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The most famous black Russian

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AksumVanguard View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:


His name was Ibrahim. Abram was just a Russian equivalent of that Muslim name. Yes, Eritreans and Ethiopians like to to say that Gannibal was of their own. But there is no enough evidence for that.


There was an important 16th century figure by the name of Ahmed Ibn Ibrihim Al- Ghazi with  Harrarian or Somlian background There was at least several different versions and spellings to his name  some of them being"Mohammad Ibn Ibrihim Al Ghazi, "Mohhamed Gragn","Ahmed Gragn", "Ahmed Gurey"," Mohhamed Abram -al Ghazi",and so on. People who are familiar with this figure know what I mean.Abram is used in East Africa,Nonetheless so is Ibrihim.

Secondly if your are familiar with name classifying of Ethiopia ,Somlalia, Eritrea having five different versions of the name Abram Petrovich Gannibal, is distinctly an East African trait. Trust me.

As Zeila said there was not that much Grassroot Muslim movements such as the Fulani sweeping in West Africa at the time.These movements started gaining political sway in the 19th century. Around this time in the 17th century any slaves captured would of been sent into the bustling Atlantic Slave Trade not to East( West Asia). The african tribes who caught their rival "prisoners of war" sought the buyers of European colonial slavetraders as they paid more for captured prisoners of war.

Alot of Abyssnian did have slaves and they rarely sold them off. Slavery was not the equivalent as it was Abyssinian to other West African countries or Americas,but it existed.

Many merchants slave traders of the Ottomans did particpate in the trade and actually bought alot of slaves from East AFrica. Some of the East African Ras(ArchDukes) and Dejazmatches(Dukes) were however willing to sell to these merchants unfortunately.Many of them made it to the Ottoman lands,some could of even made it to Russia.

Basically an Ottoman retrieving a slave from West africa is like getting The British East Indian Company  sending Indian Spices through the Americas back to Europe.

I really don't see the relevance to pompous act  of" toasting a beer". I don't think the Leprachaun on a Lucky Charms  box is exactly Irish culture or Nathans Fraknfurter Hot Dog is indicative of Germanys contribution.

And in reguards Petrovich's name it is definitely a familiarity of East African as I said before.


Edited by AksumVanguard - 23 Aug 2009 at 03:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 16:35
Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:


His name was Ibrahim. Abram was just a Russian equivalent of that Muslim name. Yes, Eritreans and Ethiopians like to to say that Gannibal was of their own. But there is no enough evidence for that.


There was an important 16th century figure by the name of Ahmed Ibn Ibrihim Al- Ghazi with  Harrarian or Somlian background There was at least several different versions and spellings to his name  some of them being"Mohammad Ibn Ibrihim Al Ghazi, "Mohhamed Gragn","Ahmed Gragn", "Ahmed Gurey"," Mohhamed Abram -al Ghazi",and so on. People who are familiar with this figure know what I mean.Abram is used in East Africa,Nonetheless so is Ibrihim.

Secondly if your are familiar with name classifying of Ethiopia ,Somlalia, Eritrea having five different versions of the name Abram Petrovich Gannibal, is distinctly an East African trait. Trust me.

As Zeila said there was not that much Grassroot Muslim movements such as the Fulani sweeping in West Africa at the time.These movements started gaining political sway in the 19th century. Around this time in the 17th century any slaves captured would of been sent into the bustling Atlantic Slave Trade not to East( West Asia). The african tribes who caught their rival "prisoners of war" sought the buyers of European colonial slavetraders as they paid more for captured prisoners of war.

Alot of Abyssnian did have slaves and they rarely sold them off. Slavery was not the equivalent as it was Abyssinian to other West African countries or Americas,but it existed.

Many merchants slave traders of the Ottomans did particpate in the trade and actually bought alot of slaves from East AFrica. Some of the East African Ras(ArchDukes) and Dejazmatches(Dukes) were however willing to sell to these merchants unfortunately.Many of them made it to the Ottoman lands,some could of even made it to Russia.

Basically an Ottoman retrieving a slave from West africa is like getting The British East Indian Company  sending Indian Spices through the Americas back to Europe.

I really don't see the relevance to pompous act  of" toasting a beer". I don't think the Leprachaun on a Lucky Charms  box is exactly Irish culture or Nathans Fraknfurter Hot Dog is indicative of Germanys contribution.

