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The Logan Act

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toyomotor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Logan Act
    Posted: 07 Feb 2018 at 01:27
Quote from Wikipedia   

The Logan Act (enacted January 30, 1799) is a United States federal law that criminalizes negotiation by unauthorized persons with foreign governments having a dispute with the United States. The intent behind the Act is to prevent unauthorized negotiations from undermining the government's position.[2] The Act was passed following George Logan's unauthorized negotiations with France in 1798, and was signed into law by President John Adams on January 30, 1799. The Act was last amended in 1994, changing the penalty for violation from "fined $5,000" to "fined under this title"; this appears to be the only amendment to the Act.[2] Violation of the Logan Act is a felony.

Only two people have ever been indicted on charges of violating the Act,[3] one in 1802 and the other in 1852.[4] Neither was convicted of violating the Act.[4]

It would be of interest if the US Supreme Court were to be lobbied on the above, with regard         

 to the allegations of Russian interference in the last Presidential Election and the involvement by 

people on Trumps campaign staff.


I know that the Logan Act refers to "negotiation by unauthorized persons with foreign governments having a dispute with the United States". Well it could hardly be argued that Russia doesn't have a dispute with the US, and if it's proven that Russia did interfere in the election, and that Trump or members of his staff colluded with the Russians, I suggest that would more than infer at least an attempt to undermine the US government-ongoing into the future, and would, IMHO, make the election results void.


I don't know what legal mechanics would come into play if the election results were to be declared void (on the basis of Russian interference) but no doubt the problem could be handled by holding a new election. Let the Heads of Agencies carry on with their work, both houses grant supply(finances) in the interim and all else would fall into place.


Is it possible that such a set of circumstances could occur-dependent of course on the outcome of the Mueller probe?

 OR, would it more likely be swept under the carpet?




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franciscosan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2018 at 02:43
No, I think that the only time an election would be declared invalid is if the voting was rigged.  In other words, false votes were reported and confirmed.  A vote is valid regardless of how the voter got to it.  Did Russia influence the voting, maybe, probably, but there is no way to qualify it, or at least no way that can unambiguously qualify it, not open to debate.

I am surprised that the Democrats are not crying about the electoral college.  I was also surprised that Hillary Clinton did not play the calculus game of figuring out how to get the requisite _electoral_ college votes to win.  She was arrogant to count on the popular vote (which she won) covering the necessary electoral college votes.

Joe Biden as a congressman, tried to go down to Nicaragua to negotiate with the Sandinistas.  The President is responsible for foreign policy.  Reagan let him talk himself blue down there, and Ortega showed him every courtesy.  But after some time, it was clear that he (Biden) had no power, no influence on foreign policy and he had to give up and come back.  But, he could have been legally hassled for what he did, of course the law has never really been used, and so it is not clear he could have been convicted.

A friend who was a foreign relations major said that Biden has weighed in on every foreign relations matter for the last 30 years, and _never_ been right.  I think his attempted private negotiations with the Sandinistas are part of that.  His views on Afghanistan are too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2018 at 05:16
Quote No, I think that the only time an election would be declared invalid is if the voting was rigged.  In other words, false votes were reported and confirmed.  A vote is valid regardless of how the voter got to it.  Did Russia influence the voting, maybe, probably, but there is no way to qualify it, or at least no way that can unambiguously qualify it, not open to debate.

1. Is a vote really valid if it's obtained by fraud or by coercion?

2. I was basing my comments on the eventuality that Mueller found evidence of Russian collusion with Trump or his team.

Nothing at all to do with Joe Biden, the Sandinistas or Hilary C.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 2018 at 21:59
The fact that the law has never been used even in cases where it could have been against political opponents (Reagan admin. against Biden), means that it would probably not be used now, even if Mueller comes up with evidence of "collusion" (which in itself is not illegal.)
There are legal definitions of "fraud" and "coercion," neither of which probably apply to this case.  There are not precedents to large scale manipulation of media (internet), which is what the Russians are suspected of doing.  But in any case, the assumption is that people are smart enough to choose, even with Russia playing some games.  I am sure that there are some liberal urban elites that would love to say that the people can't make the right decision, but these are the same people who wax poetic about the revolt of the masses.  It sucks when _your_ revolution comes, and you are on the wrong side.

Two things that can happen.
1) Impeachment, but only if the Democrats get the Senate, or something exceptionally egregious happens that a Republican Senate cannot ignore.
2)Jared Kushner or other family members get entangled and Trump is forced to step down in order to save his family from prosecution.

I don't think Mueller can directly prosecute President Trump, but he can set the stage for impeachment, and other (family involved) prosecutions.  But, I don't claim to know that for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 03:08
Quote The fact that the law has never been used even in cases where it could have been against political opponents (Reagan admin. against Biden), means that it would probably not be used now, even if Mueller comes up with evidence of "collusion" (which in itself is not illegal.)

From Dictionary.com 
Quote col·lu·sion
[k uhloo-zh uhn]
NOUN
1.
a secret agreement, especially for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; conspiracySome of his employees were acting in collusion to rob him.

