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The New Face of Pakistan

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Ramesh V.Naivaruni View Drop Down
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    Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 17:51
Since the recently concluded UNO we are seeing statements after statments from Pakistan foreign Minister asserting that they will have to re-look at their relationship with United States if there is a pressure on them to crack some of the militant outfits operating, infact she has cited that some of them are bred by United States.  She was almost threatning that Pakistan will lean towards China.
 
Is this the New Face of Pakistan, what will be the implication if there is a fall out in the United States Relationship with Pakistan and if the China will take Pakistan under their wings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2011 at 20:03
I don't believe there will be a fall out between Pakistan and the US. Ultimately, both countries have far too much to gain together.
 
If there is a fall out, I don't see this as being necessarily a bad thing for Pakistan either though. It would be a unifying influence, and the lack of aid money won't make a difference because most of it is taken through corruption anyway.
 
Pakistan has had a long positive relationship with China, and facilitated the thawing of US-China relations.
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The recent postures and subsequent action of intruding into Pakistani territory and drone attacks doesnt say everything is well.  The New face of Pakistan is asking United States to stop mis-adventures or they will re-look at what relationship that they would want with United States--- Pakistani Foreign Minister statement is amply sound and clear.
 
Brushing aside nothing will happen or can happen to United is something very notional, the reality is that both these countries have been party to so many joint crimes and they have bred multiple organisation which today have become terrorist because they are fighting their own master.
 
I feel in the changed scenario Pakistan is to United States is what Italy was to Germany during second world war, the reason behind this statement most of the terror groups are situvated in Pakistan and do have amply capability in terms of weapons etc. These groups with State players on board can trigger a war with neighbouring countries one miscalculated attempt can trigger into a full scale war, as there is a limit to patience of countries that other countires will stand,this same is depended on which party is in governance in India(becasue they are traditional rivals), the way Kargil occupation escalated it seemed it will go on to become a full scale war(3rd time) but for the mediation of United States.
 Similarly with the new equation with China they can fuel further trouble for India and Bangladesh on the borders which would lead to countries taking sides and eventually pull Untied states to be a party of either one of the group. 
 


Edited by Ramesh V.Naivaruni - 01 Oct 2011 at 17:23
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Note:  It was a little hard to read and understand, so the necessary edit was done. This edit by your friendly neighborhood moderator was done for clarity and ease of reading.  Just a friendly little reminder for members to recheck and edit their own posts. Thank you - Panther Smile


Words from Ms.Khar from the same source you have linked it ,the statement is quite bold and clear.

"Aware of some members of the United States congress encouraging the Obama administration to freeze or cut aid to Pakistan, the Pakistani foreign minister noted “And there's a general debate in your country about how much Pakistan is being assisted. I would like to share with you that this war has cost us $68 billion
 
 
The foreign minister said: “Lack of peace and security. This has a real effect on the life of every Pakistani - on the president of Pakistan, on the shopkeeper of Pakistan, on the girl what tries to go to school and who doesn't have school because we have to spend on more on operations on the Western borders. So, how are you able to ignore all these realities about where Pakistan is? The only thing I can say is that despite all of these efforts that Pakistan has made, the challenges are just still very daunting. What does that tell you? That tells you that you need to engage further, that you must not disengage.”

Meanwhile the New York Times reported on Thursday that President Obama’s top national security advisers met Tuesday to discuss familiar options — including unilateral strikes and a suspension of security assistance — intended to get Pakistan to fight militants more effectively. So far, the carrots and sticks have had little impact, American officials acknowledged.

The Haqqani network is an Islamist militia with a 30-year history of fighting foreign occupations of Afghanistan. In mid-September the network struck in the heart of Kabul, launching a 20-hour assault on the American embassy, NATO and other targets.

The Haqqani network is based in Pakistan’s North Waziristan region, part of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA), which border on Afghanistan. The border is porous. American officials say that the district capital, Miranshah, houses compounds used by the Haqqanis under the noses of Pakistani intelligence.

Pakistan angrily denies that it supports the Haqqanis, whom it po-facedly insists are based in Afghanistan, not Pakistan at all.

The London Economist says in an Afghan or Pakistani tribal context, Jalaluddin Haqqani , founder of the group, is a supremely successful guerrilla commander, once lauded by America for his services as a CIA-backed mujahid repelling the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Mr Haqqani, now said to be bedridden, was a minister for border and tribal affairs when the Taliban ruled Afghanistan. To their supporters in Afghanistan today, the Haqqanis are fighting an occupying force, just as they did the Soviets before, says Saifullah Mahsud, of the FATA Research Centre, an independent think-tank in Islamabad.

