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the Iron Age in India and Aryans

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    Posted: 09 Aug 2020 at 00:00
Does the beginning of the Iron Age in India have anything to do with Aryans?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2020 at 17:14
Originally posted by Novosedoff Novosedoff wrote:

Does the beginning of the Iron Age in India have anything to do with Aryans?
No agreement with modern archaeology yet there is nothing to disprove the dates from M.Wheeler except the complication of Achaemenid suzerainty and whether it extended into the subcontinent.

The Hittites keep the secret of smelting until 1200 BC by 1100 BC iron age was fully operational, iron was produced in greater abundance than bronze on the Iranian Plateau. By 800 BC full production from eastern Asia to Western Europe.

"There is at present no clear evidence for the systematic use of Iron anywhere on the Indian subcontinent before (VI century BC) unless sporadically in the Northwest regions. Attempts to equip the Vedic Aryans in the middle of the second millennium BC, or their successors of the Brahmana period, with iron have no solid substance..."

Sir Mortimer Wheeler- Wheeler claims Herodotus and Ktesias provide the earliest archaeological evidence V BC for regular use of iron on the subcontinent as referenced by the First Taxila (Bhir Mound). 

Mortimer Wheeler's book is titled "Charsadda/A Metropolis of the North West Frontier" he also wrote "Early India and Pakistan to Ashoka" 1959

Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient
Vol. 6, No. 3 (Dec., 1963), pp. 309-318 (10 pages)
Published by: Brill



Edited by Vanuatu - 09 Aug 2020 at 17:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2020 at 18:56
Originally posted by Vanuatu Vanuatu wrote:

Originally posted by Novosedoff Novosedoff wrote:

Does the beginning of the Iron Age in India have anything to do with Aryans?
 

The Hittites keep the secret of smelting until 1200 BC by 1100 BC iron age was fully operational, iron was produced in greater abundance than bronze on the Iranian Plateau. By 800 BC full production from eastern Asia to Western Europe.

But Hittites were still Indo-European, right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2020 at 19:18
[/QUOTE]

But Hittites were still Indo-European, right?
[/QUOTE]
Indo-Aryans

The first wave of Indo-Iranians to migrate are known as Indo-Aryans. They settled in Anatolia, modern day Asia Minor, which is bounded by the Black, Mediterranean and Aegean Seas and the Indian Subcontinent. Those that settled in Anatolia were the primary ancestors of the Hittites and Mitanni.Sep 12, 2017
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 2020 at 23:02

in my opinion this is just one theory, maybe too much exploited till today that have become some sort of mainstream cliche, I'll say who can tell for sure that the indo-european migration began in India, there new clues that maybe it started in Mediterranean and spread first on the Balkan Peninsula Middle East and Northern Africa and then was pushed eastern till China and India, and maybe after came back as new migration, there is plenty evidence that in Balkans there is older script than in Indus Valley, tho this is still in the realm of alternative history, for sure lacking more archeo-linguistic studies that would demystify the current eneolithic narrative that the known human civilization has spread form east to west in those times, altho only if there is accounted the plato's mention of atlanteans that is solely good base for this current indo-european narrative boils to just a side theory not prime as is today ...

this is even more true if it is known that hurrian language is not related to the indo-european branch thus making hole in that theory for indo-european miggration!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 09:07
Indo-aryan basically equals Indo-European, basically equals Aryan.
but of course, Aryan has a nazi implication these days.

Iran comes from "Aryan"
Ireland comes from "Aryan" land.

There are songs in Celtic on the one hand, and Farsi(?) on the other hand, that have a common origin in Indo-European.

There is a difference in written script and oral language.  The Balkans could have older script and still be younger than oral Indo-European language which is (theoretically) evident from language evolution in various languages from Tocharian to Celtic.  Not all European languages, however, are Indo-European, for example Finnish and Hungarian are their own family, and Basque is an odd ball, there before the Celtic invasion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 09:56
I am not implying that balkan languages are older, just that is more plausible today that the aryan theory (as it is) is just one of the possible answers not prime, simply Your statement about the script and linguistics could be used also to Africa too, it is said that atlanteans were trading with south african kingdoms, yet when Atlantis fall they rush in Mediterranean Sea through Gibraltar and went ahead, this is not meaning that they are the first civilization on earth, maybe there were other before as organised human cultures, still it is assumed that atlanteans had own rivals maybe somewhere on east maybe around India, tho all this stance is mythological but there many gaps inbetween modern interpretations about the oldest human cultures, I would say the truth is somewhere between the myths and the archaeological evidence along the world migrations in the little ice age ...