Collusion is conspiracy by another name. I dare say that within the Criminal Statutes of the USA there is a crime of Conspiracy. One example that comes to mind is The RICO Act, where conspiring with others to comitt a crime (in this case a group or a gang of people i.e The Mafia) is a felony.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb 2018 at 21:52
Well it is good that we have that straightened out, if it says so in dictionary.com, it must also be so in the American legal system....  No, toyomotor, I venture to guess that "collusion" has _no_ legal status as a term in the American legal system.  You can say someone may be "guilty" of collusion, and that is probably not slander.  Not in the way you might say someone is guilty of murder and be accused of slander.  There are crimes of conspiracy and those things have legal definitions and precedents defining them.  Our opinions don't really count as far defining whether or how those things are applicable.  Some of us lowly peasants might say "conspiracy" but that doesn't mean anything compared to the working it out in a court of law.
toyomotor, we (you and I) don't know the law (I would venture to guess that American law is the most complex in the world), and we don't know the facts.  It might be tempting to convict Trump in the court of public opinion, but I suggest we wait and see how the Mueller investigation comes out.  We should support the Mueller investigation, not because it will conform to our prejudices, we should recognize it may well not, in whole, or in part.  We should support the Mueller investigation because that is the proper procedure for clearing up this matter.  If Trump dismisses Mueller, then it should be understood the proper way of handling such things has been circumvented, and Trump should be condemned for that and because of that it should be understood that without the output of the Mueller investigation, it is true that perhaps Trump cannot be condemned, but neither can he be exonerated.  That is when would have a "Constitutional crisis."


Edited by franciscosan - 08 Feb 2018 at 21:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 2018 at 02:35
Quote toyomotor, we (you and I) don't know the law

Well, after more than 30 years enforcing the law, I'd say I have a very good grasp of the Westminster Legal System, upon which both the USA and Australia have based theirs.

In the US, the word collusion may not be mentioned as a felony, but, as I said, collusion is conspiracy by another name.

From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collusion

Quote Definition of Collusion:secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose.

From https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/collusion
Quote
Secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy in order to deceive others.


Also see https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/collusion/

What more do I need to post to make you see that conspiracy and collusion are interchangeable?






Edited by toyomotor - 09 Feb 2018 at 02:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 00:24
I think that I am not making myself clear.

I don't know the law (as I have said), but I do know that talking heads discussing the law on television say that "collusion is not a crime."  So you can say that collusion is conspiracy, and conspiracy is a crime and therefore collusion is a crime.  But legally in the United States (apparently) that is not so.  That is, according to experts in the news media, not according to me.  So you can site the Oxford English Dictionary, or whatever, that does not make it so in the United States legal code.  You are looking at a popular or common definition, they (I assume) know US law.  One thing does not have to be the same thing as the other.

Unfortunately, the United States legal code has grown so massive that nobody can possibly learn all of it.  The ancient Greeks believed in writing out laws on stone so that all could learn them.  Even if the laws were "unfair" to some people, at least they could learn "what is what" or where they stood in their society.  One ancient Greek city had a law that for any new legal proposals, the innovator had to propose the law with a noose around their neck, standing on a stool.  That way others could immediately kick out the stool if they did not like it.  Needless to say, Greek cities were very legally conservative and legal innovators were, in at least some cities, not so common.

What I am saying is that your equation of collusion and conspiracy might make sense, but that does not mean it reflects a legal reality in the United States.  Talking heads on news shows talk about possible collusion in the Trump campaign, but they also remind people that "collusion" is not in itself illegal.  I don't know what their definition of collusion is, but I assume that they know what they are talking about, otherwise they would not be put forth as an expert.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 01:34
Quote I think that I am not making myself clear.

AS MUD!!

Frank,I think you're missing the point of what I'm saying, completely.

OK, one last try.

US law, you tell me, doesn't make collusion a crime/felony.

But if people collude to commit a crime/felony, under US law they could be charged with conspiracy, which is  a crime/felony in the US.

E.g Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Justice, Conspiracy to Import  Drugs or Firearms, etc. etc.

As I said earlier, look at The RICO Act as an example of US legislation against conspiracy in action. You don't have to actually commit a crime to be charged under RICO, if you were part of the collusion or conspiracy to commit a crime, you can be convicted. And many Mafia Dons and soldiers have been.

And that's from one of your own US legal web sites.

Also-see

Quote Understanding Conspiracy Charges - HG.org
https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=23403
When two or more people make a plan to commit a criminal act, they are guilty of conspiracy
It only takes one action on behalf of one of the actors to further such crime, for any of the conspirators.


Edited by toyomotor - 10 Feb 2018 at 01:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote franciscosan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 03:40
I'm not a legal eagle.  But, again, legal eagles on television say that collusion _in itself_ is not a crime.  It is something that journalists say to make someone sound guilty.  Or rather, they are probably something to say that is emotionally or conceptually descriptive, but it does not in the US have a legal meaning, and so therefore they cannot get in trouble for slander.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 2018 at 06:09
I GIVE UP!!
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