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The heroes of Greek mythos

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    Posted: 28 Jul 2019 at 06:23
Elsewhere, I suggested that Achilles, the protagonist of Homer, is a fairy prince.  What I mean by that is that he is adopted from a fairy prince tale and integrated into the Homeric mythos.  First of all, the origin of the idea for me was Rhys Carpenter, I forget the name of the book.  But, it should not be that strange, after all, "the Lord of the Rings" has a fairy character in Tom Bombadil, left out unfortunately, although perhaps inevitably from the movies.  Of course, elves are also fairy inspired, but one gets a sense that if all the rest of Middle Earth had fallen to Sauron, Bombadil would still be in his patch of woods.  If one remembers, the one Ring had no effect on Bombadil when he put it on.

Anywho, I don't think we know what the name Achilles means, but he is the leader of the Myrmidons, Myrmex (and Myrmedon) means ants.  So, he is the leader of the ant contingent at Troy.  He is one of the few characters to have an ashen spear (spear made from ash), which is significant mythologically (see Robert Graves tree lore).  He is the son of the goddess (Thetis) and a mortal hero (Pelops).  There is a prophecy, originally known only to Prometheus, regarding Thetis, that could have spelled Zeus doom.  This is that Thetis' son would be greater than his father.  If one knows anything about Zeus, it is that he gets around, and his unions are always fruitful.  Prometheus traded the prophecy for his freedom, and Zeus promptly shotgun married Thetis off to a mortal.  Achilles also has twin fates, something that only one other Greek hero has (and we have a name, but don't know his story), he could either live a long but uneventful life, or a short but glorious one.  Zeus also owes Thetis for saving him once, when other gods bound him up, the rule is in mythology that if you are bound, you cannot get yourself free, but have to get someone else to do it.  So, when Agememnon angers Achilles, Achilles quits the war, and Thetis gets Zeus to help the Trojans, so that the Greeks (Achaians) will need Achilles.  Also Patrocles, Achilles' friend goes out in Achilles armor and wrecks havoc amongst the Trojans, but gets killed by the Trojan hero Hector.  Achilles decides once more to enter the fray, thus sealing his doom, his mother Thetis gets Hephaestos, god of smiths, to make him a new set of armor.


Edited by franciscosan - 28 Jul 2019 at 06:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jul 2019 at 11:01
So Homer is telling the very old story of Troy and uses an "Achilles" for the soldier who stops fighting for the king?





Edited by Vanuatu - 29 Jul 2019 at 14:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 02:32
Was Achilles a fairy in Homer's Iliad bc his mother was a nymph? 

Or are you referring to an existing idea of 'fairy' that Homer built upon but did not invent?

I can't discern that from online sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 08:27
Achilles was not a fairy, he was based on a fairy prince that must have been in ancient fairy tales.  You should understand that there was a big split in the interpretation of Homer which to some extent was resolved in the 1930s by Milman Parry.  Before him, there were the unitarians and the pluralists.  With Parry the resolution was made favoring the unitarians, the new view looking upon Homer as coming out of an oral tradition, like those of the Yugoslavian bards that Parry researched, rather than a blending of written traditions.  That oral tradition is definitely true for Homer, but the problem is, if it was an oral tradition, how did it get written down?  The unitarians look at Homer's works as literary wholes, which as far as looking at a story is also the right way to look at it.  The pluralists, on the other hand, concentrate on how the works were 'stitched" together using different stories, different sources.  They kinda lost out on the argument, but they had some really good points.  There are fragments of different traditions in the Iliiad and the Odyssey and a pluralist like Rhys Carpenter appreciates this better than a unitarian.  But, people looking at the Iliad as a literary work won't appreciate attempts to dissect it.  Achilles is the main hero of the Iliad, painting him as a fairy prince would seem incongruent to a unitarian, and thus verboten (forbidden).  Achilles is not the only hero to have come from other tales, and have been integrated into the new story line, sometimes not completely.  Odysseus has two names in the greater tradition, Ulysses and Odysseus.  He is kind of like a Sinbad character, or rather Sinbad is kind of like him.  This shows his importance and his independence of what we know as the Homeric cycle.  It is kind of like have a Norse god (Thor) in the Avengers.  Captain America is also integrated into the Marvel Universe from an older WWII, non-Marvel comic book series, as is the Sub-mariner.  The story of Odysseus and crew members being trapped in a cave by the cyclops, is an old, old tale with parallels in other cultures.  Ajax the Greater comes from a different era, and actually has a different, more "primitive" armor than the rest of the Greeks (actually, they're called Achaians), but you wouldn't notice the difference unless someone pointed it out to you in the text, (which no, I don't have right now).  Again, Helen is a minor goddess from Sparta.  That is not the role she plays in the Homeric cycle, but that is from whence she originated.

