comes to  classification.
 
Understand that the Garamantes lied diametrically adjascent to Morrocco, had the barriers of the Libyco Egyptians,Gauetulians and Luekaethiopes as a barrier. Thereafter they were a 30 days journey at least to the nearest north African city, compared to the 10 days journey from Lake Nuba. Understand the Melanogaetulians were North Africans who lied directly to the west of the Sahara from the Garamantes. 
 
Originally posted by drgonzaga drgonzaga wrote:

I have now mentioned all the Lybians whose names I am acquainted with. Most of them at the time of which I write cared nothing for the King of Persia, any more than they do today.
 
What does the word king of Persia have to do with the Garamantes
 
 
Sorry drgonzaga it wonders me, why  you are not understanding the North Africans of Morrocco  were not related.Ask yourself why do the Tuaregs only possess the  Tifinaq writing script, when the Tuaregs also live the most  basic of lifestyle.  A lot of authors have said the Zaghawa ,Teda, and Tuareg are the descendants of the Garamantes why do the Tuareg inhabit the South of the Sahara instead of spreading North of the Sahara. Take heed drgonzaga your North African Berber identity theory is flawed since its a pejorative term introduced by romans. Also do note a Berber identity didn't exist since the Garamantes often raided Roman provinces of Tripoltania, Africa, and Maurutania in which were inhabited by Libyan tribes like the Numidians
 
 


Edited by AksumVanguard - 18 Feb 2010 at 07:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2010 at 04:28
Are you dizzy from the pirouettes you've been performing, Axum? You do not even acknowledge the closing entered by Herodotus in his description that included the Garamantes as Lybians and assign its composition to me. That you do not like the term "West" expressed in Arabic is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned but it is also a contemporary term as much as Tamazgha and I really do not give a twit about the consequences of contemporary politics. That you blame the "Romans" is really a ROTFLMAO moment. Why not blame Herodotus since he identifies the entire kit-and-kaboodle as Lybia--a certain tent-dwelling former colonel would be most agreable to the proposition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2010 at 07:46
Drgonzga the Berber were never a united entity, it seems you are creating another pseudo historical concept that is not reality. Its funny how once you suggested that there is no united BLACK AFRICAN identity but you chose to dispose a united North African Berber Maghreb culture especially when in ancient times the tribes of North Africa were all but splintered. How much of a hypocrite can you be? One of the consolidations of these tribes are the Garamantes as they are collective term by greeks and Romans for people living in and around  Fezzan. After the fall of the Garamantes there would be the Zeneta,Sanhadja,and Kenata confederations. You can also include Masmuda but these were confederations in Islamic times, and prior to the Islamic Era in the Sahara there were Berbers uniting under one banner. We could use the term Maghreb which by the way is not what activist grassroots  Berbers of North Africa today  choose to call themselves, since Maghreb has implications of Arab Berberic identity.

Now as for Herodotus remark about Libya, let it be known that greeks referred to the whole of Africa as Libya in ancient times. And the reason why Herodotus remarked of Africa(Libya) as devalued  in ancient times was due to the Greeks not having extensive knowledge about the continent, since it was very remote and barren to traverse across.

Now as for the Garamantes relating to the tribes of modern day Maurantania and other Roman provinces , why did they often raid roman towns that were also occupied by North African tribes of what you may call the forerunners of the Maghreb culture.

 And why did the Garamantes see the subjects south of the Sahara their subjects? Julius Martenus traveled with Garamantian King into what is no today modern nigeria or the Lake Chad region and called the population of Agisymba his subjects(According to Ptolemy Iand Marinus of Tyre), as opposed to the city of Ammon(Siwa) or region of the Nasomenes. It makes you wonder which tribes and people of Africa did the Garamantes gravitate to.





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