| FORUM | ARCHIVE |                    | TOTAL QUIZ RESULT |


  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The heroes of Greek mythos
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Welcome stranger, click here to read about some of the great benefits of registering for a free account with us and joining us in our global online community.


The heroes of Greek mythos

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 03:02
Originally posted by caldrail caldrail wrote:

The thing about Heracles is that by modern standards his morality is way off for a superhero. He did after commit genocide against the Centaurs. But that's how it was with the Greeks. Win and everything is okay. Anything is okay. Lose and you're just a loser to be scorned.

Quite so, there is no thought of virtue for it's own sake. We see acts of intervention by the gods that are helpful, but the motivation is rarely mercy. It's only being the best that matters and the Greek gods value cunning, intelligence and force. Zeus obtains valuable gifts from every woman he seduces, aspects he lacked as the offspring of primordial beings. Through many conquests those attributes seem to rub off on Zeus, such as his affection for Hermes. Mortals had gifts that the gods could capture.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2020 at 03:37
Hera is the goddess of marriage and the wife of Zeus.  Marriage is what you might call her sphere of interest.  She is not a fertility goddess and as far as her progeny are considered, they are relatively few.  There may be other additions in obscure myths, but generally the goddess Hebe, the god Ares and god Hephaestus are recognized as hers.  In fact, she is Hephaestus' sole parent, (kind of like Zeus is Athena's sole parent).  Hephaestus and Athena are both gods of craft, amongst other things.  Aphrodite is Hephaestus' wife, but she is always getting together with Ares.

Regarding virtue, "virtue" literally means "manliness" and is the latin cognate for "arete".  Arete changes it meaning from Homer to, say, Aristotle.  But, of course, it still has its old meaning, but has picked up and been eclipsed by a new philosophical meaning of arete.  Arete is usually translated as "excellence." but again, remember that there is that 'manliness' for the heroes behind it.

Did Orpheus die?  He was a mortal, as were Bellorophon, Theseus, Perseus, Agememnon, Paris, Achilles, Odysseus, and countless others.  Heracles was so great a hero, that he became a god.  But, he tends to be an exception.  Now, in Orphic teachings, there is a divine (and a mundane) element in all humans, but that doesn't make us demigods.  Or maybe it does?  But, if everybody is a demigod, then does it make sense to call anyone a demigod??

I tend to think that Zeus doesn't get anything from the women he sleeps with (other than studily pleasure).  He leaves them with something, and gets away scot-free, isn't that the adolescent dream?
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2020 at 14:36
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Hera is the goddess of marriage and the wife of Zeus.  Marriage is what you might call her sphere of interest.  She is not a fertility goddess and as far as her progeny are considered, they are relatively few.  There may be other additions in obscure myths, but generally the goddess Hebe, the god Ares and god Hephaestus are recognized as hers.  In fact, she is Hephaestus' sole parent, (kind of like Zeus is Athena's sole parent).  Hephaestus and Athena are both gods of craft, among other things.  Aphrodite is Hephaestus' wife, but she is always getting together with Ares.
Hephaestus wanted Athena first. Athena was born out of the head of Zues. A prophecy reveals to Zeus that the pregnant Metis (first wife of Zeus) will produce a second heir who will kill his own father. Zeus tricked Metis to play shape shifter and when she turned into a drop of water Zeus swallowed her.
Metis was cunning and wise, she gave Zeus a real headache. Hephaestus uses his hammer to smash open Zeus' head. Athena comes out in full battle gear.
Hephaestus wants Athena and ejaculates on her. The cloth Athena used to wipe herself off falls to the ground..the ejaculate fertilizes Gaia who doesn't want anything to do with the snake baby Erichthonius who is sort of adopted by Athena. Later Hephaestus marries Aphrodite.

Quote Regarding virtue, "virtue" literally means "manliness" and is the latin cognate for "arete".  Arete changes it meaning from Homer to, say, Aristotle.  But, of course, it still has its old meaning, but has picked up and been eclipsed by a new philosophical meaning of arete.  Arete is usually translated as "excellence." but again, remember that there is that 'manliness' for the heroes behind it.
Thanks. You are saying it used to mean manliness? 
Manliness in the way Achilles is a man? Or Hector, Paris?