Vanuatu, you asked about fate (moira), I'll get to that later, unless something distracts me....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jul 2019 at 14:49
For the ancient Greeks, one could not avoid one's destiny, and often by trying to avoid it, one fell into it.  Oedipus' fate, for example, was to kill his father and marry his mother.  His father exposed him on a hillside, (left him out there to die), but someone came along and adopted him, the leader of a different city-state.  Growing up, and finding out about the prophesy, he left his (adoptive) father (unknowing that he was adopted).  On the road he came across a man on a pavilion, both refused to let the other go past (by getting off the road), Oedipus killed the man, who was the ruler of a local city, Thebes.  Upon getting to Thebes, he assumed the kingship of the city, by marrying Jocasta, the dead king's wife (and of course, his mother.)

Another example is the Lydian King Croesus, who in Herodotus Histories, sent for a prophecy to Delphi, asking what would happen if he attacked a neighboring kingdom, the oracle said, "if you attack, a great Kingdom will fall.  Lydia attacked the Persians, and lost.  The great kingdom was his own.

Some would think that it was not fair to Oedipus, because he didn't know.  That does nothing to moderate the horror the Greeks felt about killing one's father, and marrying his mother.  In Athenian law, it did not matter whether one didn't intend to commit a crime, you were guilty.  Oedipus and Jocasta had two sons and two daughters, Oedipus plucked his own eyes out and became a wanderer, Jocasta killed herself and the curse was transmitted to their children.

Normally, each person had one fate (moira), and that was how they were fated to end up.  There are also the goddesses, the three Fates.  But, the do not necessarily come into play all the time when fate is talked about.  There are stories about Paris' mother wanting him dead, because Paris was fated to cause the fall of Troy, and the house of Priam.  Those stories are not in the Homeric Cycle, but in the Attic Tragedies (Euripides fragments).  My point is, just because everyone knows how it is supposed to end up, doesn't mean they can change it.  Wouldn't it have been easier for the Trojans to lock the door, and send Paris and his stolen 'wife' Helen, packing?  But, Paris was a prince of Troy, and so they decided to resist.  It might have worked too, if the Greeks had not come up with the ruse of hiding in 'the Trojan horse.'  The Trojans were famous for their horses, and maybe they just thought it was the Greeks acknowledgement that the Greeks had lost.

But think about it, Achilles could have sailed away and lived a long but mediocre life.  We can say that 'no, he couldn't of, and been Achilles.  But, we are told that he had two fates, which he could have chosen between.  For most people, we know that they only have one fate, no matter how much it looks like they could have done differently, but Achilles had two fates.


Edited by franciscosan - 30 Jul 2019 at 14:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug 2019 at 15:46
Do the stories of Greek heroes usually have a moment in childhood which makes them aware of their destiny?

Is there any practice like 'chrism' -the anointing- as preparation for a heroic life by use of oil as in the Egyptian,Hebrew or Palestinian traditions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 14:48
No, they generally do not have a moment in childhood that makes them aware of their destiny.  Other people, through familiarity with prophecies can become aware of (usually just part of) it.  But, that does not mean that the hero is aware of it.  Jason is going to kill his corrupt uncle the king, which is why Jason gets sent to find the golden fleece.  He came to his uncle's palace with one shoe on, and having lost the other shoe crossing a river.  The uncle knew about the prophecy, Jason didn't.  Heroes are almost always, always heroes, there never is a time which they weren't.  If one is a Greek strongman, one can use Heracles as a model, but there never was a time when Heracles was a 98 pound weakling.  The infant Heracles strangled two serpents that Hera sent to kill him.