Edited by Pelagon - 10 Aug 2020 at 09:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vanuatu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 2020 at 13:51
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Indo-aryan basically equals Indo-European, basically equals Aryan.
but of course, Aryan has a nazi implication these days.


So why does Wheeler write a book about the distinction?
Don't just roll in and make claims, where are the FACTS to back the statement?






Edited by Vanuatu - 12 Aug 2020 at 15:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 2020 at 23:13
Originally posted by franciscosan franciscosan wrote:

Indo-aryan basically equals Indo-European, basically equals Aryan.
but of course, Aryan has a nazi implication these days.

Iran comes from "Aryan"
Ireland comes from "Aryan" land.

There are songs in Celtic on the one hand, and Farsi(?) on the other hand, that have a common origin in Indo-European.

There is a difference in written script and oral language.  The Balkans could have older script and still be younger than oral Indo-European language which is (theoretically) evident from language evolution in various languages from Tocharian to Celtic.  Not all European languages, however, are Indo-European, for example Finnish and Hungarian are their own family, and Basque is an odd ball, there before the Celtic invasion.

Not just language, the rituals are also very similar

The burial scene from The ring of the Nibelungs (based on German epic)

The 13th warrior, Vikings cremation scene (based on Ibn Fadlan story)

The modern day India, they always cremate next to the river, 50 years ago before the Govt's prohibition they would let the burning corpse drift away
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2020 at 00:56
I have intentionally mentioned as digression the folk tale about the atlanteans, coz this indo-european theory I think is almost on the same level, altho rests on indian valley archaeology and mostly linguistic deconstruction, for what I have linked scientific conclusions that there is evidently hole in the mainstream theory ... my assumption is that there are many variables to this aryan theory, first the name arya, then the starting point of the first civilization believed to be in the indus valley, and finally after the excavation of Gobekli Tepe its ridiculous someone to state that Mohedjo Daro as bronse age site is older than the neolithic Gobekli, tho I think there is even older eneolithic civilization, lets say in eneolith were dominant wooden fortifications and huts in the settlements, and after in the neolith some groups started to erect stone walls, something that with Gobekli Tebe is becoming actual fact, thus this oldest human settlement (logically civilization) predates for more than half millennium those of the indus valley and middle east which are now considered as oldest as are seen Uruk or M.Daro, this is more evident from the neolithic know-how eg. from the 8kBC Wall of Jericho, or 11kBC carving of love scene from Wadi Khareitoun near Bethlehem ...


tracing the socalled aryan civilization as first organised human society in the indus-valley and on top of that all of this to be supported by linguistic schemes, I can freely say such conclusion is false presumption of the truth, thats why I am saying as theory is on the level of the atlantean folklore, which for me is even more evident clue backed by Plato


its sadly but many People are trying to mix these two theories as one like aryans from atlantis, and why, this was nazi narrative for ubermenshen origin-utopia which was resting on the past theosophical momentum in europe, something that on the other side was rosencreutzer neopagan ideal drawn from the medieval catharian based on the egyptean mysteries, lets say the western european exceptionalism was evolving in new cloths after the the fall of Rome, some sort of search for new great identity after the ruined one ,  similar to patient on mortal bed trying to bypass his death with large adrenaline shot, and this became what became from that same rush for new european exceptionalism, ist so!?


eventually its not little thing to build upon Plato, theory stating that those aryans from atlantis are oldest knowledgeable and strongest human civilization whose descendants are some western europeans today, its almost like saying coz some neanderthal went in some cave - if you visit that cave you are becoming neanderthal, conclusion,  its funny how some elites need big pedigrees for big stunts like those behind the nazi nwo project!


typos edit!


Edited by Pelagon - 13 Aug 2020 at 12:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2020 at 11:11

The use of "Aryan" as a synonym for Indo -European may occasionally appear in material that is based on historic scholarship. Thus, a 1989 article in Scientific AmericanColin Renfrew uses the term "Aryan" as a synonym for "Indo-European".[22]  
from Wiki Aryan Race.  I have read Renfrew, i have also studied Attic Greek in which Indo-European Linguistics has been discussed,
In general Aryan and the wilder associations with the term have been debunked and dismissed, Indo-European is the preferred term 
these days, the term based on linguistic family relationships between most European languages, Farsi and the Indian subfamily of 
languages.  Various ways that language "evolves" were first noted by British in India, for example phonological leveling.  An example 
of phonological leveling is the change from a harsh "C' in Roman ('K'aeser) to a ch in Italian to a soft c, English 'Caesar.'