And in reguards Petrovich's name it is definitely a familiarity of East African as I said before.
 
I'm not really capable of giving accurate comments to this. I can't 100% confirm that Gannibal was of East African origin, neither can I confirm that he was 100% West African.
 
I'm just saying that there are studies that prove that he likely had West African roots. This new approach has been presented in recent scientific publication on Gannibal that were published in Russia.
 
By contrast, a traditional version of his origins from Abyssinia has been recently criticized for the lack of definite evidence.
 
That's all I was trying to communicate.
 
As for the names, Ibrahim is a typical Muslim name that was used literally everywhere where Muslims lived, I, definitely, don't agree that the fact that Ahmed Ibn Ibrihim Al- Ghazi lived in East Africa can prove or disprove something regarding Gannibal.
 
And again, the name Abram, is just a Christian Russian equivalent of Ibrahim it was not given to Gannibal because it was used in East Africa.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 17:15
Originally posted by Prince of Zeila Prince of Zeila wrote:

Sarmat never claimed all was Honky dory in Russian society with regards to foreigners(of any shade) so all of this is just red herring. He made a topic about an interesting figure in Russian history who was of African descent. The equivalance would be Sarmat making a similar topic about Viktor Tsoi in the East Asian forum under the title ''the most famous Asian in Russian History'' and then people replying with comments about racism against Asians in Russia or stating so and so is more famous than Viktor himself, how is all of that relevant to the subject in question?. 
 
 
 
Yes, Prince of Zeila, that exactly what I meant.
 
To be honest, however, I don't understand Drgonzaga references to racism in Imperial Russia and Soviet Union.
 
Actually, in the Russian Empire, black people were treated rather with interest and curiosity than anything else. In fact, Pushkin was proud of his African heritage cause it gave him a sense of being a kind of "exotic."
 
Only by the end of the 19th century, Russian intellegentia was influenced by the ideas of "white man burden" that were coming from the West. Yet, this White Racism ideas didn't play any important role in the Russian intellectual life, neither Russian had interest in discussing them. Common Russians also rather treated Black people with curiosity and general attitude was very friendly.
 
There was a very famous story when the Russian seamen saved a black slave boy in the 1860th. A boy, who was given the name, Maksimka, was later brought to Kronstadt and was educated in the Russian navy school.
 
Also in the 19th century Russia was the only country that helped Ethiopia in its struggle with Italy. Russia even sent the medical team to Africa. Russian medics  saved many injured Ethiopian soldiers.
 
In the Soviet Union, the official policy of the equality of races played a very important role. Hundreds of thousands African students were educated in the USSR. Some Africans stayed in the USSR.
 
There was also an interesting phenomenon, when some African American families (with communist sympathies), mostly industiral specialist immigrated to the USSR from the USA.
 
I have also discovered that a first professional boxing school in the Soviet Uzbekistan was opened by an African American.
 
Of course, grassroote conflicts happened during the times of USSR.  But they were mostly separate insiginificant incidents. And the USSR was viewed quite positive in Africa.
 
By contrast, the current situation of treatment of foreigners in Russia is terrible and young African don't know much about Russia.
 
Anyway, the above remarks should be a part of a special thread. I opened this thread in order to discuss Abram Gannibal, not the general history of Africans in Russia.


Edited by Sarmat - 24 Aug 2009 at 21:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 18:56
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:


I'm not really capable of giving accurate comments to this. I can't 100% confirm that Gannibal was of East African origin, neither can I confirm that he was 100% West African.




I agree,and I understand,but alot of people would agree that Abram Gannibal was of East  African Origin also.So its basically all speculation.

There is a Russian Project with Eritrea so it is plausible that both countries believe him to have lived in the country once known as Eritrea..And with studies it would depend,on who you are consulting,for total definitive accuracy,which no scholar has full total proof of his genesis












 
Originally posted by sarmat sarmat wrote:


As for the names, Ibrahim is a typical Muslim name that was used literally everywhere where Muslims lived, I, definitely, don't agree that the fact that Ahmed Ibn Ibrihim Al- Ghazi lived in East Africa can prove or disprove something regarding Gannibal.
 
They're  2 points I was trying to make with the name Ahmed Ibrihim Al-Ghazi. Some historians in history record with the name Abram Gragn or Abram Al- Ghazi.  The name Abram was definitely used in East Africa. So as for Petrovich there is not total proof that Petrovich received the name Abram  because it was "Russian Christianized  variation".   The name Abram is also used in East Africa.