To the ISI, which has had a relationship with him since the 1970s, Jalaluddin Haqqani is a more reliable proxy than the Taliban ever were. Since Pakistan formally abandoned its support for the Taliban under great American pressure following the September 11th attacks, distrust has reigned on both sides. The Haqqani network has demonstrated its willingness to hit targets in Afghanistan that please Pakistan’s military men most—especially Indian ones, including its embassy, in 2008, and Indian construction companies.

The Haqqani and the Taliban are operationally separate, with the first handling eastern Afghanistan and the second focusing on the south. But the Haqqani network appears to recognize the Taliban leadership, based in the Pakistani city of Quetta, as the authority guiding the insurgency. If the Taliban reconciled with the government in Kabul, says Mr Haqqani’s son, Sirajuddin, not entirely convincingly, his group would too.

The Economist states it will probably hope to increase missile strikes in North Waziristan by its drone aircraft. The drone campaign has been less successful against the Haqqani than against other groups, especially al-Qaeda. Perhaps Pakistan does not share much intelligence on the Haqqanis. However, America will be pulling its front-line troops out of Afghanistan by the end of 2014. Pakistan will have to live with the jihadists it promotes."

- Asian Tribune -

While I know I just did a cut and paste job from the link that Doc has given, It is not balther but something very concrete development that is taking place, either the United States agrees to treat them as Allies and not slaves.





Edited by Panther - 03 Oct 2011 at 07:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 02:44
Please "clean up" that post so that it makes some sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Oct 2011 at 04:27
Copy paste is against CoC here. Your source is messed up!

New face of Pakistan? Which face do you mean? Pakistan has many faces. Now it just show its real untrustworthy villain face.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 07:19
Originally posted by Ramesh V.Naivaruni Ramesh V.Naivaruni wrote:

 
Is this the New Face of Pakistan, what will be the implication if there is a fall out in the United States Relationship with Pakistan and if the China will take Pakistan under their wings.


Meet the new face of Pakistan, same as the old face.

If China wants to take Pakistan under it's wings, who would want to stop such a thing? The US government and the US taxpayer would likely let out a big sigh of relief. Such a sad thing for me to say about a country i've lost a lot of respect for.  All that blaming and US bashing in Pakistani media was bound to have it's effect on me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 07:58
Pakistan wants a superpower support to keep Indians in bay; whoever gives this support is the new Pakistani master. Pakistan has to keep its radicals busy fighting American infidels or Indian Idol worshipers (holy jihad) Confused; otherwise, they rip the country apart. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 08:40
Originally posted by Harburs Harburs wrote:

Pakistan wants a superpower support to keep Indians in bay; whoever gives this support is the new Pakistani master. Pakistan has to keep its radicals busy fighting American infidels or Indian Idol worshipers (holy jihad) Confused; otherwise, they rip the country apart. 


The US has never been a master to Pakistan. In fact, that is just one of the reason the country is partially so messed up. Instead of looking inwards to find the problems that are currently plaguing them, they are projecting the blame outwards onto others.  Other than that, i can agree with your brief analysis.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 10:50
I am not saying they have to blame US for their failure (the chaotic society with corrupted officials and loose fanatic madrasas have nothing to do with US). Btw, Pakistan haven't been a faithful subordinate for anyone, but It had to follow some US orders to receive the US support which it made the US a master in many ways.

Now, China is leaning toward the middle east market as well as its resources just like Central Asia. Pakistan can act like a conduit for Chinese products and military presence. China has a naval base (apparently not military base) in south west Pakistan. With China moving to fill the power gap in Pakistan a new power game can begin between China and US and their proxies (Pakistan/India). The significance of this competition is that both parties and their allies have nukes.


Edited by Harburs - 03 Oct 2011 at 10:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Oct 2011 at 16:11

The US has never been a master to Pakistan, it has been an ally, and that is the very heart of the current issue.

The US expects Pakistan to sacrifice itself to help the US. The US is constantly irritated the Pakistan is not a faithful subordinate, and Pakistan is irritated that the Americans expect them to be.
Pakistan (and India) are not and will never be proxies to anyone. While they do not always act in the interests of the country, they are definitely acting in some sort of self-interest.
 
The war in Afghanistan is very difficult for the Pakistani army & gov because a very large number of Pakistanis, even if they don't support the Taliban, oppose a foriegn occupation of Afghanistan. Given the circumstances, the US should be far more grateful than it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 23:09
The United States has always been taking Pakistani support for granted, Intrusion into the military campus is because they thought they need no permission from this country.  The islamic republic is now asserting themselves to be recognised, they feel that they no longer has to bow to the dickats of the United States, the same sentiments reflective of the common man in the street.  I saw an Interview in NDTV wherein a question was asked to the commoner what they think about the killing of Osama bin laden, he was blunt enough that a terrorist should be killed but it should have been with the prior intimation to Pakistani and along with the local law keepers.
 