Quote Did Orpheus die?  He was a mortal, as were Bellorophon, Theseus, Perseus, Agememnon, Paris, Achilles, Odysseus, and countless others.  Heracles was so great a hero, that he became a god.  But, he tends to be an exception.  Now, in Orphic teachings, there is a divine (and a mundane) element in all humans, but that doesn't make us demigods.  Or maybe it does?  But, if everybody is a demigod, then does it make sense to call anyone a demigod??
Orpheus' mother is a muse he gets the talent from her and I did think Apollo was known to be Orpheus' father.
According to Apollodorus and a fragment of Pindar, Orpheus' father was Oeagrus, a Thracian king, or, according to another version of the story, the god Apollo. His mother was (1) the muse Calliope, (2) her sister Polymnia, (3) a daughter of Pierus, son of Makednos or (4) lastly of Menippe, daughter of Thamyris.

Quote I tend to think that Zeus doesn't get anything from the women he sleeps with (other than studily pleasure).  He leaves them with something, and gets away scot-free, isn't that the adolescent dream?
Zeus is a progenitor of man he lives to reinvent mankind, Dionysus is a revolutionary child of Zeus 
I agree Bellerophon was mortal and he got help from Apollo, his story wasn't granted an ending he was meant to be Forgotten. 
Mostly everyone in Greek Myth is an offspring of Zeus or another god. Perseus is Zeus' son and he does kill Medusa. The countless others do human things, Achilles mother is not mortal and she saved Zeus once.

Thetis, in Greek mythology, a Nereid loved by Zeus and Poseidon. ... She saved Zeus when Poseidon, Hera, and Athena revolted against him, and she rescued both Hephaestus and Dionysus from the sea. She had a sanctuary at Sparta.

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2020 at 13:05
no, I was saying it does mean manliness.  virtue is the latin equivalent.  "vir-tute.  In the Italian (Machievelli).  "vir" means man in latin.  (As in "werewolf").  virtue or in the Greek, arete, means manliness first, and then comes to mean excellence through Aristotle and so forth.  The excellence of a sword is that it is sharp, (but also a little flexible so it does not shatter when hit.)

Virgil, opening lines of the Aeneid, "arma virumque cano."  I sing of the arms and the man (-que is postpositive "and."  The Aeneid is like the Roman "Iliad/Odyssey"

When you say that Thetis was a Nereid "loved by Zeus and Poseidon."  I don't know the Poseidon angle, but she never consummated the love affair for there was a prophecy that her son would be greater than his father.  She, in a "shotgun marriage," married the hero Peleus. the father of Achilles.  Thetis belongs to a class of "dawn" goddesses, whose human spouses do not end up well. (but not necessarily that badly otherwise.  Thetis and Peleus-> Achilles.  Aurora and _______-> parents of Memnon.  Aphrodite and Anchises, parents of Aeneas.  Aeneas had to carry his father from the burning Troy.  You might also count the Babylonian Ishtar and her mate Dammuz.  Oh, also Aphrodite and Adonis.  it is not a good thing to hook up with a goddess.


Edited by franciscosan - 23 Jan 2020 at 10:24
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 2020 at 13:02
There are a couple of reasons in different stories for Zeus and Poseidon declining to marry Thetis.
First Thetis dates back to Cronos and she helped Zeus save the other Titans from Cronos.
Poseidon doesn't want a son to overthrow him but he does fight Thetis and Dionysus in a war at sea.
Hephaestus is loyal to Thetis bc she saved him when Hera or Zeus threw him off Olympus at birth bc he was lame.
The kicker is that at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis the goddess Eris drops a golden apple carved 'to the fairest' or something like that. Eris makes Paris choose and he chose Aphrodite with the promise of having the most beautiful woman for himself. Helen and Paris are under a spell.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2020 at 10:46
I think you are confusing a few things.  I don't believe that Thetis dates back to Cronos nor that she helped save the other titans from Cronos.  Eventually there is a war between titans and the gods and most of the titans were against the gods, and were condemned to Tartarus.  Prometheus and Epimetheus were exceptions.
Hephaestus was thrown into the sea, when he tried defending Hera against Zeus, Thetis also harbored Dionysus in the sea from Lycurgus.  I think there are different reasons for Hephaestus' lameness, 1) his fall 2) there is something about being only the child of one parent (Hera) that made him defective 3) smiths are often underdeveloped or lame in the legs, sometimes intentionally, and overdeveloped in their forearms and chest. 
I am not sure it is the Thetis/Peleus wedding that Eris dropped the golden apple. it may be the Harmonia/Cadmus wedding, but I'll check.
There is a Thetis, and a Thetys, two different deities.


