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The heroes of Greek mythos

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 03:02
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

The thing about Heracles is that by modern standards his morality is way off for a superhero. He did after commit genocide against the Centaurs. But that's how it was with the Greeks. Win and everything is okay. Anything is okay. Lose and you're just a loser to be scorned.

Quite so, there is no thought of virtue for it's own sake. We see acts of intervention by the gods that are helpful, but the motivation is rarely mercy. It's only being the best that matters and the Greek gods value cunning, intelligence and force. Zeus obtains valuable gifts from every woman he seduces, aspects he lacked as the offspring of primordial beings. Through many conquests those attributes seem to rub off on Zeus, such as his affection for Hermes. Mortals had gifts that the gods could capture.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2020 at 03:37
Hera is the goddess of marriage and the wife of Zeus.  Marriage is what you might call her sphere of interest.  She is not a fertility goddess and as far as her progeny are considered, they are relatively few.  There may be other additions in obscure myths, but generally the goddess Hebe, the god Ares and god Hephaestus are recognized as hers.  In fact, she is Hephaestus' sole parent, (kind of like Zeus is Athena's sole parent).  Hephaestus and Athena are both gods of craft, amongst other things.  Aphrodite is Hephaestus' wife, but she is always getting together with Ares.

Regarding virtue, "virtue" literally means "manliness" and is the latin cognate for "arete".  Arete changes it meaning from Homer to, say, Aristotle.  But, of course, it still has its old meaning, but has picked up and been eclipsed by a new philosophical meaning of arete.  Arete is usually translated as "excellence." but again, remember that there is that 'manliness' for the heroes behind it.

Did Orpheus die?  He was a mortal, as were Bellorophon, Theseus, Perseus, Agememnon, Paris, Achilles, Odysseus, and countless others.  Heracles was so great a hero, that he became a god.  But, he tends to be an exception.  Now, in Orphic teachings, there is a divine (and a mundane) element in all humans, but that doesn't make us demigods.  Or maybe it does?  But, if everybody is a demigod, then does it make sense to call anyone a demigod??

I tend to think that Zeus doesn't get anything from the women he sleeps with (other than studily pleasure).  He leaves them with something, and gets away scot-free, isn't that the adolescent dream?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2020 at 14:36
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Hera is the goddess of marriage and the wife of Zeus.  Marriage is what you might call her sphere of interest.  She is not a fertility goddess and as far as her progeny are considered, they are relatively few.  There may be other additions in obscure myths, but generally the goddess Hebe, the god Ares and god Hephaestus are recognized as hers.  In fact, she is Hephaestus' sole parent, (kind of like Zeus is Athena's sole parent).  Hephaestus and Athena are both gods of craft, among other things.  Aphrodite is Hephaestus' wife, but she is always getting together with Ares.
Hephaestus wanted Athena first. Athena was born out of the head of Zues. A prophecy reveals to Zeus that the pregnant Metis (first wife of Zeus) will produce a second heir who will kill his own father. Zeus tricked Metis to play shape shifter and when she turned into a drop of water Zeus swallowed her.
Metis was cunning and wise, she gave Zeus a real headache. Hephaestus uses his hammer to smash open Zeus' head. Athena comes out in full battle gear.
Hephaestus wants Athena and ejaculates on her. The cloth Athena used to wipe herself off falls to the ground..the ejaculate fertilizes Gaia who doesn't want anything to do with the snake baby Erichthonius who is sort of adopted by Athena. Later Hephaestus marries Aphrodite.

Quote Regarding virtue, "virtue" literally means "manliness" and is the latin cognate for "arete".  Arete changes it meaning from Homer to, say, Aristotle.  But, of course, it still has its old meaning, but has picked up and been eclipsed by a new philosophical meaning of arete.  Arete is usually translated as "excellence." but again, remember that there is that 'manliness' for the heroes behind it.
Thanks. You are saying it used to mean manliness? 
Manliness in the way Achilles is a man? Or Hector, Paris?