We all know that Osama bin laden would not have been alive right behind the army barraks if the Pakistani government would have wanted him to be dead, he got his extended life thanks to the Pakistani Establishment support and all this at the cost of US exchequer.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 23:24
Let's be outrageous, shall we? Pakistan is an abstraction that should never have become a state given that it's original premise revolved not around national or economic rationales but instead religion! That no one wishes to acknowledge that it is a failed state maintained solely by a military establishment that arbitrates between rival populist factions is stark reality, and it's continued existence depends entirely upon securing a patron to subsidize this military!
 
What can one say except "Ain't Pashtun politics, wunnerful?".
 
Try to explain the artificiality of Islamabad when juxtaposed to Karachi.


Edited by drgonzaga - 04 Oct 2011 at 23:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 2011 at 23:31
This is something everybody will accept Doctor, post 50s I could not see a failed republic than Pakistan both in democratically and otherwise. You statement is cent percent correct. Even United States used them more for the purpose of their War plans in Afganistan than for trade purpose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 22:03
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

The US has never been a master to Pakistan, it has been an ally, and that is the very heart of the current issue.

The US expects Pakistan to sacrifice itself to help the US. The US is constantly irritated the Pakistan is not a faithful subordinate, and Pakistan is irritated that the Americans expect them to be.
Pakistan (and India) are not and will never be proxies to anyone. While they do not always act in the interests of the country, they are definitely acting in some sort of self-interest.
 
The war in Afghanistan is very difficult for the Pakistani army & gov because a very large number of Pakistanis, even if they don't support the Taliban, oppose a foriegn occupation of Afghanistan. Given the circumstances, the US should be far more grateful than it is.


That is the general consensus on the Pakistani side, hardly been a dissenting view that dares raise it's voice, others wise if they do, it's curtains for them. Just like what happened to Pakistani journalist Sayed Saleem Shahzad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Harburs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2011 at 04:47
Pakistani militants assassinated one of Afghanistan top clergymen and leaders, Mr Rabbani who was chairman of Afghanistan peace talk council just very recently. Mr Rabbani was former president of Afghanistan and leader of Northern Alliance who fought Pakistani-backed Taliban regime.

We had US military commanders condemning Pakistani government aids to Haqqani terrorist group just a while ago (certainly Pakistani officials deny that), and now this came up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-15187069

Afghan intelligence officials reported about a plot to kill Afghani president Hamid Karzai by Haqqani group. Apparently, they have arrested six militants who have been trained in Pakistan. 

Someone is trying hard to make enemies and jeopardize the region, I guess they are short of cash or need more attention.
 
@ OAH, Pakistani government behavior is full of contradictions. They say they help and at the same time they help the enemy. I hate to say this, but Iranian regime has some dignity compares to Pakistani regime. Iranian regime despises western governments specially US, and they show it in every occasion.


Edited by Harburs - 08 Oct 2011 at 00:44
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Ah!  How apt the words of the monster ( the adam of his labour)   to  Victor Frankestien: 

Why did you form a monster so hideous that even you turned from me in disgust?

Unfeeling hearless creator! You had endowed me with perceptions and passions and then cast me abroad an object for the scorn and horror of mankind.

You my creator, abhor me; what  hope can I gather from your fellow creatures who owe me nothing.

You can blast my other passions, but revenge remains-revenge, henceforth dearer than light or food!

Yet you, my creator detest and spurn me, thy creature to whom thou art bound by ties only dissoluble by the annihilation of one of us. 

I will revenge my injuries ; if I cannot inspire love, I will cause fear and chiefly towards you my archenemy because my creator, do I swear inextinguishable hatred.

Remember that I have power, you believe yourself miserable, but I can make you so wretched that the light of day will be hateful to you.  You are my creator, but I am your master , obey!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2011 at 19:38

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

That is the general consensus on the Pakistani side, hardly been a dissenting view that dares raise it's voice, others wise if they do, it's curtains for them. Just like what happened to Pakistani journalist Sayed Saleem Shahzad.

Dissenting views? Ever read a Pakistani newspaper? It's so dissenting it's hard to know what where the line they might have towed even is.
Pakistan is no repressive regime. Pakistan's problem is an oversupply of freedom not an undersupply.

Some people in Pakistan dissent from the Government line so hard they back the otherside in a war.

Quote Pakistani militants assassinated one of Afghanistan top clergymen and leaders, Mr Rabbani who was chairman of Afghanistan peace talk council just very recently. Mr Rabbani was former president of Afghanistan and leader of Northern Alliance who fought Pakistani-backed Taliban regime.

