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The Kingdom of Champa and Aceh

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Po-Binnasaur View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Nov 2012 at 23:28
I know this subject was covered in the Archives but id like to bring it up again, I find it very interesting that the Kingdom of Champa is barely covered yet it is one of the oldest kingdoms in SEA, one thing i am still wondering about is where did the chams come from? I read before in a article from the university of Singapore that they came from the island of Borneo, while when i went to visit my cham relatives in Phan Rang (Panduranga) we went to visit the My Son ruins and the guide had said that the Cham people came from Java (but he also said some inaccurate things like Champa collapsed from plague and civil war) , When i went to ask my great-grandfather who is recognized among the chams in Phan Rang and other coastal provinces and among Chams in Washington and California as a descendant of Po Rome's bloodline, he said "we Chams came from somewhere in Indonesia or Malaysia" but he also said he's not sure, and the Cham legend says that we came from the mountains where Lady Po-Nagar came from in the central highlands of Vietnam.

After trying to do more research I am still lost, however i did learn that the Utsuls on Hainan Island are cham as they speak a Cham Hainan dialect (tsat) which is Austronesian but they are probably refugees from when the kingdom fell, I also read a Cham tale in Cham Sanskrit about a prince who left Champa and married the daughter of some sort of village chief and started the Kingdom of Aceh but im not sure if thats accurate. 
I guess my real question is "Where did the Chams and Aceh's come from?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pinguin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Nov 2012 at 03:14
I have no idea and I can't answer your question. However, the topic fascinates me, so I hope you get the answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 05:39
I was intrigued enough to do some on line research and unfortunately, there is a severe lack of sourced material out there on the web. What i have found though,  pretty much echoes the knowledge you already had kindly shared.

 However, i did come across an interesting web blog run by a person from New Zealand that seems to give light to the lack of any sourced material out there, as he says in his post, it might be ground breaking... I don't know, but here it is:

Who are the Cham People: An unauthorized history of Champa

Several parts in the post caught my eye, besides being warred upon and driven from their lands. First this:

The Cham were driven from their vast homelands over centuries of war with the Vietnamese and Cambodians. The Vietnamese drove the Cham south, and Angkor drove them east. By the 1800s the Cham were reduced to a small vassal state in what is now Ninh Thuan and Binh Thuan Provinces (known as the southern kingdom of Panduranga to the Cham).

In 1832, Vietnamese Emperor Minh Mang of the Nguyen Dynasty perpetrated a brutal holocaust of the Cham and finally stripped them of all autonomy.

The second thing that caught my eye:

Unfortunately, little is written about the Cham in Vietnam history books or travel media (domestic or international), due to both a rather profound ignorance of the history of Vietnam and a prevailing racist attitude among both the Vietnamese and perhaps some of the very scholars who have studied them.

The third thing:

Even contemporary scholarship, which focuses on temple ruins, statuary, ancient steles and the antiquated writings of neighbouring civilizations, rarely, if ever consults the holy men and intellectuals of the living Cham community, which possesses a wealth of ignored written documents and oral histories.
Sadly this has perhaps led to a needlessly fragmented and misunderstood concept of Cham history and identity. The fact that the communist government has deliberately destroyed or contributed to the destruction of so many Cham temples since 're-unification' (I know of 7 such recently-destroyed ancient temple complexes in my own province of Binh Thuan alone) only compounds the problem. Certainly Hanoi’s efforts to shield minorities from interaction with foreigners has also greatly inhibited a holistic study of the Cham people.

I don't know if this helps, but i do hope it does.





Edited by Panther - 26 Nov 2012 at 05:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Po-Binnasaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 06:19
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

I was intrigued enough to do some on line research and unfortunately, there is a severe lack of sourced material out there on the web. What i have found though,  pretty much echoes the knowledge you already had kindly shared.

 However, i did come across an interesting web blog run by a person from New Zealand that seems to give light to the lack of any sourced material out there, as he says in his post, it might be ground breaking... I don't know, but here it is:

Who are the Cham People: An unauthorized history of Champa

Several parts in the post caught my eye, besides being warred upon and driven from their lands. First this:

The Cham were driven from their vast homelands over centuries of war with the Vietnamese and Cambodians. The Vietnamese drove the Cham south, and Angkor drove them east. By the 1800s the Cham were reduced to a small vassal state in what is now Ninh Thuan and Binh Thuan Provinces (known as the southern kingdom of Panduranga to the Cham).

In 1832, Vietnamese Emperor Minh Mang of the Nguyen Dynasty perpetrated a brutal holocaust of the Cham and finally stripped them of all autonomy.

The second thing that caught my eye:

Unfortunately, little is written about the Cham in Vietnam history books or travel media (domestic or international), due to both a rather profound ignorance of the history of Vietnam and a prevailing racist attitude among both the Vietnamese and perhaps some of the very scholars who have studied them.