I don't know who put a bee in your bonnet, V, about me citing sources, the fact that Ireland (Eire) and Iran both originate from Aryan 
should be obvious, but in any case I heard it on National Public Radio in the eighties.  There was a poem that they traced
from one language to the other.  Very cool, but I don't think that me telling you my source will help you very much. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 2020 at 16:59
comparing Ireland and Iran as same is like comparison of Zeland and Zen, as I said earlier this theory of indo-european stem of languages altho mainstream has big holes which is bringing her to level of hypothesis and not theory, I am still amused how come this european eugenic concept produced such lore that is stil main linguistic footing even nowadays, simply max mullers ridiculous spill has become main ingredient, as you said Franciscosan still Aryan equals Indoeuropean what was not just contexts of its time in the eve of romanticism [1] but also prevalent linguistic theory, in India maybe with lesser and lesser foot [2][2][2]  if this indo-european trend stays further like this there is risk some later eu-genic hegemon in eventual 4-th reich rush to awake again exceptional racial motives that earlier were behind this colonizing concept which definitely popup as concern even for the Monotheism coz its linked to the zoroastrian dualism that in its eve of trending was connected to it probably through some sort if not masonic then theosophic vibes, coz this is not the right Thread for this statement of mine to be thoroughly elaborated so I'll leave just a hint [3

Nuke we have astrayed from the prime question in this topic a lot, sorry its my fault when while wanted to point that not only that there is vacuum in the iron age and the vedic aryans but also there is vacuum in the linguistic indo-european theory and also to pinpoint what is the root to all this, I'll stop in this post with these digressions so we could get back to the main question, as I am concerned, if someone wants to debate further on all my above digressions I'll suggest to quote me in other specific thread with related topic ...

ABOUT The Iron Age and Aryans, if there is problem around the dating of Vedas were is the first mention of the existence of Aryans, and some say that there is eg. the first second footnote above, then maybe this correlation as Iron Aryans could be drawn as correct ... is this true I wont step in such discussion coz I am only knowledgeable in the indo-european spin of the mainstream history, and with more and more room in my head about the notion that there is an massive corruption of facts by all sorts of propaganda or eventually mistakes by the Historians (process that nowadays has pandemic proportions) I would not rule out at first glance even such option eg. some Black Sea People to have had brought the Iron to the Middle East and further to Egypt but also as far till India, I'll say even maybe those were the Argonauts that had have the possession of the Golden Fleece i.e. that fleece actually was the Iron ...  

 


Edited by Pelagon - 13 Aug 2020 at 17:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Novosedoff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2020 at 01:07
I totally agree with the above note that it could have been Aryans borrowing technologies from Indians, not the opposite. We somehow got used to the situation that almost 50% of world exports originate in Europe (most of it stays in Europe though). But who knows what was the reality back 3-4 thousand years ago.

In India they have the Iron pillar of Delhi, which is attributed to Chandragupta II and was erected in 4-5 centuries AD. The interesting thing is that the pillar seems to have unbelievably high resistance to corrosion, which is thought to be barely achievable back at the time of 2 thousand years ago. This proves the progress of Indian smelting as evident. 




Edited by Novosedoff - 14 Aug 2020 at 03:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2020 at 07:33
indo-aryans © by current findings its impossible this process to have began in India, its obvious from the Vedas that aryans have come to India, there is evidence that since the 5k BC in middle east there was use of iron tools which iron was byproduct from the copper smelting ... but wait read the last sentence of last parahraph in this post ...

Quote  Between 1800 and 1500 BC smelted iron occurred also in India and China, but for a very long time the material was extremely rare.

~1600 BC the Hittites were the first one to develop a method for smelting iron effectively. A few centuries long this knowledge, and the fact that the developers keep the knowledge a secret, supported the strong position of the Hittite culture in the near east. ~1200 BC neighboring cultures also learned the smelting process and the technique spread fast throughout Europe and Asia, thereby eliminating the economic and cultural predominance of the Hittites.


still who can tell for sure how the neolithic groups have migrated and where actually was the first use of iron!? at end of the little ice age 12k years ago [1] obviously humans were active, migrating around the continents, did they settle first in southern europe or northern africa or in the middle east or were dispersed all around the world in indo-china but also americas its not so important but have they advanced culture it is, for now oldest such city is the neolithic stpne settlement from Gobekli Tepe 10k BC [2] in India stil there is officially not such site, tho there are indications that there are similarly neolithic sites there too now submerged under water supposedly just like those around the coast of Japan, which should be true if we take the hypothesis about the great flood and all the myth that exist about it [3] for what such end of the last little ice age surely  have had contributed to the rise of the sea levels, and maybe if there are underwater archaeological excavation [4] maybe if there is found any iron tools or weapons we can argue about iron spread from India upward ...

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