Rabbani was a warlord, I'm sure there were plently of good reasons to kill him, I don't know what they were but old political leaders on the subcontinent are always getting killed off. I wouldn't read too much into this.
Describing the branch of the Taliban now called the Haqqani network as Pakistani militants is a bit rich. Apparently they draw support and organise from South Waziristan, and as everyone must know by now the tribes there (such as the Mehsud) declared support for the Taliban from the very beginning. Nothing to do with the Pakistani government. Nothing the Pakistani government can really do about it either.
And this is all assuming that the 'Haqqanis' killed Rabbani in the first place, something I am quite skeptical of, because killing him plays into the 'don't negotitate with Taliban' line far too well. I think it's far more likely that he was killed in order to scare the Americans off changing sides in the Afghan war (since the US policy over the last year has been to reconcile with the Taliban in order to form a more stable govt and facilitate a withdraw of their forces).
I also believe that dividing the Haqqanis from other Taliban is a very good method of splitting the western public into the perception of 'Good Taliban' and 'Bad Taliban'. The "Good" Taliban can then be incorporated into the gov while the 'Bad Taliban' (ie Haqqanis) can be seen to be defeated. This will allow the US to claim victory.
Quote @ OAH, Pakistani government behavior is full of contradictions. They say they help and at the same time they help the enemy. I hate to say this, but Iranian regime has some dignity compares to Pakistani regime. Iranian regime despises western governments specially US, and they show it in every occasion.


Different people in Pakistan support different sides. That should be obvious. The government has decided to back the US and as a result has alienated many of their countrymen on both sides of the imaginary border.
The Irani government does have more dignity than the Pakistani one. For a start, the Iranis can control their people! Who wouldn't trade Zadari for Ahmedinejad?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2011 at 23:15
It is not just on one subject people have divergent views within Pakistan, you could find it in all their aspect of governance.  First mistake that the free Pakistan did was to have a unified command for their Army and that is where they erred and all politicos should take the consent of the Army before any decision.  In contrast to it In India we have three different wings with seperate cheif and domains, safe for political establishment, any day Army was under the control of government.
 
I think the senior politicos should sit and introspect and arrive at a concensus as to which direction they should go, unfortunately Pakistan Political party doesnt even have charismatic leaders like Bhutto, and Benazir.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2011 at 09:38
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:


Dissenting views? Ever read a Pakistani newspaper? It's so dissenting it's hard to know what where the line they might have towed even is.
Pakistan is no repressive regime. Pakistan's problem is an oversupply of freedom not an undersupply.

Yes, i do read up on Pakistani news. Not only that but, also the tons of Pakistani comments all across the web. Hence my distress at Pakistan being able to get it's act together.  Rather than look at the internal mechanics that is driving the country nearer to anarchy, seemingly it is much easier too blame the problems on external forces rather than some of the major players strategy in Pakistan of playing both sides of the fence. Cooperation between the US and Pakistan, seems to have gone down the drain in favor of exerting a control over Afghanistan that isn't going to lead to any success for Pakistan, but instead anarchy, death and more war, this time within Pakistan's borders.

Quote

Some people in Pakistan dissent from the Government line so hard they back the otherside in a war.


Indeed they do, only because they believe in the ridiculous propaganda that the Pakistan government is the puppet for the US, which is it's main enemy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2011 at 14:17
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Omar al Hashim wrote:

Originally posted by Panther Panther wrote:

That is the general consensus on the Pakistani side, hardly been a dissenting view that dares raise it's voice, others wise if they do, it's curtains for them. Just like what happened to Pakistani journalist Sayed Saleem Shahzad.

Dissenting views? Ever read a Pakistani newspaper? It's so dissenting it's hard to know what where the line they might have towed even is.
Pakistan is no repressive regime. Pakistan's problem is an oversupply of freedom not an undersupply.

 
You cannot ever have an oversupply of freedom. Pakistan's problem are because it has freedom, its because they have the illusion of it.
 
Nothing like the chaos we see now existed under Musharraf and press back then (especially in the latter years) were far more free than under the "democratic" rule of the Zamindars. Pakistan should have done what India did 40 years ago and destroyed the Zamindars during one of its coups but they didn't, in fact under Zia their power reached new levels and this is where the problem is.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ramesh V.Naivaruni Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2011 at 23:25
The political parties are so headless that every one of them turns up to pay their respect to the Army General for their patronage and blessings and if they dont they are hanged. The Bhuttoo and Benezir were very popular leader, infact during her last days she had a huge following, it was difficult for the Army to control her because of her popularity both within Pakistan & outside and her death happened in a questionable circumstances, while her father was sent to the gallows.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 2012 at 23:25
The relation between Pakistan and America is friendly from a long past. If the relation is broken then it's  because of America's steep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2012 at 22:49
I feel warred about that & share with u similar. 
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