The third thing:

Even contemporary scholarship, which focuses on temple ruins, statuary, ancient steles and the antiquated writings of neighbouring civilizations, rarely, if ever consults the holy men and intellectuals of the living Cham community, which possesses a wealth of ignored written documents and oral histories.
Sadly this has perhaps led to a needlessly fragmented and misunderstood concept of Cham history and identity. The fact that the communist government has deliberately destroyed or contributed to the destruction of so many Cham temples since 're-unification' (I know of 7 such recently-destroyed ancient temple complexes in my own province of Binh Thuan alone) only compounds the problem. Certainly Hanoi’s efforts to shield minorities from interaction with foreigners has also greatly inhibited a holistic study of the Cham people.

I don't know if this helps, but i do hope it does.




What a strange coincidence! I actually know this man Adam bray, he frequented my family's village of Phan Rang (Panduranga) where we still hold power over the Cham people there, he actually went there to learn how to speak and read and write in Cham. Anyways i asked my great-grandpa about people studying the Cham people and he said before when there was North and South Vietnam a small group of Italian and French archaeologist, anthropologist, and linguists came to the village and asked my great-grandfather for permission to document some of our old cham relics we have kept like an old book written on strips of wood sewed together from the 14th century from the Po-madapura which is a record keeping room, Adam also asked to see the relic but sadly it was destroyed during the Vietnam war.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 06:33
One other thing, during my online research, the island of Borneo is mentioned a lot. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 06:40
Originally posted by Po-Binnasaur Po-Binnasaur wrote:



What a strange coincidence! I actually know this man Adam bray, he frequented my family's village of Phan Rang (Panduranga) where we still hold power over the Cham people there, he actually went there to learn how to speak and read and write in Cham. Anyways i asked my great-grandpa about people studying the Cham people and he said before when there was North and South Vietnam a small group of Italian and French archaeologist, anthropologist, and linguists came to the village and asked my great-grandfather for permission to document some of our old cham relics we have kept like an old book written on strips of wood sewed together from the 14th century from the Po-madapura which is a record keeping room, Adam also asked to see the relic but sadly it was destroyed during the Vietnam war.


Quite the coincidence. I noticed something in the last sentence to your paragraph, is there a way for them to store the Cham records and keep them safe from being lost or destroyed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Po-Binnasaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 06:43
I'm reading again and it's basically saying the Chams came from somewhere in Indonesia or Malaysia, but what i don't get is our languages are so different even though there somewhat similar when i speak Cham in public im often getting confused for some southern Chinese dialect, or laotian, or Thai but not once has anyone said it sounds anything like Bhasa Indonesia or malay, however if you look at out words carefully its spelled the same with the same meaning but it sounds completely different when spoken.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Po-Binnasaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 06:45


Quite the coincidence. I noticed something in the last sentence to your paragraph, is there a way for them to store the Cham records and keep them safe from being lost or destroyed?
[/QUOTE]
Well in our village the Bloodline of Po-Rome the last royal family keeps the record in the po-madapura which is a special place in the back of the home it looks like a shack but it holds relics like ancient books, royal clothing, old gold figures, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 06:58
Originally posted by Po-Binnasaur Po-Binnasaur wrote:

I'm reading again and it's basically saying the Chams came from somewhere in Indonesia or Malaysia, but what i don't get is our languages are so different even though there somewhat similar when i speak Cham in public im often getting confused for some southern Chinese dialect, or laotian, or Thai but not once has anyone said it sounds anything like Bhasa Indonesia or malay, however if you look at out words carefully its spelled the same with the same meaning but it sounds completely different when spoken.


I wished i could help you here but i am afraid i can't. I am not a linguist and i would probably cause you more confusion then be of any help to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 18:29
Regarding the Cham, much of the study on the Cham peoples were done by the French School of the Far East (Ecole Francaise d'Extreme Orient) which has a link here:  http://www.efeo.fr/base.php?code=224

Note that they are still studying the Cham People.

Now, that said, some points: From my readings there was no Cham Kingdom per se. There were five Cham Kingdoms which some refer to as a Cham Empire. It is my impression that each of those Cham kingdoms claimed descent from some Indian prince who settled among them. Of course, since the names of the Cham kingdoms match that of areas in India, it is even possible that the various settlements founded along the central Indochinese coast were transplanted from somewhere in what today is Malaysia and Indonesia, bringing foundation legends going back to India. Since the ethnic and cultural make-up of those two Malay countries is so close, it is not an either or, but rather this and that situation. The founders of the various Chjam kingdoms could have come from places in both, considering that they were part and parcel of the most widely spread ethnic sea-faring group of pre and early modern times. (the Polynesians, of whom the Malay-Polynesians / Austronesians are a branch).

