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The Greatest Slavic Empire

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Poll Question: What in your opinion was the greatest empire ever created by Slavs?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
1 [7.69%]
1 [7.69%]
2 [15.38%]
9 [69.23%]
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    Posted: 27 May 2010 at 18:37
I wonder  about the top places distribution?

Edited by Sarmat - 28 May 2010 at 16:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2010 at 18:44
All of them are significant, but it is not hard to choose the Russian empire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2010 at 18:50
Indeed. My vote goes to Russia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2010 at 18:51
So, the Russian bear is totally unrivalled ? Smile

Edited by Sarmat - 27 May 2010 at 18:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2010 at 18:53
Shouldn't this be a no brainer?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2010 at 20:28
Of course, it is a no-brainer since none of the entities put forth identified itself as "Slavic" to begin with and the ruminations of 19th century Romantics notwithstanding mistaking realities for the sake of rhetorical flourishes against political exigencies for the sake of a mythical Slavonia is absurd on its face.

Edited by drgonzaga - 28 May 2010 at 04:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2010 at 20:34
Hmmm... Slavs are people that speak Slavic languages. And all of those people spoke them. I don't get the point about "mythical Slavonia" or whatever it is...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2010 at 20:37
The Good doctor, our very own wordsmith! Smile I took it to mean between Eastern European and Eurasian empires. I'm no scholar on that region, so what do i care in how he wants to define it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 04:11
Pardon the technicality, but would someone find the Slavs in the "Empire of All the Russias"? Kinda like looking for Moses in the reedy Nile, wouldn't you say? Then there is all this talk about the New Rome... Ain't myth-talk wunnerful?
 
Sorry, Ulrich, I seem to be taking your lines.


Edited by drgonzaga - 28 May 2010 at 04:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KnightsTemplar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 06:21
I deeply object with the Russian bear idea. Simply take a look at a map, and you can tell that the Slavs are originated in Europe. It's also by sheer happenstance that Russia also belonged to Asia, so that makes it not entirely European. I agree that it may be a Slavic empire, though not entirely. Of course, you may dramatically disapprove, but this is my sole opinion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 09:36

I wonder if you made this thread for pure self-glorification, Sarmat, as there really isn't any competition. Wink 

There were many different Russian empires though. The Kievan Rus empire for example, which originated with the Varangians and incorporated Slavic and Turkic influences, was different from the Muscovite empire, which ruled more in extension of Byzantine and Mongol traditions. Neither of these are very similar to Peter's empire, which can be seen as a counterreaction to the failure of the old way and drew on entirely new influences from the West. Needless to say the Soviet empire had little in common with the Romanov empire apart from geopolitics, whereas the modern Russia seems to distance itself from Soviet in many areas.
 
In terms of sheer force I consider Soviet immediately post-WW2 to be the most powerful, but if we consider more aspects of power, such as cultural influence, and I don't have the knowledge to answer that. My personal favourite is the Russian empire under Peter and Elizabeth; Russia in this period seems so open and cosmpolitan, outwardly energetic and inwardly dynamic, like an ancient state restored to its youthful optimism and creativity - you really get the sense it's a state that's going somewhere and the inhabitants know it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 10:31
I wonder why did you choose second Bulgarian Empire and not the first? The first empire was much more influencial and made huge impact on development of Slavonic world. If you think it wasn't exactly Slavonic then you can say the same for Russian Empire of Peter and later on, time when Russia was trully great.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 10:46
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

If you think it wasn't exactly Slavonic then you can say the same for Russian Empire of Peter and later on, time when Russia was trully great.


The non-slavic rulers were so few in numbers, that it is ridiculous not to call it a Slavonic empire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 14:32
Originally posted by KnightsTemplar KnightsTemplar wrote:

I deeply object with the Russian bear idea. Simply take a look at a map, and you can tell that the Slavs are originated in Europe. It's also by sheer happenstance that Russia also belonged to Asia, so that makes it not entirely European. I agree that it may be a Slavic empire, though not entirely. Of course, you may dramatically disapprove, but this is my sole opinion.

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The idea of empire is a "multinational state" with some "core ethnic group" in its foundation. All of those "empires" I listed included "non-Slavic" component. Yet, Slavs formed the bulk of those empires.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 14:39
Originally posted by Anton Anton wrote:

I wonder why did you choose second Bulgarian Empire and not the first? The first empire was much more influencial and made huge impact on development of Slavonic world. If you think it wasn't exactly Slavonic then you can say the same for Russian Empire of Peter and later on, time when Russia was trully great.
Yes, I admit, it's my fault. Let's assume that both Second and First Bulgarian Empires are included in the poll.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 15:01
Originally posted by KnightsTemplar KnightsTemplar wrote:

I deeply object with the Russian bear idea. Simply take a look at a map, and you can tell that the Slavs are originated in Europe. It's also by sheer happenstance that Russia also belonged to Asia, so that makes it not entirely European. I agree that it may be a Slavic empire, though not entirely. Of course, you may dramatically disapprove, but this is my sole opinion.