The anointing of oil is a Israelite way of crowning the king, it only translates into Greek through Christianity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 2019 at 21:02
No, I can't see any 'fairy prince' behind Homer's work. The Greeks had a different take on heroism and bearing in mind that in Greek culture winning was everything (take a look at Hercules. He commits war crimes, mass executions, but he's a hero because he wins). the interaction of the fairie and human races was one based on superstition whereas the greek model was based on a hyped up vision of everyday life.
http://www.unrv.com/forum/blog/31-caldrails-blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 02:04
Not even Achilles, leader of the ant-men?  I think Rhys Carpenter might argue that fairy prince is where it started out, not where it went.  If one can mix mythos in a Dungeons and Dragons game, maybe a shaman with a valkyrie, then I don't see how a reformed fairy prince would be that big of a deal in an Epic Tale.  Carpenter also argues that Odysseus is something out of a folk tale.

You do know that Achilles' horses could speak?  They say one thing and go mute ever after.

Have you ever seen a hero that didn't win?  I mean, heroes in the Iliad are different, many are just 'cannon' fodder.  But, the Iliad and Odyssey are not good examples of mythos.  For some things, they are our only or best source.  However they are good literature, but as far as straight mythology, Apollodorus or Hyginus are better.

Some modern scholars argue that Achilles is suffering from PTSD.  That is one way to think of it, but to me it explains one thing I don't understand (Achilles) with another thing I don't understand (PTSD).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 02:22
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:


Some modern scholars argue that Achilles is suffering from PTSD.  That is one way to think of it, but to me it explains one thing I don't understand (Achilles) with another thing I don't understand (PTSD).
I'm obviously just chiming here but Achilles sees the ghosts of soldiers that he's killed. Now that phenomenon has to be as old as war itself. 
What I can't fathom is how Achilles would have processed those visions. In the Greek stories it seems as though seeing the dead is fairly common, not very upsetting unless the dead was a victim of the hero.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 14:40
I don't remember Achilles seeing ghosts, but it has been awhile since I read the _Iliad_.  It should be understood that heroes in ancient Greece are generally not the nice guys that you would like to take home to mother.  And heroines generally end up badly, jilted at least.  Penelope and Helen are in many ways exceptions.  There is a Hesiodic work (Eoie(?)) which is about the women who through their affairs with the gods, give birth to the various "tribes" of the Greeks.  Of course, the Greeks were well aware of the "problematic" nature of the heroes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote caldrail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug 2019 at 20:55
Human psychology and story telling tend toward similar forms. That doesn't mean a medieval superstition has any actual links in ancient Greece. Two different cultures and mythologies. This all seems like the human talent for spotting patterns. It's the root cause of the ridiculous conspiracy theories we have to wade through today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Aug 2019 at 05:08
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I don't remember Achilles seeing ghosts, but it has been awhile since I read the _Iliad_.  It should be understood that heroes in ancient Greece are generally not the nice guys that you would like to take home to mother.  And heroines generally end up badly, jilted at least.  Penelope and Helen are in many ways exceptions.  There is a Hesiodic work (Eoie(?)) which is about the women who through their affairs with the gods, give birth to the various "tribes" of the Greeks.  Of course, the Greeks were well aware of the "problematic" nature of the heroes.
Wondering, How would you interpret this passage?
http://https://www.bartleby.com/203/185.html

‘Let Hector die,        125
And let me fall!’ (Achilles made reply.)
‘Far lies Patroclus from his native plain;
He fell, and, falling, wish’d my aid in vain.
Ah then, since from this miserable day
I cast all hope of my return away;        130
Since, unrevenged, a hundred ghosts demand
The fate of Hector from Achilles’ hand;
Since here, for brutal courage far renown’d,
I live an idle burden to the ground
(Others in council famed for nobler skill,        135
More useful to preserve than I to kill);
Let me—But oh! ye gracious Powers above!
Wrath and revenge from men and Gods remove:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2019 at 13:48
In your quote, the hundred are not casualties of Achilles, it is not clear that they are casualties of Hector, because elsewhere it seems like Hector doesn't ever kill anyone besides Patroclus.  On the other hand, the story is not internally consistent, partially because it comes out of an oral tradition.  I would want to look at a newer translation, or even try to delve into the Homeric Greek.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 01:15
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

In your quote, the hundred are not casualties of Achilles, it is not clear that they are casualties of Hector, because elsewhere it seems like Hector doesn't ever kill anyone besides Patroclus.  On the other hand, the story is not internally consistent, partially because it comes out of an oral tradition.  I would want to look at a newer translation, or even try to delve into the Homeric Greek.
 