Edited by franciscosan - 23 Jan 2020 at 11:03
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2020 at 11:10
"I think you are confusing a few things.  I don't believe that Thetis dates back to Cronos nor that she helped save the other titans from Cronos. "

It was confused. From Encyclopedia Greek Myth-"

"At one stage she(Hera) conspired with Apollo and Poseidon To lead the Olympians against Zeus. Zeus having been in chains, he was freed by Thetis and Briareus."
-Mike Dixon Kennedy
pp152 
Briareus is son of Uranus and in the Iliad he was called Aegaeon. He was a Hundred Hand army of one.
Hera was punished with anvils chained to her feet while her wrists were chained in the clouds. 

It was the wedding of Thetis and Peleus. Being ambushed by Hera and her squad made Zeus much wiser, it happens soon after Rhea and Ouranus, have children(that was my confusion).
It's the Thetis with a "T" no "Y"
That's why Zeus is loathe to punish Achilles, and why Hephaestus made new armor for Achilles Thetis helped save young Hephaestus. Hector took Achilles' armor from the body of Patroclus. 
(defiling the corpse, IMO) Thetis can appeal to Zeus bc he has loyalty to her but he chose the law over his personal preference.


Edited by Vanuatu - 25 Jan 2020 at 11:50
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2020 at 14:46
There was a tradition that if one was bound, then one could not set one's self free.

Cronos and Rhea
Ouranos and Gaia

Cronos was Ouranos son
Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, and Hera, Demeter(???), Hestia were Cronos and Rhea's children.

Zeus is not "loathe to punish Achilles," there is no reason to punish Achilles.  Taking armor from a corpse was traditional, but yes, Achilles lost his first set of armor, no this would not be considered defiling a corpse.  Zeus is the law, but he still has to bow to fate.  
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2020 at 21:47
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Zeus is not "loathe to punish Achilles,"
Yes he is. Hundreds of examples in the Iliad of soldiers decapitating and mutilating corpses, and taking armor from dead soldiers. Zeus doesn't fret over it nor do the other gods.

Zeus is loyal to Thetis, mother of Achilles who asks mercy for her son. Achilles is prepared to turn the dogs on Hector's body. Apollo is outraged by this, Hera points out that Hector cannot be treated as an equal to Achilles, Hector's body must end but not at the expense of Achilles' honor.
When Thetis tells Achilles to allow King Priam to have his son's body for burial he complies.

 Samuel Elliot Basset and others(Causewitz-war- "a complete, untrammeled, absolute manifestation of violence,") have argued that what Achilles does to Hector is not only correct but incumbent as a duty of war. Ajax warns Menelaus what Hector will do to them-"For that's sure gone; the fowls of Troy and dogs will quickly force that piece-meal as I fear for my head, and thine O Atreus' son." Book XIII,II. 209-13
"Hector dragged the body of Patroclus that he might cut off the head to fix it on the Battlements and then trow the body to the dogs." Iliad XVIII, 11 154-56. 


Quote there is no reason to punish Achilles.
Only if he was expected to have a higher morality than every other man on the battlefield. The gods are keeping the war going, why do they care if Hector is eaten by dogs? They don't!  Homer cares, Apollo is playing war games. 
Quote Taking armor from a corpse was traditional, but yes, Achilles lost his first set of armor,
If there are "rules" then armor confiscated was to be forfeited, not to be used by Hector.

Patroclus takes Achilles' armor after Achilles refuses to fight. Agamemnon took war booty, Briseis, from Achilles. 
J.P. Vernant in the essay "Beautiful Death" called mutilation the "Sinister Obverse of the Beautiful Death."
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2020 at 14:45
You should read the Iliad, a lot of stuff has been --ex-er-ba-ted-- (expurgated) out of the Iliad, (like poison arrows), at one point, there probably was a lot of mutilation of corpse, etc.  That kind of stuff gets edited out, taking of armor is how you got paid, the spoils of war.