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By that logic, there was no British Empire from the late 18th century onwards. Nor a Dutch nor Portugese one, for that matter. The definition of Empire is that you have a dominant group ruling over less powerful ethnic groups.


Edited by Constantine XI - 28 May 2010 at 15:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 16:12
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

I wonder if you made this thread for pure self-glorification, Sarmat, as there really isn't any competition. Wink 

There were many different Russian empires though. The Kievan Rus empire for example, which originated with the Varangians and incorporated Slavic and Turkic influences, was different from the Muscovite empire, which ruled more in extension of Byzantine and Mongol traditions.
 
It's a very interesting question.  But, I wouldn't call Kievan Rus as a real empire. Contrary to what one may percieve, it was a very loose and even I would say "democratic" entity. A firm rule only existed during the reign of Igor, Sviatoslav and Vladimir while after Vladimir the rules of succession of Kievan throne were very "anarchic" I would say, with many Russian cities independently selecting princes they liked the most...  Although, at the same time the principality of Novgorod was building its own empire where it controlled and colonized large territories in the East and North-East.
 
And I would say that, perhaps Kievan state was more "Byzantine" (more in terms of cultural influences though than politically) and the Muscovite state was more  "Turko-Mongolian" (in terms of political and administrative organization).
 
 
 
Originally posted by Reginmund Reginmund wrote:

My personal favourite is the Russian empire under Peter and Elizabeth; Russia in this period seems so open and cosmpolitan, outwardly energetic and inwardly dynamic, like an ancient state restored to its youthful optimism and creativity - you really get the sense it's a state that's going somewhere and the inhabitants know it.
 
Why don't you like Catherine the Great's period?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 19:25
Still Russia is the winner :) But my vote goes for BG Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2010 at 20:22
Excellent choice ! Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KnightsTemplar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2010 at 00:02
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by KnightsTemplar KnightsTemplar wrote:

I deeply object with the Russian bear idea. Simply take a look at a map, and you can tell that the Slavs are originated in Europe. It's also by sheer happenstance that Russia also belonged to Asia, so that makes it not entirely European. I agree that it may be a Slavic empire, though not entirely. Of course, you may dramatically disapprove, but this is my sole opinion.

-KnightsTemplar


By that logic, there was no British Empire from the late 18th century onwards. Nor a Dutch nor Portugese one, for that matter. The definition of Empire is that you have a dominant group ruling over less powerful ethnic groups.


Oh don't get me wrong, I understand your point totally. But the way I see it, Russia belongs to two continents, and I don't think it's fitting to be an empire while it's locked between two continents, unless it's by alliance. However, seeing as my logic is faulty, I don't suppose I'm right, either.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2010 at 00:11
It doesn't make sense at all. How continents are related here?  So, Empire could be on one continent only?
 
Then there was no Persian, Roman, Ottoman, etc. etc. etc. empires...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 2010 at 01:36
Almost all European empires in the modern period were transcontinental. Russia, like the Ottomans, was simply different in that its empire was territorially contiguous. Why that should disqualify them as either Slavic or as an empire, I can't see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote soumyan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2010 at 16:01
Tongue  No doubt, The Russians.  whatever may be their composition; viz whether they are Asians or Europeans.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2010 at 21:10
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth doesn't belong to the poll because it never was an empire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2010 at 21:32
Originally posted by Roberts Roberts wrote:

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth doesn't belong to the poll because it never was an empire.


+ Lithuanians are Baltic people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2010 at 22:38
Originally posted by Roberts Roberts wrote:

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth doesn't belong to the poll because it never was an empire.
Well. Some would definitely disagree with you on that.
 
Smile
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2010 at 22:43
Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Roberts Roberts wrote:

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth doesn't belong to the poll because it never was an empire.


+ Lithuanians are Baltic people.
Lithuanians are Baltic people. But the empire was complitely dominated by the Slavic Polish culture and language. In fact, even before the creation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania became dominated by "Ruthenian language" (which was its official language BTW) and very influenced by "Ruthenian" Slavic culture as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2010 at 23:16
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Roberts Roberts wrote:

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth doesn't belong to the poll because it never was an empire.


+ Lithuanians are Baltic people.
Lithuanians are Baltic people. But the empire was complitely dominated by the Slavic Polish culture and language. In fact, even before the creation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania became dominated by "Ruthenian language" (which was its official language BTW) and very influenced by "Ruthenian" Slavic culture as well.

Still, the ruller had the title King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania. No Emperors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 2010 at 23:25
My house backyard empire!Smile

Edited by Suren - 30 May 2010 at 23:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2010 at 11:53
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

Originally posted by Flipper Flipper wrote:

Originally posted by Roberts Roberts wrote:

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth doesn't belong to the poll because it never was an empire.


+ Lithuanians are Baltic people.
Lithuanians are Baltic people. But the empire was complitely dominated by the Slavic Polish culture and language. In fact, even before the creation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Grand Duchy of Lithuania became dominated by "Ruthenian language" (which was its official language BTW) and very influenced by "Ruthenian" Slavic culture as well.


Thanks for the clarification Sarmat! Smile
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