I see the disconnect. Menelaos gets Elysian Fields for being a son in law of Zeus? Achilles spends eternity in Hades? Maybe in the quote the dead cry out for proper burial, no shortage of death and mutilation scenes. 

"In the Odyssey, Homer describes the underworld as having different areas for the different types of deceased. For instance, Menelaos will spend eternity in the Elysian Fields because he is Helen’s husband, the son-in-law of Zeus. The Elysian Fields, situated at the ends of the earth with the rest of the underworld, was considered to be paradise where the privileged resided."
Recommended Citation Adams, Jeff (2007) "Greek and Roman Perceptions of the Afterlife in Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey and Virgil’s Aeneid," McNair Scholars Journal: Vol. 11: Iss. 1, Article 2. Available at: http://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/mcnair/vol11/iss1/2


Edited by Vanuatu - 15 Aug 2019 at 03:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 13:34
Actually, in the Tale of Er in Plato's _Republic_, it is time for all the heroes to pick their lots for their next life.  All the big heroes are there, except Achilles, the implication is that he has gotten out of the cycle.

Simone Weil has an essay called, "Iliad, Poem of Might," in it she shows how the Iliad gives examples of everything that is terrible in war, or we might say, 'awesome and terrible.'  In Japanese the word would be 'taihen' which means great and terrible at the same time.  I have not checked it out, but I believe that each death in the Iliad is different, and yet the same.  People get disemboweled, run through the helmet with a spear, etc, etc, etc.  again each death is different, personal, yet the same.  slavery, concubinage, plague, defiling bodies. betrayal.  The Iliad is very honest about war, although there are somethings that are expurgated, the use of poison on arrows for example.  Arrows hurt tremendously when they hit, but are never fatal, never described as poisoned.  Odysseus in the Odyssey is said to have traveled to get poison for his arrows. 

I think that it is interesting that Menelaus (and of course, Helen) get to go to the Elysian fields (mentioned in the Odyssey).  He doesn't seem to "deserve" that, he isn't the greatest of heroes.  However, Heracles becomes a god, Odysseus probably could have lived forever, if that is what he wanted, if he had stayed with the goddess Calypso.  But, he wanted to go home, he did not even get to stay home on Ithaca, according to later stories.
There are other stories of heroes in the Elysian fields, I don't know if the list was standardized.  Again, Homer's story is not necessarily the best example mythologically.  Homer uses the stories of mythology, but in service of his general story, not necessarily in service of myth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2019 at 14:13
Myth of Er, "Spindle of Necessity" fascinating! thanks

In a hundred years during Homer's influence on mainland Greece the hero cults grow from 5 to 37. Menelaus likely got thumbs downs and Plato gave the heroes a sequel. 

6 J. N. Coldstream, “Hero-Cults in the Age of Homer,” Journal of Hellenic Studies 96 (1976), 9, 10.

The drastic increase in the amount of hero-cults is remarkable in such a short period of time. According to J. N. Coldstream: Blegen observed that none of the Prosymna votives was earlier than the late eighth century...These cults were suddenly instituted in the late eighth century because that was the time when the Homeric poems were beginning to circulate over  the mainland of Greece. … Many more of these votive deposits have been found in several regions; they lend powerful confirmation to the theory put forward by Farnell and Cook.36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 2019 at 08:18
If your wife is beautiful, everybody will want her.
If your wife is ugly nobody will want her.
I think the answer is for your wife to be beautiful, to you. although that also may just be another way
of saying she has character flaws to which you are blind.
Menelaus had the former problem.  
I don't think that men look any lesser upon him for letting Helen come back (instead of running her through).  She is the daughter of Zeus, which since gods and goddesses usually had sons, is itself something special.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 02:24
So Achilles saw the dead. Does it follow that Homer understood this about humans in general? Apparitions, visions, ghosts or memories that just seem real-were and are a part of life.