Zeus is not "loyal to Thetis."  He owes her a favor, and is going to pay that, but she is a lesser and he is a greater, _the_ greater.  Thetis does not ask for mercy, no man can escape his fate, including Achilles.  She wants Zeus to show the Achaeans (Greeks) how much they should appreciate him. and after the death of Patroclus, Thetis has Hephaestus refurbish him.

Well, I guess we don't fight wars according to Clauswitz, or Basset hound.


Edited by franciscosan - 31 Jan 2020 at 02:58
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jan 2020 at 16:49
There were two ways to get booty, the short term grab on the battlefield for some like Ajax or Patroclus. It was the people/Kings who redistributed all the booty. Not all soldiers earned booty. Achilles was not collecting trinkets. Apollo basically killed Patroclus for Hector, no honor in killing a man near death and then wearing his armor. Hector couldn't handle Achilles' weapons bc they were not made for a mortal.

I am reading it  thanks for the suggestion, maybe you should re read it :)

Semantics

Thetis wants Zeus to keep the promise he made at the time of Achilles birth. Achilles would have an honorable Hero's death, she wants mercy to spare Achilles from a horrible afterlife. Death without burial honors for Achilles is why we hate the gods. 

Shocked to think that in Homer's time, warriors gave any thought to the dignity of the Trojan corpses. These values are absent in modern warfare.


Edited by Vanuatu - 27 Jan 2020 at 16:51
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2020 at 12:19
They are not absent in modern warfare, Geneva convention.  We may violate them, but even so, we know when we are doing so.

Achilles, when he eventually dies, will get burial honors.  The Greeks (with occasional exceptions in history) did not hate the gods.  They may have feared them, or feared them and loved them.

Euphorbus wounds Patroclus, Apollo smacks him silly, and Hector slays him.  I don't know where it says the Hector got Achilles weapons, it seems to me just the armor and shield.

Hector is powerful, but I seem to remember that he doesn't slay anyone specific in the Iliad, except Patroclus.  Hector does give some bad advice.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2020 at 22:47
They are absent when we ignore them. Speaking of it as a lofty ideal while mutilating the dead is not really "knowing."

Double dealing Zeus gives honors but puts Achilles in Tartarus, that idea of hating the gods seems rather prevalent IMO.

Hector wore Achilles helmet, he couldn't even hold his spear but tried to take it. Apollo makes it so *Patroclus can't recover from Euphorbus, remember Apollo is a god.
Hector can't use Achilles' Helmet bc Achilles is a demigod.

Hector spends a lot of time running away.



Edited by Vanuatu - 31 Jan 2020 at 03:38
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2020 at 09:29
not Tartarus but Hades, all men go to Hades, except, well, Helen and Menelaus who go to Elysium Fields.
Does Hector, known as Hector of the bright shining helmet, use Achilles' helmet?  Why does he need to, when his aspect is his own neat nifty helmet?
Apollo makes it so _Patroclus_ cannot recover from Euphorbus.  Remember that Euphorbus is a past life of Pythagoras, and Pythagoras was also said to be Apollo.  So therefore, Euphorbus and Apollo mortally wounded Patroclus.  Or we might say Euphorbus-Apollo mortally wounded Patroclus, as if they are the same thing.  In the Iliad, Menelaus does not recover Euphorbus' armor/shield, but in other versions, he does.

I see the good and do otherwise.  Or as the bumper sticker says, "I am a good dog, I just sometimes do bad things."

I think anyone would run if a berserk Achilles was chasing after them, run in a panic.


Edited by franciscosan - 29 Jan 2020 at 09:34
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 2020 at 13:19
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Does Hector, known as Hector of the bright shining helmet, use Achilles' helmet?  Why does he need to, when his aspect is his own neat nifty helmet?
Iliad XVI
Patroclus never saw him coming,
moving across the deadly rout, shrouded in thick mist
and on he came against him and looming up behind him now—
slammed his broad shoulders and back with the god's flat hand
and his eyes spun as Apollo knocked the helmet off his head
and under his horses' hoofs it tumbled, clattering on
with its four forged horns and its hollow blank eyes
and its plumes were all smeared in the bloody dust.
Forbidden before this to defile its crest in dust,,
it guarded the head and handsome brow of a god,
a man like a god, Achilles. But now the Father
gave it over to Hector to guard his head in war
since Hector's death was closing on him quickly.