The second point is that Ibrihim is also an Abyssinian variation of Ibrihim,so not totally exclusive to Russia.

The 3rd point is that Abbsynian have at least five variations to their name,since they are over 70+ languages in the 16th century alone,this would be said because the country used to rule the Eastern Sudan,a part of Egypt(mainly southern portion),Northern Kenya,Eirtrea,and others.So they were vast number of cultures and tribes in Abyssnia which would mean different languages hence different variation for  names spelled and coined. Some names would be in  Amharic form, Tigranian influenced ,Afari influecned ,Guraginiya influenced ,Oromic influenced,and others. May I add that alot of the priestly class in Abyssinia recorded historical figures, and even Coptic,also some other incorporated Arabic elements as well as greek elements,as which many historical names in Abyissinia are derived from Greek names.

So the point was to show that Petrovich having five different variations does seem east african,its a joke that maybe Zeila would understand.
 

 

 
Originally posted by sarmat sarmat wrote:

 I, definitely, don't agree that the fact that Ahmed Ibn Ibrihim Al- Ghazi lived in East Africa can prove or disprove something regarding Gannibal.
 
I was trying to show on how Abyssinian figures, have different versions of their name written as with the case of Mohammed Ibrihim Al Ghazi. please do not get me confused,I never said he had any relations to Abram Petrovich.




Edited by AksumVanguard - 24 Aug 2009 at 21:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 19:20
I see. Thanks for your clarifications AksumVanguard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 19:54
The only reason why some  people claim that Gannibal is Ethiopean is religion. The notion that one of Russias greatest generals is actually muslim even if he was baptized isn't going to fly easy with some people. however, him being Ethiopean/Eritrean  makes perfect sense since this means he will be an Orthodox christian.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 20:17
But the fact that he originally was Muslims is very well established.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 20:31

That is why I said some people not all people.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 21:03
Originally posted by Al Jassas Al Jassas wrote:

The only reason why some  people claim that Gannibal is Ethiopean is religion. The notion that one of Russias greatest generals is actually muslim even if he was baptized isn't going to fly easy with some people. however, him being Ethiopean/Eritrean  makes perfect sense since this means he will be an Orthodox christian.
 
Al-Jassas
 
I find it difficult to accept that anyone would identify the Mereb Mellash in the 17th century with Abyssinian Christianity (which is certainly not Orthodox Christianity).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 21:37
While technically speaking Abyssinian Christianity is not Orthodox (it's in fact together with Armenian and Coptic church a part of Monophysite doctrine, that theologically is actually much more distant from Orthodox doctrine than let's say Catholic doctrine), it officially bears the name "Orthodox" and also has a lot of parallels in liturgy and rites with a "proper" Orthodox church.
 
Since the Russian emperors traditionally were regarded as "protectors" of Orthodox and Oriental (to which Abyssinian church belongs) Christians in the East, the same view was extended to Ethiopians as well. So, Ethiopian Christians in Emperial Russia were still regarded as kind of "brothers in Christ" despite all the theological problems. Here the question was rather political than theological.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AksumVanguard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 2009 at 22:09
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:


I see thanks for your clarifications AksumVanguard

No problem

Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:


While technically speaking Abyssinian Christianity is not Orthodox (it's in fact together with Armenian and Coptic church a part of Monophysite doctrine, that theologically is actually much more distant from Orthodox doctrine than let's say Catholic doctrine), it officially bears the name "Orthodox" and also has a lot of parallels in liturgy and rites with a "proper" Orthodox church.



Indeed,during the Zemane Mesafint in Ethiopia the Emperors would seek to get other Arch Bishops of other Orthodox Church families,such as the Coptic church in Egypt or that of Chaldean Chuirch in Syria.they would do this because sometimes the emperors were not on good terms with the patriarch. The  Ethiopian Tewahedo Church was probably established church with the 3rd , the 2nd would have to be the Armenian church.

Tewahedo Church still keeps the Monophysite doctrine but there are varied interpretations of it. In since the Tewahedo is a church of its own, many adherants may find themselves in cities,towns,or areas were they cannot go to a Tweheado church.So instead  they will actually attend other  Orthodox churches to suffice. I am an  Orthodox Member in Process and many of my fellow followers feel a kinship with the Orthodox family. Whether they are Chaldean,Nestorian,etc we can relate. Its also good to see that the Orthodox has a wide foray of cultures in its umbrella ,and they've also shared their hardships especially since alot of the Orthodox followers can be found non-christian countries.