Also, don't rule out the Philippines, or even Taiwan, or even some of the tribal peoples who later developed into the Vietnamese.

By the way, the Lam Dong museum (Dalat) has a small exhibition on items taken from a 7th Century A.D. Hindu temple unearthed near Bao Loc a few years ago. Presuming that such is Cham, it shows that the Cham inhabited more than the coasts of Indochina. Some ethnographers considered the Jarai, Raglai, and Rhade as "upland Cham", though I share the belief that the Cham likely entered from the sea, which would tie in with Rhade and Jarai accounts of their origin.

In closing, don't narrow your focus of study to that of a Cham looking out of the known Champa (which would not have included Bao Loc), but rather as a member of the Malay or Malayo-Polynesian world looking in from the seas that carried them from Easter Island to Madagascar, and from Malaysia and Indonesia as far north as Taiwan, and likely Cheju-do island in the Yellow Sea. Like the Vietnamese, you borrowed a culture. Chinese n their case, Indian in yours.  Look for th parallels in Cham legends, Jarai, Rhade, and Raglai legends, and the legends and practices of the maalay-polynesian peoples,m to include tribal pratices. You may find that the there were malay-polynesian peoples resident in Indochina who preceded "the Cham" and became "Cham" by adopting certain cultuiral practices from Indian and Indianized Malay states that distinguished them from their former tribal cousins. 


Edited by lirelou - 26 Nov 2012 at 18:32
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Po-Binnasaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Nov 2012 at 23:09
I remember hearing the theory about austronesian people coming from Taiwan due to a linguistic study on the Formosan languages, however many of the Raglai people, Hre, and Jarai have regarded the Chams as cousins, i remember going with my grandfather to Po'kla tau village in the central highlands to visit the Raglai people and many of there words where similar, another study was the Chams coming from the highland people due to the original Cham legend of Po-Nagar (though a legend).
Also, i spoke with my grandfather and he said that that Chams where divided into city-states as in Indrapura, vijiya and panduranga the last city-state to fall. He said the only time they know of based on the madapura (records) of Cham unity was in the reign on king Che Bonga (the red king in vietnamese) called king Po-Binnasaur in Cham.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 16:49
Po Binnasaur, do you have a copy of Ngo Van Doanh's "Le Hoi Chuan Mua: Cua Nguoi Cham" which was published by the Nha Xuat Ban Tre back in 2005? I assume you read VIetnamese. I cannot do so with ease, and have to rely upon dictionaries to plod through.

If you haven't a copy, I'd be glad to send you mine to read, with the understanding that you'll mail it back when finished. If you are interested, send me a private message with your mailing address.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Po-Binnasaur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 21:48
Ah yes i already have read "Le hoi chuan mua: cua ngoi Cham" i actually have the copy on my desk right now. 
regarding Cham speaking Vietnamese not all of us speak Vietnamese, it depends on what part of Vietnam your family is from, generally most Cham can speak Vietnamese, Khmer, sometime French, some Cham dialect, Bahasa Malay, and sometime Raglai. Chams are famous for being very multi-lingual people.

Also if you can somewhat read Vietnamese i recommend you read "Bangsa Champa" by Dohamide Dorohiem published in 2004, he is a great friend of my grandfather and he really talks about the Cham's as a whole and in separate. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 2012 at 10:27
If the Cham came from Malaysia/Indonesia, are they related to the Malays, or the Orang Asli?

hmm, I notice that the Cham word for "Cham people" is Orang Campa and they live in Kampung Cham provence in Cambodia. Those are definitely malay words.

Edited by Omar al Hashim - 12 Dec 2012 at 10:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2012 at 10:11
Originally posted by Po-Binnasaur Po-Binnasaur wrote:

I'm reading again and it's basically saying the Chams came from somewhere in Indonesia or Malaysia, but what i don't get is our languages are so different even though there somewhat similar when i speak Cham in public im often getting confused for some southern Chinese dialect, or laotian, or Thai but not once has anyone said it sounds anything like Bhasa Indonesia or malay, however if you look at out words carefully its spelled the same with the same meaning but it sounds completely different when spoken.
 
Why is that so surprising? Chams lived in a close "neighborhood" of Mon-Khmeric languages for milleniums and vocabularly and pronouncation of Cham bear extremely heavy influence of the regional tongues. This is not surprising at all and you can see similar pattern in many places (i.e. when genetically unrelated languages get to influence each other). Compare, for example, to the influence of Indic languages at Dravidian languages in India. Both groups genetically are complitely different, yet Dravidian languages of India have a huge ammount of Indoeuropean vocabularly and similar pronouncation...
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