Patroclus though—the spear in his grip was shattered,
the whole of its rugged bronze-shod shadow-casting length
and his shield with straps and tassels dropped from his shoulders,
flung down on the ground-and lord Apollo the son of Zeus
wrenched his breastplate off. Disaster seized him—
his fine legs buckling—
                              he stood there, senseless—

Quote Apollo makes it so _Patroclus_ cannot recover from Euphorbus.  Remember that Euphorbus is a past life of Pythagoras, and Pythagoras was also said to be Apollo.  So therefore, Euphorbus and Apollo mortally wounded Patroclus.  Or we might say Euphorbus-Apollo mortally wounded Patroclus, as if they are the same thing.  In the Iliad, Menelaus does not recover Euphorbus' armor/shield, but in other versions, he does.
Thanks, for the info Thumbs Up




Edited by Vanuatu - 29 Jan 2020 at 13:21
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2020 at 03:11
In the Pythagoras story there are times when he recognizes the shield of Euphorbus, donated to some temple (2 different ones in two different accounts), by Menelaus.  But, in _our_ version of the Iliad, Menelaus does not recover Euphorbus' shield.  There is a painted vase that shows Menelaus above the body of Euphorbus, Euphorbus has a shield and Menelaus has a shield with the same emblem as Euphorbus, indicating that he has picked up and acquired Euphorbus' shield.

The Iliad and Odyssey don't completely get finalized until in Alexandria during the Hellenistic era.  There are lines in Plato that are quoted as being from the Iliad, but are not found in our Iliad.  Although most of the Homeric lines in Plato are in _our_ Homer, probably though, because they were felt to be needed to be included because, hey, they're in Plato.

What translation are you using for the Iliad?  In the past I have used Richmond Lattimore which gives some sense of the poetic tempo.  But, I think for what I want, I would really have to crack into the Greek.  Loeb library edition (Greek/English) might be a good compromise.


Edited by franciscosan - 31 Jan 2020 at 03:19
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2020 at 03:58
First, on Orpheus two versions right? What do you think? He either drowned himself or the Maenads devour him. Some suggestion in the wiki article that Orpheus never had a chance at getting Eurydice out of Hades. The gods were toying with him by  showing an apparition of her and I guess could have made him turn around and look at her before they say daylight.


Free online Samuel Butler 

I have recommended this article before but I guess links were bad or some such, it's a good read.
2007 
Greek and Roman Perceptions of the Afterlife in Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey and Virgil’s Aeneid 
Jeff Adams Grand Valley State University

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 2020 at 11:16
This is a link to the pages on Hector wearing Achilles armor, I have a dozen ongoing reads. 

or maybe this one


Edited by Vanuatu - 31 Jan 2020 at 13:01
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 2020 at 02:44
safari can't find the server, I think it is the https link that are bad for it.
Orpheus was torn apart.  Whether he was cannibalized I don't know.  I would say no, but there is an element of what is happening to him is like what happened to Dionysus who was torn apart and cannibalized by Titans (earth giants).  Dionysus was from heaven, Titans were from Earth.  Zeus blasted them with a lightening bolt and from the ashes (of both the Titans and Dionysus) made man who has a mixture of heaven and earth in his nature.

I don't have a problem of Hector wearing Achilles armor, I just wonder if he would wear his helmet.

I think it is best to believe that he could have gotten Eurydice out if he had just resisted temptation to look back.  But human nature being what it was, he was bound to look.  There may be variations on the myth, but I think is the most powerful version.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2020 at 00:37
The story began with the wedding of Peleus and Thetis which all the gods had been invited to attend except for Eris, goddess of discord. When Eris appeared at the festivities she was turned away and in her anger cast the golden apple amongst the assembled goddesses addressed "To the Fairest." Three goddesses laid claim to the apple--Aphrodite, Hera and Athena. Zeus was asked to mediate and he commanded Hermes to lead the three goddesses to Paris of Troy to decide the issue. 

