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The last 'acceptable' prejudice

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    Posted: 13 Dec 2009 at 23:53
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/13/death-penalty-uganda-homosexuals

Every other group on the planet would be demanding air time on all western media and the outcry would grip streets. Yet with homosexuals there is a degree of resignation, sort of like 'we expected this from the Africans anyway'. It is indeed the one last acceptable prejudice of the western world, despite all our pontificating.

Why hasn't the Pope spoken out?
Why hasn't the Anglican Archbishop?
Why have only a handful of American evangelics given only a qualified denunciation?

An entire group of people are going to be wiped out within the next couple of years - especially if they really mean it and introduce the death penalty for homosexuality. I suppose holocausts are ok if it happens to those annoying, irritating and sick homosexuals, eh?

(Sarcasm)


Edited by Parnell - 13 Dec 2009 at 23:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carcharodon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 00:32
Many Christians here in the west do not like homosexuals or homosexuality (they many times consider it a sin) so maybe not so many of them will speak up for the gays in Africa (most people here do not care so much about Africa anyway).

Also in some muslim countries gays are disliked and sometimes persecuted (as in Iran) with death penalties or other hash punishments.

Also in a highly secularized society as Sweden hate crimes against gays do occur (not sanctioned by the authorities though). Most of those crimes are committed by people who do not perceive themselves as especially religious.





Edited by Carcharodon - 14 Dec 2009 at 00:38
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If I am not mistaken, Uganda will now join the ranks of the 7 or 8 Muslim countries which also consider homosexuality a crime punishable by death. It will be the first predominantly Christian country to make it a death penalty crime in some decades. Here we have a prime example of how humanity's moral development can go into retrograde.

And frankly if you want to go and categorise this country as barbaric, then damn well do so. It is barbaric, it is shameful and if there is one thing which succeeds where genetic Darwinists failed at proving that some cultures are simply inferior to others, then it is this backward piece of legislation. Uganda deserves the criticism you wish to heap on it, including calling it an inferior nation led by backward savages. We have a saying in this country, you call a spade a spade.

And the pernicious Christian evangelical sects also have a lot to answer for. While conservatives in the US crow about the achievements of such hate mongers as Jerry Falwell, it is these same ideological/spiritual imperialists who have gone to every continent on the planet in attempts to prey on the weak minded, weak willed and otherwise stupid individuals in every society in an effort to convert as many of them as possible to their own brand of sick corporate style faux spirituality. Shame on them.

Resignation is one way of putting it, honestly there is little one can do in this situation. If Uganda wishes to turn itself into a backwards, intolerant theocracy which is shunned by the developed world then they are free to do so. But the forward moral progress of humanity will continue, and if this law passes then one day that nation will look back on it with a sense of shame and regret.


Edited by Constantine XI - 14 Dec 2009 at 00:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 05:36
Uganda could, in theory, be expelled from the Commonwealth. Morality has more to do with membership of the Commonwealth than other organisations. It also brings some pressure to bear, especially on the country's leaders, though one might see some other African countries go with it I suppose.  
 
It's going to be interesting next year to see how the question of readmitting Zimbabwe may affect the internal politics of that country, and what part the other African members play in that.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 05:54
My answer to your three questions is that they're all militant homophobes at heart.

Quote annoying, irritating and sick homosexuals, eh?


Interesting, this makes me think of gay mens stereotypes and for all intents and purposes the majority of gay men I have met (whom I have known to be gay!) have manifested it in one way or the other.  Whether it is being perverted, obnoxious, vain or superficial.  Out of tens of gay acquaintances I only actually like and would call 3 my friends simply because I can have a conversation with them without feeling awkward because they don't manifest issues in the gay stereotype very often.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 16:26
Funny how you call the thread the last acceptable prejudice when there are in fact multiple prejudices at work here, and displayed in the thread.

If there's lack of coverage here it might be because in a weird way the african prejudice cancelled with the gay prejudice. And, most importantly no-one had a pre-existing reason to have a propaganda campaign against Uganda.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 16:35
Originally posted by CXI CXI wrote:

If I am not mistaken, Uganda will now join the ranks of the 7 or 8 Muslim countries which also consider homosexuality a crime punishable by death. It will be the first predominantly Christian country to make it a death penalty crime in some decades. Here we have a prime example of how humanity's moral development can go into retrograde.