Quote Did Orpheus die?  He was a mortal, as were Bellorophon, Theseus, Perseus, Agememnon, Paris, Achilles, Odysseus, and countless others.  Heracles was so great a hero, that he became a god.  But, he tends to be an exception.  Now, in Orphic teachings, there is a divine (and a mundane) element in all humans, but that doesn't make us demigods.  Or maybe it does?  But, if everybody is a demigod, then does it make sense to call anyone a demigod??
Orpheus' mother is a muse he gets the talent from her and I did think Apollo was known to be Orpheus' father.
According to Apollodorus and a fragment of Pindar, Orpheus' father was Oeagrus, a Thracian king, or, according to another version of the story, the god Apollo. His mother was (1) the muse Calliope, (2) her sister Polymnia, (3) a daughter of Pierus, son of Makednos or (4) lastly of Menippe, daughter of Thamyris.

Quote I tend to think that Zeus doesn't get anything from the women he sleeps with (other than studily pleasure).  He leaves them with something, and gets away scot-free, isn't that the adolescent dream?
Zeus is a progenitor of man he lives to reinvent mankind, Dionysus is a revolutionary child of Zeus 
I agree Bellerophon was mortal and he got help from Apollo, his story wasn't granted an ending he was meant to be Forgotten. 
Mostly everyone in Greek Myth is an offspring of Zeus or another god. Perseus is Zeus' son and he does kill Medusa. The countless others do human things, Achilles mother is not mortal and she saved Zeus once.

Thetis, in Greek mythology, a Nereid loved by Zeus and Poseidon. ... She saved Zeus when Poseidon, Hera, and Athena revolted against him, and she rescued both Hephaestus and Dionysus from the sea. She had a sanctuary at Sparta.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 13:05
no, I was saying it does mean manliness.  virtue is the latin equivalent.  "vir-tute.  In the Italian (Machievelli).  "vir" means man in latin.  (As in "werewolf").  virtue or in the Greek, arete, means manliness first, and then comes to mean excellence through Aristotle and so forth.  The excellence of a sword is that it is sharp, (but also a little flexible so it does not shatter when hit.)

Virgil, opening lines of the Aeneid, "arma virumque cano."  I sing of the arms and the man (-que is postpositive "and."  The Aeneid is like the Roman "Iliad/Odyssey"

When you say that Thetis was a Nereid "loved by Zeus and Poseidon."  I don't know the Poseidon angle, but she never consummated the love affair for there was a prophecy that her son would be greater than his father.  She, in a "shotgun marriage," married the hero Peleus. the father of Achilles.  Thetis belongs to a class of "dawn" goddesses, whose human spouses do not end up well. (but not necessarily that badly otherwise.  Thetis and Peleus-> Achilles.  Aurora and _______-> parents of Memnon.  Aphrodite and Anchises, parents of Aeneas.  Aeneas had to carry his father from the burning Troy.  You might also count the Babylonian Ishtar and her mate Dammuz.  Oh, also Aphrodite and Adonis.  it is not a good thing to hook up with a goddess.


Edited by franciscosan - Yesterday at 10:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2020 at 13:02
There are a couple of reasons in different stories for Zeus and Poseidon declining to marry Thetis.
First Thetis dates back to Cronos and she helped Zeus save the other Titans from Cronos.
Poseidon doesn't want a son to overthrow him but he does fight Thetis and Dionysus in a war at sea.
Hephaestus is loyal to Thetis bc she saved him when Hera or Zeus threw him off Olympus at birth bc he was lame.
The kicker is that at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis the goddess Eris drops a golden apple carved 'to the fairest' or something like that. Eris makes Paris choose and he chose Aphrodite with the promise of having the most beautiful woman for himself. Helen and Paris are under a spell.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 10:46
I think you are confusing a few things.  I don't believe that Thetis dates back to Cronos nor that she helped save the other titans from Cronos.  Eventually there is a war between titans and the gods and most of the titans were against the gods, and were condemned to Tartarus.  Prometheus and Epimetheus were exceptions.
Hephaestus was thrown into the sea, when he tried defending Hera against Zeus, Thetis also harbored Dionysus in the sea from Lycurgus.  I think there are different reasons for Hephaestus' lameness, 1) his fall 2) there is something about being only the child of one parent (Hera) that made him defective 3) smiths are often underdeveloped or lame in the legs, sometimes intentionally, and overdeveloped in their forearms and chest. 
I am not sure it is the Thetis/Peleus wedding that Eris dropped the golden apple. it may be the Harmonia/Cadmus wedding, but I'll check.
There is a Thetis, and a Thetys, two different deities.


Edited by franciscosan - Yesterday at 11:03
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