Seeing hundreds of dead bodies in dreams or in flashbacks isn't easily overcome, if ever. Romans and Greeks wanted a proper cremation/burial respectively, to put the spirits at rest. The whole idea was to keep the dead from coming back. Although who can say among everyday people of the time, what the relationship was to seeing dead relatives. Homer did more influencing than was influenced by his times, according to scholar sources.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 02:32
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

 
I don't think that men look any lesser upon him for letting Helen come back (instead of running her through).  She is the daughter of Zeus, which since gods and goddesses usually had sons, is itself something special.
When we read daughter or son of a god, is it really more a description of an ideal? The ancients don't actually believe in a god bloodline but a hero has the charisma or attributes of stand out. If there is no anointing at the young adult stage, it's already happened by magical birth. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2019 at 09:00
I don't know if Achilles saw the dead, the translation you use is old, it rhymes (which is an English poetical thing), it uses Roman names for the gods instead of the Greek names.  What do we mean by a line in a poem that 'says' Achilles saw the dead.  I would have to look at a newer translation, and maybe try to figure out what the Greek "original" is saying.  But, even then, that wouldn't necessarily mean that Homeric heroes sometimes see the dead.  It doesn't even mean that Achilles can see the dead, although there are times when he is described as godlike, and not only godlike, but raging in battle like unto a god.

You know how Tolkein or Star Wars myths are, well the Iliad and the Odyssey are not like that.  They were "originally" told by bards composing 'on the fly.'  They evolved that way, and eventually, _somehow_ got copied down.  How they "originally" transferred from oral to written is not really understood.  But, different parts were composed at different times, mainly in the Archaic age (pre 480 BC), and they were edited and finalized in the Hellenistic Era, to pull a number out of a hat, 3rd or 2nd BC in Alexandria.  They are great tales, and out of the same soup comes the Attic Tragedies of 5th and 4th c.  But, the stories are not all consistent on a fine level, vaguely generally yes.  But, not necessarily.

For example, there is a dual case in Greek, like English has singular and plural nouns, well in the Archaic period particularly there is a dual case for pairs.  Agememnon sends Odysseus and, I think(?) Diomedes on an envoy to try to get the sulking Achilles back into the battle,  Odysseus and Diomedes go, and the language uses the dual case pronoun saying that they went.  They get there and all of a sudden Phoenix, Achilles' mentor, that doesn't appear anywhere else, entreats Achilles to accept the apology and gifts, and get back into battle, (note, I don't remember whether this is before or after, Odysseus speaks, and I don't remember whether Diomedes speaks), but it is like the two heroes go on embassy to Achilles, and all of a sudden 'blip' there is the aged Phoenix.  It is a better story with him entreating Achilles as well, but it is not consistent. and that is how the Iliad and the Odysey are, composed on the fly, by hereditary bards called Homeridae, the tales trade secrets which, somehow, got out.

The Attic (Athens) tragedies have a more ancient, archaic feel to them, more likely to deal in prophetic dreams, apparitions, so forth.  One chilling character is the poor Trojan (Troy=Ilium (Iliad)) princess Cassandra who becomes Agememnon's concubine.  Apollo loved her and gave her the gift of prophecy, and she still wouldn't sleep with him, but a god cannot take away from a mortal the gift of a god, (even their own gift), so Apollo cursed her so that while she could see the future, no one would believe her.  Well, she can vividly see that Agememnon's wife Clytemnestra and her lover Aigistus, are going to murder Agememnon and her in the bath, but she cannot do anything about it, and no one will believe her.  There are stories of prophecies in the Iliad, but one does not see them, just hears about them as givens, oh, heroes can see gods and goddesses in the Iliad and the Odyssey, if the deity allows it.  But, what is also cool is the language of Homeric Greek that tells of phenomena and manifestations, much more glorious than plain old English, it would be like technicolor vs. regular film.  Sorry I cannot explain better than that.

When we are told by mythology that Zeus turned into a bull and fathered a hero with Europa, it means that the bull Zeus and Europa made the two-backed beast and got it on.  Now later interpretations and readings made this into analogies (like Euhemerism), that was not what the original myth was getting at.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 11:57
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Not even Achilles, leader of the ant-men?  I think Rhys Carpenter might argue that fairy prince is where it started out, not where it went.  If one can mix mythos in a Dungeons and Dragons game, maybe a shaman with a valkyrie, then I don't see how a reformed fairy prince would be that big of a deal in an Epic Tale.  Carpenter also argues that Odysseus is something out of a folk tale.