According to Parnells link, 37 African countries alone consider homosexuality a capital offence. 80 countries in the world consider it a criminal offence.
Originally posted by gcle gcle wrote:

Uganda could, in theory, be expelled from the Commonwealth. Morality has more to do with membership of the Commonwealth than other organisations. It also brings some pressure to bear, especially on the country's leaders, though one might see some other African countries go with it I suppose. 

Again according to the guardian article, 40 commonwealth countries criminalise homosexuality.
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Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Interesting, this makes me think of gay mens stereotypes and for all intents and purposes the majority of gay men I have met (whom I have known to be gay!) have manifested it in one way or the other.  Whether it is being perverted, obnoxious, vain or superficial.  Out of tens of gay acquaintances I only actually like and would call 3 my friends simply because I can have a conversation with them without feeling awkward because they don't manifest issues in the gay stereotype very often.


Hi Zagros, thanks for contributing, I found what you have to say interesting and worthy of attention.

I think one of the highest levels of development any sub-culture can develop is to be self critical. One cannot improve oneself, or one's community, without first taking a hard nosed critical approach to the flaws that they and their society embodies. I have often done so with the gay community in my own country.

I can fully relate to you feeling put off by some of the vacuous, vapid, egocentric members of the gay community. I have also dealt with them. They can often be immature, annoying, shallow and egotistical. I consider that this problem is not a result of being homosexual per se, but rather that the gay social scene itself (which we call the scene) is really a poor environment for the development of a well rounded and healthy human being.

The gay community itself is very young. As gays have for a majority of their history in the western part of the Old World been mercilessly brutalised thanks to the influence of Abrahamic religions, there was little opportunity to form a sense of community, ideology, traditions and ethics. When gays were tolerated (pre-Abraham proselytising), the idea of a gay community was redundant. As much as the idea of forming a community for people with brown hair, or people over 5 ft 10 inches in height; being inclined towards homosexuality and forming a community about it was simply not necessary. Being a common physiological trait which is abundant in a large minority of the population, and exclusive in a substantial minority of the population, there was never any need to form a community.

With the expansion of the deeply intolerant Hebrew religion into a polytheistic form, this suddenly and dramatically changed. Persecution and brutality of the most 'medieval' kind resulted, and so a substantial minority (6-8%) were driven to conceal an innocuous and natural part of their physiology for fear of death by the most common means employed, death by burning alive.

It took hundreds of years of development from a primitive feudal/agrarian society into a more advanced one, with philosophical developments that finally weakened the power of the church, to finally begin to bring an end to the needless and barbaric persecution. Homosexuality has been a criminalised offence in many countries, and has only recently been repealed in the most civilised in the present day.

As such the formation of gay communities in some countries is still very recent. And barely in the wake of its liberation it had to suffer the awful human death toll of one of the worst viruses in modern history. As an infant community, still struggling with a terrible past and great challenges, there is a great deal it needs to overcome.

Without centuries to develop their ethics, traditions, sense of community and other facets of dignity - the gay community of today is young, immature and in a poor position to set an example to its members. But it will in time improve, no doubt. Today many in the community idolise the frivolous, materialistic. They love the parties and the extravegant indulgences.

But while this community is not conducive to high ethics and does need reform, it can and will improve with the passage of time. Overlooked also, by both homophobes and the immature members of the gay community themselves, are the vast numbers of homosexuals who have led exemplary lives and contributed vastly to the welfare of the human race as the centuries have passed. If I had a spare day or two I would list them for you, though I am certain that as an educated person you already have a good understanding of this subject matter. Harvey Milk, who lost his life in the line of serving his community faithfully (of whatever sexual orientation), in modern times - or Hadrian, the superb Roman Emperor whose adoration of Antinous led him to build a monumental city to him which eclipses even such tributes of love as the Taj Mahal. These are merely two prominent of many examples.

So, while I do understand (and share) your disdain for people who embrace a vacuous and egotistical way of life, I do hope that as educated human beings we can look past these personality flaws of the some in order to recognise the worth and value of the many as people, whatever their minor physiological traits. And that with time this community will develop higher ethical standards.

Who knows, maybe there is even hope for the brawling, overweight, heavy drinking, irresponsible deadbeat father class of heterosexuals who lag behind us and are so common in this day and age.