Some sources argue that she was one of the earliest of deities worshipped in Archaic Greece, the oral traditions and records of which are lost. Only one written record, a fragment, exists attesting to her worship and an early Alcman hymn exists that identifies Thetis as the creator of the universe. Worship of Thetis as the goddess is documented to have persisted in some regions by historical writers such as Pausanias.


It not clear to me where Achilles is during the judgement of Paris. In the stories about the apple, Achilles isn't mentioned.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2020 at 03:57
You're forgetting something, the judgment is at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis.  Achilles is just a gleam in his father's eye.

Marrying a goddess may be something that every red blooded male wants to do, but it is also something that kind of sucks the energy out of a man.  Peleus does not really do anything after marrying Thetis (besides being a king), and Anchises who hooked up with Aphrodite, was enfeebled and had to be carried out of a burning Troy by his adult son Aeneas.  There are Roman Republic coins that show Aeneas carrying Anchises on his shoulders.

The Pythagoreans said that you should consort with a woman when you wanted to loose your strength.  And the Greek athletic tradition believed that a man should abstain from sex when training, and this kind of belief is popular in tribal societies, not just for athletics, but hunting and war.

All women were goddesses according to the Pythagoreans, and their names reflected that.  Kore or maiden, nymphe or wife, meter or mother, and Maia or grandmother.

If you find the idea of Eris interesting, you might look at the Principia Discordia, something along the lines of Robert Anton Wilson that had some popularity in the RP games community (Steve Jackson games).  She could well be a "demoted" older goddess.

In the philosopher-mystic poet and doctor, Empedocles of Agrigentum, there are four (maybe 5) elements, air, earth, fire and water (and ether), Zeus, Hera, Aidoneus or Hephaestus and Nessa?? (a minor Sicilian water goddess), but there are also two primordial forces, Love (Aphrodite) and Strife (Neikos?).  It should be understood that in the standard Greek pantheon, Aphrodite is older than the other Olympians, and one might assume Strife is as well, (Neikos or in this case Eris).  Love and strife are the principles of attraction and repulsion.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2020 at 00:43
"You're forgetting something, the judgment is at the wedding of Peleus and Thetis.  Achilles is just a gleam in his father's eye."

Thanks for Eris info.

So Paris is a boy when the 'Judgement' occurs? That is the thing that doesn't make sense, Paris is always described as a young man. Wouldn't Paris be considered an adult grown man ? 
Unless Achilles is a later addition to the line of Thetis. 

Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2020 at 02:25
Yeh, the chronology is a little off, like Captain America (and the Sub-mariner) being big in WWII and also in the Avengers.  (Oh yeah, that's right, its the "super-serum")  Look how Ajax the greater is armed, he is a hero from another time and his armor and shield reflect that.

That happened for Marvel Comics because they bought up another Comic book company, and had to integrate their characters.  But, the story of Thetis would not really exist if it weren't for her marriage to a mortal, and Achilles.  She is a Nereid.  Can you even name one other Nereid?  I can't.
The Greeks depicted myths on their pottery (which is what they drew on, papyri was much too expensive for that.)  So looking a Greek pottery, we can see to some extent different versions of the Cyclic poems, not just Homer, not just Iliad, but others as well.
Back to Top
Vanuatu View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar

Joined: 24 Feb 2015
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 2274
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 2020 at 12:21
"Yeh, the chronology is a little off, like Captain America (and the Sub-mariner) being big in WWII and also in the Avengers.  (Oh yeah, that's right, its the "super-serum")  Look how Ajax the greater is armed, he is a hero from another time and his armor and shield reflect that."

There is a term for this way of writing in the ancient world. 
Can you help me out? 
I can't seem to find it but it directly relates to using details that belong to a different age as though they were contemporary.
Still round the corner there may wait, a new road or a secret gate. (J. R. R. Tolkien)
Back to Top
franciscosan View Drop Down
WorldHistoria Master
WorldHistoria Master


Joined: 09 Feb 2015
Location: Littleton CO
Status: Offline
Points: 10528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 2020 at 02:13
I think you mean "anachronistic" or "anachronism"
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.092 seconds.