Many Armenians and Ethiopian Orthodox followers have rewritten there doctrines for church's together in Jerusalem during different periods.



Edited by AksumVanguard - 25 Aug 2009 at 22:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Prince of Zeila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 00:15
Originally posted by AksumVanguard AksumVanguard wrote:


So the point was to show that Petrovich having five different variations does seem east african,its a joke that maybe Zeila would understand.
 
Not suprising considering how ethnically diverse the Horn of Africa is.
 
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:

 
Yes, Prince of Zeila, that exactly what I meant.
 
To be honest, however, I don't understand Drgonzaga references to racism in Imperial Russia and Soviet Union.
 
Actually, in the Russian Empire, black people were treated rather with interest and curiosity than anything else. In fact, Pushkin was proud of his African heritage cause it gave him a sense of being a kind of "exotic."
 
Only by the end of the 19th century, Russian intellegentia was influenced by the ideas of "white man burden" that were coming from the West. Yet, this White Racism ideas didn't play any important role in the Russian intellectual life, neither Russian had interest in discussing them. Common Russians also rather treated Black people with curiosity and general attitude was very friendly.
 
There was a very famous story when the Russian seamen saved a black slave boy in the 1860th. A boy, who was given the name, Maksimka, was later brought to Kronstadt and was educated in the Russian navy school.
 
Also in the 19th century Russia was the only country that helped Ethiopia in its struggle with Italy. Russia even sent the medical team to Africa. Russian medics  saved many injured Ethiopian soldiers.
 
In the Soviet Union, the official policy of the equality of races played a very important role. Hundreds of thousands African students were educated in the USSR. Some Africans stayed in the USSR.
 
There was also an interesting phenomenon, when some African American families (with communist sympathies), mostly industiral specialist immigrated to the USSR from the USA.
 
I have also discovered that a first professional boxing school in the Soviet Uzbekistan was opened by an African American.
 
Of course, grassroote conflicts happened during the times of USSR.  But they were mostly separate insiginificant incidents. And the USSR was viewed quite positive in Africa.
 
By contrast, the current situation of treatment of foreigners in Russia is terrible and young African don't know much about Russia.
 
Anyway, the above remarks should be a part of a special thread. I opened this thread in order to discuss Abram Gannibal, not the general history of Africans in Russia.
 
 
I have two uncles who studied in Russia in the 60/70s and they have nothing but good things to say about that country so i would agree with you, though like any other country in the world Russia also has it's flaws, but i think it's unfair to keep bringing it up in unrelated topics such as this one when the same is not done with let's say a topic about Barack Obama and the US. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 04:52
As a side note, the Soviets recruited a number of Black Americans as industrial instructors during the 1930s. These men were often left wing sympathizers and were also offered generous salaries to instruct Soviet Citizens in such subjects as advanced welding etc.
 
Most returned home when their contracts expired. A few, however, renewed their contracts in the Soviet Union. When the purges came, some were imprisoned or exiled after they were forced to renounce their U.S. citizenship. One man remained in the Soviet Union untill the early 1970s despite appeals to the U.S. embassy to recognize his U.S. citizenship. The U.S. Embassy, however, was in no rush to assist any stranded U.S. leftists, and especially not black leftists.  


Edited by Cryptic - 25 Aug 2009 at 04:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 16:28
There were actually tens of thousands of Americans both white and black that moved to the USSR in the 1920th and the 1920th many of them stayed for ever, including some black and mixed families.
 
The interesting thing is that some of their descendants made very brilliant careers in Russia.
 
The most famous of those is, perhaps, Elena Khanga, a very famous Russian TV-journalist. Her grandfarther Oliver Goden, an African-American was one of the founders of the modern cotton industry in the Soviet Uzbekistan.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 16:41
Originally posted by Sarmat Sarmat wrote:


The most famous of those is, perhaps, Elena Khanga, a very famous Russian TV-journalist. Her grandfarther Oliver Goden, an African-American was one of the founders of the modern cotton industry in the Soviet Uzbekistan.
Hm, I always thought that she had African origins because of her surname.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2009 at 16:53
Her father was African, mother American.
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