Edited by Constantine XI - 14 Dec 2009 at 17:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 17:20
Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:


According to Parnells link, 37 African countries alone consider homosexuality a capital offence. 80 countries in the world consider it a criminal offence.


I said 7-8 countries consider it a death penalty crime, not a capital offence. Capital offence and death penalty offence are not automatically synonymous.

Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

Funny how you call the thread the last acceptable prejudice when there are in fact multiple prejudices at work here, and displayed in the thread.


Please list these prejudices so they can be addressed, I would love to be in on the joke.

Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

If there's lack of coverage here it might be because in a weird way the african prejudice cancelled with the gay prejudice. And, most importantly no-one had a pre-existing reason to have a propaganda campaign against Uganda.


Or the fact Uganda is a small and geo-politically unimportant country. Or the fact certain right wing groups in the west are quite happy with this development and see no need to make a fuss over it. Or the fact that things going drastically wrong in an African country is so common that no one considers it news, anymore than people dying of alcohol posioning in the former USSR.
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Not to make light of the issue of this thread, but in an ironic twilight-zone-sort-of-twist, at least fundamentalist Christians and Muslims can state quite publicly by actually agreeing on something without feeling the need too blowing each other (pardon the pun) away or shouting death threats at one another... Or so says the article towards the end.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 18:12
Originally posted by CXI CXI wrote:


I said 7-8 countries consider it a death penalty crime, not a capital offence. Capital offence and death penalty offence are not automatically synonymous.

I didn't actually know that, and both wiki and the legal dictionary say or imply they are. What's a capital offence otherwise? Life Imprisionment? If so then my point about the number of country remains valid, since Life Imprisionment is just as stupid for homosexuality as the death penalty.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/capital+offense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment
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Please list these prejudices so they can be addressed, I would love to be in on the joke.

First and obviously, anti homosexual prejudice.
Secondly, anti-African prejudice "Everybody knows bad things happen in Africa"
Thirdly, anti-European-homosexual prejudice "homosexuality is because of gay loving europe influence"
Forthly, anti-Christian prejudice "we can expect religious Christians to be anti-gay"
Fifthly, anti-Muslim prejudice "we could've expected this from a muslim country but Uganda?!"
Sixthly, anti-American prejudice "I bet the bible bashers influenced Uganda!"

Those seem to be the main ones related to the thread or issue. There could be a couple more around too.

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Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Not to make light of the issue of this thread, but in an ironic twilight-zone-sort-of-twist, at least fundamentalist Christians and Muslims can state quite publicly by actually agreeing on something without feeling the need too blowing each other (pardon the pun) away or shouting death threats at one another... Or so says the article towards the end.



Aren't we one to find a silver lining in the most obscure of places Wink

No doubt one of those sectarian groups can use their newly acquired knowledge of vigilanteism, mob rule, judicial murder, paranoid intolerance and the like to strike down their religious enemies once the homosexuals are all killed. That way, everyone will at last be at peace in a perfectly conformed and homogeneous society.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 18:15
Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

Not to make light of the issue of this thread, but in an ironic twilight-zone-sort-of-twist, at least fundamentalist Christians and Muslims can state quite publicly by actually agreeing on something without feeling the need too blowing each other (pardon the pun) away or shouting death threats at one another... Or so says the article towards the end.

Actually they agree on alot of things. Jews too. And they know it most of the time.
I've often thought that US Southerners and Pakistanis have a lot in common actually!


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 14 Dec 2009 at 18:16
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Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

I didn't actually know that, and both wiki and the legal dictionary say or imply they are. What's a capital offence otherwise? Life Imprisionment? If so then my point about the number of country remains valid, since Life Imprisionment is just as stupid for homosexuality as the death penalty.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/capital+offense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment


Quite correct. I thought a capital offence may have meant severe in the extreme, rather than simply the death penalty. Mea culpa.

However, my earlier point that it is a death penalty offence in 7-8 countries is still correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory

Your claim that it is a capital offence in 37 countries is incorrect. The article claims it is a crime in 37 countries, which is substantially different from being a capital offence (afterall, it was a crime in Tasmania until a decade ago but one which was never prosecuted around that time).

Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

First and obviously, anti homosexual prejudice.


What do you mean exactly?

Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

Secondly, anti-African prejudice "Everybody knows bad things happen in Africa"


A correct generalisation though, the quality of life in just about every area imaginable lags behind the rest of the world.

Anyway it wasn't my prejudice, I simply posited that the issue wouldn't receive as much attention from the general public because they had this perception (which is largely correct). So the general public does perceive crisis in Africa as typical.

Quote Thirdly, anti-European-homosexual prejudice "homosexuality is because of gay loving europe influence"


I see that in quotes in the article, but not by any members in this thread.

Quote Forthly, anti-Christian prejudice "we can expect religious Christians to be anti-gay"


No one said that, so you are unfairly paraphrasing. Evangelicals were targeted, and rightly so, but not Christians at large.

Quote Fifthly, anti-Muslim prejudice "we could've expected this from a muslim country but Uganda?!"


No one said that, or even implied it. I simply remarked that Uganda is the first non-Muslim country of this century to make homosexuality a capital crime. And I am totally correct.

Honestly though, considering all capital punishment of homosexual countries are at present Muslim countries, saying that there is a correlation between Muslim communities and the use of the death penalty on homosexuals would not be prejudiced at all, it would be a totally impartial fact.

So there is no anti-Muslim prejudice there at all.

Originally posted by Omar Omar wrote:

Sixthly, anti-American prejudice "I bet the bible bashers influenced Uganda!"


You again confuse condemnation of evangelical policies with prejudice against another group. I didn't condemn America, nor did any other AE member here. Just as I did not condemn Christians, nor do I have any wish to do so. I simply condemned the pernicious influence of the evangelical movement within Africa, which does indeed have a long history of promoting harmful attitudes (e.g. HIV and contraception).

Quote Those seem to be the main ones related to the thread or issue. There could be a couple more around too.


Do try and identify them.


Edited by Constantine XI - 14 Dec 2009 at 18:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 21:06
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by CXI CXI wrote:


I said 7-8 countries consider it a death penalty crime, not a capital offence. Capital offence and death penalty offence are not automatically synonymous.

I didn't actually know that, and both wiki and the legal dictionary say or imply they are. What's a capital offence otherwise? Life Imprisionment? If so then my point about the number of country remains valid, since Life Imprisionment is just as stupid for homosexuality as the death penalty.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/capital+offense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment
Quote
Please list these prejudices so they can be addressed, I would love to be in on the joke.

First and obviously, anti homosexual prejudice.
Secondly, anti-African prejudice "Everybody knows bad things happen in Africa"
Thirdly, anti-European-homosexual prejudice "homosexuality is because of gay loving europe influence"
Forthly, anti-Christian prejudice "we can expect religious Christians to be anti-gay"
Fifthly, anti-Muslim prejudice "we could've expected this from a muslim country but Uganda?!"
Sixthly, anti-American prejudice "I bet the bible bashers influenced Uganda!"

Those seem to be the main ones related to the thread or issue. There could be a couple more around too.



What are you, the son of God? Are you not guilty of prejudice even in passing? Making such a big and elaborate deal about it seems to me a sure way of stating aloud that you've got a bigotry complex all of you're own. I was just stating what 90% of people are thinking about this travesty of human nature, and I'm more than prepared to condemn it utterly as the manifestations of what can only be described as a savage and barbrous culture. People get lost in political correctness and bogus notions of post colonialist white imperialism or some other buzzword, but the reality is that there is no such thing as cultural relativism. An atrocity is an atrocity. Would it be better if the British Empire allowed the practise of Sati to continue in India? After all, that was an interference in an organic culture, we can't be having that now!


Edited by Parnell - 14 Dec 2009 at 21:07
http://xkcd.com/15/



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 21:07
Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:

Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

Interesting, this makes me think of gay mens stereotypes and for all intents and purposes the majority of gay men I have met (whom I have known to be gay!) have manifested it in one way or the other.  Whether it is being perverted, obnoxious, vain or superficial.  Out of tens of gay acquaintances I only actually like and would call 3 my friends simply because I can have a conversation with them without feeling awkward because they don't manifest issues in the gay stereotype very often.


Hi Zagros, thanks for contributing, I found what you have to say interesting and worthy of attention.

I think one of the highest levels of development any sub-culture can develop is to be self critical. One cannot improve oneself, or one's community, without first taking a hard nosed critical approach to the flaws that they and their society embodies. I have often done so with the gay community in my own country.