You do know that Achilles' horses could speak?  They say one thing and go mute ever after.

 Hi, what do Achilles horses say?




Edited by Vanuatu - 23 Aug 2019 at 12:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 12:31
I say, I don't remember, but it is just one line.  I am not living at my condo right now where most of my books are.  His horses have names, and so if you figure out their names, you can probably find the passage in an index.

But, there are weird things preserved in Iliad and the Odyssey.  The gates of horn and ivory are another one, (in the Odyssey, and in Virgil's Aeneid).  But look it up, and _then_ ask me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 12:36
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

I say, I don't remember, but it is just one line.  I am not living at my condo right now where most of my books are.  His horses have names, and so if you figure out their names, you can probably find the passage in an index.

But, there are weird things preserved in Iliad and the Odyssey.  The gates of horn and ivory are another one, (in the Odyssey, and in Virgil's Aeneid).  But look it up, and _then_ ask me.
Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2019 at 13:01
At Iliad 17.474-8, Automedon, Achilles' charioteer, states that only Patroclus was able to fully control these horses. When Xanthus was rebuked by the grieving Achilles for allowing Patroclus to be slain, Hera granted Xanthus human speech which broke Divine law, allowing the horse to say that a god had killed Patroclus and that a god would soon kill Achilles too. After this, the Erinyes struck the horse dumb.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2019 at 15:16
Do you know what Erinyes means?  The Erinyes are the (3?) goddesses known in English as the Furies, but their name _Erinyes_ means "kindly ones" because basically if you called them what they were [terrible avenging goddesses], they would come after you.

Patroclus means "father's glory" [Heracles=Hera's glory], a feminine version of the name is Cleopatra.

Homer knew about chariots, but he did not really understand how they were used in war, in the Iliad, they're kinda used as taxi cabs used to take the hero to where he is going to get off and fight on foot.

The god who was going to kill Achilles, is (also) Apollo, he would direct the arrow shot by Paris (also called Alexander), the bodily invulnerability except for the heel is a later development.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 13:08
I remember from the Oliver Stone film "Troy" the chariots wee used like that, seemed to make a point of showing it. LOL

Athena makes the Furies into the Fates, guardians of motherhood and childbirth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 14:15
Never saw Oliver Stone's "Troy"  I cannot see the furies being made into the fates, nor into (a separate thing), guardians of motherhood and childbirth  But, I would expect Oliver Stone to muck it up.
The three fates are, if I remember right Clotho who weaves the thread, Lachesis who measures the thread, and Atropos who cuts the thread.  (I think I got the names right).  This is the thread of a man's life, presumably woman's also.

But the fates are not goddesses of childbearing.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2019 at 22:56
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Never saw Oliver Stone's "Troy"  I cannot see the furies being made into the fates, nor into (a separate thing), guardians of motherhood and childbirth  But, I would expect Oliver Stone to muck it up.
The three fates are, if I remember right Clotho who weaves the thread, Lachesis who measures the thread, and Atropos who cuts the thread.  (I think I got the names right).  This is the thread of a man's life, presumably woman's also.

But the fates are not goddesses of childbearing.
The bit about Achilles on the chariot is in the movie "Troy"

The bit about Athena turning Furies into Fates is mythology.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2019 at 09:51
I don't know what mythology.

The greatest Hero (besides Heracles) is probably Achilles.  After Achilles died, Odysseus and Ajax the Greater competed over his armor (made by Hephaestus), each gave his speech, Ajax was an immensely strong hero, who did not have to rely on the gods for his prowess, Odysseus however, argued that he deserved it, because not only did he personally do great heroic feats, but he urged other men on, and therefore was instrumental in winning the Trojan War.  Odysseus had done stuff like rally the men, when they were in a retreat, he stood up to Achilles when Achilles wanted the whole army to fast after the death of Patroclus, saying that Achilles could do what he wants, but the whole army needs its breakfast if they were going to fight that day.  Odysseus won the armor and so, because of his wiles is the second greatest hero after Achilles before Troy.
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