I can fully relate to you feeling put off by some of the vacuous, vapid, egocentric members of the gay community. I have also dealt with them. They can often be immature, annoying, shallow and egotistical. I consider that this problem is not a result of being homosexual per se, but rather that the gay social scene itself (which we call the scene) is really a poor environment for the development of a well rounded and healthy human being.

The gay community itself is very young. As gays have for a majority of their history in the western part of the Old World been mercilessly brutalised thanks to the influence of Abrahamic religions, there was little opportunity to form a sense of community, ideology, traditions and ethics. When gays were tolerated (pre-Abraham proselytising), the idea of a gay community was redundant. As much as the idea of forming a community for people with brown hair, or people over 5 ft 10 inches in height; being inclined towards homosexuality and forming a community about it was simply not necessary. Being a common physiological trait which is abundant in a large minority of the population, and exclusive in a substantial minority of the population, there was never any need to form a community.

With the expansion of the deeply intolerant Hebrew religion into a polytheistic form, this suddenly and dramatically changed. Persecution and brutality of the most 'medieval' kind resulted, and so a substantial minority (6-8%) were driven to conceal an innocuous and natural part of their physiology for fear of death by the most common means employed, death by burning alive.

It took hundreds of years of development from a primitive feudal/agrarian society into a more advanced one, with philosophical developments that finally weakened the power of the church, to finally begin to bring an end to the needless and barbaric persecution. Homosexuality has been a criminalised offence in many countries, and has only recently been repealed in the most civilised in the present day.

As such the formation of gay communities in some countries is still very recent. And barely in the wake of its liberation it had to suffer the awful human death toll of one of the worst viruses in modern history. As an infant community, still struggling with a terrible past and great challenges, there is a great deal it needs to overcome.

Without centuries to develop their ethics, traditions, sense of community and other facets of dignity - the gay community of today is young, immature and in a poor position to set an example to its members. But it will in time improve, no doubt. Today many in the community idolise the frivolous, materialistic. They love the parties and the extravegant indulgences.

But while this community is not conducive to high ethics and does need reform, it can and will improve with the passage of time. Overlooked also, by both homophobes and the immature members of the gay community themselves, are the vast numbers of homosexuals who have led exemplary lives and contributed vastly to the welfare of the human race as the centuries have passed. If I had a spare day or two I would list them for you, though I am certain that as an educated person you already have a good understanding of this subject matter. Harvey Milk, who lost his life in the line of serving his community faithfully (of whatever sexual orientation), in modern times - or Hadrian, the superb Roman Emperor whose adoration of Antinous led him to build a monumental city to him which eclipses even such tributes of love as the Taj Mahal. These are merely two prominent of many examples.

So, while I do understand (and share) your disdain for people who embrace a vacuous and egotistical way of life, I do hope that as educated human beings we can look past these personality flaws of the some in order to recognise the worth and value of the many as people, whatever their minor physiological traits. And that with time this community will develop higher ethical standards.

Who knows, maybe there is even hope for the brawling, overweight, heavy drinking, irresponsible deadbeat father class of heterosexuals who lag behind us and are so common in this day and age.


I do look past it as I am generally very objective and fair in how I interact with people at work, I was speaking from a personal perspective.  And I am aware that gay people aren't in any way inferior.  As it happens the gey people who I would call friends have a strong work ethic and also share my disdain to a large degree for individuals to whom those adjectives can be applied.
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Originally posted by Constantine XI Constantine XI wrote:


Aren't we one to find a silver lining in the most obscure of places Wink


After the past several decades of continuing doom and gloom that has dominated the news reports, the apocalyptic avalanche of Hollywood movies, in which.... the production of such has really picked up in the past several years and what with the world finally set too self destruct on December the 21st, 2012 (The wife and  I  22nd wedding anniversary of all days...) one tends too develop a knack for this. You know just too break this insane monotony!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Dec 2009 at 22:05
Originally posted by Zagros Zagros wrote:

As it happens the gey people who I would call friends have a strong work ethic and also share my disdain to a large degree for individuals to whom those adjectives can be applied.
I'd agree with that. Of the gay people I'm friendly with, I can only think of two who could be considered in any way part of the 'gay community' (and even their partners aren't). But that's more because they are part of the theatrical world than because they are homosexual.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2009 at 09:58
Originally posted by CXI CXI wrote:

However, my earlier point that it is a death penalty offence in 7-8 countries is still correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory

Your claim that it is a capital offence in 37 countries is incorrect. The article claims it is a crime in 37 countries, which is substantially different from being a capital offence

Originally posted by Guardian Guardian wrote:


Uganda is likely to pass a law within months that will make homosexuality a capital offence, joining 37 other countries in the continent where American evangelical Christian groups are increasingly spreading bigotry

But it does go on to say (and I didn't see this the first time);
Quote Burundi criminalised homosexuality in April this year, joining 37 other African nations where gay sex is already illegal.

Now if the first sentence is a lie, I won't be surprised, and I'm certainly not going to waste any effort defending the guardians journalism. So this issue should be closed.

Regards the prejudices comment. I was just pointing out the irony in the title. This doesn't warrent a scientific dissection. Take the joke, have a chuckle, and be the end of it. You're trying to dissect a body looking for which organ contains the soul, an utterly pointless exercise that only shows you completely missed the point! If there is any meaning in it your not going to find it that way.
Originally posted by Parnell Parnell wrote:


What are you, the son of God? Are you not guilty of prejudice even in passing? Making such a big and elaborate deal about it seems to me a sure way of stating aloud that you've got a bigotry complex all of you're own. I was just stating what 90% of people are thinking about this travesty of human nature, and I'm more than prepared to condemn it utterly as the manifestations of what can only be described as a savage and barbrous culture. People get lost in political correctness and bogus notions of post colonialist white imperialism or some other buzzword, but the reality is that there is no such thing as cultural relativism. An atrocity is an atrocity. Would it be better if the British Empire allowed the practise of Sati to continue in India? After all, that was an interference in an organic culture, we can't be having that now!

I'd love to bite back but honestly I don't have the faintest idea what your going on about. I'm not picking on you for saying it was the last acceptable prejudice. It was a witty title and I thought I'd have some fun with it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Dec 2009 at 11:29
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by CXI CXI wrote:

However, my earlier point that it is a death penalty offence in 7-8 countries is still correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory

Your claim that it is a capital offence in 37 countries is incorrect. The article claims it is a crime in 37 countries, which is substantially different from being a capital offence

Originally posted by Guardian Guardian wrote:


Uganda is likely to pass a law within months that will make homosexuality a capital offence, joining 37 other countries in the continent where American evangelical Christian groups are increasingly spreading bigotry

But it does go on to say (and I didn't see this the first time);
Quote Burundi criminalised homosexuality in April this year, joining 37 other African nations where gay sex is already illegal.

Now if the first sentence is a lie, I won't be surprised, and I'm certainly not going to waste any effort defending the guardians journalism. So this issue should be closed.

Regards the prejudices comment. I was just pointing out the irony in the title. This doesn't warrent a scientific dissection. Take the joke, have a chuckle, and be the end of it. You're trying to dissect a body looking for which organ contains the soul, an utterly pointless exercise that only shows you completely missed the point! If there is any meaning in it your not going to find it that way.
 


Yes, so the article claims that both Uganda and Burundi are criminalising homosexuality. But the key difference is that Uganda is making it a capital offence, while Burundi is not doing this as far as I can tell. This means that Uganda is indeed joining the 7 1/2 nations' club which punish homosexuality with execution.

I thought the title was fairly apt. It does draw attention to the fact that a very savage prejudice is harboured in some of the world's countries which manifests itself in the form of people being killed after having done no harm to society. It also draws attention to the fact this prejudice has tacit support among some in the developed world (i.e. some evangelical groups). But none of that seems to me 'ironic', nor chuckle worthy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 02:00
Many Islamic nations have a long way to go before they remove their laws convicted gays and sentencing them to capital punishment. First they need to understand that sexual harassment of any kind should also not be permissible. Yet women get the shaft everyday. That protecting men at the cost of women's rights is unacceptable. That punishing homosexuals with sodomy laws by incorporating capital punishment is unacceptable. Only enlightenment, education, literacy, and political activity can bring about needed change. The trouble with leaders of such countries is that they use religion (their own mixed up ignorant brand of sheriat) to concoct laws that are hazardous to social evolution.


Even the laws in my state are outdated since no body I know evers gets punished for them. Yet it still is a far cry from a capital offence.

Michigan's sodomy laws:

Statute

750.158 Crime against nature or sodomy; penalty. [M.S.A. 28.355]

Sec.158. Any person who shall commit the abominable and detestable crime against nature either with mankind or with any animal shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not more than 15 years, or if such person was at the time of the said offense a sexually delinquent person, may be punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for an indeterminate term, the minimum of which shall be 1 day and the maximum of which shall be life.

History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;--CL 1948, 750.158 ;--Am. 1952, Act 73, Eff. Sept. 18, 1952.

Former Law: See section 16 of Ch. 158 of R.S. 1846, being CL 1857, § 5871; CL 1871, § 7706; How., § 9292; CL 1897, § 11705; CL 1915, § 15479; CL 1929, § 16831; and Act 57 of 1923.

750.159 Emission need not be proved. [M.S.A. 28.356e]

Sec.159. In any prosecution for sodomy, it shall not be necessary to prove emission, and any sexual penetration, however slight, shall be deemed sufficient to complete the crime specified in the next preceding section.

History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;--CL 1948, 750.159 ;--Am. 1952, Act 73, Eff. Sept. 18, 1952.

750.338 Gross indecency; between male persons.

Sec. 338. Any male person who, in public or in private, commits or is a party to the commission of or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of any act of gross indecency with another male person shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or if such person was at the time of the said offense a sexually delinquent person, may be punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for an indeterminate term, the minimum of which shall be 1 day and the maximum of which shall be life.

750.338a Gross indecency; female persons.

Sec. 338a. Any female person who, in public or in private, commits or is a party to the commission of, or any person who procures or attempts to procure the commission by any female person of any act of gross indecency with another female person shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or if such person was at the time of the said offense a sexually delinquent person, may be punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for an indeterminate term, the minimum of which shall be 1 day and the maximum of which shall be life.

750.338b Gross indecency; between male and female persons.

Sec. 338b. Any male person who, in public or in private, commits or is a party to the commission of any act of gross indecency with a female person shall be guilty of a felony, punishable as provided in this section. Any female person who, in public or in private, commits or is a party to the commission of any act of gross indecency with a male person shall be guilty of a felony punishable as provided in this section. Any person who procures or attempts to procure the commission of any act of gross indecency by and between any male person and any female person shall be guilty of a felony punishable as provided in this section. Any person convicted of a felony as provided in this section shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or if such person was at the time of the said offense a sexually delinquent person, may be punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for an indeterminate term, the minimum of which shall be 1 day and the maximum of which shall be life.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 02:40
Why this incessant desire to link homosexual prejudice with religion? Having pored over many a dreary document in the archives of the Inquisition and their de jure "period of grace and repentance"..."confessions" admitting to diddling with the same sex usually resulted in a yawn from the inquisitors and a "punishment" of a few prayers and a promise to refrain from such in the future! Besides if you know anything about "male bonding" and teenagers (an admittedly non-religious lot) a profession of "love" in the locker-room would provoke a riot!
 
In a way, this focus on "Africa"  is but a means through which to express other prejudices whose enunciation are now too un-pc to utter. One has to recognize such particularly since it is intricately related with other political bombast. As distasteful as the concept of the "sex police" may be, all arguments from morality have to recognize the autonomy of individuall behavior within the construct of the private and the public. I do not hear any clamour for the legal protection of the hapless prostitute no matter the general popularity of Irma la douce. Elements of hypocrisy, anyone?
 
 


Edited by drgonzaga - 16 Dec 2009 at 02:41
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seko- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 03:01
Incessant? Not really. Just one thread. With regards to prejudice and religion they go hand in hand. Diddling is one thing but getting killed over it is another. Africa may be the brunt of newsworthy lambast today (I'm sure Chrach or Pinguin can get back to speed and reek havoc with other territories as well) yet tomorrow may bring other issues to the forefront. Maybe prostitution too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Dec 2009 at 03:11
Seko, discrimination and prejudice are two distinct premises. One can be addressed as a "failure at law" while the other is but a reflection of social (or community) attitudes. Everyone, including homosexuals, will voice their prejudices as you very well know, but if we are to delve into the owrld of the de jure then the matter becomes far more complex in terms of political rights and social privileges.
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